![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 35 to 59 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by hildi on February 12, 2003, at 23:39:57
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by missinglynxx on February 10, 2003, at 17:48:48
Oh good! I'm glad you're also liking nortripyline. I will ask to try this- I go into my new dr. next week -on the 20th. I never considered taking this before because my anxiety is so unbelievable, but who knows- It is worth a try. I want to feel again. I want to care about things, about life. I feel like a 'stepford wife", a robot, right now. My last dr. said: "What are you complaining about, at least you're not crying". I am serious-can you believe that response!
I told him I expect more than just not to cry, and the dr. said that "I'm expecting too much". I kid you not. I'm telling you, I honestly don't how I would have dealt with all this crap from the dr. and the way I've been feeling if not for finding this board and discovering how much we have in common and discovering new ideas and getting support from so many people I don't know. It is nice to talk to others who know how I feel and be able to talk about this without being patronized.
Hildi
Posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 0:02:13
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by zeugma on February 10, 2003, at 19:45:53
Thanks for the support. I am thinking of asking my dr. for a trial of this when I go in next week. I just mentioned to missinglynxx that I worried it would increase my anxiety, but I do think it is worth the 'risk' of that to give this a try. Irritability I can deal with more than increased nerviousness and anxiety.
I wonder though, if I have ADD or if it is bipolar tendencies -brought on by the ad's possibly. I get racing thoughts, restlessness, and hyperness at times- actually every day. I can't sit still- I have to keep moving unless I take a ton of benzos. I thought it was just the anxiety, but the benzos don't really take care of the anxiety, just help slow me down. But I still feel agitated and I wonder if it's a tad of BP or ADD. I try to get as much information as I can on these subjects but still don't know.
Cutting through the fog, like you said the nortrip does- I remember many years ago feeling that way for a very brief period of time when I started prozac- but then it all went downhill and the fog is thick, very thick now. The benzos I take along with the prozac probably add to the fog, but do slow down some of the hyperness and desire to rearrange things all the time! I can't sit still and talk to someone- I have to jump up and fix a slanted picture or do something 'busy' that doesn't require thought, just movement.
So, anyway, I mystify myself. I don't know what I have-beside a major anxiety d/o and depression.
My question is: if I am BP, would a TCA, would nortrip, make it worse? (I read somewhere that TCA's make BP worse-but I don't know if I am BP and even if so, it would probably be BPII) It helps ADD so that sounds interesting . . .
Wish I knew what my real diagnosis was/is, but who cares if I can find something that works. Labels don't always make the best resources for prescribing meds since people respond so differently to the meds, anyway.
Hildi
Posted by zeugma on February 13, 2003, at 20:11:14
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi » zeugma, posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 0:02:13
> Thanks for the support. I am thinking of asking my dr. for a trial of this when I go in next week. I just mentioned to missinglynxx that I worried it would increase my anxiety, but I do think it is worth the 'risk' of that to give this a try. Irritability I can deal with more than increased nerviousness and anxiety.
> I wonder though, if I have ADD or if it is bipolar tendencies -brought on by the ad's possibly. I get racing thoughts, restlessness, and hyperness at times- actually every day. I can't sit still- I have to keep moving unless I take a ton of benzos. I thought it was just the anxiety, but the benzos don't really take care of the anxiety, just help slow me down. But I still feel agitated and I wonder if it's a tad of BP or ADD. I try to get as much information as I can on these subjects but still don't know.
> Cutting through the fog, like you said the nortrip does- I remember many years ago feeling that way for a very brief period of time when I started prozac- but then it all went downhill and the fog is thick, very thick now. The benzos I take along with the prozac probably add to the fog, but do slow down some of the hyperness and desire to rearrange things all the time! I can't sit still and talk to someone- I have to jump up and fix a slanted picture or do something 'busy' that doesn't require thought, just movement.
> So, anyway, I mystify myself. I don't know what I have-beside a major anxiety d/o and depression.
> My question is: if I am BP, would a TCA, would nortrip, make it worse? (I read somewhere that TCA's make BP worse-but I don't know if I am BP and even if so, it would probably be BPII) It helps ADD so that sounds interesting . . .
> Wish I knew what my real diagnosis was/is, but who cares if I can find something that works. Labels don't always make the best resources for prescribing meds since people respond so differently to the meds, anyway.
> Hildi
>Hildi-
I don't know if you have BP or are just more efficient than I am (ha). I know nortriptyline is not recommeded for BP's- causes phase change, as the insert from Rite Aid said. Nortriptyline helps with ADD though. It makes things like writing much easier- I always had trouble getting my thoughts out- the movements seemed too complex- I can express myself a lot more clearly these days (good thing because I'm in graduate school and should be writing every day). It also helped with anxiety but in a subtle way. I obseved that certain things were less scary, but I had to stop and think about it for a minute before realizing it.
Btw I totally understood where you were coming from when you described your meeting with your dr. in your reply to missinglynxx. Generally doctors aren't concerned with whether you're meeting your life goals - as long as you're not breaking down in front of them. I've been thinking a lot about what I hope to achieve with these meds, as well as how I actually want to feel on them. For me getting the self-loathing and fearfulness and fog under control is a big part of it- so is being able to function in a more normal way and being able to work more and advance on earning a living. Maybe it's too ambitious, but if I didn't have these goals I don't think I'd be getting the most out of the meds. I'd hate to think I was tweaking my brain chemistry for nothing. I think you're totally justified in wanting more from your meds.
Good luck,
z
Posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 22:51:02
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by zeugma on February 13, 2003, at 20:11:14
Too ambitious? No way. I don't expect a miracle from medicine, but I want to be able to live a life where I can achieve my goals, and not to feel 'self-loathing' or 'fearful'; also not to feel drugged or in a daze. I quite drugs so I wouldn't be in a daze-also booze (but then, I'm an alcoholic so I had no choice: quit drinking or die in a gutter somewhere).
Without being able to have my goals and the ability to acheive them, I would feel like I'm living a half a life- my goals-school, career, more financial security, etc- give me something to look forward to, work towards, be productive and good at, and be excited about, but even more than that and I think you understand.
I am an undergrad still, but soon will be graduating and going on to further my education.
For me, the writing can get hard because I'm such a perfectionist I tend to over-do it, or if I'm having a really bad day I sit and stare with not a thought in my head. What to write? Where to start? Very scary. All the reading freaks me out too, because I have such a hard time sitting still and concentrating- I have to keep reading same passage over and over again, or the words seems to 'bounce' off the pages. Also scary.
But I don't think it's too much to ask to try to find the right meds and formula, nutrients, etc . . to make the most that we can out of our lives and our brains. I think we deserve it. I want the rest of my years to be good ones. Not drugged, spaced out, doing nothing years, but good, productive, happy ones.
Hildi
Posted by missinglynxx on February 14, 2003, at 10:38:17
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi » zeugma, posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 22:51:02
Great Post Hildi!
Ill get right to the point,, Nortriptyline is a VERY clear drug. I feel you would do great on it. It doesnt cause a loss of IQ (sadly It doesnt increase your IQ either haha) BUT what drug does, IN other words IT doesnt have any of the "dumbing" down affects of Alcohol & some of the drugs mentioned here, I wont name names cuz youve already committed them to memory
Just go for it and expect side effects !
after all they were discovered in the 50's NOT exactly a very high tech era in America
Go FETCH some Nortriptyline,, Hildi
BTW which university are you at?
Posted by hildi on February 14, 2003, at 22:26:42
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by missinglynxx on February 14, 2003, at 10:38:17
Roosevelt University in Chicago Illinois. Majoring in psychology- and will continue my graduate studies in just what, haven't pin-pointed it down yet-something with law/social justice/advocacy-
I was an environmental science major at first, but changed majors due to several reasons, and I know that if I cannot/do not go that route I still want to do something in educating/protecting people against social injustice/environmental degradation, etc. . .
What is your major (in both undergrad and Grad),and what school do you go to?
Hildi
Posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by missinglynxx on February 14, 2003, at 10:38:17
Your posts about nortriptyline have been informative and inspiring. In fact, your positive experiences (along with similar reports from other psycho-babblers) enabled me to overcome my fears & prejudices about TCAs.
I tried amitriptyline once, and found the sedation, thought-clouding, and other side effects so severe that I felt like I'd been poisoned. So I concluded that the entire TCA category was not for me. Web research had bolstered that negative opinion - many sites (such as biopsychiatry.com, which seems to have otherwise informed and enlightened views) refer to TCAs as "dumb drugs" which are best avoided.
Last month, I considered trying Strattera, but when I found out that my insurance would not cover the Rx, I started searching for other norepinephrine-enhancing meds. When I learned that desipramine was almost as NE-specific as Strattera (and WAY cheaper), I decided to give it a try. My experience so far (exactly 2 weeks) has been encouraging. Side effects have been minimal and are now virtually unnoticable. My mood, motivation, and overall meaningful connection to life have improved. The improvement has not been dramatic, in fact it's been surprisingly subtle. But each day things are a bit better than the day before, and there's no sign that I've leveled off yet. I know that delayed onset and gradual improvement are traditional for antidepressants, but this has never been the case for me before. In the past, every other AD I've tried (and there have been a bunch) "did its thing" (for better or worse) within the first few days.
Anyway, I'm now wondering about how desipramine & nortriptyline compare. Have either of you tried desipramine? My understanding is that nortriptyline is slightly more serotonergic, antimuscarinic, and sedating compared to desipramine. If desipramine turns out to be an incomplete solution, do you think nortriptyline would be worth a try?
I'm also intrigued by the idea of augmenting a TCA with Buspar. I may try this next once I see where the desipramine plateaus out.
- Bob
Posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:25:33
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
> Your posts about nortriptyline have been informative and inspiring. In fact, your positive experiences (along with similar reports from other psycho-babblers) enabled me to overcome my fears & prejudices about TCAs.
>
> I tried amitriptyline once, and found the sedation, thought-clouding, and other side effects so severe that I felt like I'd been poisoned. So I concluded that the entire TCA category was not for me. Web research had bolstered that negative opinion - many sites (such as biopsychiatry.com, which seems to have otherwise informed and enlightened views) refer to TCAs as "dumb drugs" which are best avoided.
>
> Last month, I considered trying Strattera, but when I found out that my insurance would not cover the Rx, I started searching for other norepinephrine-enhancing meds. When I learned that desipramine was almost as NE-specific as Strattera (and WAY cheaper), I decided to give it a try. My experience so far (exactly 2 weeks) has been encouraging. Side effects have been minimal and are now virtually unnoticable. My mood, motivation, and overall meaningful connection to life have improved. The improvement has not been dramatic, in fact it's been surprisingly subtle. But each day things are a bit better than the day before, and there's no sign that I've leveled off yet. I know that delayed onset and gradual improvement are traditional for antidepressants, but this has never been the case for me before. In the past, every other AD I've tried (and there have been a bunch) "did its thing" (for better or worse) within the first few days.
>
> Anyway, I'm now wondering about how desipramine & nortriptyline compare. Have either of you tried desipramine? My understanding is that nortriptyline is slightly more serotonergic, antimuscarinic, and sedating compared to desipramine. If desipramine turns out to be an incomplete solution, do you think nortriptyline would be worth a try?
>
> I'm also intrigued by the idea of augmenting a TCA with Buspar. I may try this next once I see where the desipramine plateaus out.
>
> - Bob
>Thats an awesome progress Report BOB. It couldnt have happened to a COOLER person on this forum,, to find a medication that actually "fits" like a glove pretty much
I understand your point about a gradual shift,, a subtile feeling
Think of this like an intense COLLEGE football game. Sometimes the good guys (US)need to just get a simple first down. Then Rest and plan our next play.
I dislike medications that feel "like" I took a powerful drug....Thats why I like caffeine, and tea haha its weak stuff
ON my research I feel Desiprimine and NOrtriptyline are nearly Identical, dont you?
Im still adjusting to the anticholinegic thing,,, are you?
I do feel more quiet on NOrtripyline,, which is NOT good,, but I think after another month I will get a better :viewpoint:
Thanks for the kind words, Bob and Im thrilled you are taking the :right Medication: Spring will be awesome for you this year.
What is your dose of Desiprimine,,, do you get constipation and dry mouth?
Posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:39:48
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
Bob,I would also split my dose thruout the day!
I like putting some on my tongue, its so COOL how it numbs it up and doesnt taste HALF BAD LOL. Its just like NovocaineHave you noticed that on putting some Desiprimine on your tongue?
Posted by zeugma on February 15, 2003, at 7:05:04
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
> Your posts about nortriptyline have been informative and inspiring. In fact, your positive experiences (along with similar reports from other psycho-babblers) enabled me to overcome my fears & prejudices about TCAs.
>
> I tried amitriptyline once, and found the sedation, thought-clouding, and other side effects so severe that I felt like I'd been poisoned. So I concluded that the entire TCA category was not for me. Web research had bolstered that negative opinion - many sites (such as biopsychiatry.com, which seems to have otherwise informed and enlightened views) refer to TCAs as "dumb drugs" which are best avoided.
>
> Last month, I considered trying Strattera, but when I found out that my insurance would not cover the Rx, I started searching for other norepinephrine-enhancing meds. When I learned that desipramine was almost as NE-specific as Strattera (and WAY cheaper), I decided to give it a try. My experience so far (exactly 2 weeks) has been encouraging. Side effects have been minimal and are now virtually unnoticable. My mood, motivation, and overall meaningful connection to life have improved. The improvement has not been dramatic, in fact it's been surprisingly subtle. But each day things are a bit better than the day before, and there's no sign that I've leveled off yet. I know that delayed onset and gradual improvement are traditional for antidepressants, but this has never been the case for me before. In the past, every other AD I've tried (and there have been a bunch) "did its thing" (for better or worse) within the first few days.
>
> Anyway, I'm now wondering about how desipramine & nortriptyline compare. Have either of you tried desipramine? My understanding is that nortriptyline is slightly more serotonergic, antimuscarinic, and sedating compared to desipramine. If desipramine turns out to be an incomplete solution, do you think nortriptyline would be worth a try?
>
> I'm also intrigued by the idea of augmenting a TCA with Buspar. I may try this next once I see where the desipramine plateaus out.
>
> - Bob
>i'm very happy that you've had some success with desipramine. No, I've never tried it, but it seems similar to nortriptyline- as you said, nortriptyline is a little more serotenergic and sedating (it's the sedating that's important for me). I remember that site at biopsychiatry.com- they called TCA's "cheap, nasty and best avoided." Well, as I had posted around here recently, the last day I missed work because of chronic nausea was the day I started taking nortriptyline. So I had my own ideas on what was "nasty." I think over there they're a little too concerned with how a drug looks on paper and with how "clean" it is ( a prejudice shared in my opinion by much of the psychiatric community).
I also found nortriptyline to have a subtle effect. Aside from the relief from GI pain, which WAS pretty dramatic, I found myself feeling a little less awful in the morning... made sleep a little more restful or something. I guess I have classic melancholic depression, and TCA"s *ARE* the preferred treatment for that. Also about that slow response curve.. I can't say whether it's the conjunction with the Buspar or not, but I have been consistently going to sleep before midnight for about a month now- I am someone who suffered from insomnia since early childhood, so I am VERY happy about that. Are your symptoms at all similar? A lot of the problem with other AD's, aside from the ones I was allergic to, was that they seemed to worsen these 'melancholic' symptoms.
I was also told to try Strattera by my pdoc before it came out. But I would try desipramine first, because it seems like I would have the same problem with Strattera that I did with Prozac and Cylert- worsened sleep and appetite problems. Not to mention TCA's are way cheaper. I'm already spending a fortune on generic buspirone. Being the skeptic that I am, I was wondering this morning if I was experiencing the placebo effect from the Buspar. It's a pretty convincing one, though, so it's money well spent.
z
Posted by Ilene on February 15, 2003, at 22:00:47
In reply to Re: TCAs and success?! » not exactly, posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:25:33
> What is your dose of Desiprimine,,, do you get constipation and dry mouth?
Desipramine was the first AD I was on, about 15 or 16 years ago. I got constipation and dry mouth. At first I tried bran and other less drastic means, but I ended up taking several colace (or a generic) per day. (Colace is a stool softener.)
The dry mouth ended up being more of a problem, because I didn't know it could cause dental problems, which it did.
I also got postural hypotension. None of the side effects wore off, even though the antidepressant effect did.
--I.
Posted by missinglynxx on February 16, 2003, at 2:45:19
In reply to Re: TCAs and success?! » missinglynxx, posted by Ilene on February 15, 2003, at 22:00:47
> > What is your dose of Desiprimine,,, do you get constipation and dry mouth?
>
> Desipramine was the first AD I was on, about 15 or 16 years ago. I got constipation and dry mouth. At first I tried bran and other less drastic means, but I ended up taking several colace (or a generic) per day. (Colace is a stool softener.)
>
> The dry mouth ended up being more of a problem, because I didn't know it could cause dental problems, which it did.
>
> I also got postural hypotension. None of the side effects wore off, even though the antidepressant effect did.
>
> --I.Thanks for the great tip, Ilene!
Ill try that out, the bran to start out with, The constipation isnt BAD< very mild, but the dry mouth is a BUGGER. I hope youve found the right treatment.. Have you moved on to a new drug and what is it? How are you feeling this past month? GOOD Luck and thanks
Posted by missinglynxx on February 17, 2003, at 13:30:59
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
you are doing really well on Desiprimine,, thats great dude/
But you seem so bright, what kind of problems have you had with the heavy hitters (Effexor, Celexa, Luvox)?
I figured that would have cured you up by now?
Oh the Buspar.......Thats one of the most interesting medications on the Planet
Its a mystery, sure gives EVERYONE a buzzy head,reaction...
I really thing its valuable Stuff
Posted by not exactly on February 17, 2003, at 23:32:00
In reply to Re: TCAs and success?! » not exactly, posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:25:33
> ON my research I feel Desiprimine and NOrtriptyline are nearly Identical, dont you?
Much of what I've read makes them sound very similar. However, I've run across a few websites that either directly contrast them [for example, http://www.umich.edu/~pharm660/addrugs.pdf] or give enough specific information about both to permit a meaningful comparison [for example, http://sl.schofield3.home.att.net/medicine/psychiatric_drugs_chart.html]. Based on this, I chose desipramine because it seemed more "activating" and less likely to cause unpleasant side effects.
> Im still adjusting to the anticholinegic thing,,, are you?
Hasn't been a problem for me. Anticholinergic drugs generally don't bother me, and some I even enjoy. For example, I always found atropine to be a pleasant stimulant. But then, my neurochemistry doesn't work like most people's.
> Im thrilled you are taking the :right Medication:
Time will tell if it's really right, but for now it's a helluva lot less wrong than most other ADs I've tried.
> Spring will be awesome for you this year.
Thanks... I hope you're right.
> do you get constipation and dry mouth?
Had some mild constipation at first, but my regular regularity is so irregular that I can't be sure it was the desipramine. And I never noticed any significant mouth-drying effects.
- Bob
Posted by not exactly on February 17, 2003, at 23:45:56
In reply to Re: TCAs, posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:39:48
> Bob,I would also split my dose thruout the day!
Thanks for the tip. My pdoc had told me that there wasn't any advantage to doing that, but based on your advice I tried going to b.i.d. and noticed a significant improvement. Less side effects at the peak; more consistent benefit all day.
> I like putting some on my tongue, its so COOL how it numbs it up
> Have you noticed that on putting some Desiprimine on your tongue?Yup. Noticed that with amitriptyline too. I've heard that all TCAs do that.
- Bob
Posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 0:14:32
In reply to Re: TCAs » not exactly, posted by zeugma on February 15, 2003, at 7:05:04
> I found myself feeling a little less awful in the morning... made sleep a little more restful or something. I guess I have classic melancholic depression, and TCA"s *ARE* the preferred treatment for that.
> I have been consistently going to sleep before midnight for about a month now- I am someone who suffered from insomnia since early childhood, so I am VERY happy about that. Are your symptoms at all similar?Some of our symptoms are similar, but other aspects are quite opposite. For example, the only times I've ever had insomnia were when I've taken too high a dose of a stimulant. When unmedicated, I have no trouble falling asleep and tend towards hypersomnia. If I don't have any specific need to get out of bed (since I'm currently unemployed and live alone, this is often the case), I can easily sleep for 12 hours at a time. My main problem is anhedonia, which is often so severe that most things don't seem rewarding enough to be worth expending any effort on. Externally, it looks like depression, lack of motivation, lethargy, or ADD, but mostly it's the old WHY BOTHER syndrome. Stimulating meds help me the most.
> I was also told to try Strattera by my pdoc before it came out. But I would try desipramine first, because it seems like I would have the same problem with Strattera that I did with Prozac and Cylert- worsened sleep and appetite problems.
If that's how your neurochemistry works, you may find desipramine to be too stimulating for you. But it's definitely cheaper to try than Strattera. I recommend you start with a very small dose and take it in the morning.
- Bob
Posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 0:49:05
In reply to Not Exactly...............so , posted by missinglynxx on February 17, 2003, at 13:30:59
> what kind of problems have you had with the heavy hitters (Effexor, Celexa, Luvox)?
> I figured that would have cured you up by now?Do you consider these meds to be "heavy hitters" because of their impressive efficacy reputations? Remember, I have "treatment resistive" depression. If there's an AD that cures 95% of the folks that try it, I'll be in the other 5%. Ironically, the drugs that have helped me the most have been ones that generally DON'T help most people, including drugs that failed to get FDA approval for AD use because they weren't considered effective (such as pramipexole & transdermal selegiline).
I've never tried Celexa or Luvox because I had such negative reactions to Prozac & Paxil that I gave up on the entire SSRI category.
However, I DID try Effexor. It produced 100% remission of all my depression symptoms within 12 hours of taking the very first dose, and without any side effects! Unfortunately, over the course of the next week or two, the side effects started to build up, and the antidepressant effectiveness diminished. After a couple of months, I started to wonder if it was still doing me any good at all. So I stopped cold turkey - NO withdrawal symptoms and I began to feel BETTER also immediately after stopping Go figure.
> Oh the Buspar.......Thats one of the most interesting medications on the Planet
> Its a mystery, sure gives EVERYONE a buzzy head,reaction...
> I really thing its valuable StuffYeah, I really want to give Buspar a try, at least to satisfy my curiosity.
- Bob
Posted by missinglynxx on February 18, 2003, at 4:46:24
In reply to Re: Not Exactly..........so » missinglynxx, posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 0:49:05
Sorry about that BOB. I apoligize that I didnt realize you had treatment resistant Depression. Hence, the SSRIS made you violently sick
Im the same way... Theres always hope.'
I always assumed that An SSRI drug would cure me.. Turns out NOrtriptyline/ Abilify is THE combination for me at this juncture. Its such a relief to stick with these medications instead of having my hopes dashed on the rocks
Buspar is interesting, a good augmenting agent for your Desiprimine.. But its strong so There is no need to take MUCH per day. Take care Bob,
Posted by zeugma on February 18, 2003, at 8:15:56
In reply to Re: TCAs » zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 0:14:32
I definitely have a serious problem with overstimulation. My CNS seems to need a lot of down time... frustrating because I get worn out easily. I have only been working part time for the last couple of years because I get drained being around people and the CNS disruption (pacing, severe nervousness) gets unbearable. That's where a lot of the social anxiety comes in; I start worrying that I will unravel in front of someone, and it has happened plenty of times, making it a justified fear. At least on the nortriptyline and Buspar I am getting enough sleep so I don't feel stressed from insomnia too. I think I will stick with this combination for now. The next time I see my doctor (next month) I will ask about upping the dose of nortrip to 45 mg from 40. The extra NE should help with motivation and focus.
It's great to hear that you've been having some success with desipramine. I think Buspar might be a good adjunct for you too. It does have a dopaminergic effect so it might help the anhedonia. When I started taking 10 mg a day (5 in the morning/ 5 at night) I felt the effect right away.z
Posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 13:21:56
In reply to Re: TCAs » not exactly, posted by zeugma on February 18, 2003, at 8:15:56
> I definitely have a serious problem with overstimulation.
Is the problem _endogenous_ overstimulation or _exogenous_ overstimulation? I certainly don't have endogenous overstimulation - quite the opposite - since stimulant meds help me. But I definitely have the exogenous overstimulation problem - I'm mood-reactive and hypersensitive to external sources of irritation. I found that Neurontin helped me with that. Have you ever tried Neurontin? It might help with your social anxiety and insomnia.
> upping the dose of nortrip to 45 mg from 40
??? That sounds like an almost negligible increment. Why not 50, since it's a standard dose? (So is 25 if you want b.i.d.)
> I think Buspar might be a good adjunct for you too. It does have a dopaminergic effect so it might help the anhedonia.
That's the intriguing part. The meds that have helped me the most have been those with some dopamine-bosting effect (Mirapex, Wellbutrin, Ritalin, Dexedrine, Selegiline). I will see my pdoc in about a week and hope to get a Buspar Rx then.
> When I started taking 10 mg a day (5 in the morning/ 5 at night) I felt the effect right away.
What effect did you notice? Just a reduction in anxiety, or were there other benefits? And how soon is "right away"? Within 24 hours?
- Bob
Posted by missinglynxx on February 18, 2003, at 18:44:10
In reply to Re: TCAs » zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 13:21:56
> > I definitely have a serious problem with overstimulation.
>
> Is the problem _endogenous_ overstimulation or _exogenous_ overstimulation? I certainly don't have endogenous overstimulation - quite the opposite - since stimulant meds help me. But I definitely have the exogenous overstimulation problem - I'm mood-reactive and hypersensitive to external sources of irritation. I found that Neurontin helped me with that. Have you ever tried Neurontin? It might help with your social anxiety and insomnia.
>
> > upping the dose of nortrip to 45 mg from 40
>
> ??? That sounds like an almost negligible increment. Why not 50, since it's a standard dose? (So is 25 if you want b.i.d.)
>
> > I think Buspar might be a good adjunct for you too. It does have a dopaminergic effect so it might help the anhedonia.
>
> That's the intriguing part. The meds that have helped me the most have been those with some dopamine-bosting effect (Mirapex, Wellbutrin, Ritalin, Dexedrine, Selegiline). I will see my pdoc in about a week and hope to get a Buspar Rx then.
>
> > When I started taking 10 mg a day (5 in the morning/ 5 at night) I felt the effect right away.
>
> What effect did you notice? Just a reduction in anxiety, or were there other benefits? And how soon is "right away"? Within 24 hours?
>
> - Bob
>I have an important question. Where did you guys hear the Buspar affects Dopamine?
I thought it was a Serotonin oriented medication
and why isnt it used more????!
Is it dangerous haha..... (like the Raelean CULT haha)
Posted by zeugma on February 18, 2003, at 20:04:56
In reply to Re: TCAs » zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 13:21:56
> > I definitely have a serious problem with overstimulation.
>
> Is the problem _endogenous_ overstimulation or _exogenous_ overstimulation? I certainly don't have endogenous overstimulation - quite the opposite - since stimulant meds help me. But I definitely have the exogenous overstimulation problem - I'm mood-reactive and hypersensitive to external sources of irritation. I found that Neurontin helped me with that. Have you ever tried Neurontin? It might help with your social anxiety and insomnia.Exogeneous overstimulation. The few times I've been in a video arcade prove that. More seriously, I pick up on others' feelings quickly, this is both a good thing and a bad thing. If people around me start acting weird, I get freaked out too. Jobs where I have to deal with the public are always a problem for this reason. It's hard for me to maintain my calm around people when I feel so easily influenced by their moods.
>
> > upping the dose of nortrip to 45 mg from 40
>
> ??? That sounds like an almost negligible increment. Why not 50, since it's a standard dose? (So is 25 if you want b.i.d.)I started nortrip at 20 mg, immediately became irritable and quit my job- as I've posted here a while ago, this was a good thing in the long run, but was unsettling at the time. It took more than a month to get up to 30 mg between the irritability and orthostatic hypotension. 40 then was too much- went to 35 instead and spent a month or two there. Went up to 40, end of November. My experience has been that 10 mg increments cause too much hypotension. 5 mg will get me another 5 mg from a standard dose. Plus I've gained a few pounds on this stuff, so I think it's time to bump it up a little. (weight gain is healthy for me.)
>
> > I think Buspar might be a good adjunct for you too. It does have a dopaminergic effect so it might help the anhedonia.
>
> That's the intriguing part. The meds that have helped me the most have been those with some dopamine-bosting effect (Mirapex, Wellbutrin, Ritalin, Dexedrine, Selegiline). I will see my pdoc in about a week and hope to get a Buspar Rx then.
Buspar is said to be good for movement disorders and maybe Parkinson's too. It seems to have helped with my bruxism.
>
> > When I started taking 10 mg a day (5 in the morning/ 5 at night) I felt the effect right away.
>
> What effect did you notice? Just a reduction in anxiety, or were there other benefits? And how soon is "right away"? Within 24 hours?
>
Within 24 hours. I was noticeably calmer and had an easier time socializing. Consistent with its dopaminergic effect, too, I noticed that it improved libido and sexual sensation.
> - Bob
> z
Posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 23:37:50
In reply to Re: TCAszeugma and Bob, posted by missinglynxx on February 18, 2003, at 18:44:10
> Where did you guys hear the Buspar affects Dopamine?
> I thought it was a Serotonin oriented medicationhttp://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030125/msgs/137560.html
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/busmech.htm
http://sl.schofield3.home.att.net/medicine/psychiatric_drugs_chart.html> and why isnt it used more????!
Posted by LAURA777 on March 12, 2003, at 7:53:07
In reply to Re: fighting anhedonia by increasing reward pathway, posted by JohnL on January 25, 2003, at 5:27:22
Hey John , anhedonia is what i battle with also , prozac helped me with impulsiveness and anxiousness , but i still have the anhedonia , the p-doc perscribed risperdal .05 mgs once a day at nite , ..
could you please tell me exactly what this does ?
i know that it is a antagonist for the d2 receptor and the 5htp 2 receptor , but what does that exactly mean ??
does it take away dopamine ??? serotonin ?? does it give you more ??? Please let me know because i am very curious to know , thanks for your time , laura
Posted by ravenstorm on March 24, 2004, at 10:39:33
In reply to Re: Not Exactly..........so » missinglynxx, posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 0:49:05
> > what kind of problems have you had with the heavy hitters (Effexor, Celexa, Luvox)?
> > I figured that would have cured you up by now?
>
> Do you consider these meds to be "heavy hitters" because of their impressive efficacy reputations? Remember, I have "treatment resistive" depression. If there's an AD that cures 95% of the folks that try it, I'll be in the other 5%. Ironically, the drugs that have helped me the most have been ones that generally DON'T help most people, including drugs that failed to get FDA approval for AD use because they weren't considered effective (such as pramipexole & transdermal selegiline).
>
> I've never tried Celexa or Luvox because I had such negative reactions to Prozac & Paxil that I gave up on the entire SSRI category.
>
> However, I DID try Effexor. It produced 100% remission of all my depression symptoms within 12 hours of taking the very first dose, and without any side effects! Unfortunately, over the course of the next week or two, the side effects started to build up, and the antidepressant effectiveness diminished. After a couple of months, I started to wonder if it was still doing me any good at all. So I stopped cold turkey - NO withdrawal symptoms and I began to feel BETTER also immediately after stopping Go figure.
>
> > Oh the Buspar.......Thats one of the most interesting medications on the Planet
> > Its a mystery, sure gives EVERYONE a buzzy head,reaction...
> > I really thing its valuable Stuff
>
> Yeah, I really want to give Buspar a try, at least to satisfy my curiosity.
>
> - Bob
>How did you get to try the transdermal selegiline patch?
This is the end of the thread.
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