![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5795 to 5819 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
In reply to Re: tapering off, posted by maxx44 on December 3, 2003, at 19:47:16
Xaxax can be VERY addictive. Doctors DO have trouble weaning their patients off it. It is a street drug because it can, depending upon the person and the specific circumstance, produce a brief "high". Some doctors call this "euphoria". Other doctors (and I) call it an "antidepressant effect" - it's simply a choice of words. (It is a great motivator to lift your spirits just enough to get started on those dread projects you have been procrastinating about for so long. It is DANGEROUS to anyone with a predisposition toward addiction. On all this we agree 100%.
OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN: in my opinion, Xanax is the most efficacious drug ever invented to control panic attacks. It is a surperb medicine for anxiety and all types of anxiety attacks A small dose literally killed off my SEVERE Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD). It has a very short half-life. The subjective effects last no more than 90 minutes. Check the pharmacology. Thus, the duration of the benzodiazapine-inflicted memory and cognitive loss are of minimal duration.
Doctors like to prescribe Klonapin (Clonazapam, Rivital) instead of Xanax. It IS LESS ADDICTIVE. There is no "high" or "motivational effect". It also has subjective effects that last SIX HOURS. My experience is that I have TOTAL AMNESIA for those six hours. I can't tell my boss what I've been doing all day at work because I CAN'T REMEMBER. And all that assummes I've managed to stay awake. I find Klonapin to be VERY SEDATING and that it TOTALLY IMPAIRS my COGNITIVE FUNCTIONING. I am a software engineer. It almost got me fired. I literally can't sustain a train of thought or reason on Klonapin. Others have had better experiencies.
Xanax, on the other hand, "wakes me up" (I KNOW that that it impairs memory and thinking like all benzos, so this is partly an illusion - I also know that this "wake up" can be called "euphoria" or "antidepressant"...that's a semantic distiction). But it gets me going, calms me down, protects me from SAD and anxiety most of the day (even though it's subjective effects last only 90 minutes, it breaks the vicious cycle of anxiety and protects me long after it's direct action has ceased.) I can remember what I did at the end of the day. I can focus and reason, and remember what happened, even during the drugs "active" period. (I know there must be SOME impairment, but it is NOTHING comared with other benzos - I can suceed at my job). It is truly a MIRACULOUS MEDICINE and, for those who can take it WITHOUT ABUSING IT, it can be a Blessing...a Gift from God!
Who can take it without abusing it? Do you have an "addictive personality"? (You KNOW if you do!)
Do you have a history of alchohol and/or drug abuse, even a long time ago? If so, DO NOT ATTEMPT XANAX!If you do NOT have an addictive personality and no history of substance abuse, feel free to CAUTIOUSLY try Xanax if your symptoms call for it. It can ease needless psychological agony. It can assist you through periods where your pain is beyond endurance. It can control anxiety attacks of all kinds. You may need a full 1 mg dose (some people even need 2 or 3 mgs - 0.5mg does it for most people). If your doctor prescribes a certain dose and it does not address your symptoms, call you doctor and tell him/her. Have the dose changed through your dctor and pharmacy. But do not EVER take more than prescribed!
If you take Xanax for GOOD CAUSE (normal anxiety that we all feel is part of life and NOT "good cause"), and it helps, that is GOOD! If it MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD, there is nothing wrong with that!
If you feel the urge to take MORE than prescribed, especially during the subjectively active period of the drugs action, place yourself on ALERT! Resist! Do not take more than prescribed. It's OKAY to WANT more. But you may NOT take more.
If you DO take more than prescribed (more than one time, anyway), then XANAX is NOT FOR YOU! CALL your doctor IMMEDIATELY and tell him or her that you are taking more than prescribed. You MUST get off from it with your doctor's help and find an alternative. If you act quickly, there should be very minimal, if any, withdrawl consequences. This is one blessing you may not have because the risks outweigh the benefits. Resign yourself to that.
Dogmatic Docs: If you honestly feel Xanax is what you need, explain why to your doctor. Your doc should ask questios about past substance abuse and addictions, etc. If you admit to these, and the doctor refuses to give you Xanax, the doctor is probably making the best decision for you.
However, if you PASS this "screening", or worse, the doctor refuses to "screan" at all, and simply rejects the idea of Xanax out of hand, you may have a "dogmatic doc". This medicine CAN control terrible suffering and save lives. It IS worth consideration. Some doctors mistake, "First of all, do no harm" for "Never take any chances". They may not conciously realize that nearly every medical treatment they sanction carries RISK. This risk is no different. But cut the doc some slack. They may have been over-indoctrinated about the risks of Xanax. They may have had bad experiences with patients who DID become severely and dysfunctionally addicted.
BY ALL MEANS, DO FEEL FREE TO CHECK WITH ANOTHER DOC WITH A MORE OPEN MIND!
The prescribing of any medicine, even a non-addictive antdepressant like Prozac or Zoloft, entails significant risks. A high per centage of the population are taking these modern (but soon to be obsolete) antidepressants. Their negative side-effects are just now being discovered and openly acknowledged. The risks and side-effects are extraordinarily signigicant. Like Xanax, the benefits can control suffering and free people to lead ordinary lives.
The prescription of any medicine is a JUDGEMENT CALL. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE FOR PSYCHOTROPICS. Sorry, medical science will not be able to "CALCULATE" the correct medicine for you in our life time. (Still, there has, and continues to be, extraordinary, rapid progress. There is just SO FAR to go prior to a final understanding.)
Best of luck and blessings...
Posted by loni on December 3, 2003, at 22:00:30
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
Xanax is the reason that I LOVE Ativan. Love it. Love it. None of the Xanax strangeness. All of the calm on a VERY low dose.
Posted by burnedout on December 3, 2003, at 23:20:47
In reply to Re: Lawsuit Anyone? » Sufferfromeffexor, posted by zeugma on October 15, 2003, at 21:15:22
I am sorry to hear of your battle with Effexor.
I too went through the same thing.Finally, I put a paper on the wall and marked the days that I had been off.
It took, I think 39 days before I finally came out enough to have some control. But the third day of being without the drug was the hardest. After that, things, slowly got better.
I'm surprised that Wyeth didn't give you the info on how to get off it.
They put after three transfers to a lady who only took information from people who were haveing trouble.
She gave me very precise instructions--these by the way are NOT what is published and what the doctors have. But she was very nice.
I have a friend who works on educating people on these things. She was representing or rather giving expert testemony in court, for a family, where the father came off the Effexor and during the discontinuation killed his family and himself. As it turned out, his wife was one of the people who worked at Wyeth, taking the phone calls from people having trouble--but even she didn't see what was happening.
I hope she wasn't the lady that was so kind to me. It happened just shortly after I had talked to this person.
Effexor-XR should be, in my opinion, destroyed and the people who push it--somehow made to go through what we've gone through (I was on it for only 5 weeks!) But it was costly and now I fight every day to just stay alive, as I awake, being shocked when I move my eyes and my head roars with tinnitus.
My therapist won't let me say "I can't stand it." So I won't. But if I could I would. --when you pass out from pain, as I did coming off the stuff is that an "I can't stand it?"
I wish you luck on getting off it.
You CAN do it. And the sooner the better, but don't go fast unless you have to. Try dropping 18.5/mg/day for four days--see how you do--if ok, drop off another 18.5--.That's what I was told by Wyeth.
The doctor's recommendation is to do it over two-weeks!
Once you are free of it--fight as hard as you can to stay off--I had to count seconds, between the tears--I a 55 year old male.
I was told by my pdoc that the 3rd day would be the worst--that if we could get through that and all that was going on and have no seizures, then it would slowly get better.
He was right. The third day was a day of lying on the ground, or rather falling on the floor in pain, passing out, crying, hurting, sweating, shaking, blacking-out.
If you taper more than I did, I don't think you will have it so bad, but it will still be bad.
Some people use a benzo to help them get through it. I didn't. I wish I had.
There is also a drug, commonly given in the U.K. and Canada to help people survive the "discontinuation" effects of Effexor, but I don't remember its name. It is one that is commenly used to help people fight the ill effects of chemotherapy. That might be helpful.
But you can do it. I wish there was a class action. I have an attorney who says if he can get enough people he might do it. But if there's one in the works, I'd like to know too.
God bless --I know what it's like.
Posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 23:23:08
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by loni on December 3, 2003, at 22:00:30
Goodness, we're all so different in our reaction to medications! Ativan. even at a 1mg dose, does NOTHING for me. It doesn't stop panic attacks, calm anxiety or relax me. It's like swallowing air.
I certainly don't question your experience, though. Glad it works for you!
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 0:32:46
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:59:17
very low dose? infrequent use? temporary surgical or colonoscopy 'knock-out'---? ok---but that's very few in tens of millions. xanax, unlike other benzos, increase DHEA plasma levels---muscle-builders use it for this. you feel great. strong. i know, been there---i'm the best example you may present--'cardiac sphinter damage', inoperable and a chronic cause of 'life-threatening panic', by that i mean panic terminating in convultions, killing asthma, immobile in terror for hours, ekg's wild--- touch my body, feels as grabbing a vibrator. and you know panic? i have several issues with your base of data. 1st, casual users tend to tolerance and become more frequent users. that's a fact. 2nd, i have an 'addictive personality', although many studies call that myth. i smoke. but that has nothing to do with either 'hiatal hernia' or 'cardiac sphincter' damage. those medical conditions are known to be directly involved in panic. i am 'cleared' for life on benzos. i don't want them. for instance, you're an IT? were you on xanax when studying, or getting your work? if you were not, you may regrettably, given enough time, find those very skills 'somehow' vanishing. and to finish on 'addictive personality'---i assure you, daily use---from a month or more---you'll discover you are addicted. personality or not. this is commonly known. should i retract, even with pysical injury causing panic, retreat from warning potential 'accidental addicts', even if You Think you may handle it? no way! very few may use this drug family safely. some may. they don't concern me. it's john stuart mills, or kant's 'categorical imperative'---the greatest good for the greatest number. that concerns me.
3rd---DHEA elevation from xanax promotes tumor growth. you'd best have semi-annual exams, certainly digital and PSA tests done. hope you understand my position and reasoning. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 0:56:12
In reply to Re: Lawsuit Anyone?, posted by burnedout on December 3, 2003, at 23:20:47
i didn't wish to stress the 'effexor-induced' violence, as it's noted with many newer ADs and the benzos---i did mention the ongoing 'columbine, colorado litigation'---thanks you, for the extra canon. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:21:55
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:59:01
lot of multiple posts, clayton (love the name), but i must say, re. klonopin---you don't know what you're talking about. the mark of a gentleman is to accept dissagreement and not be angry. no one considers klonopin less addictive--quite the opposite---some drs., mistakenly think it's longer half-life, as valim, librium, etc., makes it safer. my second wife was addicted to klonopin. it destroyed a brilliant career. i was switched to klonopin for a month. precipitated depression, a common complaint, and after being switched back, i was amazed to feel bugs crawling on me for 2 weeks, a typical klonopin withdrawal symptom even librium could not stop. erudition has its place. but no print may equal the actual experience of being shot in the foot. savvy? regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:45:57
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
clayton---you're multiple identical post make me feel as if you're comforting yourself about a xanax problem. or a drug co. employee. either way, i'm no IT, but got the gist of how not to make duplicate posts fast.---i have 50 mails from around the world to answer---your fate is your biz---you 'clog' my inbox by intent---it becomes my biz and dr. bobs. regards
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 6:58:56
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:45:57
You seem to be the angry one, my friend. Perhaps even bitter (my subjective opinion). Peace! Please!
I had just about finished a LONG post to you and was "booted", wiping it out. I am so upset. I agree with more of what you say than you realize, as I was explaining in my obliterated post.
It's 4:00 AM here and maybe I can find time to reconstruct that post tomorrow. You might be surprised at how much we agree.
I DID NOT "CLOG" YOUR IN BOX ON PURPOSE! That is an unfounded, slanderous allegation but you are forgiven for making it. I have no idea how the multiple posts got there! I would never do such a thing. What would it accomplish? What on earth would it accomplish? Please be polite and rational.
For now, consider only this. I've have Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) for decades. Read about the long term prospects for sufferers of this disorder. XANAX SAVED MY LIFE. IT SAVED MY CAREER. IT SAVED MY SOUL.
For people with Panic Disorders, Xanax should remain in the toolbox. These days, other things, such as antidepressants and other benzos should usually be tried first. Lots of things can be tried first.
Xanax CAN BE dangerous. For most people, it's use should be planned as temporary from inception. Patients should be fully warned of ALL the dangers so that they can make an informed decision...just as with any medication.
I have seen several people use Xanax for years without increasing frequency or bumping the dose.
But I will not disagree that many people will do just that. Howevever, not a scintilla of a per cent will progress to using it as a steroid!My friend, you took Xanax to increase your DHEA levels? Why not just take DHEA? It's available over the counter and inexpensive. You did not simply increase the frequency of use or bump your dose. You misused Xanax in an EPIC (and to my mind -- my opinion only -- , perverse way).
How much did you take? Why in God's name did you use it as a steroid? You used it for a purpose completely contrary to that for which it is prescribed. You KNEW you were doing this at the time. What do you expect when you misuse a drug so utterly and completely?My advice, for whatever it's worth, from the bottom of my heart, is to come to terms with your present status and go on from here. Make the best of it. Don't be bitter. Face the fact that you profligately and recklessly misused and abused a drug. Then forgive yourself and make peace with it.
Read the posts on the substance abuse board by people who damaged their brains with amphetamines. You'll find a couple there by ME. Many of these people have made marvelous progress at forgiveness, acceptance and productively getting on with their lives. They are at PEACE! Read BarbaraCat's marvelous posts in particular. They helped me quite a bit.
By the way, I am now benzodiazapine-free myself. I was lucky and found a combination of two anti-depressants that put my SAD, depression and insomnia (that I have endured for decades) into total remission. I quit Xanax, without being prompted by my doc, cold turkey, and never missed it or craved it or looked back or had a single withdrawal symptom. (But it did save my life.) The Doc had substitutd Klonipin for Xanax. I flushed it (I found it sedating, mentally impairing and depressing). I don't want it. I will never go back. Just like you. I love this feeling of having a clear and uncompromised mind!
I'll try to write more tomorrow. My argument is that Xanax should remain in the toolbox as an option -- one among many and not necessarily a first choice -- only. If you really want to debate THAT, you're on!. It will be interesting and if you score points I will gladly acknowledge them.
Best Regards and Best Wishes. I look forward to a constuctive and open-minded, civil dialog.
Clayton
Posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
I find Xanax to be much too sedating. It puts me to sleep. I remember my first horrendous major panic attack...seemed like it lasted for days, and on a holiday weekend. I called the pdoc on call and explained the situation. I told him that I took xanax (previously prescribed for control of anxiety during airplane travel) but that it made me too sleepy. He said "Would you rather panic or be sleepy?". A lot of good that did. I haven't called after hours since then. Once the weekend was over I was able to see my pdoc and he prescribed Ativan, which was really a miracle for me. It controlled my anxiety without making me tired or 'out of it'. It really does break the cycle of anxiety and I wonder if I shouldn't be taking it more often than I am. I use maybe 5 pills of .5 mg every month. The prescription for 60 with two refills on it that I recently had filled should last me for years. My doc asks me every time I see him if I need more.
I've never tried klonopin.
Posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 8:23:04
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
coming from someone who has had great success on this med for about a year, and was naieve enough to not even know that people were suffering from all of these side effects until I accidentally found this site yesterday, it does work wonders for some.....I hope those people wont be scared off, because if I saw these posts prior to taking it, I would not have tried it!
In my situation, I did not have severe depression or severe panic attacks, but more, I think, a lot of stress, and had gotten to the point that I could not always control my anxities. When I got home from work at the end of the day, and my husband and kids were all getting home, that was the worst. It was all I could do to not scream "everyone get the "F" away from me, let me have a glass of wine, a ciggarette, cook dinner, and then maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to sit down and talk to everyone about their day!"
Now I enjoy all of the kid questions and the good and bad parts of their days. And I enjoy sharing mine with them.
Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I am so grateful for feeling this way. It was the 4th or 5th med I tried. Some didn't work at all. Some worked for a month or so. This has worked consistently for a year, with no side effects. I also forgot to take it on vacation once, and not knowing the terrible ramifications from withdrawl, thought that I had altitude sickness in Utah! I got the brain having trouble keeping up with the skull thing after about 3 days. Then was perfectly fine after getting back on it. When I did it the 2nd time, I figured it out!
Well shame on my doc, and shame on me for not being more educated But again, I'm glad hearing all the possible side effects didn't have the chance of scaring me off.
I have a better relationship with myself and everyone around me, and I attribute it to effexor helping me to think rationally enough to do that!
Posted by loni on December 4, 2003, at 8:24:51
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:45:57
Maxx & Clayton--
The multiple post thing happened to me yesterday as well. I did not intend it and it showed up 4 times. Glitch in the system right now I imagine.
Also, everyone's biochemistry is SO different. Someone's savior is another one's pain. That is why it IS so hard to treat these illnesses.
I used to cry in my pDoc's office, praying for a blood test--anything--that would show definitively what was the best med for me. I was one of the tougher nuts to crack and we knew that would be an issue. Eleven years of med trials later (I am so glad that others are able to find relief much more quickly) and I am on something that "does it" for me. For now. I still wonder about the day it stops working.
Peace.
Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 8:29:35
In reply to anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 8:23:04
Me too!!!
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:21:55
Hey Maxx,
1. The multiple posts are a mystery to me. I'm sorrry. My computer seems glitchy. Maybe, I'm a clutz with the mouse tonight. I just do not know. But think please. What possible motive would I have for doing this on purpose?
2. Here's a quote from your post:
"the mark of a gentleman is to accept dissagreement and not be angry"
I invite you to carefully reread our exchange and honestly tell me who has evinced anger.
3. You have, without provocation, crudely accussed me of many things including "not knowing what I was talking about" to being the employee of a drug company. And much more. All I did was to express PARTIAL disagreement with you.
I have personal experience with every drug I have mentioned.
4.You have "overgeneralized" in tyring to make your points. In so doing, you have managed to make no point at all. For example:
"you don't know what you're talking about...no one considers klonopin less addictive...my second wife was addicted to klonopin. it destroyed a brilliant career"
I consider Klonapin less addictive than Xanax. (That's one more than "no one".)It doesn't give me that "antidepressant boost" or "euphoria" like Xanax. I find it depressing. My pdoc considers it less adddictive than Xanax. And if you would like web links to respected medical literature that demonstarate many doctors consider it less addictive than Xanax, I will supply them. (Although you can find them yourself!)
I am sincerely sorry that your second wife was harmed by Klonapin. But that's only ONE example and it proves no general case whatsoever. It does NOT support the case that Klonapin is not less addictive than Xanax at all! I NEVER said that Klonapin had NO abuse potential. Surly it DOES!
(I do know how it feels. I have battled addictions to several substances. (In the last year, at age 53, I finally beat them all including cigarettes. I don't miss any of them) My two youger brothers are hopeless alchoholics and cocaine addicts. I know how it feels. I am so sorry about your wife.)
5. You have jumped to all sorts of conclusions about what I think and then argued with me for believing things I don't believe and never said. Th irony is that I AGREE with you about so many of these things. For example, you said:
"i was switched to klonopin for a month. precipitated depression, a common complaint, and after being switched back, i was amazed to feel bugs crawling on me for 2 weeks, a typical klonopin withdrawal symptom".
The truth is that I find Klonapin VERY depressing. It is also over sedating, gives me total amnesia for the six hours it is active and utterly destoys my ability to sustain a train of thought. I REALLY HATE IT! After my Pdoc switched me to Klonapin from Xanax, it took me about a weeek to flush it down the toilet. I never went back to the Xanax, either. Not one tablet. And I didn't miss it and I had no withdrawl symptoms from Xanax or Klonpin. Don't miss cigarettes a bit either.
I'm just LUCKY with the lack of withdrawal symptoms. I know it's much tougher for others. I'm not "strong", just lucky. We all react differently.
I have been to hell and back as a result of drug use. I understand suffering as well as anyone.
Frankly, maybe you can help me. I have ONE close friend in the world (which is one more than some people with SADs have). He is about to swallow his first Effexor capsule. I am scared to death for him. I have sent him posts from Psycho-Babble but I don't think he reads them. Any ideas on what I can do?
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:38:56
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
Stick with the Ativan. Klonipin is MUCH more sedating than Xanax. It is a much heavier drug.
You are the perfect example of why these medicines should be kept around. You use them sparingly as needed and don't abuse them.
Good Work.
Posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
In reply to anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 8:23:04
> coming from someone who has had great success on this med for about a year, and was naieve enough to not even know that people were suffering from all of these side effects until I accidentally found this site yesterday, it does work wonders for some.....I hope those people wont be scared off, because if I saw these posts prior to taking it, I would not have tried it!
> In my situation, I did not have severe depression or severe panic attacks, but more, I think, a lot of stress, and had gotten to the point that I could not always control my anxities. When I got home from work at the end of the day, and my husband and kids were all getting home, that was the worst. It was all I could do to not scream "everyone get the "F" away from me, let me have a glass of wine, a ciggarette, cook dinner, and then maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to sit down and talk to everyone about their day!"
> Now I enjoy all of the kid questions and the good and bad parts of their days. And I enjoy sharing mine with them.
> Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I am so grateful for feeling this way. It was the 4th or 5th med I tried. Some didn't work at all. Some worked for a month or so. This has worked consistently for a year, with no side effects. I also forgot to take it on vacation once, and not knowing the terrible ramifications from withdrawl, thought that I had altitude sickness in Utah! I got the brain having trouble keeping up with the skull thing after about 3 days. Then was perfectly fine after getting back on it. When I did it the 2nd time, I figured it out!
> Well shame on my doc, and shame on me for not being more educated But again, I'm glad hearing all the possible side effects didn't have the chance of scaring me off.
> I have a better relationship with myself and everyone around me, and I attribute it to effexor helping me to think rationally enough to do that!
Hi: Happy to hear E works for you! I, too am pleased with the changes brought about by this medication. I am into my ninth week. I still have occasional sweats and some minor sexual side effects. But, saying goodbye, at least for now to the overwhelming anxiety, irritability, and anger has been wonderful. Something you stated made me smile. Prior to Effexor, I would come home from work and not want anyone to talk to me until I was completely relaxed. Now, I come home with a smile and am ready to hear about everyone's day. My mind has stopped racing at warp speed and I can actually think and speak clearly. I must say I have been horrified by all of the negative reaction to Effexor on these boards. Hopefully, it will continue working for me. Thanks for sharing your positive experience.
Posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
All these benzos are supposed to help us.
I think they are all labeled for short-term use (maybe I'm wrong)?bUT i HAVE to agree that over time, unless your body is exceptional, they will become addicting--dependent, just like an SSRI anti-depressant.
My pdoc is one who ranks the order of worse to least as Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin. He tells me that K. is very nearly the same as Ativan, except it has a much longer life in the system --many days, instead of a few hours. So that is why he believes that it will be easier to come off it. The change won't be so abrupt as with Xanax or Ativan. But that doesn't mean coming off will not be without difficulty.
I see his reasoning. Most of what I have read says that if you've used any of these for longer than two weeks, you are at risk.Since I've been working with Ativan, I learned that at 3 mg/day you are boarderline safe, but at 4 mg/day, if you suddenly stop, you are almost sure to have a seizure. I imagine the same would hold true for Xanax
But, as the previous writer said--given the choice of a major panic episode [and one that can spiral depression down so quickly, that you don't even know your in a panic attack--and then be faced with suicide], --which is better? The benzo or the suffering & possibly a tragic death?
Since my doc feels Klonopin is the least of the "evils," we've now switched from Ativan to Klopin. But we used as a measure the dose of Ativan I took to guage how much Klonopin to take.
If Xanax is the only thing that will work, then that's what it has to be. But if you can move to something that has a longer life, I think it would be a little safer--if you had to stop abruptly. Maybe you could try going to one of the other benzos, using the Xanax as a guide for the doseage, and keep going down.
I think that whatever we are having to take is going to eventually fail. And then we will have to bump the dose up to get the same effect. My doc says when that happens, it shows that the body has become dependent on the dose and no longer uses it as a medicine, but as something it needs. That's when instead of upping the dose, we need to try and move it down.
Our plan is fairly simple but very hard to do.
It's been shown through MRI studies that thoughts can stimulate the same parts of the brain and alter how it responds, just as the medicines.
If the Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin are working, then NOW is the time to try and retrain our thinking so it can take control, instead of the drug. This is our window of opportunity--who knows how long it will stay open?
I don't think any of us want to be taking medicines. We'd like to be well. we pray (some of us to be well--I given up on that, and pray now for the strength to endure each day).
We are in a tough spot(s) my friends--and I am new here--I hope we will all be friends and compassionate to one another.
These symptoms we have and the medicines we are using to try and stop them, please remember, are symptoms of the illness and NOT us.
We as people, are ok. Don't let the illness fool you--short-circuit your thinking into believing it is you that is messed up. You are ok. The illness is not--and I don't think any of us wanted to be ill. --just as if we have been run over by a truck, we--ourselves--are not the cause of the suffering, but the suffering is caused by symptoms of the injuries--just as with Panic, PTSD, GAD, Depression, stress/anxiety.It is not our fault. Even if we foolishly stepped out in front of the truck, all it means is we made a mistake--just as every human does. So, don't get down on yourself for being human.
By the way too, I too worked in IT, for INTEL in fact. Because of my former employer, I suffered totally disabling Mj. depression, PTSD, panic, etc.
Everyday at Intel, I was taking Ativan 3 mg /d.
I was able to function fine.But every day, when I got on the interstate, I would have a small panic as I drove the car on the same route I took to where the damage took place.
I was able to control these, by facing them, and using therapy techniques to get them subdued and stoped.
I enjoyed INTEL very much. I was fully awake, no sense of panic, no sense of unable to connect thoughts (or maybe just no sense at all?).
But there came a day, when driving, that I was not able to control the panic. My thoughts couldn't help, the Ativan seemed to have quit. I arrived at work--went into a full blown Panic Attack, which also brought on Asthma.
They had to call the EMTs.
I lost all sense of time. I thought the EMTs had been there for only a few minutes, but found out I had been being worked on for three hours.
Finally, I was carried out of INTEL on a strecther and taken by ambulance to the hospital.There, what did they do? They gave me a shot of benedryl (we later found out I was allergic to the medicine I had been taking for asthma) and MORE Ativan.
Eventually, everything subsided. Intel wanted me back. That I was glad for. Since then though, I have had to stop work entirely.
The drugs are going to fail us. We are intelligent enough to know that is (just guessing) probably 99% true.
It's a scary situation. But the alternative is worse. I just hope we can find a way to beat some of this by changing our way of thinking, before it is too late.
If we are having a respite from the Panic/Anxiety/PTSD/GAD (SAD by the way is Seasonal Affective disorder--depression when you loose light--as in higher lattitudes in the winter--GAD is the "generalized--long term anxiety" disorder), Depression, then let's use this time as wisely as we can to get something in place to help us when the medicine becomes our enemy instead of helper.
I pray that for myself and us all, we will have something in place, something we've learned while we can, that will help us through the trials.
--I know, this has been too long and rambling--
but please, don't rely on the meds to work forever--work hard to build the coping skills, to let the brain, through practice, think thoughts that will help it get well.
Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
Clayton...not to jump in on your conversation with Maxx but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth regarding your friend and taking Effexor....I understand your concern after reading so much here and other sites....but as we all know the med reacts differently in everyone. I am going on 3 months now and stil have no s/e nor do I feel the least bit medicated. I was on Paxil for over 2 years and I feel much better on E. If your friend has been prescribed E it must have been for a good reason....if he has tried other avenues to alleviate whatever he is suffering from and has found no relief than maybe just some support and encouragement w/ a little advice is just the right approach. Again..just my 2 cents!!
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:52:13
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by loni on December 4, 2003, at 8:24:51
Hey, thanks form helping to make peace here! I would never have done those multiple posts on purpose. What would I gain?
By the way, the days when the docs can "calcualte" the right med for you are years off. We know so much but we know so little.
Until them, all we can do is educate ourselves as best we can, choose the best docs we can and then make our best juggement as to whether or not to accept the docs best judgement on a med recomendation. That IS the state od the art.
WE must still use our best judgement and if it doesn't work out, we try again.
Good Luck!
Posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 10:03:57
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
Moose - thank you as well...isn't it nice when we can focus on what's important in life?!
MBL> > coming from someone who has had great success on this med for about a year, and was naieve enough to not even know that people were suffering from all of these side effects until I accidentally found this site yesterday, it does work wonders for some.....I hope those people wont be scared off, because if I saw these posts prior to taking it, I would not have tried it!
> > In my situation, I did not have severe depression or severe panic attacks, but more, I think, a lot of stress, and had gotten to the point that I could not always control my anxities. When I got home from work at the end of the day, and my husband and kids were all getting home, that was the worst. It was all I could do to not scream "everyone get the "F" away from me, let me have a glass of wine, a ciggarette, cook dinner, and then maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to sit down and talk to everyone about their day!"
> > Now I enjoy all of the kid questions and the good and bad parts of their days. And I enjoy sharing mine with them.
> > Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I am so grateful for feeling this way. It was the 4th or 5th med I tried. Some didn't work at all. Some worked for a month or so. This has worked consistently for a year, with no side effects. I also forgot to take it on vacation once, and not knowing the terrible ramifications from withdrawl, thought that I had altitude sickness in Utah! I got the brain having trouble keeping up with the skull thing after about 3 days. Then was perfectly fine after getting back on it. When I did it the 2nd time, I figured it out!
> > Well shame on my doc, and shame on me for not being more educated But again, I'm glad hearing all the possible side effects didn't have the chance of scaring me off.
> > I have a better relationship with myself and everyone around me, and I attribute it to effexor helping me to think rationally enough to do that!
> Hi: Happy to hear E works for you! I, too am pleased with the changes brought about by this medication. I am into my ninth week. I still have occasional sweats and some minor sexual side effects. But, saying goodbye, at least for now to the overwhelming anxiety, irritability, and anger has been wonderful. Something you stated made me smile. Prior to Effexor, I would come home from work and not want anyone to talk to me until I was completely relaxed. Now, I come home with a smile and am ready to hear about everyone's day. My mind has stopped racing at warp speed and I can actually think and speak clearly. I must say I have been horrified by all of the negative reaction to Effexor on these boards. Hopefully, it will continue working for me. Thanks for sharing your positive experience.
>
>
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:06:35
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
Thank you for the wonderful post. It was beautiful, well-written and highly intelligent.
You have said so many things that I have been trying to say but you have said them so much better.
Yes, the meds will fail.
In the end, all we have is each other.
In the end, all we can do is try to make each others' mortal presence a bit brighter and less painful.
There are many graet mysteries and wonderful diversions in life. But in the final analysis, the only thing of real worth is other human beings.
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
Thank you for your kindness in writting. The stories I have read on Psyco-babble have been enough to give me nightmares.
I appreciate your point of view because I must soon make a decision on a new AD. I have been completely immune to side-effects and withdrawal effects from all other ADs and Benzos I've tried. I seem to be lucky that way. Perhaps I should take a chance on Effexor. I KNOW I need to boost norepinephrine as-well-as seratonin. I have also been told by good sources that if Effexor works for you, it is "solid gold".
Please keep me up-to-date and let me know how you are doing. I have a big decision to make.
Thanks so very much!
Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 10:59:35
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » camel, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
Clayton...you are most welcome. I think it comes down to whatever works for you...run with it!!! From what I can tell reading here...if Effexor is going to give you problems it will happen VERY rapidly. Good luck to you and your friend. K
Posted by gator58 on December 4, 2003, at 12:11:15
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 10:59:35
How long is too long to be on Xanax? I'm in my third year.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 16:38:30
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
hi. are you speaking of xanax or effexor? if xanax, how much/day?---makes everybody feel great---so it's become a major 'street-drug'. if you use daily, please don't just run-out--if you're talking xanax or any benzo, that would explain utah. how did you find a dr. to script it? very rare these days, unless you've the empty bottle. even then, now, most will turn you away---unwise as they should know you must taper benzos and be kind, leaving that deal to your primary dr. recovering long-term daily benzo users is considered a cake-walk vs. heroin, alcohol, ADs, etc. any dr. now scripting a benzo for just aniety, may lose liscense to practice---fact not hearsay. disabling panic, terminal illness, or low-dose infrequent use---ok. i'd think moderate
red-wine safer for 'general anxiety'. check out dr. heather ashton's site. and benzos.org.uk--if you're using xanax daily. regards
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