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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by denise528 on September 5, 2004, at 10:10:36
I keep thinking about trying ECT because I feel as though I have nothing to lose apart from my memory but I'd hate to think it could make my depression worse?
I know there are people on this board who've had ECT, did anyone find it made their depression worse?
Denise
Posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 10:58:56
In reply to Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by denise528 on September 5, 2004, at 10:10:36
I think in general there is no evidence to suggest that ECT can make depression worse.
If, however, you fail ECT, many people seem to think that their options are extinguished and that type of thinking may make depression worse.
But, if ECT fails by itself then it is quite possible that medications may work better. ECT can resensitize certain receptors which may make AD's work better.
Linkadge
Posted by iris2 on September 5, 2004, at 11:52:49
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 10:58:56
> But, if ECT fails by itself then it is quite possible that medications may work better. ECT can resensitize certain receptors which may make AD's work better.
>Can you explain this better to me? ECT was tried twice on me with no lift in my depression. But some medications have stopped working, taken long after the ECT. Could ECT help this?
What are the long-term effects on memory of ECT? I ask because my memory is so poor and no pdoc will give me any kind of definitive answer as to whether it is the depression itself, benzodiazopines, other meds and/or ECT? I had 6 sets done bilaterally and 12 done at another time unilaterally.
The main reason I think it has had an effect on my memory long term is because my grandmother had ECT about 60 years ago and my father has told me how it had continued to affect her memory ongoing and her whole life. Things that happened long after the ECT.
I thought that memory impairment from ECT was short term and did not stay with you after the treatments. In other words there would be no effect on remembering anything short term or long term that happened after the ECT was over?
Hope someone might put this memory question of mine to rest once and for all. If I know the truth I can deal with it.
irene
Posted by verne on September 5, 2004, at 15:36:37
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse? » linkadge, posted by iris2 on September 5, 2004, at 11:52:49
From what I was told and learned when I was being scheduled for ECT was that it had changed a lot over the years and did a lot less "collateral damage". That I would only be out for a matter of seconds and all they were doing was causing me to have a seizure.
I was all set for a month's worth but backed out at the last minute so I can't speak from experience on the memory issue. The doctors, though, had reassured me the impact would be minimal - certainly not as bad as in the early days of ECT.
Verne
Posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 16:09:37
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by verne on September 5, 2004, at 15:36:37
ECT can make AD's work again. The procedure that your mother had will be different from the procedure given today.
Your mothers memory problems may have been related to the ECT, or they may have just been memory problems attributed to the ECT. It is hard to know.
Linkadge
Posted by Sebastian on September 5, 2004, at 18:36:17
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse? » linkadge, posted by iris2 on September 5, 2004, at 11:52:49
I had a lot of ECT in '97, I still don't remember a lot of stuff.
Posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 19:16:04
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by Sebastian on September 5, 2004, at 18:36:17
Was the ECT worth it? Did it work? How long did it last?
Linkadge
Posted by Denise1904 on September 6, 2004, at 6:46:59
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 10:58:56
Hi Linkadge,
Thanks for the response. I guess my options aren't really that limited right now. 40mg of Seroxat is helping me now in that I feel life is bearable and that at least I can get through it rather than "how am I going to get through another day, nevermind the rest of my life" and when people say "life is too short" I don't think no it's not "it's far too long".
But in the meantime I know deep down what a mess I am without the 40mg of Seroxat and don't get me wrong I'm really grateful that it's working, I just wish there was some way I could get to a lower dose without feeling bad again and was hoping ECT would do that. I just hate the thought that me without medication is sooooo bad.
If I thought, well without medication I'd feel low but not suicidal it wouldn't be as bad if you know what I mean.I want to make progress but at the moment am just in limbo land, probably be ok to spend the rest of my life on 40mg of Seroxat, can work etc but I know deep down the problem (whatever it is) is still there.
Denise
Posted by linkadge on September 6, 2004, at 8:26:18
In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by Denise1904 on September 6, 2004, at 6:46:59
40 mg of paxil is not unheard of. Another thing to remember is that oftentimes a high dose of one med works just as well as a low dose of another.
I needed a high dose 45mg of remeron to get what I did from 10g of celexa.
I needed 40mg of celexa to get what I got from 25mg of zoloft.
Another thing to consider is that everybody's metabolosm is different. You may have a fast metabolism and need 40mg to get the blood level that someone else gets at 10mg.
You could try ECT, but if paxil is keeping you floating then I'd stick with it.
One last option is to try some of the therapies that help to restore receptor sensitivity.
Omega 3 is great for plumping up the serotonin receptors and helping them be more efficiant. Another is inositol. Exercise too helps you to grow more serotonin receptors. There are many things that may help you to reduce your dose in the future,
But tacking the suicidal ideation is obviously the first step.
Linkadge
Posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2004, at 9:44:02
In reply to Q for sebastian, posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 19:16:04
It was worth it. It knocked out a whole lot of emotions at once. Sort of wish I had them. But it got me back out into living again.
Posted by iris2 on September 6, 2004, at 10:07:23
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 16:09:37
Linkadge,
Thanks for the information. I just am the kind of person who needs a definitive answer, even if there is nothing to change about it.
irene
Posted by jerrympls on September 6, 2004, at 16:50:05
In reply to Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by denise528 on September 5, 2004, at 10:10:36
> I keep thinking about trying ECT because I feel as though I have nothing to lose apart from my memory but I'd hate to think it could make my depression worse?
>
> I know there are people on this board who've had ECT, did anyone find it made their depression worse?
>
>
>
> Denise
>
>Hi Denise-
I had 8 treatments of ECT about 7 years ago and for about a month I felt a little better. However, when that wore off my depression got worse and I started having panic attacks - something I had not had before tthe ECT. It really wiped out my memory too.
However, it can really help some people. It's hard to tell.
Jerry
Posted by denise528 on September 7, 2004, at 16:06:04
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse? » denise528, posted by jerrympls on September 6, 2004, at 16:50:05
Thanks Jerry,
That doestn't sound too good! Well I already have awful anxiety without the Seroxat, don't really think it could be much worse although you never know do you?
I hope your feeling better now than your previous post and I hope you do have something (no matter what it is) that gets you out of that hole.
When I saw your post saying "That's it I'm done" I was just packing up to leave work for the day and I thought wouldn't it be nice to be able to say that, so I never wrote back because I could empathise with you and wouldn't exactly have been able to give you much encouragement other than to say, can I join you? :-)Anyway glad you never did anything but it must be so frustrating, especially after having that VNS device implanted and that not working. Maybe you should try and get onto a trial for a different type of drug? Don't they have any ideas why you're not responding to anything?
Denise
Posted by denise528 on September 7, 2004, at 16:12:30
In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by linkadge on September 6, 2004, at 8:26:18
Thanks Linkadge, yes I know 40mg of Seroxat is not unheard of it's just that 4 years ago I only had to take 20mg and it had a much more robust affect, as did 75mg of Prothiaden and as did 40mg of Zooloft (Sertraline). Now I take 40 and it doestn't have half the effect it did. So makes me wonder what else has gone wrong down the line.
The last time I suffered from depression I didn't have any suicidal thoughts so I know I'm worse now? Just not sure why? Again nothing actually happened to all intense purposes I've got everything going for me and no problems but I guess a Psychologist would just tell me I was in denial.
Yes, I will try excercise which I was doing before I got depressed and which didn't exactly hold it off. Makes me wonder what is the point though of doing any of these things, when you can take care of yourself, excersise regularly, eat sensibly, sleep properly and this horrible thing still comes back to haunt you.
Thanks again for your advice and sorry to sound negative I am really grateful that the 40mg of Seroxat was helping just wish it would help as much as it used to and with less of it.
Denise
Posted by krisanon on September 7, 2004, at 16:51:22
In reply to Q for sebastian, posted by linkadge on September 5, 2004, at 19:16:04
> Was the ECT worth it? Did it work? How long did it last?
>
>
> LinkadgeI had ECT several years ago and it saved my life. I got back my thoughts and real emotions and was able to live a full life. It seemed to break the cycle of extreme depression that I was living with. I did have memory loss, but in the long term it was mostly confined to the months during and before my most intensive ECT treatments (and I don't really want to remember that time anyway!). There are still pieces of my history that are missing, but they can still return if someone describes a time or place to me. My pdoc also said that the depression itself along with my various meds could be hurting the memory too. It is a sacrifice that I don't regret. As for how long it lasted--the intensive treatment lasted about 2 months for me with a year of maintenance treatments. But that is a lot (due to the severity of the depression) and most people just have a few months, including maintenance treatments which are once a week or once a month as you wean off the treatment. Good luck whatever you choose.
Posted by T-rotten on September 7, 2004, at 17:44:10
In reply to Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by denise528 on September 5, 2004, at 10:10:36
> I keep thinking about trying ECT because I feel as though I have nothing to lose apart from my memory but I'd hate to think it could make my depression worse?
>
> I know there are people on this board who've had ECT, did anyone find it made their depression worse?
>
>>
> Denise
>
>About memory issue, I read in more than one place that the thyroid hormones (T3 or triiodothyronine, brand cytomel)have really good effects in memory issue. Piracetam can help too(very weaker than T3).
I am thinking in doing ECT too to at least make tha ADs fullfill its effects again. I dont know how much sessions I should do.
Tanks.
Posted by iris2 on September 8, 2004, at 8:33:33
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by denise528 on September 7, 2004, at 16:06:04
Jerry,
I am intersted in this proceedure. Can you tell me a little about your experience if you are up to it?
irene
Posted by Denise1904 on September 8, 2004, at 8:41:16
In reply to Re: Q for sebastian, posted by krisanon on September 7, 2004, at 16:51:22
Hi,
I'm glad to hear it helped you, do you know what type you had, was it bilateral?
Also, what type of depression did you have, I heard it is mainly used for Psychotic Depression?
And how severe were you?
Denise
Posted by Denise1904 on September 8, 2004, at 8:56:31
In reply to To memory issue., posted by T-rotten on September 7, 2004, at 17:44:10
Hi,
Thanks for this info, I'll add it to my info on ECT. Do you have to take this before you have the ECT Treatment?
Denise
Posted by iris2 on September 8, 2004, at 11:50:52
In reply to Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by denise528 on September 5, 2004, at 10:10:36
Denise,
> I keep thinking about trying ECT because I feel as though I have nothing to lose apart from my memory but I'd hate to think it could make my depression worse?
>
> I know there are people on this board who've had ECT; did anyone find it made their depression worse?I had ECT twice. Six bilateral ones and several years later 12 lateral. They did not help. The first sessions got me very angry and agitated so they discontinued them. The second time I lost some memory and did become calmer for a short amount of time but they did nothing for my depression.
I have an aunt and grandmother who both had them and from my father's description of the results they both got a lot of relief from their depressions.
I have been in the hospital many times on the psch. ward. I have observed several different people getting ECT I observed dramatic changes in people several times and they were very happy when it was over and very depressed before them. That is why I tried them twice myself. I only remember one person beside myself who did not get some relief form ECT. I never kept in touch with any of these people so I do not know how long the ECT continued to alleviate depression after the treatments were done. I did meet a two people that came in every year or more for ECT on a regular basis. I was never sure I observed any real change in the two people I saw doing this.
My memory is terrible and I am not sure what to attribute it to. Every pdoc I ask tells me it is not likely to be from the ECT but from my depression and the benso's I take. Do not know, wish I did.
My father did say that his mother had memory problems after her ECT, forever. I do not know how reliable his observations were about that as he was quite young at the time and it was over 60 years ago so the ECT is very different now.
These are my experiences and observations. Hope they help some. Everyone here helps me so much I try to do what little I can.
irene
Posted by djinnicht on September 8, 2004, at 15:44:13
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse? » denise528, posted by iris2 on September 8, 2004, at 11:50:52
someone needs to tell the original poster about antidepressant *poop-out*. and why no mention of the vastly less noxious (to the brain) rTMS/TMS?
have you been given a trial on parnate? i have found that usually patients have not! yet, doctors are willing to fry their brains with electricity instead because they are 'afraid' of the MAOI to this day.
i think ECT is possibly the worse mistake anyone could ever make in their lives. google it, what you find are 'ECT survivor' pages, rather than 'ECT fanclub' pages. most of the pro-ECT lit is written by one max fink, who owns the company that manufactures the machinery. geez.
as the surge of electricity hits your brain with enough force to blow thru the blood brain barrier and heat shock proteins and excitotoxins drown brain tissues, hey, want to see the video of a donkey or sheep i think it is getting ECTs that got the procedure approved?
N/V yet?
i've had them. i lost 30 years of memory, my one daughter's entire childhood, and have *antecedent* memory loss and FRONTAL LOBE SYNDROME.
its just _so_ groovy.
when my brilliant, then young, Pdoc saw the horror of it all, he never allowed it again.
he has patients from 7 states as testament to his clinical genius.
***
and no, it didn't even work.
dJ
Posted by iris2 on September 8, 2004, at 15:59:10
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by djinnicht on September 8, 2004, at 15:44:13
I've had ECT twice. It did not help me. I did see it help other people though. I never seem to find any REAL information about it. I have terrible memory problems. They are ongoing.
What did you mean by:antecedent* memory loss and FRONTAL LOBE SYNDROME.irene
Posted by djinnicht on September 9, 2004, at 2:24:41
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse? » djinnicht, posted by iris2 on September 8, 2004, at 15:59:10
> I've had ECT twice. It did not help me. I did see it help other people though. I never seem to find any REAL information about it. I have terrible memory problems. They are ongoing.
> What did you mean by:antecedent* memory loss and FRONTAL LOBE SYNDROME.
>
> irene
****
sorry, rather redundant there, if would be retrograde and antereograde amnesia. in my case, frontal lobe syndrome meant lobe atrophy with an increase in brain water.at first, i was angry, anger ruled my life by all those "rare adverse side efx" that now ruled it. i would play a game, this after the year i spent living with my little brother, who had to be in the car with me to rent videos, 6 turns total inclusive of driveways, my new game was take daughter to school (3 turns total), come inside, put keys on kitchen table, walk up inside cabin into next room, then turn around and figure out what the game was. i would look and look and look, and i never found them. the next morning, the keys would be on the breakfast table, then i would remember the game.
i eventually got less angry and decided to do what i could about it. reading all i could about experiments performed on what would stop memory loss on 'old people' they're disposable you know(sic) i took all those drugs, then got into all the smart drugs, neuroprotectives, spent fortunes on things like ondansetron and provigil, started arguing philosophy again, writing poetry, reading neitzsche, yada yada yada, i had access to some very unconventional therapies such as open loop magnetic neurofeedback, and i accepted it. i also took cortisol blockers and redid some of my education.
and then i scanned better, the mini miracle had happened.
i still find myself in stores, it happened today. i am standing in a superstore with a cart and like a deer in headlights for a moment i ask myself:"what am i doing here? what is it that daughter and i need?" and my mind goes as blank as a cretin. i still don't know street names and never will. but things can get worse and do.
my life i have 'flashbulb' memories of; its not worth remembering is the drift i get. i'm divorcing my norweigan spouse, i knew i couldn't stand him anyway. my regrets are the loss of all those years spent in school and no memory whatsoever of my precious child's life.it is truly a total and utter last resort's last resort, especially now:
******
George, M. S. (2002). "New methods of minimally invasive brain modulation as therapies in psychiatry: TMS, MST, VNS and DBS." Zhonghua Yi Xue Za Zhi (Taipei) 65(8): 349-60.Over the past 20 years, new methods have been developed that have allowed scientists to visualize the human brain in action. Initially positron emission tomography (PET) and now functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) are causing a paradigm shift in psychiatry and the neurosciences. Psychiatry is abandoning the pharmacological model of 'brain as soup', used for much of the past 20 years. Instead, there is new realization that both normal and abnormal behavior arise from chemical processes that occur within parallel distributed networks in specific brain regions. Many of these pathological circuits are becoming well characterized, in disorders ranging from Parkinson's disease, to obsessive-compulsive disorder, to depression. Most recently, there has been an explosion of new techniques that allow for direct stimulation of these brain circuits, without the need for open craniotomy and neurosurgical ablation. The techniques include transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), magnetic seizure therapy (MST), vagus nerve stimulation (VNS), and deep brain stimulation (DBS). This review will describe these new tools, and overview their current and future potential for research and clinical neuropsychiatric use. The psychiatry of the future will be better grounded in a firm understanding of neuroanatomy and neurophysiology (as well as pharmacology). These brain stimulation tools, or their next iterations, will play an ever-larger role in clinical neuropsychiatric practice.
************
i plan to get some electrodes myself. the japanese can't wait to make them available. dr heath/heathe of tulane university is still worshipped as a god. i know one of his students, a professor of biopsychology.
http://paradise-engineering.com/brain/index.htm
best mangoes,
dJ
Posted by iris2 on September 9, 2004, at 8:13:19
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse? » iris2, posted by djinnicht on September 9, 2004, at 2:24:41
>>at first, i was angry, anger ruled my life by all those "rare adverse side efx" that now ruled it. i would play a game, this after the year i spent living with my little brother, who had to be in the car with me to rent videos, 6 turns total inclusive of driveways, my new game was take daughter to school (3 turns total), come inside, put keys on kitchen table, walk up inside cabin into next room, then turn around and figure out what the game was. i would look and look and look, and i never found them. the next morning, the keys would be on the breakfast table, then i would remember the game.
i eventually got less angry and decided to do what i could about it. reading all i could about experiments performed on what would stop memory loss on 'old people' they're disposable you know(sic) i took all those drugs, then got into all the smart drugs, neuroprotectives, spent fortunes on things like ondansetron and provigil, started arguing philosophy again, writing poetry, reading neitzsche, yada yada yada, i had access to some very unconventional therapies such as open loop magnetic neurofeedback, and i accepted it. i also took cortisol blockers and redid some of my education.
and then i scanned better, the mini miracle had happened.
i still find myself in stores, it happened today. i am standing in a superstore with a cart and like a deer in headlights for a moment i ask myself:"what am i doing here? what is it that daughter and i need?" and my mind goes as blank as a cretin. i still don't know street names and never will. but things can get worse and do.
my life i have 'flashbulb' memories of; its not worth remembering is the drift i get. i'm divorcing my norweigan spouse, i knew i couldn't stand him anyway. my regrets are the loss of all those years spent in school and no memory whatsoever of my precious child's life.<<Okay so you speak like a bridge above my head. But I get this. This is what I go through. NO memory of street names, anything I learned in school, sometimes an entire class,parking the car in the same place every time or I do not know where it is five minutes after I park it. ETC or ECT?
irene
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 9, 2004, at 10:04:08
In reply to Re: Can ECT Make Depression worse?, posted by djinnicht on September 8, 2004, at 15:44:13
> doctors are willing to fry their brains with electricity
I'm sorry if you've suffered side effects, but please don't exaggerate. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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