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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
My doctor and I just had a falling out. He does not believe me in the slightest bit about what these last three anti-depressants have done to me as far as side effects. He thinks I am imagining it and tells me the brain is a powerful thing and I am doing this to myself.
I go from feeling close to normal when not on anything (still something a little off, sleep not triggering) to having the EXACT same side effects from each AD after only taking them for 5-7 days and feeling like I am living a hell on earth. When I stop taking them, I slowly go back to almost normal as the medication is leaving my system.
From almost NORMAL, then on the AD's feeling:
100X's more depressed
100X's the anxiety (like a continous panic attack)
feeling suicidal
body twitching
no concentration
increased ringing in my ears
hypersensitivity in ears
popping in ears
preasure in ears
runny nose
vivid nightmares
terrible sleep
songs getting stuck and playing in my headThese are not any symptoms I have when I am not on them! Except for my sleep not triggering.
He says I am not giving time for the medication to work and that I have it in my mind that they won't.
I KNOW WHAT I AM FEELING and know my body. They are having serious ill effects on it. Each day I have been on each medication, it gets worse as they start entering my system. These feelings slowly go away each day when I stop taking them.
I am not going in with a preconcieved notion that they will not work. In fact, when all these were out of my system last time I went in feeling fine and just wanted to try the Amitriptyline for the ringing in my ears. I BELIEVED 100% that this medication was going to work for the ringing and my depression and I was ecstatic about it. I went home and took them for a week knowing they would work and I would be back to normal.
After about a week, I started getting these symptoms. Each day it got worse, but I kept taking the medication believing it was going to work and trying to ignore the side effects. I physically made myself keep taking them believing they would start working. I took them another week until I couldn't take how I was feeling any more because I did believe they would start working.
So I have been from almost normal, to having these extreme side effects on each of the medications (all of which are known to effect ear mechnisms from what I gather). They drive me to the point of being suicidal. When I stop taking them, I slowly go back to almost normal. They are making me feel an opposite affect of multiplying anxiety and depression to the fullest degree. When I stop taking them, the side effects slowly wear off day by day.
My doctor just basically told me it was all in my head and that there is no way this could be happening. He basically said I should go see someone else and kept going on about Placebo effects. I know my body and these have all thrown them completely out of wack!
It isn't in my head. I believed strongly each time I start taking a new one that it will start working and I will feel fine. I couldn't be more positive going into taking them.
Can someone please offer an explanation of what is going on with me?
I believe strongly that my seretonin is depleted. 5HTP seems to work for me and does not give me these effects. But I want to try the doctor's way before mine and that is why I have been trying different AD's that having been have been giving me these severe side effects.
Posted by linkadge on October 6, 2003, at 10:30:17
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
I know that Effexor made me feel much worse when I took it
Linkadge
Posted by Susan J on October 6, 2003, at 10:45:44
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
Hi, John,
> From almost NORMAL, then on the AD's feeling:
>
> 100X's more depressed
> 100X's the anxiety (like a continous panic attack)
> feeling suicidal
> body twitching
> no concentration
> increased ringing in my ears
> hypersensitivity in ears
> popping in ears
> preasure in ears
> runny nose
> vivid nightmares
> terrible sleep
> songs getting stuck and playing in my head<<Paxil did something similar to me. It took a lot longer for me to realize that the horrible *depression* I was feeling was being caused by Paxil. That drug, to me, was worse than death.
It's not in your head.
> He says I am not giving time for the medication to work and that I have it in my mind that they won't.
<<He's disrespecting you by not taking your feelings/opinions seriously. Has *he* ever tried any AD's????? Or is he buying into the *wonder drug* claims by the pharmacy representatives that give him trips to the Carribean and such?> I KNOW WHAT I AM FEELING and know my body.
<<I believe you. Trust your gut.
>He basically said I should go see someone else and kept going on about Placebo effects.
<<He's right. You need to see someone else. A doc with an open mind or better AD drug experience. Can you?
> Can someone please offer an explanation of what is going on with me?
<<I dunno, I'm not a doctor. But I *do* know *I* am extremely sensitive to most drugs and get almost all the side effects, and seem to get them worse than most people. It seems you are even more sensitive to them than I am. Also, daggit, it's a drug that affects your *mind.* Your brain. And your brain controls *everything.* The docs *have* to expect some physical side effects....Can you see another doctor? This guy is bad news.....yes, finding an AD that works for you *is* trial and error. But he shouldn't be dismissing your knowledge of your own body and mind.....
Good luck,
Susan
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2003, at 10:59:53
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
Can I ask, if you were feeling normal before taking them, then why did you start taking the AD's??
Just interested.. cos I only take them when I feel hopeless, and not normal! Normal is what I am aiming for!
Nikki
Posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 11:48:03
In reply to Re: Unbelievable... » John1022, posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2003, at 10:59:53
Thanks for the responses.
I think I have this all figured out.
I KNOW it is seretonin related. The doctor won't admit it.
I have only experienced depression 3 times in my life for only periods of 4 weeks. Each time the depression was brought on by exstacy and mushroom use. Both of these drugs work by causing a spike in your seretonin giving off feelings of euphoria, followed by a seretonin depletion (called the Monday Blues by people who use exstacy). People who use Exstacy take 5HTP right afterwards to boost their seretonin back up to avoid this situation.
I have only used these drugs three times, each time they have caused this 3 days later. For some reason, I wasn't smart enough to put two and two together until this third time 2 months ago. I will never touch these substances again. (But I know that they are relativiley harmless for most, but some people like my brain's chemisty cannot take them)
This third time, the minute I started feeling my seretonin take a huge plunge (I can actually feel it come out of know where right when I go try to go to sleep), my sleep all of a sudden won't trigger and I immediately got a ringing in my ears simutanously.
I have searched the internet and there does seem to be a correlation in a spike then drop in seretonin levels and tinnitus. I KNOW that's what has caused it and KNOW this is all seretonin related (the tinnitus).
Four days after this started (seretonin depletion after taking mushrooms) I started taking 5HTP. It worked almost immediately hours later and literally felt like it lifted me out of the "mild" depression that I was feeling and helped me go right to sleep for the first time in days without an Ativan.
I read that 5HTP in combo with St. John's Wort worked well, so I started trying that a few days later thinking it might make things even better as Dr. Michael Murray says they are safe together and treat depression well together. I think the St. John's Wort was giving me the exact same AD side effects, but when I would pop a 5HTP it seemed to mask them (boosting my seretonin?)
So I would go from feeling terrible while on SJW and 5HTP, to feeling almost perfect in a matter of hours after I would pop the 5HTP. As the 5HTP wore off and the SJW didn't I would start feeling bad again with the listed above side effects (not to same degree because I know the 5HTP was keeping it in check) to feeling normal a few hours after taking the 5HTP.
It seems the AD's are all causing a many times increased version of my feeling of seretonin depletion, like almost an opposite effect. What's weird is Effexor worked in the past to fix this and is now having this opposite effect of making the depletion feel much worse.
I stopped taking STJ and 5HTP together, 5HTP only and felt better, but still had a ringing in my ears (that mind you began to decrease as I came off of any of these AD's), but I still thought something needed to be done.
Felt pretty good except for sleep not triggering for a week coming off SJW before I started taking Wellbutrin. One week on Wellbutrin, bam, same side effects after a week. Stopped taking and felt better day by day.
Effexor worked in the past so I thought I would try that after the Wellbutrin cleaned out. Felt ok for a week on Effexor, then bam, day by day on the Effexor the above symptoms got worse by the day. Stopped taking it and day by day the symptoms decreased and went away.
Felt almost 100% normal with each of the above symptoms all but disappearing for a week once the Effexor was out of my system for a week, but could still tell something was a little off and ears still ringing slightly.
Doc says try Elavil for ears ringing. We are both not as worried about seretonin drop (which he won't admit that is what it is) and want to try Elavil mainly for the ear ringing.
Elavil sedated me and made me sleep for a week and then, bam, each day the symptoms built and built as I was taking it making me feel extremely WACKED and giving me suicidal thoughts where I have NEVER experienced anything such thoughts in my life. Tried to stick it out and keep taking Elavil but it got worse and I just had to quit my job because I could not handle being at work feeling that way.
Havn't taken Elavil in a week and each day the symptoms are dying down, day by day. Still in system though and feeling these symptoms minorly, as I know Elavil stays in my system for 2-3 weeks.
This is not a placebo effect. This is not my brain being effected by reading things on the Internet. I experienced these side effects on SJW, Wellbutrin and Effexor before even getting on the Internet and reading a thing. I experienced these side effects while believing 100% that these meds would help because Effexor did work in the past with me within a few weeks, it made me go back to 100% normalcy as far as feelings and sleeping.
Everything seems to be having an opposite affect. This is not in my head. I know what I am feeling. The pharmacist at my work even said don't believe that just because a side effect is not listed on the description that it is not a side effect for you. I just minutes ago read on prozactruth.com that many people experience these exact side effects I am feeling and that I am not alone.
I am almost 100% sure that boosting my seretonin through the use of 5HTP is my last hope and that IT IS GOING TO WORK. It worked the first few days, except the tinnitus was still slightly there so I wanted to try something else. That is why I kept trying something new.
I am done for now with AD's and my current doctor as he basically flipped out on me and won't believe a word I am saying. I honestly believe I have this thing pinpointed and that it is going to work out. Now I just have to wait a week for the Elavil to leave my system to try 5HTP again.
I know this is long, but thanks for reading. I really believe that SSRI's and other AD's work wonders for some people and cause serious harm in some rare cases. Case in point Effexor once working for me and now causing opposite affects of having non-functional depression when to begin with a just felt a little off and couldn't sleep.
When I stop taking each of the 4 AD's which are all causing the same symptoms, EVERYONE of these symptoms lifts and that is why I am done with AD's and going to try 5HTP again for a while. I know it works, it did in the past and I shouldn't have stopped the first time.
Thanks for reading. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I really believe that any open minded doctors have A LOT to learn from my case.
I know this sounds crazy but I am a very stable, intellectual person who normally does not have to deal with things like this. I know my body and I know what is going on. I now have an incredible appreciation for others problems and I almost want to go back to school in the medical field once I get this under control to be able to help others.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2003, at 11:57:04
In reply to Re: Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 11:48:03
Have you tried anything other than SSRI's?? I know I don't get on with ssri's at all.. paxil and prozac both sent me completely loopy within weeks of starting them. Effexor at lower doses was a problem, but once I got up to 300mg I was ok (extended release version.. not ext. release made me totally ill)
Tricyclics worked OK with me.. some annoying SE, but not too bad (doc won;t let me have them though as I;m now classed as suicide risk).
I'm going to be trying Reboxatine from tomorrow.
I'm sorry your docs won't believe you. I know how hard that can be.. luckily after 3 years of seeiing psychs I found one that is totally wonderful and believes me, and knows I understand my stuff..
Good luck
Nikki
Posted by Penny on October 6, 2003, at 12:36:41
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
The SSRIs and I don't get along well at all, and my doc sees that and understands. Has been able to explain to me why Paxil was so terrible for me and why he will never put me on Prozac. He doesn't tolerate side effects with me, and reminded me (when I 'forgot' to take my meds one day) that they can all cause withdrawal, etc. He listens. He cares. Right now I'm working on weaning off of the meds b/c I'm not getting satisfactory results from any of them, and he's working with me on this.
He is, however, not a psychiatrist but a neuropsychiatrist. I know that psychiatrists, as medical docs, are supposed to emphasize the biological/physiological basis behind depression and other mental illnesses, but, in my experience, that isn't the case. My first two psychiatrists were just script-writers - see you for 15 minutes, send you out the door with a new drug. Didn't really care that you were having any side effects. My pdoc now is nothing like that. He really knows how these meds work, why things go wrong, etc.
I'm still not clear on why you went on ADs to begin with. Are you depressed off of them (when you're not doing other drugs)? If not, why take them anymore???
P
Posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 12:55:10
In reply to Re: You need a new doc... » John1022, posted by Penny on October 6, 2003, at 12:36:41
Thanks Penny. I new doc it is. I couldn't believe how he reacted to me this morning when I talked to him.
I definitely need some kind of AD (or 5HTP which I think is going to work) because I definitely have a seretonin defieciency problem. I believe 100% that is all it is.
When my seretonin drops, my sleep won't trigger and I feel a little anxiety, but not much. I am trying the AD's because Effexor did work in the past when this exact same thing happened and my sleep was back to normal within 2 weeks.
It is definitely some kind of imbalane as my brain will not trigger sleep when I am "off". I don't feel sad or guilty, typical depression, but it is definitely something related to seretonin which Effexor fixed in the past.
No sleep without Ativan has been constant for two months and I can feel something off inside ( a little more moody than usual and more anxiety)
Also when this happens, I can't smoke pot without it causing a near panic attack and making falling asleep harder. I usally smoke pot daily and it has the exact opposite affect of calming me down beyond belief like a strong benzo and putting me right to sleep at night.
I just figure that because the balance is not going away and that I am sure it has to do with seretonin, that an AD like an SSRI would work again. Something has changed though making all these AD's cause all these very serious side effects.
The only reason I keep trying them is to basically fix the sleep problem because otherwise my sleep absolutely will not trigger until the imbalance is corrected.
When I took 5HTP, I felt an almost immediate change and could fall asleep with no problems without taking an Ativan.
It is seretonin related, and probably seretonin only, I am 100% sure of it. It is just too coincidental that the drugs I took that caused the drop in seretonin work because they manipulate and then drop seretonin, combined with the fact that when I take 5HTP it almost brings me back to normal except the ringing in my ears.
What I don't understand is how Effexor once worked and now it doesn't, and how Effexor and all the other AD's are all causing these extreme side effects almost like they are themselves causing more seretonin depletion.
I know it is hard to believe, but that is what I believe to be happening as I am very aware of what is going on in my body.
Thanks again
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 6, 2003, at 13:13:59
In reply to Re: You need a new doc..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 12:55:10
> When my seretonin drops, my sleep won't trigger and I feel a little anxiety, but not much. I am trying the AD's because Effexor did work in the past when this exact same thing happened and my sleep was back to normal within 2 weeks.
--------If your doctor had been smart, he wouldn't have mentioned his suspicion about the placebo effect and would have given you a placebo to validate his suspicions. Maybe that's poor medical practice, but it would have proven your point.
If it's really only your sleep that concerns you, maybe you could try some melatonin or tryptophan. Remeron is also a pretty good AD for sleep, and works in low doses.
If SSRIs cause you problems, I wonder if tianeptine would help. It has the opposite effect on serotonin (enhances reuptake).
Lastly, what does it mean for your sleep to "trigger?" Are you saying that you don't get sleepy/fall asleep, or that your sleep isn't useful/rewarding.
Posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 13:38:57
In reply to suggestions » John1022, posted by Eddie Sylvano on October 6, 2003, at 13:13:59
Thanks Eddie.
> Lastly, what does it mean for your sleep to "trigger?" Are you saying that you don't get sleepy/fall asleep, or that your sleep isn't useful/rewarding.
I don't fall asleep. I feel tired, but I lay down, become less tired and then I simply just cannot fall asleep. My thoughts start racing and I can only describe it as something not triggering. I try to relax and deep breathe, but something is just not working.
I have never had sleep problems when I am not having this problem. I have always slept like a champ, with no interuptions and have always fallen asleep the second my head hits the pillow and usually before 11:00 pm and never wake up again until 7-8 am throughout the night.
When I have this problem, I can lay there until the sunrises and I won't go to sleep. When I have this problem and take 5HTP, I instantly fall asleep.
As mentioned from a post below, I am almost thinking the AD's and Effexor are sqeazing a rock that is already dry, meaning I am not producing sufficient amounts of seretonin to begin with so when an SNRI or other AD trys to prohibit the re-uptake, there is nothing there to prohibit making all of these problems much worse.
Meaning when I am on AD's, the sleep problem gets much worse and it becomes hard to stay asleep on even Lorazapam. When on the AD's, I am able to fall asleep but I wake up many times throughout the night and have horrible nightmares and dreams even when I take the Lorazapam.
If I only take Lorazapam and when I am off the AD's, I have no dreams or nightmares that I remeber and sleep perfectly the whole night without ever waking up once.
Whereas if I take a Lorazapam when I am off the AD's (because I still cannot fall asleep), I stay knocked out all night and don't wake up until I have had a full 8 hours of sleep.
> tianeptine would help. It has the opposite effect on serotonin (enhances reuptake).
That sounds like an interesting suggestion and might go along with the idea of squeezing a dry rock for water (SSRI's prohibiting uptake of seretonin when it is just not there in sufficient amounts)
But I am a little worried about that because that is the same mechanism that causes the drug effects of exstacy (causing a large release of seretonin, then afterwards a serious depletion)
I am beginning to think I am a medical annamoly and that 5HTP might be my last hope. And it did seem to work the short period I was on it for sleep, anxiety and my "off" feeling before my doctor told me not to take it and to try the AD's.
Any other suggestions? This board is wonderful. Thanks for all of the help. I hope everyone with problems including myself gets better and can get there life back to normal. God bless
Posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 14:19:43
In reply to Re: suggestions, posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 13:38:57
ambien also seems to be causing the above side effects as well. It let's me fall asleep, but is causing similar feeling side effects and causes me to wake up at night with increased anxiety and nightmares where I havn't had those in the past. So I am not going to take that anymore
Ambien also made me have slight hallucinations, which I think is a little scary. Because LSD and mushrooms work on seretonin neurotransmitters to cause their effects and hallicinations, I almost feel that so is Ambien. It is just too much of a coincidence that Ambien, not an AD, is causing similar side affects and amplfying them to a higher degree when I take it. Whereas Lorazapam does nothing to make these side effects feel any worse.
I am beginning to think there is a strong correlation to the AD's I have tried, Ambien, mushrooms and exstacy and the personal side effects I have been experiencing. Although I am probably a rare case. But it is happening to me as I know my body and what I am feeling, experiencing.
Feeling a little better today and the last two days as the Elavil is leaving my system, but I took a Ambien the night before last to swith up on the Ativan and whammo, the listed side effects in my above post all came back slightly and resided today a little more.
Posted by Still Hurting on October 6, 2003, at 21:47:38
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
Please go to a doctor that will recommend for you to take an EEG. It sounds as if you have some kind of electric malfunctioning going on.
Posted by BekkaH on October 7, 2003, at 0:10:16
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
John,
Find another doctor. You may have to "shop around" until you find a doctor who is right for you, but don't give up. You know yourself best. You know how and what you're feeling. Trust your instincts, and trust yourself.
Posted by DayByDay on October 7, 2003, at 7:31:38
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
I got a strong anxiety and depression increase after a couple of days when I used Zoloft or Lexapro for a severe depression and for a while I thought my "natural" condition was getting worse, not that it was because of the meds so I kept on eating them and it made me worse.
I didn´t think of it because when I used Prozac
or paxil for a quite moderate depression I didn´t
have the same problem the medicines work good within a couple of days.It is known that SSRI can increase depressive symptoms, anxiety or other symptoms like OCD during a couple of weeks. A friend of mine told
me his Zoloft anxiety stopped after 3-4 weeks.
I didn´t even wanna try it that long.It also think that tinnitus and increased tinnitus
is a side-effect of SSRI, at least for Prozac.
- another friend of mine got it while on Prozac.
Posted by McPac on October 8, 2003, at 16:02:18
In reply to Re: Unbelievable... » John1022, posted by BekkaH on October 7, 2003, at 0:10:16
"Find another doctor. You may have to "shop around" until you find a doctor who is right for you, but don't give up. You know yourself best. You know how and what you're feeling. Trust your instincts, and trust yourself."
>>>>>>>>> The problem is that most, if not all doctors in an area all know one another.....when you go to one and have a bad experience, you may switch and go to another, but guess what---they know one another...and they DO talk to one another (whether legal or not)......I know that after I had a bad experience with one bozo shrink, it did not matter which shrink I went to in my local area, they ALL knew one another and were VERY much influenced by what the previous bozo told them...you can't win sometimes unless you go to a doc far, far away that hasn't been influenced by others! This is sad but very true!
Posted by wats1232 on December 16, 2004, at 17:40:36
In reply to Unbelievable..., posted by John1022 on October 6, 2003, at 10:10:55
i hate to say this but after my experiances with multiple ssri's and tricyclics that i'd almost rather have the problems. I will say they dug me out of the pit but after that recovery i think you should get off them immediatelky.
i've had all of your symptoms for the most part, especially the ringing ears and also electric shocks with eye movements, imbalance etc.
switch doctors for a 2nd opinion, some people know there body better than the doctors.
i feel great now with the occasional loss of balance and shocks but they are few and far between now after only 1 month.
hope this helps, dave
This is the end of the thread.
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