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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by estorianna on November 13, 2003, at 18:55:10
Dear John and Linkadge
Thank you both so much for your very explicit, coherent - yet subjectively-based replies. You have helped me understand a great deal from your perspective. My brother lived alone. Died alone. After caring for our mother for years day and night, on and on, his life required a total rehash after she died. He did this so successfully (it seemed). I do not feel that a GP is equipped enough in knowledge - nor is provided with enough time in the UK NHS system (I think a patient is allowed 7 minutes) to speak about the intricacies of depression. But pills are cheap. Sadly, it seems on the NHS life is cheap. My brother also had some of his bowel successfully removed twenty years earlier because of Crohn's Disease (spelling!) which I think would have affected a speedier metabolism. He was also very light and was not eating well. He also walked miles each day (as a postman) and then walked friends' dogs for miles in his spare time (his dog had relatively recently died). I was at the time studying for my MSC (Consciousness studies would you believe!) and was online a great deal which took up the phoneline. He couldn't have contacted me easily and like one of you said, it isn't so easy for a man to open up. But he would have with me, he knew I loved him. I feel angry I wasn't available for him. I feel angry that the doctor was so dismissive. I don't think he even had a leaflet in the Effexor box to explain the side effects.
I would like to see it made illegal for someone without support (especially who lives alone like my brother) to be provided with strong medication before social support and counselling has been explored - or to have counselling with the medication. Doctors in UK are hard to see in the large cities and they too are stressed so many are unsympathetic towards stress conditions.
What I can't understand is, if you all know these things and when people transfer medications because they do not suit, this is an extremely important feedback area which may never be heard by the pharmaceutical companies. It's OK that psychiatrists become informed but what about the drug companies? I believe that suicides are also under-reported because doctors are ashamed to admit a patient of theirs has committed suicide. In the UK the Home Office collects statistics but this informationis not passed to the drug companies. I have yet to find out how to report my brother's suicide to the pharmeceutical company. Who cares enough? All these side effects that many of you undergo are awful. You all sound so eloquent - so why do you seem to have no voice?
How does one get your eloquent voices heard? How can good come out of your pains and those who are no longer around to speak them?
When my brother died and several other things all happened at once, I ran away to a Buddhist Centre. I was away for five days. I found some semblance of peace. Would anyone be prepared to try meditation and relaxation techniques? They do work. With fMRI scans, it can now be demonstrated that these methods work, that these techniques have a beneficial effect on the Amygdala. It is not an easy route. Learning to discipline oneself to daily quiet time. But, with support, it really works and there are no side effects.
I didn't even know my brother was on medication. He never told me. He only went to the doctors once to get the medication. Never went back. Died two weeks later. He was such a wonderful man, so kind. My daughter's only Uncle.
I feel side effects are under-reported and the dangers of drugs under-reported. Some drugs are unsuitable in certain conditions. They need to be made known. If the side effects because more widely known there would be more respect in their use. Hopefully.
Thanks for your support. If you can add anything about anything, I'd be grateful.I really admire you all. Please keep on...
Love
Estorianna
Posted by linkadge on November 13, 2003, at 19:41:20
In reply to still with the dark thoughts..., posted by estorianna on November 13, 2003, at 18:55:10
I can't begin to imagine the loss you must feel for your brother. I also understand that you need some way to make something of this situation.
Reporting your case to the company may, or may not bring the resolution your soul requires. It is very possible that you can bring your case, (with the proper attourney) to court. Beleive it or not, there are many cases similar to yours, where a drug has been deemed the final factor in driving a person to suicide. Lilly probably makes a settlement on many cases like this in a year.
If money is what you want (I don't mean that in a rude way) there is a good chance you can get some.
It is entirely correct to say that these drugs (if/when) they work are only part of the solution. Many times when they do work, they only do enough so as to get you wanting to help yourself again.These are some of the tools I have to keep the depression at bay
Medications (phamracudical)
Fish Oil - Omega 3 fatty acids
Folic Acid
Vitamin D
rTMS (repetitive transcranial megnetic stimulation)
Exercise (jogging 1h each day)
Church
Bible Study
etc etc.I guess what I'm really trying to say is that we too are just normal people. I am only 20 years old and there have been many times that I have been very close to suicide. I would be lying to you if I said that these drugs are the whole answer, and I would be lying to you if I said they are not part, of the answer.
As far as side effects go, yes, I have put up with a lot, but after 2 months of withstanding them, I didn't even feel like I was taking anything.
But you are absolutely right, the few weeks can be horrible. Had I not had my family in the same house as me (literally guarding me) I would not be here.
Blaming the drugs, may not be the answer you're looking for, cause as I said, there are two sides to the coin. When they do work, they really do help. If you want examples of them working, don't come to this board :), we're all the ones who aren't quite there yet
But please, if there is anything I know that can help you find the answers you're looking for, please ask, even if you think that I seem shallow or superficial, or perhaps being my age, I really don't know suffering.
I commend you for coming to this site, If there's anything I can help you with please let me know.
We both know that text cannot communicate my sencerity.
Linkadge
Posted by john1022 on November 13, 2003, at 19:42:37
In reply to still with the dark thoughts..., posted by estorianna on November 13, 2003, at 18:55:10
Hi Estorianna,
Please, please don't feel guilty about not being available for your brother in his time of need. His death had nothing to do with you being online studying. Just know that when your brother was on Effexor and had the reaction he had, it really was not your brother. I truely believe it was the medication that caused this in his case. I look back to how I felt not too long ago and scare myself to death with the thoughts I was having and how easily I thought that I could go through with something like suicide. It wasn't me...it was the medication.
In my case I was lucky enough to have the support of my parents, but honestly they would have probably never known what I was going through or been able to actually honestly help me in anyway, sometimes all the support in the world isn't enough IMO. Like you said, it is difficult for especially men to open up about problems like these and I would have never told my parents about these problems.
So please don't feel ANY guilt, as I don't think that even if you were there it would have been enough to prevent what happened as the effects of these meds on some people can be overpowering. The medications causing these thoughts are definitely that much more powerful, they change people in some cases. Unfortunately, I don't think the Effexor brochure would have helped in this case as I don't think it would mention such side effects. Your brother was not really your brother when he commited suicide, much like when I have these thoughts I am not myself, rather just a body powerfully influenced by these meds in my case.
When I stop them in my case, I come back to myself and think what the hell was I thinking? It is truely scary. With that said, I believe in meds (finding the right ones of coarse under close medical supervision and regular check ups) as they have worked for me and I will continue having to find the right one as I do have a problem that needs to be fixed unfortunately.
The drug companies are in it for the money and will do all they can to not reveal the numerous potential side effects of these drugs, so I am not sure how you can voice your concerns. They may list a handful, whereas if you go to someplace non-biased to look at the side effects of anti-depressants like rxmed.com, you will see Effexor has a page full of potential side effects that have been reported by users. Suicide, suicidal ideation, depression worsening, and anxiety worsening are all side effects of effexor and most anti-depressants. As I mentioned they work wonders for many, but can have drastic results for others.
It is a shame about many doctors who will only visit with you for a few minutes and then send you out the door with a prescription to try without asking detailed questions. This has been my case in the past and I am lucky to be alive because of it. The last doc actually thought I was making up all the side effects I was having of feeling 100X worse and got upset with me and referred me out. Luckily the next doctor sat down and talked with me for 2 1/2 hours and then suggested I was possibly bipolar, where having these bad reactions to AD's is a common thing. She wouldn't prescribe another AD and instead I am trying a mood stabilizer (but I can't say if it is helping or not, I don't feel any better yet, but I am not feeling worse like I did on the last 2 AD's).
I totally agree with you about meditation and relaxtion techniques being helpful for some in particular cases. But in some cases some people (including myself) have serious chemical imbalances that cannot be fixed by relaxtion techniques alone in my honest opinion. Don't take that the wrong way, but it's kind of like telling someone with cancer to try meditation to cure there cancer. In these cases of a true chemical imbalance, finding the right med along with meditation or excercise is probably the most beneficial.
But like you said, for some people who have say situational anxiety or depression caused by an event in their life, I could possibly see relaxtion techniques and coping techniques to help without meds first. For me though, there is no underlining issues causing my problems, I just wake up one day and feel terrible and in those type of cases (endogenous/chemical imbalances sp?) depression, these techniques alone may not be enough.
I wish you the best in dealing with your great loss. Life throws us curve balls all too often. Stay strong! Feel free to post any more questions or concerns you may have. It is good to let your feelings out and to reach out for support. Best of luck. Take care
Posted by estorianna on November 15, 2003, at 16:52:40
In reply to Re: still with the dark thoughts..., posted by john1022 on November 13, 2003, at 19:42:37
Dear Linkadge and John,
I really appreciate your supportive and informative responses. I was very moved to read your words, they have helped me so much. Thank you, thank you. There is so much I want to still know but I don't know what to ask :-)...
I am pleased that you both feel that Effexor has helped many people. However, I still would like to see that people have more social support as well as medication. Even social support before medication. My feeling is that mind-altering drugs (both of the legal and illegal variety) cause damage to the brain. I am frightened by them being handed out without careful supervision. So little is known about how many of them work.
Yes, I believe the drug companies are prominantly interested in material gain and I can appreciate why people want to litigate in order to hurt them where it hurts them the most (financially). But I have no desire to do this myself. It is a difficult road and one my brother would not want me to do, I feel sure. No huge settlement will provide a feeling of comfort or justice having been done for my brother's death. Knowing that these drugs are heavily supervised and that there is someone to whom a patient can confidentially talk to at any time would give meaning to my brother's death and I believe save lives. But how I can begin to do that I have no idea.
However, the soaring number of depressive people in the Western world is a symptom of an ailing society of which you and I are a part. We are all a part of this problem. Learning to live with peace of mind in an insane world is so very difficult. We all have to deal with that, somehow. I was unavailable when my brother needed me and I have to come to terms with that. I do, however difficult this is. I know John that you so kindly wrote that my presence may have not been enough to have prevented my brother's suicide. But it might - and I think it would - however much I would love to believe otherwise. I also think I have to learn to deal with that and somehow grow from that. It is part of our social ailment to pretend we are not a part of that shadow which we do not like - but surely I need to learn to acknowledge it and live with it and embrace and forgive my failings so I can do this to others?
I also feel that our understanding of the mind is still so very simplistic. It was only in l998 that it was discovered that the neurons in the adult brain can regenerate. Up until that time we were fed the information (and believed) that adult brains continue to degenerate. That was only five years ago! It's like thinking the world was flat. This has turned neuro-scientific research on its head. So with new information we learn to think differently about how and who we are. Most of the medication used for certain conditions are found accidentally and the way they work is not understood. This is scarey and experimental. Psychology literally means 'the study of the soul' (not, as is now thought, the 'mind'). Well there's not much soul in mainstream psychology training today. I think we still have far too limited a notion of reality. I believe we can make magnificent changes within our own brains and bodies ourselves through changes in the way we act and think. Naive, maybe. Hopeful, yes! What if you were told that without a doubt, it was scientifically proven you could create chemical changes in the brain through deep relaxation that could provide the balance you need? That although difficult, with careful supervision and guidance you could do that? Indications are that this is highly likely. Can you imagine what this could do to the health industry (correction, ill health industry)? It wouldn't bare thinking about - which is exactly why it isn't - it is never thought about.
If I possibly can, I would like to be able to see a safer way of dispensing anti-depressants without those of you who want them to be prevented from having them. I would love to see the stigma which accompanies mental health to be dissolved. So many, far too many people suffer alone and in silence.But I have no idea how to do that. I would like my life from now on, guided by my brother's high, sensitive and ethical standards, to become more meaningful.I truly wish you both a soulful, meaningful journey in life and that you find the peace of mind you both deserve, that everyone in this community deserves as a basic human right. I feel very privileged to have made a connection with you both. Thank you for your wisdom and kindness.
With love and deep gratitude.
Estorianna
Posted by estorianna on November 15, 2003, at 17:10:05
In reply to Re: still with the dark thoughts..., posted by estorianna on November 15, 2003, at 16:52:40
I feel my last post was insensitive to imagine that we can all make changes within ourselves.I realize that the decision to take medication is carefully considered against all other options by most of you and there are times when we all need support. I apologize for that remark and the one that I wrote that I think that these drugs damage the brain. I have no foundation for that argument and again it is an insensitive and scaremongering remark.
I am so sorry.
This is the end of the thread.
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