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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ima on September 2, 2003, at 0:37:21
Im currently on 9oomgs of Nerontin (and counting).
Not happy
As I ve read on this site, (correct me if this inacurate)
LAMICTAL is an ANTI- convulsant.
NEURONTIN is an ANTI- seizure.
How is this different?
Thanx
peace
Ima
Posted by galkeepinon on September 2, 2003, at 3:11:20
In reply to ANTI- VS. ANTI-, posted by Ima on September 2, 2003, at 0:37:21
Ima, An *anti-convulsant* is (anti=against, convulsions=seizures) meaning it prevents seizures.
Does this help?
PEACE
:-)
> Im currently on 9oomgs of Nerontin (and counting).
>
> Not happy
>
> As I ve read on this site, (correct me if this inacurate)
>
> LAMICTAL is an ANTI- convulsant.
>
> NEURONTIN is an ANTI- seizure.
>
> How is this different?
>
> Thanx
> peace
> Ima
>
Posted by Ima on September 2, 2003, at 22:12:06
In reply to Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI- » Ima, posted by galkeepinon on September 2, 2003, at 3:11:20
Im sorry if my post was confusing.
Is there a difference between an anti-siezure med
and an anti convulsants.Neurontin vs. Lamictal
Convulsions and siezures sound alot a like. Is this a symantical distinction?
Or are these two drugs affecting the brain in really different ways.
Im on neurontin and Im not very happy with it. Ive many good things on this site about lamictal.
Are they similar?
ThanxPeace
Ima
Posted by galkeepinon on September 3, 2003, at 3:33:41
In reply to Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI- » galkeepinon, posted by Ima on September 2, 2003, at 22:12:06
Neurontin made me very sluggish and tired, where as Lamictal doesn't. This is my experience.
I did some searching in Dr. Bob's archives and saw this post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000429/msgs/31755.html
Also, a very knowledgeable poster here, 'Larry Hoover' would most likely be able to help you better on your other questions.
I will *page* him at the heading of your post and hope he sees it LOL :-)
I wish you the best!
Hope this helped a little.
> Im sorry if my post was confusing.
>
> Is there a difference between an anti-siezure med
> and an anti convulsants.
>
> Neurontin vs. Lamictal
>
> Convulsions and siezures sound alot a like. Is this a symantical distinction?
>
> Or are these two drugs affecting the brain in really different ways.
>
> Im on neurontin and Im not very happy with it. Ive many good things on this site about lamictal.
>
> Are they similar?
> Thanx
>
> Peace
> Ima
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 3, 2003, at 8:24:12
In reply to PAGING LARRY HOOVER~PLEASE Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI- » Ima, posted by galkeepinon on September 3, 2003, at 3:33:41
Anticonvulsant, antiseizure -- tomato, tomahto. :-) But yes, as galkeepinon said, Lamictal seems to be more activating than Neurontin, and even possesses some pretty powerful antidepressant effects. In my personal experience Neurontin is good to "take the edge off", but that's about it.
Posted by yibyib on September 3, 2003, at 20:08:17
In reply to Re: PAGING LARRY HOOVER~PLEASE Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI- » galkeepinon, posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 3, 2003, at 8:24:12
> Anticonvulsant, antiseizure -- tomato, tomahto. :-) But yes, as galkeepinon said, Lamictal seems to be more activating than Neurontin, and even possesses some pretty powerful antidepressant effects. In my personal experience Neurontin is good to "take the edge off", but that's about it.
> Anticonvulsant, antiseizure -- tomato, tomahto. :-) But yes, as galkeepinon said, Lamictal seems to be more activating than Neurontin, and even possesses some pretty powerful antidepressant effects. In my personal experience Neurontin is good to "take the edge off", but that's about it.
Ame Sans Vie,
Thanks for clearing the air.
"Same diff" as they say in lower circles. ha!
Neurontin was great for taking the edge off of Tegretol for me. And I when i say the edge, I mean Tegretol left a very ragged edge.
And now with very different meds, at 600mg PM Neurontin really helps with sleep. Ah, what a relief it is.
A limited vocabulary. That is how I think of Neurontin. But like a little head in a ratchet set it might gather dust until it finds the right use. and the right user.
Di
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 8:50:58
In reply to PAGING LARRY HOOVER~PLEASE Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI- » Ima, posted by galkeepinon on September 3, 2003, at 3:33:41
> Neurontin made me very sluggish and tired, where as Lamictal doesn't. This is my experience.
> I did some searching in Dr. Bob's archives and saw this post:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000429/msgs/31755.html
> Also, a very knowledgeable poster here, 'Larry Hoover' would most likely be able to help you better on your other questions.
> I will *page* him at the heading of your post and hope he sees it LOL :-)That's the way to get my attention. ;-)
> I wish you the best!
> Hope this helped a little.
>
>
>
>
> > Im sorry if my post was confusing.
> >
> > Is there a difference between an anti-siezure med
> > and an anti convulsants.No.
> > Neurontin vs. Lamictal
> >
> > Convulsions and siezures sound alot a like. Is this a symantical distinction?They're interchangeable words, for all intents and purposes.
> > Or are these two drugs affecting the brain in really different ways.The drugs definitely work in different ways, but some of the effects overlap.
> > Im on neurontin and Im not very happy with it. Ive many good things on this site about lamictal.
> >
> > Are they similar?
> > Thanx
> >
> > Peace
> > ImaNot similar chemically. Similar in some effects. The use of anti-convulsant medication as a mood stabilizer in bipolar disorder does not follow a clear logical path (There are theories, but that's not what I'm talking about. Bipolar disorder is not considered to be a seizure disorder.) We do it because we understand the general effect on people with bipolar disorder. Their mood is more stable and predictable.
Neurontin, in my opinion, is often overhyped for use as a mood stabilizer. For some, it is ideal, but many people are disappointed by it. Lamictal seems to be useful to a larger percentage of people than is Neurontin.
Lar
Posted by galkeepinon on September 5, 2003, at 13:49:48
In reply to Re: PAGING LARRY HOOVER~PLEASE Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI-, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 8:50:58
Posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 16:31:49
In reply to Re: PAGING LARRY HOOVER~PLEASE Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI-, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2003, at 8:50:58
Lar,
Does Lamictal act on the serotonergic system to an appreciable degree?
Also, would you happen to know if Lamictal affected the temporal lobe area of the brain to a significant degree?
Thanks!
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2003, at 8:00:02
In reply to Lar, LARRY HOOVER~PLEASE Re: ANTI- VS. ANTI-, posted by McPac on September 5, 2003, at 16:31:49
> Lar,
>
> Does Lamictal act on the serotonergic system to an appreciable degree?Yes, but.... (see below)
> Also, would you happen to know if Lamictal affected the temporal lobe area of the brain to a significant degree?
> Thanks!Lamictal effects cannot be isolated to a single brain region. It affects all parts of the body. That's true of any drug.
Lamictal can affect serotonergic neurotransmission, (e.g. 5-HT1a-receptor activity is known), but the mechanism is not clear.
Pacman, I understand why you're asking all these questions, but you're focussing a lot of energy on theories about theories. We don't know that serotonergic activity is the primary cause of any mental disorder. It's a theory that it is, but the evidence is all correlative (as opposed to causative). Based on that serotonin theory, a whole class of medications have been developed, but how they work is not known. We only have theories about how they work. We've got pieces of the puzzle, but we don't have the big picture. To extend the puzzle metaphor, we don't have the carton the puzzle came in (with a picture of what it ought to look like) to guide us. I always think about the six blind men and the elephant when I think about our "state-of-the-art" knowledge of the brain.
I find mechanisms to be a very unsatisfactory representation of how the brain works. They limit thought more than they expand it. If you are forced to make an educated guess, you might as well apply one of the recent theories, but you can't rely on the conclusions you reach, in my perhaps not so humble opinion.
Regards,
Lar
Posted by McPac on September 7, 2003, at 11:32:01
In reply to Re: Lamictal.... » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2003, at 8:00:02
Hi Lar,
"I understand why you're asking all these questions"
>>>>>>>>>>> (bet you don't, lol)
The reason why I was asking about the Lamictal/serotonergic connection is because the ssri's, despite always helping my dep/ocd VERY WELL, have also caused me a terrible, nasty problem as well---the ssri's all INDUCE terrible, significant anger/irritability symptoms in me (Prozac was TERRIBLE, the others bad too)...it seems like the problem has gotten worse....when I go off the ssri's then that anger disappears (it IS med-induced)....anyway, Lamictal did the SAME thing to me when I tried it last year (which is why I wondered if Lamictal had the serotonergic effect, like the ssri's, that Doc Amen says is the cause FOR CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS (fortunately for most folks they DON'T get that reaction,......I never knew what to make of that crap, I never knew why that happened...then I was reading Doc Amen's book, "Change Your Brain, Change Your Life" and couldn't believe it when he said that he screens for such problems w/ his patients and said that happens due to temporal lobe issues and the serotonin-increasing meds....that was exactly the same reaction those meds caused in me....I don't know what the solution is though as he really didn't seem to say what he does in THESE cases (I think he either switches to other meds or uses Depakote/Tegretol to block effect?).....but for me the ssri's and meds that were said to increase serotonergic activity are always what has worked so well (for dep. and esp. for ocd, the serotonergic meds are all that does work well)....there's only a small handful of meds used for ocd and they are all serotonergic meds.....but I had wondered why Lamictal caused the same ssri-induced anger, it figures, it increases serotonin activity, Doc Amen is the only person I've seen that has mentioned that peculiar scenario, I just wish he had specifically mentioned what he does then in those situations......may have to go back on an ssri too (major bummer...my symptoms will improve but the anger/irrit will be there...may have to add Depakote, perhaps that will counter the anger side effect better than lithium????) (Imagine KNOWING what meds (ssri's) make you feel great and resolve your symptoms BUT you get terrible, dreadful anger/irrit/agitation from those meds! Any thoughts Lar? IF I go back to ssri's (my symptoms are worsening a great deal without them and I'll probably have to do that), would Depakote likely counter the anger better than lithium? Oh, one last question, does Depakote significantly increase serotonin activity? (I do NOT want it to! Lamictal worsened the problem because it did. I know the ssri will increase that but I need IT to in order to help my symptoms; but then I need an anti-conv.-type med to block the ssri-induced anger (so I do NOT want the anti-conv. med to further increase serotonin)....capiche? (understand?).....Thanks!!!!!!!
Posted by yibyib on September 8, 2003, at 18:46:51
In reply to Anti vs antic paging Dr. Kildare?, posted by yibyib on September 3, 2003, at 20:08:17
Hey now Gal,
Didn't you post your email somewhere?
Can I call you if I have med questions?
In the words of that immortal (well, sort of) bossa, "call me, maybe it's late but just call me..."
Posted by galkeepinon on September 8, 2003, at 23:39:22
In reply to Anti vs antic paging Gal, now., posted by yibyib on September 8, 2003, at 18:46:51
Hey there,
Yeah, I posted my email around here somewheres.
I'm not a doctor yib, but you're certainly welcome to email me.
:-)> Hey now Gal,
>
> Didn't you post your email somewhere?
>
> Can I call you if I have med questions?
>
> In the words of that immortal (well, sort of) bossa, "call me, maybe it's late but just call me..."
>
>
Posted by McPac on September 10, 2003, at 22:56:04
In reply to Re: Lamictal...., posted by McPac on September 7, 2003, at 11:32:01
Posted by McPac on September 7, 2003, at 11:32:01
In reply to Re: Lamictal.... » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2003, at 8:00:02
Hi Lar,
"I understand why you're asking all these questions"
>>>>>>>>>>> (bet you don't, lol)
The reason why I was asking about the Lamictal/serotonergic connection is because the ssri's, despite always helping my dep/ocd VERY WELL, have also caused me a terrible, nasty problem as well---the ssri's all INDUCE terrible, significant anger/irritability symptoms in me (Prozac was TERRIBLE, the others bad too)...it seems like the problem has gotten worse....when I go off the ssri's then that anger disappears (it IS med-induced)....anyway, Lamictal did the SAME thing to me when I tried it last year (which is why I wondered if Lamictal had the serotonergic effect, like the ssri's, that Doc Amen says is the cause FOR CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS (fortunately for most folks they DON'T get that reaction,......I never knew what to make of that crap, I never knew why that happened...then I was reading Doc Amen's book, "Change Your Brain, Change Your Life" and couldn't believe it when he said that he screens for such problems w/ his patients and said that happens due to temporal lobe issues and the serotonin-increasing meds....that was exactly the same reaction those meds caused in me....I don't know what the solution is though as he really didn't seem to say what he does in THESE cases (I think he either switches to other meds or uses Depakote/Tegretol to block effect?).....but for me the ssri's and meds that were said to increase serotonergic activity are always what has worked so well (for dep. and esp. for ocd, the serotonergic meds are all that does work well)....there's only a small handful of meds used for ocd and they are all serotonergic meds.....but I had wondered why Lamictal caused the same ssri-induced anger, it figures, it increases serotonin activity, Doc Amen is the only person I've seen that has mentioned that peculiar scenario, I just wish he had specifically mentioned what he does then in those situations......may have to go back on an ssri too (major bummer...my symptoms will improve but the anger/irrit will be there...may have to add Depakote, perhaps that will counter the anger side effect better than lithium????) (Imagine KNOWING what meds (ssri's) make you feel great and resolve your symptoms BUT you get terrible, dreadful anger/irrit/agitation from those meds! Any thoughts Lar? IF I go back to ssri's (my symptoms are worsening a great deal without them and I'll probably have to do that), would Depakote likely counter the anger better than lithium? Oh, one last question, does Depakote significantly increase serotonin activity? (I do NOT want it to! Lamictal worsened the problem because it did. I know the ssri will increase that but I need IT to in order to help my symptoms; but then I need an anti-conv.-type med to block the ssri-induced anger (so I do NOT want the anti-conv. med to further increase serotonin)....capiche? (understand?).....Thanks!!!!!!!
Posted by JaneB on September 11, 2003, at 12:41:59
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Lamictal...., posted by McPac on September 10, 2003, at 22:56:04
Lamictal and Wellbutrin were the two medicines that gave me that anger/irritability. Shocked everyone because anger/irritability was void in my life. I probably would have benefited by a little capability to express anger in the past but not now. Those two meds also gave headaches. AD's contributed to cyclothymia. I need to balance any AD with clonazepam (chosen originally because I refused depakote.) I finally decided to try clonazepam w/o an AD and feel better! The AD's that are supposed to decrease anxiety only increase it in me: ex, zoloft, effexor, wellbutrin, lexapro. Go figure.... That is why I wonder why doctors continue to use AD's for anxiety as first line treatment. Perhaps if years ago I had recognized my real problem was anxiety I would not have succumbed to such a severe depression.??
Jane
Posted by McPac on September 11, 2003, at 21:44:27
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Lamictal.... » McPac, posted by JaneB on September 11, 2003, at 12:41:59
>>>>Hi Jane,
Lamictal and Wellbutrin were the two medicines that gave me that anger/irritability.
>>>>>>>>>> Was the anger/irrit quite bad? (It can be REALLY bad for me on the "wrong" meds at a higher dose)
AD's contributed to cyclothymia. I need to balance any AD with clonazepam (chosen originally because I refused depakote.)>>>>>> Let me get this straight Jane.....they wanted to put you on Depakote to counter the anger caused by the AD's? But you chose Klonopin.
I finally decided to try clonazepam w/o an AD and feel better! The AD's that are supposed to decrease anxiety only increase it in me: ex, zoloft, effexor, wellbutrin, lexapro. Go figure....>>>>>>> I can understand that.
That is why I wonder why doctors continue to use AD's for anxiety as first line treatment.
>>>>>>>> Because they are benzophobes...also, they are bombarded by the pharm. co's mass advertising about how safe and side effect-free(lol) the ssri's are.
Perhaps if years ago I had recognized my real problem was anxiety I would not have succumbed to such a severe depression.??
>>>>>>>>>>> That's very likely in your situation! As for me, I have been seriously thinking about adding Klonopin for some time, to balance out the AD's (which I do need) and also for the extra anti-anxiety effect as well. Keeping anxiety at bay helps keep depression at bay as well for many folks. Take care!
Posted by tealady on September 15, 2003, at 4:36:41
In reply to Re: Lamictal.... » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on September 6, 2003, at 8:00:02
Hi McPac,
Just thought you may like to know that other docs also know of the high SSRI anger effect..like it is a known thing. I have also read that too low serontonin causes this..but mostly isn't it depression with too low serotonin?
I THINK it is because the serotonin follows an undesired pathway..and I guess you have to either alter something like exercise, diet, supplements or other drugs to force it into the correct pathway, or get a new body....easy hey!<g>
No idea of anything beyond that. Hope you find your doc can help with with soemthing to add or change to.
I remember (a no longer practising) doc(not a pdoc, more into metabolism) who has commented on it, in a thyroid forum she used to answer queries on..so I copied some of her posts on serotonin. Not really informative as she used to answer so many posts every day, and this is not really her area of expertise
If you want to read them , I copied some posts to
http://www.geocities.com/jan55qld/Larrian_Serotonin.htm
Just thought it may help you ...I don't know if anyone could really advise on what changes you would need to prevent this reaction, it may not even be possible...in which case a different type of drug is probably needed, or a combo.
I know, not much help, really know nothing about this...
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 15, 2003, at 5:10:25
In reply to Re: Lamictal.... » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 15, 2003, at 4:36:41
Above post was meant for you
Jan
Posted by tealady on September 15, 2003, at 15:58:29
In reply to Re: Lamictal.... » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 15, 2003, at 4:36:41
McPAC,
<I THINK it is because the serotonin follows an undesired pathway..and I guess you have to either alter something like exercise, diet, supplements or other drugs to force it into the correct pathway, or get a new body....easy hey!<g>Sorry, I meant this in a joking way! Please don't take read it the wrong way.
Perhaps this is a reason they are trying to develop new more selective SSRI drugs. Perhaps someone or your doc may be able to suggest one that has been designed not to do this, if it exists?
Sorry I do not know anything about this, or have ever experienced it. I was only trying to let you know that is does happen to some others as well and the medical profession should know about it.
Jan
Posted by JaneB on September 15, 2003, at 16:34:04
In reply to Jane, Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Lamictal...., posted by McPac on September 11, 2003, at 21:44:27
> >>>>Hi Jane,
>
> Lamictal and Wellbutrin were the two medicines that gave me that anger/irritability.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Was the anger/irrit quite bad? (It can be REALLY bad for me on the "wrong" meds at a higher dose)No, it wasn't that bad. Just not me. As I have thought about it more--it seemed that those meds just caused me to get angry when anger was justified. If it were not for the headaches I might be tempted to try them again. They were both combined with another AD and alopecia (if that is the right word for hair loss) increased. Being somewhat vain I opted to complain about the other side effects and was switched. I still need something for long term sleep difficulties and headaches.
>
> AD's contributed to cyclothymia. I need to balance any AD with clonazepam (chosen originally because I refused depakote.)
>
> >>>>>> Let me get this straight Jane.....they wanted to put you on Depakote to counter the anger caused by the AD's? But you chose Klonopin.Well, they wanted to put me on Depakote to counter the cycling caused by the Ad's. And yes I chose Klonopin which replaced Alprazolam and was presented as having the same anti-anxiety effect as Alprazolam but longer lasting.
>
> I finally decided to try clonazepam w/o an AD and feel better! The AD's that are supposed to decrease anxiety only increase it in me: ex, zoloft, effexor, wellbutrin, lexapro. Go figure....
>
> >>>>>>> I can understand that.
>
> That is why I wonder why doctors continue to use AD's for anxiety as first line treatment.
>
> >>>>>>>> Because they are benzophobes...also, they are bombarded by the pharm. co's mass advertising about how safe and side effect-free(lol) the ssri's are.
>
> Perhaps if years ago I had recognized my real problem was anxiety I would not have succumbed to such a severe depression.??
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> That's very likely in your situation! As for me, I have been seriously thinking about adding Klonopin for some time, to balance out the AD's (which I do need) and also for the extra anti-anxiety effect as well. Keeping anxiety at bay helps keep depression at bay as well for many folks. Take care!
>
I will look back and see what meds you are on.
>
Take care to you too.
Jane
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