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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Geezer on September 30, 2002, at 21:25:47
In reply to Concerns about the 'root cause' approach, posted by shar on September 30, 2002, at 21:09:32
I think you nailed it Char!
Posted by AlphaOne on October 1, 2002, at 0:06:04
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
I know of a guy who developed all a phobia that he was going to have a heart attack.
At the root of it lies that he is gay.
He won`t admit it to himself though.
Is your problem something into this direction?
Or childhood sexual abuse?
Posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:28:39
In reply to Re: Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by AlphaOne on October 1, 2002, at 0:06:04
Excuse me, I'm trying to help the people who may respond to therapy.
We know that many people with even severe depression can recover with therapy alone, so you drug junkies can just pipe down.
I recovered with a combination of drug and therapy. I love E Lilly and Co so much that I am tempted to buy shares.
Nevertheless the fact remains that where drugs are not working, it may be wise to look for a root cause and not keep popping pils.
To hope that pills alone will cure, when there may be a bit of dysfunctional thinking that needs correcting, is to face a lifetime of misery.
Posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:58:05
My discussion on why ADs don't work in some people is progressing to the top of the board and will soon be archived. So I am starting it up again here. I have found a useful quote at: http://www.financialsense.com/metals/sinclair/editorials/092602.htm
The article is about the economy, but it neatly sumarises what I think about depression therapy and drug treatment.
"A downward spiral in markets is not much different from a downward spiral in the human experience. In that sense, a downward spiral, such as depression, requires intervention in order to reverse it. Psychotropic drugs, as an intervention, are often prescribed in order to provide an intervened window that can prevent the depression down spiral from going to its predictable end. Should the patient grasp that opportunity provided by the intervention, taking a more positive look at their circumstance, real progress may occur in their lives."
That is what I am saying. Drugs alone are not enough. We need to grasp the window of oportunity that the drugs offer, or we will waste the effect.
Posted by turalizz on October 1, 2002, at 5:01:26
In reply to Depression in the economy and in people, posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:58:05
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 1, 2002, at 7:44:08
In reply to Its not drugs v therapy, posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:28:39
> We know that many people with even severe depression can recover with therapy alone, so you drug junkies can just pipe down.
Remember, the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Keeping that in mind, could you please rephrase the above? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 1, 2002, at 8:01:34
In reply to Depression in the economy and in people, posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:58:05
> My discussion on why ADs don't work in some people is progressing to the top of the board and will soon be archived. So I am starting it up again here.
Entire threads aren't archived, only the particular posts that have been up for a while. And keeping a thread together makes it easier for people to follow. So I've merged these two threads.
Bob
Posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 8:25:23
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Arthur Gibson, posted by Dr. Bob on October 1, 2002, at 7:44:08
I was hoping to get another "please be civil" for my "so you drug junkies can just pipe down" but I ended up with a "please re-phrase that" from the management.
I am not sure if a "please re-phrase that" is worth more or less points than a "please be civil" but I don't think that Mr Sad Puppy Dog ever scored a "please re-phrase that" so I conclude that I am still closing his lead on reprimands from Dr. Bob.
I lke and love everyone who reads or writes on this board and my only motivation is to assist their recovery from illness, just as they assisted my recovery.
So I will re-phrase "you drug junkies" to "the best contributors to any message board in the world."
"Pipe down" I will re-phrase to "stop disagreeing with me."
But you all knew that I meant that didn't you?!!
Posted by oracle on October 1, 2002, at 11:14:19
In reply to Its not drugs v therapy, posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:28:39
> Excuse me, I'm trying to help the people who may respond to therapy.
You are no listening that we do therapy
>
> We know that many people with even severe depression can recover with therapy alone, so you drug junkies can just pipe down.Thanks for making your point clear !
Posted by oracle on October 1, 2002, at 14:17:14
In reply to Depression in the economy and in people, posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:58:05
> That is what I am saying. Drugs alone are not enough. We need to grasp the window of oportunity that the drugs offer, or we will waste the effect.
I have been on AD's for over 20 years, and they
seem to be enough in my case. Given that they continue to work for all these years, I question
what you say about "we will waste the effect"If I had Diabetes, would you have me stop insulin ?
Posted by JLM on October 1, 2002, at 21:51:13
In reply to Re: Depression is completely chemical READ!., posted by oracle on September 30, 2002, at 14:34:30
> I'm appaled that the drug companies are genuinely in it for the money and not to give us a better quality of life.
> > Bonnie
> >
>
> Then how do you suggest a drug company pay for research and development of new drugs ?
>
My suggestion for them would be is:Instead of spending 2/3's of their money on advertising and 1/3 on drug development, spend more money on development. They could also spend way less money wooing the APA and psychiatrists with expensive lunches, vacations, and trips to the Bahama's.
Dunno, maybe I am just cynical? ;)
Posted by johnj on October 1, 2002, at 22:53:48
In reply to Re: Root causes, posted by colin wallace on September 30, 2002, at 4:29:11
Colin,
Happy to see you are feeling well. I agree that all I need is the right chemical in the right place and it will all come back. It is amazing how well I felt last week, not stressing over things and just feeling in control. Well, last night I didn't sleep well and was in a fog most of the day with anxiety. I hope tomorrow is starts another week like I had last. Still want off that damn TCA just a few more weeks until my exam and then the doc and I are going to talk. BTW what are you currently on? still some ami and val at night? Feel Good Colin.
Cheers
Johnj
Posted by colin wallace on October 2, 2002, at 3:54:49
In reply to Good for you! » colin wallace, posted by johnj on October 1, 2002, at 22:53:48
Hi John,
Yeah, I still find it hard to accept, when I look at this tiny 1/4 split 50mg lamictal pill, that this lil' baby is all it takes to mend my screwed up brain(so far, at least!)
I'm actually looking for a job right now, and facing the usual family stresses- but seem to be holding the line.
Still take the miniscule amitrip. at night, 2mg diazepam morgen fruh, mit lamictal.
Can exercise without probs, but drinkies are out-bummer!
Good luck with that exam- and the ssri trial.
Col.
Posted by bonnie_ann on October 2, 2002, at 5:26:10
In reply to Re: Depression is completely chemical READ!., posted by JLM on October 1, 2002, at 21:51:13
Posted by Arthur Gibson on October 2, 2002, at 10:37:46
In reply to That's what I meant NM (nm), posted by bonnie_ann on October 2, 2002, at 5:26:10
Colin Wallace didn't start this thread, I did and I have completely forgotten what I said although I seem to remember that it was good stuff.
If you delete what I say, how can I avoid contradicting myself?
Why is "Thanks Arthur" shoved right up the board on its own, when it was originally part of this thread. And what is he thanking me for? I don't remember sending him any money.
Its difficult enough me being on PROZAC and following the discussion, without the threads being shuffled like a pack of cards every day.
Posted by Dinah on October 2, 2002, at 10:53:10
In reply to Why has the start of this thread been deleted?, posted by Arthur Gibson on October 2, 2002, at 10:37:46
I have posted an explanation of what happened to the beginning of this thread on admin, since that is the proper forum for administrative questions.
Here is a link to my reply
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7640.html
Dinah
Posted by oracle on October 2, 2002, at 11:26:03
In reply to Re: Depression is completely chemical READ!., posted by JLM on October 1, 2002, at 21:51:13
> > Then how do you suggest a drug company pay for research and development of new drugs ?
> >
>
>
> My suggestion for them would be is:
>
> Instead of spending 2/3's of their money on advertising and 1/3 on drug development, spend more money on development. They could also spend way less money wooing the APA and psychiatrists with expensive lunches, vacations, and trips to the Bahama's.
>
> Dunno, maybe I am just cynical? ;)Oracle here....
I totally agree !
Posted by LostboyinNC2 on October 3, 2002, at 15:26:35
In reply to Re: Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by AlphaOne on October 1, 2002, at 0:06:04
I read Arthur Gibson's posts and the first thing that comes to mind is "this guy doesnt have a clue." The guy is a total idiot. He has a lot of gaul coming on here and trivializing and badmouthing people with severe depression. Like going to a psychologist and working on "issues" is going to resolve severe sleep cycles or fix severe depression induced cognition problems. Fat chance of that. You need DRUGS for that. Or ECT.
I have one thing to say to you Arthur. We dont need your kind. Go away. You are the sort who perpetrates these myths about mental illness being a so called "psychological" problem when its really a Neurological (brain) problem. Take a hike...please.
Its obvious that Arthur doesnt like taking meds deep down inside in his "subconscious" to use Freud words. He deeply resents taking meds, always has and always will. He will never come to terms completely with taking Prozac or whatever else drug he is on. So to compensate, he will come up with these psychological defense mechanisms, such as this claim that unless you go to a therapist and work on psychological issues you will never get better. That is so much BS.
Therapy is mostly for people with mild to moderate problems. It really has little to nothing to do with severe mental illness. Let Arthur go to his therapist, pay them $100 an hour to listen to him and come up with some psychobabble retort about the underlying cause of his "severe depression" which Im very skeptical Arthur ever had a severe depression to begin with. People with severe depression are usually desperate souls, desperate for anything to relieve their struggles and usually they dont have any problems with meds if their depression is severe enough.
So I say to Arthur, all I have to do is read your back posts, ones that say to the effect "meds create more problems than they fix" and I can see right thru you. Please take a hike dude and dont come back and trivialize the serious problems of some of those here with severe biological depressions.
Eric LOSTBOYinNC
Posted by LostboyinNC2 on October 3, 2002, at 15:37:30
In reply to Re: Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by AlphaOne on October 1, 2002, at 0:06:04
I found this article which states the exact same thing Ive been saying all along. That the people who need a QUALITY antidepressant the most are the ones least included in antidepressant drug clinical trials. That is, those with severe forms of depression (biological depressions, endogenous depressions, etc.) The people recruited into these new antidepressant drug trials the most are those with dysthymia and moderate depression. Thus, this is the main reason we keep hearing about this "placebo effect" crap. Im so sick and tired of hearing about the placebo effect. I suppose all those SSRI drug side effects like weight gain, delayed orgasm, dry mouth, etc. are "placebo effect" also, huh?
To quote directly from this article, "
"The greater relative benefit of antidepressant therapy among more severely depressed patients (e.g., Elkin et al., 2002, or Thase et al., 1997a) is offhandedly rejected as an artifact or "regression to the mean." Most recently, Khan and colleagues (2002) reported a steady linear relationship between pretreatment severity and the probability of observing a significant drug-placebo difference. The well-replicated observation that milder depressions are more placebo-responsive is not mentioned. Nor is the futility of placebo treatment of psychotic depression."
Psychologists shouldnt even be allowed to write articles on antidepressant placebo effects. Most psychologists are all biased individuals who would rather have the most severe depressive in therapy rather than go on meds.
Anyway here is the article:
http://www.mhsource.com/pt/p020909.html
Eric LOSTBOYinNC
Posted by LostboyinNC2 on October 3, 2002, at 15:50:36
In reply to Re: antidepressants and severe depression, posted by LostboyinNC2 on October 3, 2002, at 15:37:30
What Ive been saying all along. The people who are the least likely to get a so called "placebo response" from antidepressants are those who should be included in drug trials the most. Not these mildly depressed people who have "woody allen" depression.
http://www.mhsource.com/pt/p020909.html
"These studies, by and large, do not enroll patients with the subforms of depression that respond more favorably to antidepressants and are plagued by "inflation" of entry symptom severity thresholds (Klein et al., 2002). The problems persist largely because the standard methods still work well enough to accomplish the studies' primary aim of the sponsors: to obtain FDA approval of their medications (Thase, 2002b"
Again, all it takes to get FDA approval for a new antidepressant is to cause a HAMD score improvement of 50%. Just a "response" not a remission. Furthermore, people with severe depressions are not included in new drug trials often enough, much less those who have psychotic depression. The goal is just to get FDA drug approval and get all the woody allen dysthymia people on SSRIs so the drug companies make a shitload of money. You would make more money selling 10 million SSRI prescriptions a year to those with dysthymia than you would selling 500,000 prescriptions a year to those with REAL DEAL clinical depression, who cant sleep, eat, think clearly and their bodies are falling apart and they cant work.Give me a break its a joke. Psychiatry needs to be overhauled.
Eric LOSTBOYinNC
Posted by JLM on October 3, 2002, at 18:08:05
In reply to Re: antidepressants and severe depression, posted by LostboyinNC2 on October 3, 2002, at 15:37:30
> I found this article which states the exact same thing Ive been saying all along. That the people who need a QUALITY antidepressant the most are the ones least included in antidepressant drug clinical trials. That is, those with severe forms of depression (biological depressions, endogenous depressions, etc.) The people recruited into these new antidepressant drug trials the most are those with dysthymia and moderate depression. Thus, this is the main reason we keep hearing about this "placebo effect" crap. Im so sick and tired of hearing about the placebo effect. I suppose all those SSRI drug side effects like weight gain, delayed orgasm, dry mouth, etc. are "placebo effect" also, huh?
>
> To quote directly from this article, "
>
> "The greater relative benefit of antidepressant therapy among more severely depressed patients (e.g., Elkin et al., 2002, or Thase et al., 1997a) is offhandedly rejected as an artifact or "regression to the mean." Most recently, Khan and colleagues (2002) reported a steady linear relationship between pretreatment severity and the probability of observing a significant drug-placebo difference. The well-replicated observation that milder depressions are more placebo-responsive is not mentioned. Nor is the futility of placebo treatment of psychotic depression."
>
> Psychologists shouldnt even be allowed to write articles on antidepressant placebo effects. Most psychologists are all biased individuals who would rather have the most severe depressive in therapy rather than go on meds.
>
> Anyway here is the article:
>
> http://www.mhsource.com/pt/p020909.html
>
>
> Eric LOSTBOYinNC
>
>
>
>Most psychologists are biased people? What's your basis for saying that?
What about the bias of the people who conduct clinical trials for multi mega million dollar drugs companies? No possibility of bias there, do ya think? God forbid anyone would impune
their character.Not to say that AD's or mood stabilizers don't help people, but the dogma of biopsychiatry that
all mood disorders are caused by organic brain
diseases is a long long long long way from being
an established 'fact'. Neurologists treat organic brain problems, not pdocs. Observable, measureable, repeateatable, and objective.When we don't even have a working model of a 'normal' human brain, its just hubris at this
point to say that people have a 'chemical imbalance'. Its also stigmatizing to the patient.
Of course psychosurgery and insulin shock were
pretty stigmatizing too ;)
Posted by Dinah on October 3, 2002, at 18:09:38
In reply to Re: stupid people...Arthur whats his name, posted by LostboyinNC2 on October 3, 2002, at 15:26:35
> I read Arthur Gibson's posts and the first thing that comes to mind is "this guy doesnt have a clue." The guy is a total idiot.
>Take a hike...please.
Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
Sorry, Eric, but you have received previous requests to be civil and not post things that others can take as an accusation or a put down, so I'm going to block you now.
If you wish Dr. Bob to review this decision, his email address is at the bottom of the page.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 3, 2002, at 19:34:13
In reply to Re: Blocked for a week » LostboyinNC2, posted by Dinah on October 3, 2002, at 18:09:38
> Sorry, Eric, but you have received previous requests to be civil...
He was blocked for 4 weeks last time, so I made it 8 weeks this time.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Denise528 on October 4, 2002, at 11:48:53
In reply to Re: Another quote from the article, posted by LostboyinNC2 on October 3, 2002, at 15:50:36
Eric,
Everything you have said I agree with wholeheartedly, I just wish I could have said it so well myself.
Denise
Posted by Golf4 on October 8, 2002, at 12:25:02
In reply to Concerns about the 'root cause' approach, posted by shar on September 30, 2002, at 21:09:32
Hi,
1-unfortunately,this MALADY(and it isn't just a DISSORDER)is still far from being 100% and mainly promptly healed ,BUT
most of us,suffering since a couple of years if not even more,already are aware that this is an ILLNESS like any other known
and accepted by the society...) due to be treated FIRST OF ALL and eventually ONLY,by the available meds on the market
2-the suggested alternative :PSYCHOTHERAPY,which has been the main treatment just a couple of tens of years ago should help
(if, made by a very skilful therapist)ALWAYS and for ALL of the existing maladies,including the one we are suffering of ;CLINICAL DEPR. and/or BP(1;2) ,but just as an additional help and NOT as the main and/or the solely treatment.
3-in the future,there are good chances that the % success of those treated medically(by meds mainly)will increase even more and will be so evident that the right approach beating this "beast" is by "bombarding"our brains with the right chemical formula and no psychologist will ever sustain that the best way for healing is by their(sometimes long ) psychotherapy ; today,these therapists are still insisting that THEY are right,just because the meds already discovered aren't YET perfect or better said:aren't good enough for all of us
4-I am joing as such those sustaing in the favour of the MEDICAL approach(meds tretament),mainly to encourage those like us still loosing time ONLY on the psychoanalyst's couch ; most of them are doomed for a very tiny relief from this awful suffering
This is the end of the thread.
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