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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 45. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
I am one of the lucky ones.
I developed depression six years ago and did not know what it was. I took six weeks off work, had no treatment, never saw a doctor and made a full recovery. I never realised that I had had depression.
A few months ago it returned with a vengeance and nearly killed me. My doctor diagnosed depression, put me on PROZAC, after much prevarication that I have explained elsewhere on this board, (“How the British National Health treat depression”) and I recovered within about seven weeks.
Now I am as fit as a fiddle, still on PROZAC but hanging round this board to give support here and there. I think that its important for the lucky ones to stay behind and try to help the “drug resistant ones” who seem to compose most of the contributors to this board.
So why am I lucky and others not so? I have a theory.
When I became seriously depressed a few months a ago I had a serious personal, psychological problem. I am too ashamed to tell you what it was, so you will never know what I mean. I did not even know that I had the problem. I only found it after I read a book that contained the theory that you only recover from depression when you find, face and tackle the root cause of the problem, regardless of what drugs you take.
I was about three weeks into the PROZAC at this time and the drug did assist me to analyse my life and my subconscious problems and eventually I came across the cause of my depression. Again, I repeat, I cannot tell you what it was because I feel a fool about it. But it does not matter, because your problems are not mine, so your problem will be different and have nothing to do with mine.
Once I found the problem and faced and solved it, which I did, even though the process was very painful, I made a swift recovery from my depression.
Mr Sad Puppy Dog says of me: “Its obvious you never had severe depression before. I find your posts inflammatory to those with severe mental illness.” In a way he is right. I only suffered from severe depression for a few months and made a “lucky” recovery. (Although who knows what terror the future holds for me.) Nevertheless the question remains, why did I recover and people like Mr SPD and many others are still going through hell after many years of illness?
Mr SPD, who is one of the smartest people on this board, thinks that exercise and a constant searching for the right drug therapy is the solution to aim for. He may be right. However I suspect that all the drugs in the world are not going to assist unless we face up to the demons inside us.
I found a dark devil deep within my thinking that needed to be expelled. It was an erroneous bit of my thinking that was undermining my whole concious thought. Once I realised the problem and took steps to correct the thinking and deal with the results in the wider real world (my business and family for example) there was no reason for my depression and it lifted.
Now I agree with Mr SPD that the drug (and exercise) (and fish oil) (he does not agree with the latter) was vital to this recovery. Without PROZAC I would not have had the strength to deal with my inner problem. But what I am further saying is that I believe that if I had not faced and dealt with my problem, I would still be in the depths of suicidal depression now.
So so far as I am cobcerned it’s a question of “what’s your problem?” What is the root cause of Jeff’s and Mr SPD’S and maybe your depression?
OK Jeff can think of lots of reasons why he is down, no money, no lovers etc. But that is not what I am asking. I am asking what is the ROOT cause of all this misery in your lives?
Finding the ROOT cause may be difficult, if not impossible. But the mission to seek it out and correct it may be vital to your recovery.
I very much doubt that it will be a physical cause. Lost lover or job or whatever. This may have apparantly caused your depression, but more likely it will be the way your subconcious mind handled the problem that caused the depression to grow.
Depression can grow unnoticed for years before it breaks through into the concious mind and the seven pound weight of depression becomes implanted in our brains. A bit of dysfunctional thinking will be the seed from which all this trouble grows. Dig back to find that seed and destroy it in your thinking and maybe you will find that your “drug resistant” depression will melt away like snow in the sun?
My best wishes and love to you all.
Arthur
Posted by Phil on September 29, 2002, at 8:48:46
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
I definately agree about rooting out your demons but, for me, I'll still be on meds as far as I can see. Even after years and years of talking it out.
That doesn't mean I won't go back into therapy because the coping skills are valuable but sometimes forgettable. I need to be reminded.
Posted by Marathon Man on September 29, 2002, at 9:41:13
In reply to Re: Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Phil on September 29, 2002, at 8:48:46
My opinion is on the other side. The proper medication is what I need. The way I see it, therapy is just mental masturbation. If we forget history we are doomed to repeat it. Go back 50 or 100 years for example. There were practically no meds available, just alot of talk therapy B.S.,lobotomy maybe. Just because the appropriate medication is not here for me now or I have'nt found it, does'nt mean I should give up the quest.
I will find proper treatment some day.
Posted by JaneB on September 29, 2002, at 11:01:14
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
Arthur,
I want to find the root cause. Pdocs do not help in this area. Help please.
JaneB
Posted by linkadge on September 29, 2002, at 11:50:35
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
From a religious standpoint, yes in order
to make a proper recovery one must confront
and release all hatred towards people
that you have had. From a biblical standpoint
love is the master emotion, hate will never
beat anybody but yourself.
In other words If you're a assasin and
are becoming depressed because of what you're
doing then you need to change your lifestyle.THe problem is that, if you need to take a psychiatric drug to confront the source of
the problem, then that means, after you discover
it you can quit the drug right? Wrong.Depression does not listen to logic of any kind.
For instance, an AIDs patient does not get better
after learning their immune system is under attack.The problem is that there are hundreds of brain chemicals, and just as one responds better to the Norepinephrine side of things, so will somebody else to some yet undescovered chemical.
I fell into the trap of the excorcist mentality too. After two weeks on my first trial of Celexa, I thought God had healed me (an in a way he had),
stopped the meds abruptly and relapsed back deeper than before.I believe the meds help you get a better sence of what normal is. If hate and bitterness can respond to a drug then certainly that hate cannot be demonic.
The reason antidepressants work is that they enable you to do the things that make you feel
good about yourself.
With me, I feel more like helping others, donating to charity, and excercising, all the
things that naturally make me feel better about myself. People ask, is it you? or is it the drug?
Well it's both.
- I knew I was getting better when I started
to want to fix all the things I had broken.
(relationships, health, attitude etc)So in responce, I do think that people need
to set things straight in there life, but by
no means are these things the source of their
depression. So if somebody is a assasin, then they're probably chemically imballenced in
the first place. You help there brain, then
you might just help them too.Some people think they can use these drugs to squelch out the need for god, religion etc.
But I beleive any mentally healthy person
knows a god exists. I beleive the mentally
unhealthy know he exists even more. Without
pain we have no compassion.Linkadge
Posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 13:28:29
In reply to Re: Finding ROOT cause... » Arthur Gibson, posted by JaneB on September 29, 2002, at 11:01:14
This reply is for Jane B, and others who may be interested.
Retire to your "safe place."
Let your depression come upon you and weigh you down. Feel the depths of despair, the horror of your worst feelings. Don't think about anything special, just get the FEELING of your depression, don't look for the cause.
Close your eyes.
Now imagine youself in an empty theatre. (Cinema in the UK). The screen is blank but a short film is about to start. Continue to FEEL your depression and watch as the film starts. You will see a visual representaion of what is the ROOT cause of your depression.
You may not be able to make sense of what you see. Just like a dream can be difficult to interpret or understand. So repeat the experiment later and the film will change slightly, or even substantially to help you understand what is the ROOT cause of what you are feeling.
You may get the message first time, or it may take several attempts before the penny drops and you realise what is the ROOT cause of your depression. It will be a piece of dysfunctional thinking. It will be linked to events, like the loss of a loved one or whatever, but it will be the faulty THINKING that is the ROOT problem, not the event.
Depression is caused when one part of the brain fights against another and the two parts do not agree. Each part is convinced that the other is wrong and you have to figure out which is wrong and which is right. Maybe both are wrong.
The you have to fix the problem. This can be very difficult. Often it involves altering circumstances. Changing employment or dropping a lover or whatever. But the change in your dysfunctional THINKING is the thing that will cause the effort to change the situation. In other words, sort out the problem. The faulty thinking will have caused a problem or problems in the real world and these problems have to be fixed, as well as the ROOT thinking problem.
OK, I will tell you my ROOT problem.
My business was going bust and my brain just WOULD NOT accept that this was happening. It seems crazy but this was what was happening. Once I found the ROOT of my problems I decided to let go of my business and start a smaller business that would keep my family fed and housed. Oddly enough, the letting go of my first business freed my mind from the conflict and the depression rapidly lifted. I was then able to rescue my first business and now I have two businesses.
But please understand, it was not my first business going bust that caused my depression. My family and doctor and even I thought that that was the cause, but we were wrong. It was the fact that my brain WOULD NOT ACCEPT that the business was finished that was the ROOT cause of my depression.
Your root cause will be completely different.
My friend divorced her husband and then went into depression. She thought that the divorce had caused her depression, but she was wrong. After trying my method she found that it was the fact that her brain WOULD NOT accept that she had made a MISTAKE in divorcing a perfectly good guy that caused her depression.
Do you see the difference? It was a bit of dysfunctional thinking, not the divorce itself.
Once she accepted that she had made a mistake, her depression started to lift because the conflict in her brain had been resolved.
Another friend lost her job and went into depression. She knew it was the loss of the job that started her depression, but this was NOT the CAUSE. Analysed by my method the ROOT CAUSE turned out to be the fact that her brain WOULD NOT accept the fact that she was dependent on her husband's income. It was a different CAUSE to the obvious one, but once she accepted and reconciled herself to being reliant on her husband, the depression lifted.
I accept that my method will only work for some people. I accept that drugs are great when they work and they did help strengthen me to sort out my problems. But if what I have to offer helps just a few of the people who are struggling with depression, then that is good.
Posted by linkadge on September 29, 2002, at 16:05:48
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
People always tend to put depression in
terms of their specific life events.I honestly believe that depression can
be completely chemical.The problem is that EVERYONE experiences
depression to a certain degree. And because
most people don't stay there for long,
they think they have found the key to
everyone's depression. This is not the case.People can be *very* chemically imballenced
by cause of no external events. My great
grandmother would sit in a chair facing the
wall, for 10 months of the year for the duration
of her depressions. Some peoples depression
intereferes with their life, and other people's
consumes every aspect of it.All I ask is that people offer suggestions
on this site, and never rationalize the
suffering of another, in terms of your own.Linkadge
Posted by oracle on September 29, 2002, at 16:46:30
In reply to How to find the ROOT CAUSE, posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 13:28:29
The root cause for my depression and LD was being born. I was born with an LD and the depression followed, 20 years after my birth. So, to use your excercise, my only choice is to not be born !
Posted by JaneB on September 29, 2002, at 17:00:52
In reply to How to find the ROOT CAUSE, posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 13:28:29
Arthur,
Is this like EMDR?JaneB
Posted by Geezer on September 29, 2002, at 17:32:29
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
Hi Arthur,
I respectfully and TOTALLY disagree.
"What's my real problem"? Genetically transferred, Biochemical, Physiologic, Brian Disorder, Unipolar Major Depression, Melancholic, and Chronic. In my case there is no psycho-social component. Yes, I have been the "talk therapy" route. I wouldn't go to a chiropractor for heart surgery.....why would I waste anymore time with psychological introspection?
All this aside - I am very happy you have found relief.
Best regards,
Posted by calaway on September 29, 2002, at 18:47:02
In reply to Depression can be completely chemical, posted by linkadge on September 29, 2002, at 16:05:48
Yes I agree that depression can and is in many cases completely chemical.
In my family (depression is also heretitary!) My grandmother went through many bouts of shock therapy, I was diagnosed 8 years ago, and finally my mother was just diagnosed 6 months ago. However there are many members of my family who are not depressed and may never be.
Here's what I believe. Depression IS a chemical imbalance that everyone experiences. Depression can be as simple as rainy day blues or a dificult as manic depression. The difference is how our individual body deals with or recovers from it. Some of our bodies are able to produce enough "chmicals" to bounce back, others bodies or brains(to be specific) just are not able to produce the chemical to function as "normal".
Here's my story. Just like Arthur my Families business was failing and my father and I had to try to save it. We eventually sold it and in the deal saved our jobs. So in merging for 6 months I work 16 hour days 5 days a week and 8 hours on the weekend. I knew I was getting too stressed and told my fiance I really needed a week off, but we were getting married a month later and I had arranged 3 weeks off for the wedding and honeymoon. To make the story shorter, the wedding was beautiful and over, My brain crashed. Our two week honeymoon lasted 4 days, I flew home sick. After 3 weeks of drs. test I finally woke up having a nervous break down.
What happened with me was that for 6 months my body over producing enough "chemical" to compensate the mental stress I was under. Once I went on my honeymoon and was able to relax My brain not only stopped producing a higher amount of the "chemical", but was no longer able to produce enough to function "normally". The anti-depressant help the brain produce the additional amount required to function normally. In many cases after 9 months of help the brain is able to take back over and many people are able to come off the anti-depressants. Or in my case my brain is no longer able to produce enough to remain normal and therefore I will forever be on anti-depressants. I had the guilt why am I so mentally weak, what's wrong with me, ect... But what I have realized this is a disese and the human body as a whole can have weak areas which can "break" (for lack of a better word) and need help to function. When ever I speak to someone who just started on anti-depressants and are going through the guilt, I also refer to my diabetes story. In many people the pancres can not produce any or enough insullin for the body to function properly. Therefore they rely on insullin shots to survive!. Some people are born this was, some develope in their 20's, 30's, 40's ect. Both are cases where our bodies are dependant on a chemical to function normally. I also tell them to be thankful our savior doesn't come in a needle.
Posted by mist on September 29, 2002, at 21:06:16
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
Arthur,
Your method sounds interesting and I believe it could work for some people. Depression has a chemical component but psychological/cognitive factors can be significant in depression as well. I'm glad you found something that helped you. Thanks for sharing it.
-mist
Posted by McPac on September 29, 2002, at 21:54:31
In reply to Depression can be completely chemical, posted by linkadge on September 29, 2002, at 16:05:48
linkadge, superbly stated and VERY true!
Posted by shar on September 29, 2002, at 23:40:15
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
The idea that there is a root cause for one's depression, that once identified and eliminated results in full remission, is very appealing. I believed it for a long time. But, I don't believe it anymore.
I think serious depression is much more complicated than that.
Shar
Posted by Arthur Gibson on September 30, 2002, at 2:02:48
In reply to Re: Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others... » Arthur Gibson, posted by shar on September 29, 2002, at 23:40:15
Of course depression has a chemical cause. I agree.
But I am saying that finding the ROOT psychological cause can be beneficial in assisting the recovery of many people.
Doubtless finding the ROOT cause makes the chemicals sorts themselves out quicker and admittedly this may not work for many, but it seems to help some people, so give it a go.
Depression runs in my family, so it must also be inherited, but nevertheless, I think that facing the ROOT causes will help.
Posted by colin wallace on September 30, 2002, at 4:29:11
In reply to I agree with my critics, posted by Arthur Gibson on September 30, 2002, at 2:02:48
After 20 years or so of living in a parallel universe created by depression, and 3 years of suicidiality, I spent a lot of time searching for and attempting to unravel any deep-seated or even subtle psychological causes.
Concluding that this must be a psychological issue, I tried every means to force myself back to a properly functioning level- and still failed.
The simple addition of a neurological drug brought me back to life and the threw everything into clear perspective.
There was no pyschological component- only that created by an underlying, neurological malfunction.
I don't say this to exonerate myself so that I can feel better about it- it is a glaringly obvious fact for me and many others.
Posted by bonnie_ann on September 30, 2002, at 5:37:50
In reply to Depression is completely chemical READ!., posted by calaway on September 29, 2002, at 18:47:02
I am discouraged by the fact that I am no longer able to produce enough chemicals to be normal and need to be on medication forever. This is were the medical community has failed us and society is so ignorant to think that we are to blame. In this day and age we should be more evolved in this field. I'm appaled that the drug companies are genuinely in it for the money and not to give us a better quality of life.
Bonnie
Posted by oracle on September 30, 2002, at 14:31:11
In reply to I agree with my critics, posted by Arthur Gibson on September 30, 2002, at 2:02:48
We are saying that for some, the root cause is chemical. Just like many illnesses.
Posted by oracle on September 30, 2002, at 14:34:30
In reply to Re: Depression is completely chemical READ!., posted by bonnie_ann on September 30, 2002, at 5:37:50
I'm appaled that the drug companies are genuinely in it for the money and not to give us a better quality of life.
> Bonnie
>Then how do you suggest a drug company pay for research and development of new drugs ?
Posted by shar on September 30, 2002, at 21:09:32
In reply to I agree with my critics, posted by Arthur Gibson on September 30, 2002, at 2:02:48
The argument that finding the root psychological cause is necessary in order to recover from depression is used by many people (including medical professionals) to "blame the victim." In other words, if someone isn't getting better or doesn't make a full recovery it is their fault because they haven't done the work needed to find the root cause. And even if they're working hard in therapy, if they were working hard Enough, they'd be in full remission. I am pro-therapy, myself, and agree it can be very helpful in resolving depression, especially where depression occurs after a stressful life event, or is not very severe.
And I also know for many, many people depression is just chemical. It can hit people out of the blue, with no precipitating event and no deep childhood trauma, AND resolve with the use of meds, so that eventually meds can be eliminated. And then, years later, it can hit again, be just as severe, and be resolved again with meds. That is biology.
Shar
> Of course depression has a chemical cause. I agree.
>
> But I am saying that finding the ROOT psychological cause can be beneficial in assisting the recovery of many people.
>
> Doubtless finding the ROOT cause makes the chemicals sorts themselves out quicker and admittedly this may not work for many, but it seems to help some people, so give it a go.
>
> Depression runs in my family, so it must also be inherited, but nevertheless, I think that facing the ROOT causes will help.
>
Posted by Geezer on September 30, 2002, at 21:25:47
In reply to Concerns about the 'root cause' approach, posted by shar on September 30, 2002, at 21:09:32
I think you nailed it Char!
Posted by AlphaOne on October 1, 2002, at 0:06:04
In reply to Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by Arthur Gibson on September 29, 2002, at 6:33:15
I know of a guy who developed all a phobia that he was going to have a heart attack.
At the root of it lies that he is gay.
He won`t admit it to himself though.
Is your problem something into this direction?
Or childhood sexual abuse?
Posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:28:39
In reply to Re: Why ADs don’t work on Sad Puppy Dog and others..., posted by AlphaOne on October 1, 2002, at 0:06:04
Excuse me, I'm trying to help the people who may respond to therapy.
We know that many people with even severe depression can recover with therapy alone, so you drug junkies can just pipe down.
I recovered with a combination of drug and therapy. I love E Lilly and Co so much that I am tempted to buy shares.
Nevertheless the fact remains that where drugs are not working, it may be wise to look for a root cause and not keep popping pils.
To hope that pills alone will cure, when there may be a bit of dysfunctional thinking that needs correcting, is to face a lifetime of misery.
Posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:58:05
My discussion on why ADs don't work in some people is progressing to the top of the board and will soon be archived. So I am starting it up again here. I have found a useful quote at: http://www.financialsense.com/metals/sinclair/editorials/092602.htm
The article is about the economy, but it neatly sumarises what I think about depression therapy and drug treatment.
"A downward spiral in markets is not much different from a downward spiral in the human experience. In that sense, a downward spiral, such as depression, requires intervention in order to reverse it. Psychotropic drugs, as an intervention, are often prescribed in order to provide an intervened window that can prevent the depression down spiral from going to its predictable end. Should the patient grasp that opportunity provided by the intervention, taking a more positive look at their circumstance, real progress may occur in their lives."
That is what I am saying. Drugs alone are not enough. We need to grasp the window of oportunity that the drugs offer, or we will waste the effect.
Posted by turalizz on October 1, 2002, at 5:01:26
In reply to Depression in the economy and in people, posted by Arthur Gibson on October 1, 2002, at 3:58:05
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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