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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on April 8, 2004, at 19:31:28
In reply to Re: Prozac doesnt effect dopamine, only serotonin, posted by 1980Monroe on April 8, 2004, at 17:21:28
Actually, it does have an effect on DA/NE:
Posted by 1980Monroe on April 8, 2004, at 20:21:29
In reply to Re: Prozac doesnt effect dopamine, only serotonin, posted by Ame Sans Vie on April 8, 2004, at 19:31:28
Intresting artlicle, never seen it before, guess you are right. I thought prozac just affected serotonin, and maybe noradrenaline at higher doses. But serotoin is still its main target, i know effexor works on all 3 nuerotransmitters, i thought you got it screwed up with that, but nope. But wellbutrin and ritilin still would produce that same dopamine arousal, motivation he's refering too, right? Well opinions are welcome.
Posted by snapper on April 8, 2004, at 20:53:29
In reply to Motiavion meds (similar to Adderall/amphetamines)?, posted by btnd on April 8, 2004, at 5:07:48
Brad, I used to *live* off of Adderall and I am so sad that it so addictive (for some)tolerence, and eventually my BP II aggitation broke through while I was taking it. I don't know of a specific med (legal) that will give you the great feeling that ADDERALL did. fwiw I am also looking for meds for that same indication, I am severely A-motivational. Some might say that Wellbutrin and Provigil would help in this area, but for me they just did'nt do the trick. Let us know if you find anyhting that is FDA approved and actually available to us!
snapper
Posted by kka on April 8, 2004, at 22:53:53
In reply to Re: sorry, posted by 1980Monroe on April 8, 2004, at 20:21:29
> Intresting artlicle, never seen it before, guess you are right. I thought prozac just affected serotonin, and maybe noradrenaline at higher doses. But serotoin is still its main target, i know effexor works on all 3 nuerotransmitters, i thought you got it screwed up with that, but nope. But wellbutrin and ritilin still would produce that same dopamine arousal, motivation he's refering too, right? Well opinions are welcome.
Could anyone in this thread comment on the effect of strattera on all three neurotransmitters. I have heard some comments on how it helps with motivation, and how amazing of a drug to help so many areas. Could anyone explain in easy terms everything that it "works" on. I have been on Prozac then it quit working. I tried Lexapro then Effexor, and then added Wellbutrin but nothing was as great as when I first started Prozac. Chasing the dragon?? I am now back to prozac at double the dose (now 40 mgs) and I am still having trouble with motiviation. I know I need to arouse my dopamine levels and the wellbutrin made me lose some hair so I went off that right away. Would Strattera be a good drug to add to my Prozac. Thanks in advance for you input!
Posted by zeugma on April 9, 2004, at 4:34:53
In reply to Strattera » 1980Monroe, posted by kka on April 8, 2004, at 22:53:53
Strattera blocks the norepinephrine transporter, which also elevates dopamine levels in parts of the brain in which DA is primarily cleared by the NE transporter (the prefrontal cortex). The PFC is hypothesized to be the seat of 'executive functioning' (basically, decision making, formulation of long-term goals, etc.)
I have a lot of executive function issues (inattentive ADD, plus various learning disabilities, along with major anxiety and depression) and Strattera is slowly helping me get them under control.
Strattera would complement Prozac nicely. The combination of NE and 5-HT reuptake inhibition woould be similar to what is offered by Effexor or Cymbalta, but with the advantage of being able to adjust the effects on each neurotransmitter individually.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on April 9, 2004, at 8:43:01
In reply to Re: sorry, posted by 1980Monroe on April 8, 2004, at 20:21:29
No sweat -- most people don't realize Prozac is such a robust medication.
Re: Wellbutrin and Ritalin, I'd definitely say that either could be used to enhance dopaminergic/noradrenergic activity with the outcome of enhanced motivation and energy... but Wellbutrin *may* be more adept at this. They do seem to have quite a similar effect, except that 1) Ritalin, generally speaking, tends to cause a feeling of "dullness" which is hardly conducive to motivation, and 2) with Ritalin, or any methylphenidate product, you have to worry about that terrible between-dose period. That being said, I find stimulants work much better for me than Wellbutrin in this regard, but it's the amphetamines that I find so highly motivating -- certainly not methylphenidate.
Posted by fallsfall on April 9, 2004, at 9:32:34
In reply to Strattera » 1980Monroe, posted by kka on April 8, 2004, at 22:53:53
I have taken 60 mg Prozac and 80 mg Strattera for over a year. I added Strattera and Provigil at the same time - and the combination seemed to me to be vastly superior than just adding Strattera or just Provigil (but I haven't heard this from anyone else...). It DID increase my motivation and really helped with energy levels. I take it for Severe Depression (I do not have ADHD).
I am now weaning off the Strattera in hopes that this summer I won't sweat while I am sitting still in a chair and it is 85 degress outside... I'm hoping that I don't need it as much as I did a year ago, it would be a hard choice as to which reduces my activity level more, the depression or the sweating.
Except for the sweating I really like Strattera.
Posted by kka on April 9, 2004, at 9:45:37
In reply to Re: Strattera » kka, posted by fallsfall on April 9, 2004, at 9:32:34
Thanks for your input, sounds like what I need, going to try and get a rx and give it a shot...rally need my drive back!!
Posted by btnd on April 9, 2004, at 10:21:43
In reply to Re: Strattera » fallsfall, posted by kka on April 9, 2004, at 9:45:37
Are you guys saying good old SSRI - Prozac increases motivation & energy ?
How about Enada NADH? Rhodiola Rosea? Anyone uses those to increase motivation,interest,desire to do stuff,energy??
Posted by 1980Monroe on April 9, 2004, at 11:23:07
In reply to Prozac for motivation ?? Enada NADH,Rhodiola?, posted by btnd on April 9, 2004, at 10:21:43
I have experimented with supplements and other meds. such as wellbutrin, ginseng, caffeine.
None of them really do the trick, exept one supplement, DL-Phenylalanine is the only one that really comes close, because it is metabolized to dopamine in the body, it defiently does raise your mood.
I also read that it is converted into the body's natural ampetamine, its chemical structure is very close to amphetamine.
When DL-Phenylalanine is taken with Caffeine or Ginseng (an easy was is No-Doz caffeine pills) it gives a close simulation of amphetamine, but its still not the real thing. Thats really the only imitation that can get close, but its over the counter, so there some good news. You can purchase DL-Phenylalanine at usally GNC, and other supplement stores.
Hope that was Good Info.
Posted by zeugma on April 9, 2004, at 12:12:39
In reply to Re: Strattera » kka, posted by fallsfall on April 9, 2004, at 9:32:34
>I added Strattera and Provigil at the same time - and the combination seemed to me to be vastly superior than just adding Strattera or just Provigil (but I haven't heard this from anyone else...). It DID increase my motivation and really helped with energy levels. I take it for Severe Depression (I do not have ADHD).>
Actually, I keep coming across reports of the special efficacy of this combination. I take 80 mg Strattera, and it has been great for brain fog and motivation, but I feel tired most of the time, and this worsens exponentially if I experience any lack of sleep.
I have depression, anxiety, ADD, and might well have narcolepsy (haven't had a sleep study done yet). Last year I brought up Provigil to my pdoc, because I was complaining I didn't feel 'awake.' He was concerned that anything stimulant-like might exacerbate my anxiety levels. Today i see him for my monthly appt. Does provigil lessen the effect of klonopin or other anxiolytics? What about its effects on sleep?
Posted by scott-d-o on April 9, 2004, at 15:14:09
In reply to Re: DL-Phenylalanine + Caffeine = amphetamine-like, posted by 1980Monroe on April 9, 2004, at 11:23:07
> I have experimented with supplements and other meds. such as wellbutrin, ginseng, caffeine.
>
> None of them really do the trick, exept one supplement, DL-Phenylalanine is the only one that really comes close, because it is metabolized to dopamine in the body, it defiently does raise your mood.
>
> I also read that it is converted into the body's natural ampetamine, its chemical structure is very close to amphetamine.
>
> When DL-Phenylalanine is taken with Caffeine or Ginseng (an easy was is No-Doz caffeine pills) it gives a close simulation of amphetamine, but its still not the real thing. Thats really the only imitation that can get close, but its over the counter, so there some good news. You can purchase DL-Phenylalanine at usally GNC, and other supplement stores.
>
> Hope that was Good Info.dl-phenylalanine is metabolized into phenethylamine (PEA) which does closely resembles amphetamine in structure. if you take PEA and you add a methyl group (CH3) onto one of the carbon atoms, you get amphetamine. If you add another methyl group, this time onto the nitrogen, you get methamphetamine.
an interesting experiment to try would be to combine the amino acid l-methionine (an amino acid which likes to methylate) with dl-phenylalanine. perhaps you could generate your very own endogenous amphetamine?
Posted by PsychoSage on April 9, 2004, at 16:11:39
In reply to Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? » fallsfall, posted by zeugma on April 9, 2004, at 12:12:39
> >I added Strattera and Provigil at the same time - and the combination seemed to me to be vastly superior than just adding Strattera or just Provigil (but I haven't heard this from anyone else...). It DID increase my motivation and really helped with energy levels. I take it for Severe Depression (I do not have ADHD).>
>
> Actually, I keep coming across reports of the special efficacy of this combination. I take 80 mg Strattera, and it has been great for brain fog and motivation, but I feel tired most of the time, and this worsens exponentially if I experience any lack of sleep.
>
> I have depression, anxiety, ADD, and might well have narcolepsy (haven't had a sleep study done yet). Last year I brought up Provigil to my pdoc, because I was complaining I didn't feel 'awake.' He was concerned that anything stimulant-like might exacerbate my anxiety levels. Today i see him for my monthly appt. Does provigil lessen the effect of klonopin or other anxiolytics? What about its effects on sleep?
>
>
>I would say the klonopin lessens the provigil. Provigil's main action is on alpha 1, but I am not sure if benzos mess with that though.
Provigil doesn't give me trouble falling asleep or staying asleep, but I have very vivid scary dreams. In the beginning it may decrease your sleep anhour or two, but that goes away eventually.
I also take wellbutrin and trileptal, so I don't have a clear view of plain provigil but few non-pure-narcoleptics do since we often use Provigil to augment.
Posted by fallsfall on April 9, 2004, at 16:52:19
In reply to Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? » fallsfall, posted by zeugma on April 9, 2004, at 12:12:39
My impression is that the Provigil wears off before nighttime comes, so it doesn't seem to affect my sleep. I sometimes take Ativan at night, but never anything like that during the day, so I don't know how that interacts. I don't take Klonopin.
I don't know about Provigil and anxiety. I have more anxiety now than I did a year and a half ago, before I started the Provigil. But my life is very different now from how it was then, so it is hard to say if the anxiety is drug induced or environment induced. I had always assumed that it was the environment (but the timing is such that it *could* have increased my anxiety... hmmmm).
At the time I started Strattera and Provigil I would get my daughter off to school and then go back to bed. Once I started these two meds (which I took just before my nap), my naps would last exactly 90 minutes. So I know that they were helping me be alert.
Posted by 1980Monroe on April 9, 2004, at 18:32:25
In reply to Re: DL-Phenylalanine + Caffeine = amphetamine-like, posted by scott-d-o on April 9, 2004, at 15:14:09
that does sound intresting, i wonder if it would work. Can you get l-methionine at supplement stores, what is it used for by the way? Thanks for that info.
Posted by zeugma on April 9, 2004, at 19:29:04
In reply to Re: Provigil and Klonopin » zeugma, posted by PsychoSage on April 9, 2004, at 16:11:39
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> I would say the klonopin lessens the provigil. Provigil's main action is on alpha 1, but I am not sure if benzos mess with that though.i am under the impression that klonopin would lessen the provigil too. I think Provigil is more of a dopaminergic med, from some of the research I've looked at. It has reinforcing properties.
My pdoc recommended caffeine for the increased tiredness of Klonopin. At least I'm familiar with its effects; it does little to increase my anxiety level. He said i would get tolerance to the sedating effect before long. This already seems to be happening (I am taking .5 mg in the am).
>
> Provigil doesn't give me trouble falling asleep or staying asleep, but I have very vivid scary dreams. In the beginning it may decrease your sleep anhour or two, but that goes away eventually.>
> I also take wellbutrin and trileptal, so I don't have a clear view of plain provigil but few non-pure-narcoleptics do since we often use Provigil to augment.
Posted by zeugma on April 9, 2004, at 19:32:35
In reply to Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? » zeugma, posted by fallsfall on April 9, 2004, at 16:52:19
My main concern, besides the management of ADD and depressive symptoms (which seem VERY dependent on the amount of sleep i get) is on keeping my anxiety level down. I have a feeling the Provigil could compromise the efficacy of the Klonopin.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on April 9, 2004, at 20:09:10
In reply to Prozac for motivation ?? Enada NADH,Rhodiola?, posted by btnd on April 9, 2004, at 10:21:43
> Are you guys saying good old SSRI - Prozac increases motivation & energy ?
It certainly does for me -- a single dose of 40mg provides me with a *very* amphetamine-like increase in energy/motivation (albeit not to the same degree as amphetamine itself does, of course).
> How about Enada NADH? Rhodiola Rosea? Anyone uses those to increase motivation,interest,desire to do stuff,energy??
NADH is really good, but ungodly expensive. Rhodiola rosea is a wonderful adaptogen (wayyy better than ginseng!), but I haven't found it useful for anything else.
Posted by douglass on April 9, 2004, at 22:01:14
In reply to Motiavion meds (similar to Adderall/amphetamines)?, posted by btnd on April 8, 2004, at 5:07:48
> Has anynone ever used any meds or supplements which gave the mental motivation and desire to achieve and create, like after consuming amphetamine-based meds? (Adderall/Dexedrine).
>
> Personally only 2 things worked little similar to amph.
>
> 1) Clonazepam. At 2mg/day. But only during first 3 days of usage. After those 3 days - the anti-anxiety effect was still present, but motivation aspect went away, unfortunately. No other benzos worked in similar way as Klonopin.
>
> 2) Ultram. 100-200mg/day. But only at around 1/4 of the motivation which amphetamine give.
>
> No other supplements, or meds worked like amphs. Anyone has had experiences ? I appreciate your input.
>
> Take care,
> Brad
Brad, I suffer from combat PTSD with secondary major depression. Thru usual AD I got my depression under control. Then after a few years I started to feel a lack of energy, motivation,not getting pleasure out of anything and an extreme lack of energy physically and psychically. I also looked at the dopaminergics and found a few that worked, but one in particular and some OTC Da precursors or releasers. In dec 2000 I tried Survector(amineptine)100mg/tab I had found in Argentina. This after much research about the drug and an excruciating search for months till I found a place that sold it to the public on the inter net. I bought some and within days I started to perk up and within 2 weeks the full effect had been achieved.
I had more energy to do things, my thoughts were more productive as I was near vegetative in my thinking and they came much more easily. I had motivation to start new projects and see them to the end and get much satisfaction out of simple tasks. My socializing was improving so I didn't feel I had to go out of my way not to talk to peope, I would engadge in conversations. My ability to listen and carry on a two way conversation was such a good feeling after so many years being silent. I felt more normal than I ever did.
I started out at 50mg and experimented with the dose till I found the optimal dose for me was 200mg daily. It didn't seem to matter if I took the full 200mg in morning or cut it up into two or three doses through out the day, so I took them both in the morning. Some even take them before bedtime as they aren't like amph where they will keep you up.
I also take klonopin 2mg/day for anxiety and found a synergystic affect also but that synergy pooped out after a couple months, but I still take klonopin for the anxiety.I'm not sure how much amineptine deals with anxiety as I never washed out of klonopin and tried just amineptine for anxiety.
I started to find out about some precursors to dopamine and DL-Phenalalinine was the best at 2000mg/day, L-Tyrosine was also of some benefit, but it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier as easily as DL Phenalalinine.(these medium to large sized molecules of amino acids have to be taken on an empty stomach as there is competition with other amino acids to cross the BBB ).
Also mentioned was NADH and just by itself is energizing but I found I needed 20-30mg NADH to get the energizing effect wnen at just 5mg it works geat synergistically with amineptine. Again you have to find your own dose so start at 5mg and then 10mg if it's not enough. Usually with NADH your so depleted of this nutrient that it takes a few weeks to quench the cell mitochondria of this much needed nutrient for making energy at the cellular level, Once you've saturated the cells, you can even cut back on the dose of NADH, you'll feel the extra dopamine if the dose of either is too high, so depending on which is cheapest, you can cut back on either amineptine or NADH, but they both are expensive so I guess it doesn't matter. I keep my amineptine at 200mg and adjust any other add on's around that.
One more worth mentioning is a B-MAOI only, lke selegeline 5mg. This is a dopaminergic used for parkinsons but is also a very effective anti depressant on it's own(a selegeline patch should be marketed soon for major depression). My Pdoc and I have carefully titrated these to get the best results without getting hypomanic but just below that.'I have not experienced any poop out as others have with amineptine, maybe it;s the DL Phenalalinine that keeps raw material for the production of dopamine steady as the body needs it.There is a rate limiting factor of an enzyme that turns DL Phenal. to Tyrosine, which is turned to dopamine, then seratonine and melatonin.The enzyme has more than one function so when it's used up then no matter how much DL Phenal. is taken it won't get changed down to dopamine, I believe it's tyrosinehydroxylase.
Survector is available by searching the web for it's site.
Tell your Pdoc what your are thinking of doing or are doing so you can be monitored medically and psychologically for your safety.There are so many variables that no one regimen that works for me may work for you, but it's an alternative to the adderall, ritalin, dexadrine and all the amph. class drugs. Ask others who have posted their experience on amineptine their opinions.
Good luck and don't stop looking, somewhere there's an answer to your dilemma
douglass
Posted by Viridis on April 10, 2004, at 2:53:03
In reply to Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? » fallsfall, posted by zeugma on April 9, 2004, at 19:32:35
I took Provigil for a while (with Klonopin and occasional Xanax) and didn't find it the least bit anxiogenic. It was energizing and increased my confidence, yet I could sleep with no problems. I switched to Adderall (better for me for ADD) but recommend Provigil highly as a stimulant with low anxiety potential, and I found that it mixed well with Klonopin.
Klonopin and Adderall can be a great combo (for me and others here) and that's become my "main line" treatment for anxiety, depression, and ADD. You might try this if possible.
Proper sleep is very important in management of anxiety and depression -- I just wish that I could get myself to follow a regular sleep schedule. Mine is erratic at best, but Provigil certainly didn't interfere.
Posted by zeugma on April 10, 2004, at 6:13:36
In reply to Re: Strattera and provigil- anxiety? » zeugma, posted by Viridis on April 10, 2004, at 2:53:03
I've failed several stimulant trials, due to rapid weight loss. Currently I am seeing a gastroenterologist to work on my digestive problems, which are probably contributing to my chronically underweight condition. In the meantime, Strattera has been working well for me, although it's not very stimulating- I can go to sleep right after taking it in the morning- and it's pretty good sleep too.
The sedation from increasing the dose of Klonopin is (I think) wearing off- it's my experience, with other sedating drugs, that it takes about 2 weeks to acquire tolerance of sedating qualities.
That being said, I have a longstanding energy deficit that may or may not be related to my digestive (and metabolic?) troubles. I've had my thyroid checked several times (drs. have suspected i might be hyperthyroid) but that's checked out ok each time. My pdoc is mostly interested in my concentration level, not my energy, and the Strattera is still working on that (at least at work- at home I am struggling with chaos). I suspect the energy deficit is related to some constitutional factor that is going to require exercise, and careful nutrition, to control.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 10, 2004, at 7:26:07
In reply to Re: DL-Phenylalanine + Caffeine = amphetamine-like, posted by 1980Monroe on April 9, 2004, at 18:32:25
> that does sound intresting, i wonder if it would work. Can you get l-methionine at supplement stores, what is it used for by the way?
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding alternative treatments to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040225/msgs/334821.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by douglass on April 10, 2004, at 10:25:46
In reply to Re: Survector(amineptine),NADH, DL-Phenalalinine a » douglass, posted by rod on April 10, 2004, at 7:47:04
rod
I was on 200g of amineptine fromdec 2000 to feb 2003 which is 2 mo. longerthan a year. Ihad the same efficacy the first day I took it to the last. I had to stop as servier argentina stopped lisencing it for distribution and manufactoring. I went from then till july of 2003 without any and in the interim used such drugs as strettera, amilsulpride, provigil and lots of DL phenalalinine, NADH, selegeline, DHEA, SAMe, bromocriptine etc., all with my P doc looking for something comparable to amineptine. But there is nothing compararable to amineptine. There are some interesting looking drugs inthe pipeline of research but the one or two we are looking at won't make it to public till 2006.
When used at therapeutic levels it was for me great forsocial phobia, anergia, anhedonis, dysthymis and a lack od motivation.It turned all of them around and I once again feel like a normal human being. Why some got so excited over some OD cases is beyond me as it's the best AD around. Of course if you take 1500mg daily there's bundto be consequences, but the literature is absolutely devoid of any adverse affects when taken at therapeutic dose.100-200mg daily.It's rather easy to find if you google either survector or amineptine. But if you still have trouble finding the source of buying amineptine I can give you mye ail address, but I don't know how to do that on this board, do you?
Posted by rod on April 10, 2004, at 10:40:24
In reply to Re: Survector(amineptine),NADH, DL-Phenalalinine a » rod, posted by douglass on April 10, 2004, at 10:25:46
> rod
> I was on 200g of amineptine fromdec 2000 to feb 2003 which is 2 mo. longerthan a year. Ihad the same efficacy the first day I took it to the last. I had to stop as servier argentina stopped lisencing it for distribution and manufactoring. I went from then till july of 2003 without any and in the interim used such drugs as strettera, amilsulpride, provigil and lots of DL phenalalinine, NADH, selegeline, DHEA, SAMe, bromocriptine etc., all with my P doc looking for something comparable to amineptine. But there is nothing compararable to amineptine. There are some interesting looking drugs inthe pipeline of research but the one or two we are looking at won't make it to public till 2006.
> When used at therapeutic levels it was for me great forsocial phobia, anergia, anhedonis, dysthymis and a lack od motivation.It turned all of them around and I once again feel like a normal human being. Why some got so excited over some OD cases is beyond me as it's the best AD around. Of course if you take 1500mg daily there's bundto be consequences, but the literature is absolutely devoid of any adverse affects when taken at therapeutic dose.100-200mg daily.It's rather easy to find if you google either survector or amineptine. But if you still have trouble finding the source of buying amineptine I can give you mye ail address, but I don't know how to do that on this board, do you?
No thanks. I know the source. Thats way too expensive for me. I still seach for a way to get this drug out of brasil, but it doesnt look good. And synthesising it by myself is too hard for me, because I am no chemist :(
And great to hear that it didnt loos its effectiveness.Roland
Posted by douglass on April 10, 2004, at 19:41:22
In reply to Re: Survector(amineptine),NADH, DL-Phenalalinine a » douglass, posted by rod on April 10, 2004, at 10:40:24
> > rod
> > I was on 200g of amineptine fromdec 2000 to feb 2003 which is 2 mo. longerthan a year. Ihad the same efficacy the first day I took it to the last. I had to stop as servier argentina stopped lisencing it for distribution and manufactoring. I went from then till july of 2003 without any and in the interim used such drugs as strettera, amilsulpride, provigil and lots of DL phenalalinine, NADH, selegeline, DHEA, SAMe, bromocriptine etc., all with my P doc looking for something comparable to amineptine. But there is nothing compararable to amineptine. There are some interesting looking drugs inthe pipeline of research but the one or two we are looking at won't make it to public till 2006.
> > When used at therapeutic levels it was for me great forsocial phobia, anergia, anhedonis, dysthymis and a lack od motivation.It turned all of them around and I once again feel like a normal human being. Why some got so excited over some OD cases is beyond me as it's the best AD around. Of course if you take 1500mg daily there's bundto be consequences, but the literature is absolutely devoid of any adverse affects when taken at therapeutic dose.100-200mg daily.It's rather easy to find if you google either survector or amineptine. But if you still have trouble finding the source of buying amineptine I can give you mye ail address, but I don't know how to do that on this board, do you?
>
>
> No thanks. I know the source. Thats way too expensive for me. I still seach for a way to get this drug out of brasil, but it doesnt look good. And synthesising it by myself is too hard for me, because I am no chemist :(
> And great to hear that it didnt loos its effectiveness.
>
> Rolandroland, e mail me at dougy1@adelphia.net
This is the end of the thread.
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