![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 47 to 71 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 2:57:08
In reply to WHOA on the lithium orotate - be careful!!, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 11:55:42
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 3:00:29
In reply to That's OK- read your post to Ron- I'm a believer » Larry Hoover, posted by Paulie on June 2, 2003, at 21:02:52
Posted by Paulie on June 4, 2003, at 9:09:33
In reply to Re: WHOA on the lithium orotate - be careful!! » Paulie, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 15:20:42
Posted by Janelle on June 4, 2003, at 15:54:25
In reply to Re: Anyone else have THIS KIND of depression ??? » Janelle, posted by Barbara Cat on June 2, 2003, at 19:52:49
Hi BarbaraCat - I have been unable to get to an online computer so I had to go back to the previous time period here on PB and found your questions under my post about Depression/Lithium Orotate:
1. Are you able to sleep OK when you have this kind of depression? YES! But only because one of my night-time meds sedates me enough to put me out!
2, When you're laid out, what's going on in your mind? Do you blame yourself for being lazy, for instance? No, I don't blame myself for anything. I either have racing thoughts about all the things I need/want to do but can't which in turn make me anxious or believe it or not, I just zombie out and don't think about anything!
3. Are there any body pains, like muscle or joint pains or stomach pain? NO, knock on wood.
4. Do you feel sick all over? NO, again knock on wood!
5. How is your elimination? Regular, thank you!
6. Is your tongue coated during these times? NO, knock on wood. So, the follo-up question (If so, how would you describe it? (very important question, BTW) doesn't apply!
7. If you force yourself to get up does your energy eventually get better, or are you still pooped out? I cannot even FORCE myself to get up, other than to go to the bathroom and maybe drink something.
8. If you do force yourself to get up, what are the compelling reasons to do so? Just to use the bathroom and get something to drink.
9. What time of day is best/worst? Morning is WORST; evening is BEST. (which I hear is common pattern for depression?)
10. Is there anything that relieves it even a little? NO.
I'm flattered that you remember me posting about similar problems last YEAR! Thanks. So, what PHYSICAL thing(s) do you think might be going on with me?
Thanks,
your friend,
Janelle
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 0:53:47
In reply to BarbCAT: answers 2 your questions: » Barbara Cat, posted by Janelle on June 4, 2003, at 15:54:25
Hi Janelle,
I was wondering about something like possible fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue or some other possible viral based metabolic condition, but from your answers it doesn't sound like a physical condition is the culprit. The only other thing that came to mind was low thyroid, but I recall that you had some tests done and it came back in the normal range. If you did have a low thyroid you'd feel no energy totally bagged feeling all the time, along with cold hands and feet and constipation. Also, to be laid out flat like you are due to a thyroid condition, your blood levels would probably show it. Sometimes you can have a low thyroid even if the tests don't pick it up, but not with the extreme symptoms that come and go as you describe.There's probably some physical component involved cause everything is interrelated, but it sounds like atypical depression to a T. One other thing came to mind just now. If you go through periodic times of extreme stress, or you did go through extreme - I'm talking major stress - previously, it can clobber your adrenal system and once that happens its hard to restore things. But your symptoms really sound like atypical depression without any other physical crap to deal with, which is a blessing.
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:26:56
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » McPac, posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 2:45:35
Hi Ron,
Are you also taking B complex? You probably know this cause you seem well versed in nutrition but all the same, just taking B3 could cause an imbalance. You know, B3 is used in the synthesis of dopamine as in tyrosine -> phenylalanine -> dopamine with thyroid precursor thrown in along the way, so maybe niacin is helping you to metabolize dopamine for a lift? I'm going to increase my niacinamide cause I could use some thyroid and dopamine beefing up.There's also something I recall about B6 being real important for serotonin synthesis, but interfers with some other synthesis, you're not supposed to take it at the same time as something else, but I don't remember. Anyway, gotta balance those B vitamins. - BCat
> I doubt it, but I can't say for sure. However, allow me to tell you what is currently doing an absolutely terrific job treating my dysphoric mood states (irritability to the tenth power, GRRRRRRR!!). 125 mg twice per day of niacin works great! Larry Hoover et al say that niacinamide is even better still, so I plan to do a trial of niacinamide. But I'll tell ya, McPac I am totally amazed at how much difference a B vitamin (B3) can make.
>
> Are you struggling with irritability? If so try 250 - 500 mg/day of niacinamide (or niacin?). Some people take as much as 2000 mg/day, but at the higher doses I would definitely go with the niacinamide as opposed to the niacin since the latter can cause liver problems in the very high dose ranges.
>
> -- Ron
>
Posted by Ron Hill on June 5, 2003, at 11:17:55
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:26:56
Hey Barbara,
> Are you also taking B complex? You probably know this cause you seem well versed in nutrition but all the same, just taking B3 could cause an imbalance.
Yeah, I’m aware of what you’re talking about and I take a B-100 complex daily.
> You know, B3 is used in the synthesis of dopamine as in tyrosine -> phenylalanine -> dopamine with thyroid precursor thrown in along the way, so maybe niacin is helping you to metabolize dopamine for a lift?
I was unaware of this role that B3 plays in the production of dopamine. However, I'm convinced that B3 is doing an incredible job treating my irritability by improving serotonin production (as opposed to dopamine). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), if the body does not absorb adequate amounts of B3 from the diet, the body will manufacture in own supply of B3. However, it is a costly manufacturing process in that it uses up 60 tryptophan molecules for every one B3 molecule produced. Therefore, by supplying my body with plenty of B3, a large reservoir of tryptophan can now be used for the production of additional serotonin. I believe that it is this increased production of serotonin that is erasing the irritability (flash rage, sever impatience, etc).
I love the increased motivation, drive, and focus that comes with improved dopamine pathway functioning. For example, Enada NADH increases the production of dopamine and I love it. However, if my dopamine levels get out ahead of my serotonin levels, I get irritable (GRRRRRRRRR!). This is my naive and immature pharmacological explanation which may or may not have any semblance of fact. But what I do know is when I raise serotonin levels (using SSRIs, 5-HTP, etc) the irritability subsides. And now B3 is doing this for me without the adverse side effects of the SSRIs.
-- Ron
Posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:40:36
In reply to Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 1:26:56
Any bipolars here ever went off their mood stabilizers? If so, did ANGER, TEMPER, IRRITABILITY and AGITATION problems return?
Do most bipolars have terrible anger/temper/irrit. problems as part of their illness?
I'm trying to determine whether my anger/temper problems are due to a possible bipolar condition OR if it's caused by taking ssri's! Thanks!
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 17:26:58
In reply to Re: Nacin (or niacinamide) for BP II Irritabilty » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on June 5, 2003, at 11:17:55
That's great for you, Ron. I didn't know about that costly tryptophan conversion. You're post reminded me to start taking NADH again. It really helped when I was having real bad fibromyalgia fatigue. Maybe you could answer questions I have about the sublingual 'action' NADH vs. the enteric coated swallowed. I know that the sublingual will get absorbed faster and it's a larger dose, probably targeted for mongo workouts, but do the two types affect you differently in general? I have a bit of the sublingual type left and don't think I need 10mg of it, so I'd appreciate your input on dosing.
One other thing, you mentioned 5-HTP. I had no effect at all on it and in fact it made me feel more depressed, but I had very good results with l-tryptophan. Something to do with tryptophan hits a few more sites along the way before it's converted to 5-HTP. It helped mostly with the fibromyalgia muscle aches, so there's something in those first few steps that I was needing that 5-HTP wasn't doing. Always nice to chat with you.
Posted by Barbara Cat on June 6, 2003, at 0:59:54
In reply to Anybody? Re: Life without a moodstabilizer?, posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:40:36
Hi there Mr. McPac,
Yes to both if you're bipolar. Anger, irritability, etc. are all part of bipolar. I've gone off lithium a few times in the past year and a half and it was quite noticeable. Especially agitation and anxiety. Kind of a scattered, disorganized irritability and frustration. Yes, I'd say volitale frustration describes it for me. Everything annoys me. Lines are too long, I drop things, miss connections, people bug the living crap out of me, nothing works right and I get so frustrated with life that I want to kick something. When I then start taking lithium again things smooth out and unkink. I become more patient and calm, feel centered and my energy is smooth and consistent instead of hot and jangled.SSRI's do this too, especially if you're bipolar. As you probably know from this board, SSRIs can exacerbate an underlying manic condition if not combined with a mood stabilizer. Manic is not always the grandiose expansive wild and crazy stuff. It's muddled and prickly and jagged energy and life certainly gets difficult when you're coming from this icky volatile place. It's what happened to me before I realized I was bipolar. Also, when you stop SSRIs one seems to get a backlog of dammed up fury that comes to the surface, even if you're not bipolar. If you major depressive and on the right SSRI you shouldn't have this agitation. - BarbaraCat
> Any bipolars here ever went off their mood stabilizers? If so, did ANGER, TEMPER, IRRITABILITY and AGITATION problems return?
> Do most bipolars have terrible anger/temper/irrit. problems as part of their illness?
> I'm trying to determine whether my anger/temper problems are due to a possible bipolar condition OR if it's caused by taking ssri's! Thanks!
>
>
Posted by McPac on June 7, 2003, at 1:07:16
In reply to Re: Anybody? Re: Life without a moodstabilizer? » McPac, posted by Barbara Cat on June 6, 2003, at 0:59:54
(nm)
Posted by Ron Hill on June 7, 2003, at 19:45:06
In reply to Re: Nacin (or niacinamide) for BP II Irritabilty » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on June 5, 2003, at 17:26:58
Hi Barbcat,
> You're post reminded me to start taking NADH again. It really helped when I was having real bad fibromyalgia fatigue. Maybe you could answer questions I have about the sublingual 'action' NADH vs. the enteric coated swallowed. I know that the sublingual will get absorbed faster and it's a larger dose, probably targeted for mongo workouts, but do the two types affect you differently in general?
The main diference I found between the sublingual ENADAlert NADH and the down-the-hatch enteric coated Enada NADH is that the later has a smoother more prolonged action. The action of the sublingual formulation seems to spike up quickly, reaches a higher peak, and then drops off more quickly than the enteric coated tablet. I took 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation for the first ten days, but it then started to cause irritability. Therefore, I switched to the enteric coated tablets. In hindsight, I don’t think the irritability was due to the sublingual formulation per se because, as I found out later, the enteric coated tablets cause the same irritability if I take too much.
> I have a bit of the sublingual type left and don't think I need 10mg of it, so I'd appreciate your input on dosing.
Feel free to cut the sublingual tablets into smaller dose sizes. Obviously, cutting the enteric coated tablets will render the tablet useless because the stomach acid with destroy the NADH contained within the breached enteric coating and, therefore, the NADH will not make it to the intestines where it can be absorbed. Such is not the case, of course, with the sublingual formulation.
As far as dosing, I found that 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation was a good dose during the acute treatment phase (lasting about ten days) of my bipolar atypical depression. Your dose requirements for your fibromyalgia fatigue may differ from my experience. As a maintenance dose, I take a 2.5 mg enteric coated tablet once or twice a week depending on how I feel. The addition of 250 mg/day of TMG and 250 mg/day of niacin are very important in order to abate my bipolar related irritability, and the added irritability caused by Enada NADH.
> One other thing, you mentioned 5-HTP. I had no effect at all on it and in fact it made me feel more depressed, but I had very good results with l-tryptophan. Something to do with tryptophan hits a few more sites along the way before it's converted to 5-HTP. It helped mostly with the fibromyalgia muscle aches, so there's something in those first few steps that I was needing that 5-HTP wasn't doing.
Prior to johnj telling me about the efficacy of niacinamide (and niacin) for treating irritability, I was using about 25 mg/day of 5-HTP, spread out throughout the day on an as-needed basis, to help control my irritability. It helped a little for maybe an hour or so after taking a micro-dose, but it was not a profound benefit. I had the feeling that even the small amount of benefit would fade if I were to increase the dose size or frequency. But that was just my spectulation.
> Always nice to chat with you.
And with you, Oregon Barbcat!
-- Ron
Posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 23:13:53
In reply to Re: Enada NADH and 5-HTP » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on June 7, 2003, at 19:45:06
Hey Ron,
Are you still taking Niacin (nicotinic acid)...
studies have shown some interesting benzoish workings of niacinamide.....but whats up with the niacin functioning??
anyone have an idea?
> Hi Barbcat,
>
> > You're post reminded me to start taking NADH again. It really helped when I was having real bad fibromyalgia fatigue. Maybe you could answer questions I have about the sublingual 'action' NADH vs. the enteric coated swallowed. I know that the sublingual will get absorbed faster and it's a larger dose, probably targeted for mongo workouts, but do the two types affect you differently in general?
>
> The main diference I found between the sublingual ENADAlert NADH and the down-the-hatch enteric coated Enada NADH is that the later has a smoother more prolonged action. The action of the sublingual formulation seems to spike up quickly, reaches a higher peak, and then drops off more quickly than the enteric coated tablet. I took 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation for the first ten days, but it then started to cause irritability. Therefore, I switched to the enteric coated tablets. In hindsight, I don’t think the irritability was due to the sublingual formulation per se because, as I found out later, the enteric coated tablets cause the same irritability if I take too much.
>
> > I have a bit of the sublingual type left and don't think I need 10mg of it, so I'd appreciate your input on dosing.
>
> Feel free to cut the sublingual tablets into smaller dose sizes. Obviously, cutting the enteric coated tablets will render the tablet useless because the stomach acid with destroy the NADH contained within the breached enteric coating and, therefore, the NADH will not make it to the intestines where it can be absorbed. Such is not the case, of course, with the sublingual formulation.
>
> As far as dosing, I found that 10 mg/day of the sublingual formulation was a good dose during the acute treatment phase (lasting about ten days) of my bipolar atypical depression. Your dose requirements for your fibromyalgia fatigue may differ from my experience. As a maintenance dose, I take a 2.5 mg enteric coated tablet once or twice a week depending on how I feel. The addition of 250 mg/day of TMG and 250 mg/day of niacin are very important in order to abate my bipolar related irritability, and the added irritability caused by Enada NADH.
>
> > One other thing, you mentioned 5-HTP. I had no effect at all on it and in fact it made me feel more depressed, but I had very good results with l-tryptophan. Something to do with tryptophan hits a few more sites along the way before it's converted to 5-HTP. It helped mostly with the fibromyalgia muscle aches, so there's something in those first few steps that I was needing that 5-HTP wasn't doing.
>
> Prior to johnj telling me about the efficacy of niacinamide (and niacin) for treating irritability, I was using about 25 mg/day of 5-HTP, spread out throughout the day on an as-needed basis, to help control my irritability. It helped a little for maybe an hour or so after taking a micro-dose, but it was not a profound benefit. I had the feeling that even the small amount of benefit would fade if I were to increase the dose size or frequency. But that was just my spectulation.
>
> > Always nice to chat with you.
>
> And with you, Oregon Barbcat!
>
> -- Ron
>
>
>
Posted by Ron Hill on June 8, 2003, at 23:43:56
In reply to Re: Enada NADH and 5-HTP » Ron Hill, posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 23:13:53
Sample,
> Are you still taking Niacin (nicotinic acid)...
Yes.
> studies have shown some interesting benzoish workings of niacinamide.....but whats up with the niacin functioning??I'm not sure how it does it, but it is currently doing a fine job of abating my irritability. I plan to try niacinamide soon.
-- Ron
Posted by joebob on August 2, 2003, at 15:50:17
In reply to , Re: LITHIUM OROTATE » McPac, posted by Paulie on June 1, 2003, at 16:22:49
http://www.mwt.net/~drbrewer/brainfunction1.htm
LITHIUM ALSO PROTECTS AGAINST GLUTAMATE TOXICITYIn his writings on lithium orotate, Dr. Hans Nieper stressed how the primary function of lithium was the restoration of the proper electrical membrane potential by removing excess sodium from the inside of the cell. In the orotate form he was able to obtain results using small dosages, about 7% of the carbonate form, to successfully treat manic depression, migraine headaches, juvenile epilepsy, and alcoholism. Using calcium and lithium orotate together, Dr. Nieper obtained significant results in chronic hepatitis and liver cirrhosis. He reported that 5 mg of lithium orotate are closely equivalent to 100 mg of the carbonate form. According to Dr. Nieper, the lithium orotate releases lithium ions at the lysosomal membranes (structures within the cells), and withdraws sodium from them. The net result is a stabilization of the lysosomal membrane. If lysosomal enzymes are released within the cell they cause a cascade of destruction that leads to cellular death. The stabilization of the lysosomal membranes within the cell is a vitally important part of maintaining cellular health.
In 1998 a break-through discovery was reported by researchers from the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. They discovered that neurons (from rat brains) that were treated with lithium for six to seven days were completely protected from glutamate toxicity. It seems that the lithium attached itself to the receptors where the glutamate normally docks. This prevented the hyperactivity and resultant overload of calcium into the cell.
This exciting new understanding of one of lithium's protective actions against neurotoxicity from excessive glutamate opens the doorway for increased utilization of low dose lithium orotate. It appears that both lithium and B12 (in the methylcobalamin form) have a very beneficial role to play in protecting the human brain from this destructive neurotoxic process.
(Dr. Nieper's writings on lithium orotate are available in packet form from the Brewer Science Library for $9.50.)
Posted by joebob on August 2, 2003, at 21:22:50
In reply to Paulie, Re: LITHIUM OROTATE, posted by McPac on June 1, 2003, at 11:59:28
those who try the orotate form, either alone or as an addition to the pharms?
and all the toxicity tests should be in a regular blood panel, or no?
with all you guys out there it seems someone should know, or be able to find out pretty quick
in the distant past when i used it aa a nutional supp, not for psych purposes, people seemed to like it and feel better using it
the sodium thing mentioned in the neiper article i posted just previous to this seemed to make sense to me at the time, but i'm fading now and need to go and eat
sorry, i think the depakote makes my memory even worse than usual
thnx
Posted by destinie on August 18, 2003, at 21:24:40
In reply to Re: LITHIUM OROTATE » Janelle, posted by Paulie on May 31, 2003, at 10:01:49
Boy, I tell you what! I had a heck of a time signing up, but I made it. Anyway, just found this web site today and am I glad to hear other people out there have this stuff too. Well, I knew that other people had it, just never met any.
I wanted to comment on my situation in case it helps anyone. I have what is called hypo-adrenalism, which completly complicated my bi-polar condition for 10 years. I was given a saliva test to take and there it all was, i had basically no cordisol or dhea. My symtoms were that of costant fatigue, contant muscle aches,could be in bed for days and weeks sometimes, sugar cravings amongst other off and on things. So there is a web site out there called "Gails thyroid tips". She adress alot of issues that might be of some help to some people. Hypo adreanalism is a real thing and can take years to diagnose is ever. It truely can effect your meds for bipolar, or at least keep you on a relentless search for meds that work. Please forgive my spelling, I started slow release lithium 2 weeks ago and I cant seem to remember how to spell.
Posted by tealady on September 2, 2003, at 20:55:41
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 8:51:48
>Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection.
Is this the filtration rate overall is lowered by the lithium oratate, meaning I assume that kidney function is impaired?? OR the amount of lithium filtered out is lower than with a placebi...so do we have lithium in our blodd normally if we don't supplement?
<The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, >
Lar, I only understand a glimmer of this and of the equilibrium between intra, inter cellular and blood stream and ion transfer etc..
It seems they are saying that with oratate, the kidneys do not filter out the lithium as much, and yet there is MORE lithium in the heart, kidneys and presumably other organs..like brain, thyroid etc..and the kidney WEIGHT is increased..presumably as it is not functioning as well??<the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function.>
So it looks like they may be saying you do get highrr levels in the organs but the kidneys are no longer filtering the blood efficiently, so the lithium stays in the kidney, brain, thyroid, heart etc and doesn't get removed as fast?
Does this mean the kidnys themselves are not removing other things as fast also?..I'm assuming so..
I have heard many folks swear that orotates were better and the way to go..eg. calcium orotate, magnesium oratate, potassium orotate.
Does the oratate itself affect the kidneys ? and is this why the orotate form of minerals "works" betterLike should we AVOID orotates as it may harm kidney function.
For others like me who have no idea on the kidneys , I came across this, which helps explain kidbey function
http://rarediseases.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.niddk.nih.gov%2Fhealth%2Fkidney%2Fpubs%2Fglomer%2Fglomer.htmI found this interesting as I had low albumin levels ..a tad below normal range.
I finally** got to see a neurologist yesterday at the hospital outpatients. They are going to check me out for Lupus as well as an EEG and MRI, and blood tests.
I decided NOT to go and get the blood tests yesterday as I have just been taking very large doses of camagnesium carbonate and ascorbic acid..mixed together with a little water and zinc picolinate and B6..as well as normal vits and fish oil etc I thought this may affect the blood tests , especially as one is for calc/ magnesium levels.
How long will it take after I stop my high dose
"safe chelation" regime..I have had amalgam removed and another tomorrow) before my blood levls of mibnerals return to my "normal" body levels? Would 2 weeks be OK?
** This is a direct consequence of tyrosine allowing me to actually be assertive, or is that aggressive? I phoned around to find a neurologist,booked an appointment, said I had a referral from a GP...then got one, even though he had previously actually told me he wouldn't refer me. I just typed up a list of symptoms and said we had discussed this and he was going to refer me to a different neurologist privately, he hadn't.(some cheek hey)
He had told me my tingling hands, feet, coordination, numbness, lack of muscular control, bladder etc had nothing to do with my brain and patiently explained in slow speech that these were peripheral and neurology was inside my brain...... and I was probably just hyperventilating and causing all my problems. The point is tyrosine has made me not allow myself to be content with only just being alive. and just be fobbed off. And I can see that my health needs at least looking at too, so that hopefully one day I can be better and go back to work etc,.
The last time I trialled tyrosine , I ended up phoning a dentist and demanding that they give me another "free" appointment for my $120 fee. I had paid it up at the surgery,...before going on tyrosine after he had quickly dismissed me for an emergency case and just run my OPG thru a computer, gave me a printout of my fillings and never even looked inside my mouth or answered any of my questions about filling material.
Without the tyrosine , I would just let myself get all upset..with the tyrosine I act..
I know I don't need more than the 500mg tyrosine..I could get real aggressive
Anyone else find this effect of tyrosine?
Jan
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 21:07:15
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 2, 2003, at 20:55:41
Tyrosine is an energizing amino acid but your symptoms make me think thyroid. Have you had yours checked? Tyrosine is necessary in the phenylalanine/tyrosine/thryoxine conversion and all your tingling symtpoms and some of the rest spell hypothyroid pretty clear to me. As far as Li Orotate, save your moo-lah. I got it in the midst of a hypomanic phase when I ran out of my regular thyroid, wanting to believe the hype that the Serenity people promised - it entered the bloodstream faster, needed less, etc. It was like taking nothing at all. I hung on for 7-8 days and was very disappointed. - BCat
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 21:39:47
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 2, 2003, at 20:55:41
Folks, save your money on this one. Sorry to bust anyone's hopes but I must admit I got seduced and let down by Lithium Orotate, sold to me by Serenity who has reams of the Hans Nieper research on their website. Perhaps there's another product besides Serenity that works, but they're supposedly doing the cutting edge research on Nieper's product (or maybe it's just cutting edge marketing) and I don't think you're going to find anything any different or better.
Would be nice if it worked the way they say and I guess it's very possible. Makes sense that a lithium molecule would want to hitch a more efficient ride on the orotic or aspartic acid transport system. But it just didn't work. Not for me. I was in the midst of a hypomania after my lithium order got delayed in the mail. In the meantime I got my lith orotate in the mail and thought to try an experiment. I first took the recommended amount and kept getting more hyper, then went up to double the amount and it was like drinking water. In short, it did nothing for arresting my hypomania. I lasted 8 days and was quickly depleting my bank account, something I'm wont to do to pass the time before raving mania sets in. Perhaps if I'd just kept increasing I would have eventually gotten a response, but then what's the point of switching from my tried and true lithium for 10 times the cost?
I went through a washout period for a few days and continued to escalate into full blown mania. Went back on good ol' lithium citrate prescription and came down in 3 days.
Perhaps lith orotate is fine for people who want to supplement their diet with a little bit of lithium, perhaps hope to nourish brain cells with extra BDNF, but it sure wasn't enough to put a dent in my symptoms and I sure wouldn't trust it to treat BP. If you simply MUST try it, there are other places on the web where you can get it for $10 vs. Serenity's $40 a pop - just do a search. Serenity's claim that their more expensive proprietary 'enteric coating' provides enhanced bioavailability is pure bull. Sure didn't enhance it for me! I like the idea, wish it worked, but it did not, not even a teensy bit. I have great doubts about all the 'miracle cure' products like Becalm'd, True Hope, Serenity, and all the many others who seem to be preying on those who will do anything for relief. If someone out there has gotten true relief then I stand corrected, but I've never heard of anyone responding even slightly to the promises offered by these products. - Barbara
Posted by tealady on September 2, 2003, at 22:21:50
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » tealady, posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 21:07:15
> Tyrosine is an energizing amino acid but your symptoms make me think thyroid. Have you had yours checked? Tyrosine is necessary in the phenylalanine/tyrosine/thryoxine conversion and all your tingling symtpoms and some of the rest spell hypothyroid pretty clear to me. As far as Li Orotate, save your moo-lah. I got it in the midst of a hypomanic phase when I ran out of my regular thyroid, wanting to believe the hype that the Serenity people promised - it entered the bloodstream faster, needed less, etc. It was like taking nothing at all. I hung on for 7-8 days and was very disappointed. - BCat
Hi Barb,
Yes I've been on thryoid meds for 2 years now. Trying adding in tryosine as the thyrooid meds don't seem to be the complete answer, and don't seem to work as they should do on me either...probably increased fatigue and much more brain fog..but other symptoms much improved.
I'm now on "armour" plus T4 and tyrosine.
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 9:48:48
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 2, 2003, at 20:55:41
> >Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection.
>
> Is this the filtration rate overall is lowered by the lithium oratate, meaning I assume that kidney function is impaired??That's what it means. Overall kidney function is impaired (decreased filtration rate), and fluid is being retained (decreased urine output), suggesting edema.
> OR the amount of lithium filtered out is lower than with a placebi...
Lithium clearance was also impaired, meaning that the ratio of plasma lithium to urine lithium has increased. I see that as a consequence of the decreased filtration rate. Other substances which should have left the body in urine would also be retained to a greater degree.
The article in question was comparing equal amounts of lithium, supplied as the carbonate or orotate. Just to put that into context, Serenity's proponents are suggesting that a vastly lower supply of lithium, as the orotate salt, is equivalent to the more typical dose of lithium carbonate. I can find no evidence of dose-ranging studies of that equivalence. Lithium orotate was tried in human trials back in the 70's, and was abandoned, although I'm having trouble finding out exactly why (modern references are far more informative).
> so do we have lithium in our blodd normally if we don't supplement?
Yes, but at nowhere near the concentrations seen after the use of lithium salts.
> <The renal lithium clearance was significantly lower, >
> Lar, I only understand a glimmer of this and of the equilibrium between intra, inter cellular and blood stream and ion transfer etc..Without revisiting those concepts literally, I was describing processes which are driven by laws of nature. Wherever a high concentration of something exists, that concentration will tend to dissipate, via entropy. Wherever high concentrations of e.g. lithium ions exist in the body, that concentration will tend to be reduced by osmosis between compartments, and diffusion. So, as the kidneys dump lithium, concentrations of lithium will fall everywhere. The way the body gets around these laws of entropy is by employing transporters, energy-consuming ion pumps, in the case of lithium.
If there wasn't very much lithium to begin with (even the proponents of lithium orotate acknowledge there is little in the blood at any one time), then the brain cells will lose what little they have obtained (even if the orotate somehow navigates to the brain). Even the ion pumps will fail if there isn't very much lithium around to pump. There are other organs that have very high affinities for orotic acid (liver, kidney and heart), so there is little likelihood, IMHO, that the brain will get any sort of preferential delivery. Nor will it retain lithium when the concentration gradient runs "downhill" towards the bloodstream, and away from the brain.
> It seems they are saying that with oratate, the kidneys do not filter out the lithium as much, and yet there is MORE lithium in the heart, kidneys and presumably other organs..like brain, thyroid etc..and the kidney WEIGHT is increased..presumably as it is not functioning as well??
Probably edema, but I don't that's a good thing.
You will recall that I mentioned that the rat study used equivalent amounts of the two lithium salts. By whatever mechanism more lithium is retained in these tissues, current human dosage recommendations (as given at the Serenity site, for example) are so very low relative to therapeutic doses of the carbonate or citrate prescribed for mood stabilization, I cannot see how the orotate could possibly work, as described.
> <the kidney weight and the lithium concentrations in serum, kidney and heart significantly higher after injection of lithium orotate than after injection of lithium carbonate. The higher lithium concentrations could be accounted for by the lower kidney function.>
>
> So it looks like they may be saying you do get highrr levels in the organs but the kidneys are no longer filtering the blood efficiently, so the lithium stays in the kidney, brain, thyroid, heart etc and doesn't get removed as fast?That's what they're suggesting. Rather than a higher delivery/uptake rate, they're saying that the higher retention is due to kidney toxicity.
> Does this mean the kidnys themselves are not removing other things as fast also?..I'm assuming so..
I would make the same assumption.
> I have heard many folks swear that orotates were better and the way to go..eg. calcium orotate, magnesium oratate, potassium orotate.
> Does the oratate itself affect the kidneys ? and is this why the orotate form of minerals "works" betterQuite possibly. There is one profound form of ignorance carried over from generation to generation, which is epitomized by the existence of lists such as GRAS (generally recognized as safe), used for food additives, for example. Substances on that list have probably never been tested for safety. That we have used them for years, and no one has *obviously* died from their use, does not mean they are safe. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
At present, I will scrupulously avoid two forms of salts, those with orotate, and those with piccolinate.
> Like should we AVOID orotates as it may harm kidney function.You anticipate me well. :-)
> For others like me who have no idea on the kidneys , I came across this, which helps explain kidbey function
> http://rarediseases.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.niddk.nih.gov%2Fhealth%2Fkidney%2Fpubs%2Fglomer%2Fglomer.htmI don't have time to go there right now, but I thank you for providing the references that you do. I've bookmarked many of them.
> I found this interesting as I had low albumin levels ..a tad below normal range.I'd have to look more closely, to see what that might suggest.
> I finally** got to see a neurologist yesterday at the hospital outpatients. They are going to check me out for Lupus as well as an EEG and MRI, and blood tests.Why lupus, in particular? My diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome (as it is for everyone's) was arrived at by determining that I did not have lupus or any other of the so-called rheumatic diseases. It's a diagnosis of exclusion.
> I decided NOT to go and get the blood tests yesterday as I have just been taking very large doses of camagnesium carbonate and ascorbic acid..mixed together with a little water and zinc picolinate and B6..as well as normal vits and fish oil etc I thought this may affect the blood tests , especially as one is for calc/ magnesium levels.
> How long will it take after I stop my high dose
> "safe chelation" regime..I have had amalgam removed and another tomorrow) before my blood levls of mibnerals return to my "normal" body levels? Would 2 weeks be OK?Two or three days should suffice. Two weeks would be better, just because you want to be sure your tests are representative of your body's homeostasis.
> ** This is a direct consequence of tyrosine allowing me to actually be assertive, or is that aggressive? I phoned around to find a neurologist,booked an appointment, said I had a referral from a GP...then got one, even though he had previously actually told me he wouldn't refer me. I just typed up a list of symptoms and said we had discussed this and he was going to refer me to a different neurologist privately, he hadn't.(some cheek hey)
Whatever works. Go girl!
> He had told me my tingling hands, feet, coordination, numbness, lack of muscular control, bladder etc had nothing to do with my brain and patiently explained in slow speech that these were peripheral and neurology was inside my brain...... and I was probably just hyperventilating and causing all my problems. The point is tyrosine has made me not allow myself to be content with only just being alive. and just be fobbed off. And I can see that my health needs at least looking at too, so that hopefully one day I can be better and go back to work etc,.
The peripheral neurological signs you describe are quite familiar to me. Been there, but not now. I wish I could tell you just what in particular I did about it, but there have been so many changes.
> The last time I trialled tyrosine , I ended up phoning a dentist and demanding that they give me another "free" appointment for my $120 fee. I had paid it up at the surgery,...before going on tyrosine after he had quickly dismissed me for an emergency case and just run my OPG thru a computer, gave me a printout of my fillings and never even looked inside my mouth or answered any of my questions about filling material.
> Without the tyrosine , I would just let myself get all upset..with the tyrosine I act..I like what I'm reading. That's an excellent testimonial to tyrosine supplementation.
> I know I don't need more than the 500mg tyrosine..I could get real aggressive
> Anyone else find this effect of tyrosine?
> Jan
I've been using DLPA, but I've just about run out. I've got some tyrosine. I'll let you know.Hugs,
Lar
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 4, 2003, at 14:06:39
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate?, posted by tealady on September 2, 2003, at 22:21:50
I keep banging the drum re adequate overall hormone levels. Estrogen directly affects thyroid, whether low or high. Of course, getting my hormones attended to recently by my naturopath will be proof in the pudding. Her feeling is that when human growth hormone levels are down, as mine drastically showed in my tests, most hormones will work only sporadically since low HGH levels basically show that the pituitary isn't functioning well enough to support any hypothalamus/pituitary health. Again, we'll see now that I'm injecting myself daily with HGH.
As far as tyrosine, it needs certain cofactors to work adequately and taken at certain times of day, etc., but I'm sure it poses no cure to hypothyroidism. I have found that tyrosine does give me a lift, however. You might want to download this .pdf eBook that gives tons of info about amino acids and mood health. Patricia Slagle is a little heavy on the nutritional miracle cure theory, but there's a lot of very good detailed info on taking aminos that you probably won't find anywhere else all in one place.
http://www.thewayup.com/ebook/ebook.htm
> > Tyrosine is an energizing amino acid but your symptoms make me think thyroid. Have you had yours checked? Tyrosine is necessary in the phenylalanine/tyrosine/thryoxine conversion and all your tingling symtpoms and some of the rest spell hypothyroid pretty clear to me. As far as Li Orotate, save your moo-lah. I got it in the midst of a hypomanic phase when I ran out of my regular thyroid, wanting to believe the hype that the Serenity people promised - it entered the bloodstream faster, needed less, etc. It was like taking nothing at all. I hung on for 7-8 days and was very disappointed. - BCat
> Hi Barb,
> Yes I've been on thryoid meds for 2 years now. Trying adding in tryosine as the thyrooid meds don't seem to be the complete answer, and don't seem to work as they should do on me either...probably increased fatigue and much more brain fog..but other symptoms much improved.
> I'm now on "armour" plus T4 and tyrosine.
> Jan
>
>
Posted by tealady on September 6, 2003, at 22:49:47
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 9:48:48
Hi Lar,
Thank you so much for your replies. Your feedback means so much to me, and to a lot of folks here.
> Why lupus, in Why lupus, in particular? My diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome (as it is for everyone's) was arrived at by determining that I did not have lupus or any other of the so-called rheumatic diseases. It's a diagnosis of exclusion.
Only as it some of my cousins have lupus,thyroid antibodies or both. I only found out last year. Looks like all females on my fathers side of the family. Just wanted to rule it out.> I decided NOT to go and get the blood tests yesterday as I have just been taking very large doses of cal/magnesium carbonate and ascorbic acid..mixed together with a little water and zinc picolinate and B6..as well as normal vits and fish oil etc I thought this may affect the blood tests , especially as one is for calc/ magnesium levels.
> How long will it take after I stop my high dose
> "safe chelation" regime..I have had amalgam removed and another tomorrow) before my blood levls of minerals return to my "normal" body levels? Would 2 weeks be OK?Two or three days should suffice. Two weeks would be better, just because you want to be sure your tests are representative of your body's homeostasis.
Ok, I'll wait 2 weeks then. Will continue this on the alternative board.
> I've been using DLPA, but I've just about run out. I've got some tyrosine. I'll let you know.
> Hugs,
> LarHugs, Jan <g>
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 7, 2003, at 13:44:30
In reply to Re: Larry what do you think about lithium orotate? » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 9:48:48
> > > Glomerular filtration rate and urine flow were markedly lower in rats given lithium orotate than in rats given lithium carbonate, sodium chloride or a sham injection.
Just a note that this aspect of this discussion has already been redirected to the new Psycho-Babble Alternative board. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/257732.html
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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