![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by oracle on July 18, 2002, at 16:36:37
In reply to I hear what you say, posted by rjk on July 18, 2002, at 12:21:08
> I agree with what you are saying, but the joker who prescribed me that combo had only seen me once. I was no where near either suicide or treatment resistant and he knew that I had previously had good results with Remeron on its own, but it had brought me out in a rash.
All I am saying is that psychs should be a bit more responsible when it comes to prescribing combos of drugs and when they do, it should be closely monitored. I do not believe that telling someone to increase the dose by post is a very responsible attitude to a comination of drugs without clinical trials.But how ? On the HMO system they do not have much time to give to patients.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 19, 2002, at 9:48:03
In reply to P.S. maybe move this to PSB? (nm) » judy1, posted by judy1 on July 18, 2002, at 10:17:12
> maybe move this to PSB?
That's a good idea, how about if the legal issues, etc., are redirected there:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020714/msgs/26689.html
but the medication issues stay here? Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by joy on July 19, 2002, at 10:32:26
In reply to Re: I hear what you say, posted by Wilkie on July 19, 2002, at 9:59:17
If the med combo did not work, and made you worse, that is something in your particular system. This combo works for many people. I think we have to be realistic. You're just making the lawyers rich! I do hope you are okay though, and I'm sorry it happened, but getting on with your life and getting better would be a more positive goal.
Joy
Posted by rjk on July 19, 2002, at 17:09:58
In reply to Re: I hear what you say, posted by joy on July 19, 2002, at 10:32:26
> If the med combo did not work, and made you worse, that is something in your particular system. This combo works for many people. I think we have to be realistic. You're just making the lawyers rich! I do hope you are okay though, and I'm sorry it happened, but getting on with your life and getting better would be a more positive goal.
> Joy
Thanks for your message. I am trying to get on with my life, but as I can't take any meds at all now, things are not that easy.
Posted by McPac on July 21, 2002, at 20:35:50
In reply to I'll tell you what happened, posted by rjk on July 18, 2002, at 12:11:39
> > Why? What happened?
> I was advised to take a combination of ADs (remeron + effexor) that has done me a great deal of harm. I was diagnosed as "treatment resistant", which I wasn't and when I told the psych who advised me to take them that I was having problems, he wrote to me and told me to increase the dose. There are other issues as well, but that idiot has wrecked my life.>>>>>>>Why not just shoot him instead?
Posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 11:34:38
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by McPac on July 21, 2002, at 20:35:50
Posted by Dave1 on July 22, 2002, at 14:53:25
In reply to Anyone ever tried to sue a psychiatrist?, posted by rjk on July 18, 2002, at 3:29:37
When I was 18, about 20 years ago, my doctor gave my a high dose of stelyzine (check spelling) which is an antipsychotic which put me in the ER because my all my muscles cramped up.
It was a very physically painful experience.The doctor kept sending me bills for visits totally 1000$. I never paid - ha ha. Not a lawsuit, but some vindication. I think its very necessary for these malpractice lawyers to be aggressive, otherwise there would be alot more malpractice by physicians than there is currently.
Dave
Posted by McPac on July 22, 2002, at 16:25:37
In reply to Re: Anyone ever tried to sue a psychiatrist?, posted by Dave1 on July 22, 2002, at 14:53:25
Dave, you should have shot him too.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2002, at 8:01:37
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by McPac on July 21, 2002, at 20:35:50
> Why not just shoot him instead?
Could you please rephrase that, taking into account the civility guidelines here?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by McPac on July 23, 2002, at 18:56:58
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » McPac, posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2002, at 8:01:37
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Dave1 on July 23, 2002, at 20:41:06
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by McPac on July 23, 2002, at 18:56:58
McPac
There was some further indirect vindication.
The guy was disbarred, publicly, for awhile for having sex with a patient in his office. Wonder how his wife liked that!!!
Dave
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2002, at 23:39:38
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by McPac on July 23, 2002, at 18:56:58
> ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I take civility seriously, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 18:46:23
In reply to I'll tell you what happened, posted by rjk on July 18, 2002, at 12:11:39
> > Why? What happened?
> I was advised to take a combination of ADs (remeron + effexor) that has done me a great deal of harm. I was diagnosed as "treatment resistant", which I wasn't and when I told the psych who advised me to take them that I was having problems, he wrote to me and told me to increase the dose. There are other issues as well, but that idiot has wrecked my life.
>
>Perfect example of what I said earlier - NO ONE KNOWS ENOUGH ABOUT THESE DRUGS TO BE CONSTANTLY PRESCRIBING THEM TO US ALL!!! All they know is: in some cases, they work. Why? Will we ever know? Not until more thorough research is done!
Ok, ok, you are going to say that if someone is about to commit suicide and the drugs save them...well, then they're ok. But why are we all prescribed drugs like candy, given out samples at physician's offices, not helped into dealing with our problems through therapy? WE ARE THE GUINEA PIGS OF THE NEW PSYCHO DRUG GENERATION!!!
I'm not sure if you should sue your psych personally, just because if you are having depression, etc. already, don't rock the boat with a lawsuit per others' advice. Also, yes, suing has become commonplace in our society. Still - someone should be held accountable for the fact that we are being fed drugs whose effects no one is very sure of - especially in the long term - and I say fed, because when you go into the doctor's office they will seriously hand them out to you...
Stepping off my soap box now...
Mireille
Posted by cybercafe on July 24, 2002, at 20:02:15
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 18:46:23
> Perfect example of what I said earlier - NO ONE KNOWS ENOUGH ABOUT THESE DRUGS TO BE CONSTANTLY PRESCRIBING THEM TO US ALL!!! All they know is: in some cases, they work. Why? Will we ever know? Not until more thorough research is done!
.... okay.. but what are you suggesting? ... no one disagrees that things aren't perfect... but how do we make them better?
> Ok, ok, you are going to say that if someone is about to commit suicide and the drugs save them...well, then they're ok. But why are we all prescribed drugs like candy, given out samples at physician's offices, not helped into dealing with our problems through therapy? WE ARE THE GUINEA PIGS OF THE NEW PSYCHO DRUG GENERATION!!!hmmm... well why do you leave your house? or drive? driving is so very very dangerous... really...
>Still - someone should be held accountable for the fact that we are being fed drugs whose effects no one is very sure of - especially in the long term - and I say fed, because when you go into the doctor's office they will seriously hand them out to you...for those of us who can barely afford to buy drugs, free samples are greatly appreciated
Posted by rjk on July 25, 2002, at 0:19:41
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by Mireille on July 24, 2002, at 18:46:23
> > > Why? What happened?
> > I was advised to take a combination of ADs (remeron + effexor) that has done me a great deal of harm. I was diagnosed as "treatment resistant", which I wasn't and when I told the psych who advised me to take them that I was having problems, he wrote to me and told me to increase the dose. There are other issues as well, but that idiot has wrecked my life.
> >
> >
>
> Perfect example of what I said earlier - NO ONE KNOWS ENOUGH ABOUT THESE DRUGS TO BE CONSTANTLY PRESCRIBING THEM TO US ALL!!! All they know is: in some cases, they work. Why? Will we ever know? Not until more thorough research is done!
>
> Ok, ok, you are going to say that if someone is about to commit suicide and the drugs save them...well, then they're ok. But why are we all prescribed drugs like candy, given out samples at physician's offices, not helped into dealing with our problems through therapy? WE ARE THE GUINEA PIGS OF THE NEW PSYCHO DRUG GENERATION!!!
>
> I'm not sure if you should sue your psych personally, just because if you are having depression, etc. already, don't rock the boat with a lawsuit per others' advice. Also, yes, suing has become commonplace in our society. Still - someone should be held accountable for the fact that we are being fed drugs whose effects no one is very sure of - especially in the long term - and I say fed, because when you go into the doctor's office they will seriously hand them out to you...
>
> Stepping off my soap box now...
>
> Mireille
>
Thanks for your comments. What also really annoys me is the fact that since taking that combo I was prescribed 10 different meds before doctors realised that there might be a problem.Richard
Posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 12:21:53
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by cybercafe on July 24, 2002, at 20:02:15
> > Perfect example of what I said earlier - NO ONE KNOWS ENOUGH ABOUT THESE DRUGS TO BE CONSTANTLY PRESCRIBING THEM TO US ALL!!! All they know is: in some cases, they work. Why? Will we ever know? Not until more thorough research is done!
>
> .... okay.. but what are you suggesting? ... no one disagrees that things aren't perfect... but how do we make them better?Wow, didn't realize I'd start something with all of this...:) Ok, maybe a little...
I suggest we quit accepting drugs whose effects we're not sure of...unless we really need them! Doctors are eager to hand them out in sample form, and I know, when you're depressed you're willing to try anything...I think the drugs are getting better now but we are leaving our lives in the hands of people who aren't testing them enough before putting them on market. And you can't tell me it isn't because they see a huge market for the drugs!
Still, you are right - there isn't much that someone who is very depressed can do about it. I mean, I'm jsut getting very very angry about these horrible withdrawal symptoms and about the fact that none of the doctors I've tried can tell me if they're normal or not, and what effects all of this could have on me in the future! I'm seriously afraid it has permanently altered my personality in some way!
> > Ok, ok, you are going to say that if someone is about to commit suicide and the drugs save them...well, then they're ok. But why are we all prescribed drugs like candy, given out samples at physician's offices, not helped into dealing with our problems through therapy? WE ARE THE GUINEA PIGS OF THE NEW PSYCHO DRUG GENERATION!!!
>
> hmmm... well why do you leave your house? or drive? driving is so very very dangerous... really...
>Very different. You have a lot more control, although yes it's always true you could die...but should a smoker say that? Why quit - I could get hit by a car? Yes, but that would be HAPPENSTANCE versus you ACTIVELY doing something that you know could harm yourself!
> >Still - someone should be held accountable for the fact that we are being fed drugs whose effects no one is very sure of - especially in the long term - and I say fed, because when you go into the doctor's office they will seriously hand them out to you...
> for those of us who can barely afford to buy
Yes, I know - I'm a starving grad student right now! But should I take dope just because it's given to me? I mean, if you're already on it and doing fine - great - I'm not questioning that. My Doc gave me free samples when I couldn't afford them. I'm not questioning that! I'm questioning the fact that you go into a doctor and say you think you have depression, they ask you three questions and hand you a sample of drugs (whichever drug is a la mode that week - or whichever one they have the most samples of).
Like I said, I'm poor right now, but the poor shouldn't be prey to rich drug companies who want to use them as guinea pigs or get them addicted to new drugs, either! "Here, take it, it's free...try it and see how you feel...sorry, we aren't sure of all the side effects but it will probably make you feel better..."
NO thanks!
Posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 17:24:57
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened » Mireille, posted by rjk on July 25, 2002, at 0:19:41
> > > > Why? What happened?
> > > I was advised to take a combination of ADs (remeron + effexor) that has done me a great deal of harm. I was diagnosed as "treatment resistant", which I wasn't and when I told the psych who advised me to take them that I was having problems, he wrote to me and told me to increase the dose. There are other issues as well, but that idiot has wrecked my life.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Perfect example of what I said earlier - NO ONE KNOWS ENOUGH ABOUT THESE DRUGS TO BE CONSTANTLY PRESCRIBING THEM TO US ALL!!! All they know is: in some cases, they work. Why? Will we ever know? Not until more thorough research is done!
> >
> > Ok, ok, you are going to say that if someone is about to commit suicide and the drugs save them...well, then they're ok. But why are we all prescribed drugs like candy, given out samples at physician's offices, not helped into dealing with our problems through therapy? WE ARE THE GUINEA PIGS OF THE NEW PSYCHO DRUG GENERATION!!!
> >
> > I'm not sure if you should sue your psych personally, just because if you are having depression, etc. already, don't rock the boat with a lawsuit per others' advice. Also, yes, suing has become commonplace in our society. Still - someone should be held accountable for the fact that we are being fed drugs whose effects no one is very sure of - especially in the long term - and I say fed, because when you go into the doctor's office they will seriously hand them out to you...
> >
> > Stepping off my soap box now...
> >
> > Mireille
> >
> Thanks for your comments. What also really annoys me is the fact that since taking that combo I was prescribed 10 different meds before doctors realised that there might be a problem.
>
> Richard
>Wow Richard, thanks for your comments too. I seem to have annoyed quite a few people, but I knew there must be even more out there who had been put on the wrong meds, had meds thrown at them as a solution, etc. One of my dear friends had the same experience as you - she was put on antidepressants of various sorts for 6 years before they took her off altogether and realized that what she had was lupus! I mean, I feel for the doctors on one hand because they are always overburdened, but does anyone out there know what they are doing?
(Poor Dr. Bob is probably dying to say a thing or two...? :)
Mireille
Posted by cybercafe on July 26, 2002, at 11:21:07
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 12:21:53
> Wow, didn't realize I'd start something with all of this...:) Ok, maybe a little...
... i think we are all anxious to see improvements in the mental health system ....
wouldn't that be great :)
> I suggest we quit accepting drugs whose effects we're not sure of...unless we really need them!i don't think there are any drugs whose effects we are sure of ....
i totally agree with you that i wouldn't want to start playing around with my brain chemicals unless i really needed to ...
but as to your specific case, of course, i can't comment as i wasn't there>Doctors are eager to hand them out in sample form, and I know, when you're depressed you're willing to try anything...I think the drugs are
... yeah... i think when you're depressed it's probably worth the risk of taking a medication... unless it's situational depression...
>getting better now but we are leaving our lives in the hands of people who aren't testing them enough before putting them on market. And you can't tell me it isn't because they see a huge market for the drugs!
i totally agree with you, it's all about money....
and if there was a company out there who wasn't all about money, they would lose market share and go bankrupt from competition (in other words, evolution is about selfishness, not kindness)
now if you required people to do more testing and spend more money on studies then there would be less profit and less motivation for companies to develop new drugs...
... i know it's a really bad thing, ... but i'm not sure you can legislate companies to behave any better...my area of concern is that the gov't spends so little on mental health ... i believe there is much room for improvement here
> Still, you are right - there isn't much that someone who is very depressed can do about it. I... actually i was sincerely interested in what you thought doctors can do to treat depression without some type of risk ...
>mean, I'm jsut getting very very angry about these horrible withdrawal symptoms and about the fact that none of the doctors I've tried can tell me if they're normal or not, and what effects all of this could have on me in the future! I'm seriously afraid it has permanently altered my personality in some way!
... i'm sorry you're having so much trouble... when i was having horrible withdrawal symptoms from effexor (i really just wanted to die), my doc recommended i take effexor and wow... i felt so relieved, ... it was a miracle...
... i know that your personality can permanently be altered.. even for the worst.. but then medication can almost always make it better ... myself i had severe anxiety, .. but after a while i was able to stop taking benzos (for about 7 months now) and a lot has dissappeared... it's really quite hard to believe... i'm always asking myself why i'm not getting these rushes of fear all the time...
... now how could doctors know more about medication? ... there is so much to know.. and the probem is, i think, the system is so swamped with patients and so few doctors (psychiatry applications are down, mental health funding is down, etc etc) that docs are too busy seeing patients to find time to really keep abreast of all of this vast information....
> > hmmm... well why do you leave your house? or drive? driving is so very very dangerous... really...
>
> Very different. You have a lot more control, although yes it's always true you could die...but should a smoker say that? Why quit - I could get... my thoughts on smoking are... i believe, and this is just a belief, that whatever need you have to smoke can be satisfied by less toxic means...
... as for antidepressants, i don't think there are many less dangerous alternatives to relieving depression..... hey therapy would be nice, if you could afford it.... i also think that if i was given a million dollars i would cheer up... or if beautiful women threw themselves at my feet... but i guess this just isn't totally realistic ...
--> but we can always hope :)>hit by a car? Yes, but that would be HAPPENSTANCE versus you ACTIVELY doing something that you know could harm yourself!
... i was under the impression that antidepressants generally have more positive effects than negative.... just like driving...
whereas smoking is pretty much guaranteed to always have negative effects on health...
... but i admitt i am quite clueless as to the actual number of serious long term negative effects of medication ...>afford them. I'm not questioning that! I'm questioning the fact that you go into a doctor and say you think you have depression, they ask you three questions and hand you a sample of drugs (whichever drug is a la mode that week - or whichever one they have the most samples of).
i totally agree with you that medication shouldn't be given out in cases where it's not needed... i suppose though it's hard for a doc to know whether it is needed or not....... in my case i have found docs very slow to jump on the medication bandwagon... i mean if i wanted to get my hands on lamotrigine for example, even though it seems to have very few negative effects and would seem to be very effective, actually finding a doc to perscribe it would be very tough...
.... so i guess the real question is... what do you think your doc should have done instead?
> Like I said, I'm poor right now, but the poor shouldn't be prey to rich drug companies who want to use them as guinea pigs or get them addicted to new drugs, either! "Here, take it, it's free...try it and see how you feel...sorry, we aren't sure of all the side effects but it will probably make you feel better..."
i totally agree ... perhaps drug companies should face tougher fines for not disclosing the negative effects of medication.... "we didn't think it was signifigant that our medication caused healthy volunteers to become suicidal" ...
let us know how you are doing
i wish you well :)
Posted by cybercafe on July 26, 2002, at 11:28:27
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened » Mireille, posted by Mireille on July 25, 2002, at 17:24:57
>knew there must be even more out there who had been put on the wrong meds, had meds thrown at them as a solution, etc. One of my dear friends had the same experience as you - she was put on antidepressants of various sorts for 6 years
yeah i had a doc give me valporate and it just made me depressed but he wouldn't listen to me.... so i eventually just went off it myself ...
effexor was causing me to cycle, ... so i reduced the dose, and then i felt better... the only way that i could do this (doc was too busy to see me or didn't want me to change meds) and maintain a relationship with my doc was to leave a message on his machine (as i know he never calls patients back) saying "i'm going off ____, i'm sure you realize that's a wise idea, otherwise you can feel free to give me a call"....
... having said that, this was done very very slowly and after charting my moods for quite a while ... i definately wouldn't recommend patients take their case into their own hands...
i would instead recommend a consultation with another pdoc....... but in my case i changed docs so i can see that my new doc might have thought that if i went off valporate i would go crazy or something...
yeah the younger docs are always complaining that the older docs don't know what they're doing...
... but i tend to think most cases are much simpler than mine so that's rather comforting...
Posted by cybercafe on July 26, 2002, at 11:31:42
In reply to Experimental combos » Mireille, posted by rjk on July 26, 2002, at 5:47:05
>resistant" is wrong, but I believe that I was wrongly diagnosed and if I am successful, it may make pdocs a little more thoughtful about the way they do dish out drugs like candy.
> I believe that I was being experimented on. If I had been told that and advised that there may be a risk, then I would only have myself to blaim, but I wasn't.... i guess the question is.... what does the current research say about combining, was it remeron with effexor? ...
cuz if current research says it's safe and effective, your doc probably didn't do anything wrong...
if current research says it's dangerous and ineffective, your doc did something wrongi mean it's all about method and standards...
.. did he do what was reasonable for a member of the medical profession to insure that what he was doing was safe, or was he negligent or reckless in his behaviour
Posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:33:17
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened, posted by cybercafe on July 26, 2002, at 11:21:07
>
> ... actually i was sincerely interested in what you thought doctors can do to treat depression without some type of risk ...You raise a very good question. I mean, I think that in all of this ranting I'm just venting (withdrawal-induced?) anger, but really, I've no more any good suggestions than the next person...and I don't go so far as to blame all doctors, as I realize that they have tons of patients and are overworked themselves...it just might be nice if they laid it out for you and said, "look, this drug hasn't been tested in the long term, or on pregnant women, but it's worked for people with depression in the short term..."
Even people with serious depression - I know it's chemical, but I think we all need to learn coping skills...what if we all find out one day that this drug or that one is seriously detramental to our health, and they pull them all off the market...we will have a major crisis on our hands because many of us (myself included) never could afford to do the therapy that is supposed to go along with the anti-depressants, so none of us would know how to cope...that is a very scary thought.
Ok, now I got on a roll - here is what should be done - my friend in France went to a shrink there, and ALL psychotherapy is government-reimbursed, so she got all of her fees reimbursed to her! It ends up being free! Sorry, but I think America should do something like that. You say later on that you think the real problem is that we do not give enough money to mental health research/aid...that is why there are tons of mentally ill people in jail and on the streets raping 5 year old girls and other horrid things...and did you hear, on "60 Minutes" they had a show about a prostitution and drug ring being run in a Mental Health Facility in upstate New York...sorry, but SOCIALIZED medicine, that's my idea. We are the only first-world country outside of SOuth Africa who does not have socialized medicine.
> ... i'm sorry you're having so much trouble... when i was having horrible withdrawal symptoms from effexor (i really just wanted to die), my doc recommended i take effexor and wow... i felt so relieved, ... it was a miracle...
THanks for your thoughts...do you mean your doc switched you to something besides Effexor or told you to go back on it? I may end up staying on 37.5 mg every other day, but I'd rather not be on it at all...withdrawal seems to be getting better...we'll see.
> ... i know that your personality can permanently be altered.. even for the worst.. but then medication can almost always make it better ... myself i had severe anxiety, .. but after a while i was able to stop taking benzos (for about 7 months now) and a lot has dissappeared... it's really quite hard to believe... i'm always asking myself why i'm not getting these rushes of fear all the time...Benzos? Sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to all of the different types of drugs out there...but it's great to hear your story! And I know what you mean, you really can see how chemical it is when you go off and on things, and when sometimes you're in the pits of hell and sometimes you're just fine - it's got to be mainly chemical! Still, I think that we can learn coping mechanisms that can help us off the drugs...like, learning not to snap at people right away or say what you think (did that twice at work today, although to a couple of evil people so I quite enjoyed it! Plus I only have two weeks left...:)
> ... now how could doctors know more about medication? ... there is so much to know.. and the probem is, i think, the system is so swamped with patients and so few doctors (psychiatry applications are down, mental health funding is down, etc etc) that docs are too busy seeing patients to find time to really keep abreast of all of this vast information....You are right. I agree that it shouldn't all rest on our doctors. Again, I return to my new (not that new, actually) soap box: instead of having to fork out $100 a session for a shrink (I'm a grad student! But I could just imagine that there are far more mentally ill folks out there who have far less money...)I think that it should be subsidized...doctors give us scrips and free samples because they are so pressed for time/money, but they wouldn't be if things were perhaps better regulated?
> ... my thoughts on smoking are... i believe, and this is just a belief, that whatever need you have to smoke can be satisfied by less toxic means...
Quite agreed. As an ex-smoker, I know it's true. Any need you have can be satisfied by non-lethal or harmful means...some of us just don't know where to look or have the money to look there...(like drug addicts, not that I've ever been one, but I can imagine it would be tough to just, say, check yourself into a drug clinic, especially if it costs money...)
> ... as for antidepressants, i don't think there are many less dangerous alternatives to relieving depression..... hey therapy would be nice, if you could afford it.... i also think that if i was given a million dollars i would cheer up... or if beautiful women threw themselves at my feet... but i guess this just isn't totally realistic ...
> --> but we can always hope :)See? There you go, proving my point. We use the drugs because they tend to be cheaper (esp. free samples, and if you have health insurance, the copay isn't bad). Maybe someone can contradict me with a story of a very cheap/charitable pdoc who gave their services for less than, say, $40 a session (that was my cheapest p-doc in college)?
> >hit by a car? Yes, but that would be HAPPENSTANCE versus you ACTIVELY doing something that you know could harm yourself!
>
> ... i was under the impression that antidepressants generally have more positive effects than negative.... just like driving...
> whereas smoking is pretty much guaranteed to always have negative effects on health...
> ... but i admitt i am quite clueless as to the actual number of serious long term negative effects of medication ...Well, we think they do, because they make us feel better - sometimes fast. So we think they have more positive effects than negative - *think*! We don't know. The next generation will know more than we do, and the next, etc. It's funny; I work for a family of extremely wealthy folks right now, and it's amazing how much of a better life money buys you in this country. I mean, seriously - they always buy organic, shop in the health food stores, go to health spas for vacation, get massages, have tons of different shrinks...we should all be so lucky (i say lucky because many of them are the next generation inheritors of the wealth their parents worked for; they don't even work). That's why I want to move back to France - don'[t get me wrong, I adore America and am very patriotic! - but I ate so much vbetter there for CHEAP - and my doctor's appointments were about $10-20 a visit - plus, that was reimbursed by the state, even though I'm an American! I want to bring that kind of thinking back home, but we are quite stuck in our ways...
> i totally agree with you that medication shouldn't be given out in cases where it's not needed... i suppose though it's hard for a doc to know whether it is needed or not...
But...ideally isn't that his or her job? And if he/she can't answer the question, shouldn't they recommend you to someone who can? I recently heard from a nurse friend of mine that the reason they won't tell you you should go to a p-doc instead is that then, they would lose money in giving you the referral. Again - all about money! You can't tell me it's just human nature. We have to keep ourselves in check!
> .... in my case i have found docs very slow to jump on the medication bandwagon... i mean if i wanted to get my hands on lamotrigine for example, even though it seems to have very few negative effects and would seem to be very effective, actually finding a doc to perscribe it would be very tough...I'm glad...your docs at least seem to be thinking before doling out meds. And that's strange - why would it be tough for a doctor to prescribe you lamotrigine? Is it rare? New? I've not heard of it.
> .... so i guess the real question is... what do you think your doc should have done instead?Given me the name of a good p-doc, I guess. But she would lose money if she did that, and she won't do that. But then again - I can't afford to pay for a p-doc now anyway! I get 10 visits cheaply on my insurance, but I hate that - 10 is barely enough to get started, then you get sucked in to someone who is normally $100 a session!
> i totally agree ... perhaps drug companies should face tougher fines for not disclosing the negative effects of medication.... "we didn't think it was signifigant that our medication caused healthy volunteers to become suicidal" ...Yes, I totally agree there. Just like cigarette companies should face fines for not having disclosed to us the super negative effects of cigarettes - ok, now we can all say "everyone knows how bad they are" - but until that guy Russel Crowe played in "The INsider" - what's his name again - until he came out and testified that the tobacco companies knew that what they put in their tobacco was addictive - no one could say exactly what was so bad about them. It's all speculation until someone makes the drug companies talk. We don't know - we're not all pharmacologists/scientists etc.!
>
> let us know how you are doing
>
> i wish you well :)Thanks again for your kind thoughts. I think that I'm actually getting a clearer head now. I will surmount this thing inasmuch as I can without drugs - but again, I wouldn't judge you or anyone who chooses or needs to be on them. Right now, and until the drug companies get real with us (ha!), they are simply our best option.
Take care yourself.
Mireille
Posted by cybercafe on July 27, 2002, at 1:59:37
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened}}cybercafe, posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:33:17
> > ... i'm sorry you're having so much trouble... when i was having horrible withdrawal symptoms from effexor (i really just wanted to die), my doc recommended i take effexor and wow... i felt so relieved, ... it was a miracle...
>
> THanks for your thoughts...do you mean your doc switched you to something besides Effexor or told you to go back on it? I may end up staying on 37.5 mg every other day, but I'd rather not be on it at all...withdrawal seems to be getting better...we'll see.
sorry -- i meant to write my doc suggested clonazepam (klonopin) and it was a miracle for me (in getting rid of withdrawal effects)
Posted by cybercafe on July 27, 2002, at 3:01:07
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened}}cybercafe, posted by Mireille on July 26, 2002, at 21:33:17
>patients and are overworked themselves...it just might be nice if they laid it out for you and said, "look, this drug hasn't been tested in the long term, or on pregnant women, but it's worked for people with depression in the short term..."
hmmm.. actually most drugs have been studied for long term efficacy, and certainly teratogenic effects....
... in fact i find time and time again depressed people (myself certainly included) tend to focus on the negative and the side effects and not the fact that the medication will make them well...
so personally i would prefer it if a doctor were super-positive to make up for my negativity...seriously... people are suffering or dieing because they can imagine what side effects will be like, but not being rid of their depression... it's a very real problem
> Even people with serious depression - I know it's chemical, but I think we all need to learn coping skills...what if we all find out one day that this drug or that one is seriously detramental to our health, and they pull them all
... the problem with psychotherapy is it's just too expensive... who is going to pay for it? ...
and how effective is it?
> Ok, now I got on a roll - here is what should be done - my friend in France went to a shrink there, and ALL psychotherapy is government-reimbursed, so she got all of her fees reimbursed to her! It ends up being free! Sorry, but I think... really? i was thinking about moving to paris, but was scared i wouldn't be able to find a half decent p-doc there....
... though i find often that in systems where things are free, the wait to see someone is just unreasonable....>later on that you think the real problem is that we do not give enough money to mental health research/aid...that is why there are tons of mentally ill people in jail and on the streets
.. yeah... and perhaps the problem below that is stigma... or that we do not stick up for ourselves... we don't organize... we don't protest...
>New York...sorry, but SOCIALIZED medicine, that's my idea. We are the only first-world country outside of SOuth Africa who does not have socialized medicine.
i have never lived in the US, but i have lived in canada and the UK and they are both quite lacking...
> Benzos? Sorry, I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to all of the different types of drugs out there...but it's great to hear your story!
benzodiazepines, for example, valium or clonazepam
>mainly chemical! Still, I think that we can learn coping mechanisms that can help us off the drugs...like, learning not to snap at people right away or say what you think (did that twice at work today, although to a couple of evil people so I quite enjoyed it! Plus I only have two weeks left...:)
in my case i find circumstances (socializing for example) have very strong effects on my mood (positive) ....
on the other hand, my father convinced me that if i took medication i would go blind and become stupid, so it wasn't until after 2 years of trying to do without i realized that i would either have to take medication or kill myself.. so blindness and stupidity seemed like a reasonable sacrifice :)>there who have far less money...)I think that it should be subsidized...doctors give us scrips and free samples because they are so pressed for time/money, but they wouldn't be if things were perhaps better regulated?
up here in canada it is free, .. you just can't get an appointment ..
> See? There you go, proving my point. We use the drugs because they tend to be cheaper (esp. free samples, and if you have health insurance, the copay isn't bad). Maybe someone can
... yep drugs are cheaper and often more effective ...
.. but if we did provide free psychotherapy, wouldn't everyone use it, and could we afford that?
> Well, we think they do, because they make us feel better - sometimes fast. So we think they have more positive effects than negative - *think*! We don't know. The next generation will
... okay, but this is the same with everything... we don't know anything for 100% sure ... but it does seem like there is quite a lot of information out there suggesting that antidepressants are quite safe
>better life money buys you in this country. I mean, seriously - they always buy organic, shop in the health food stores, go to health spas for vacation, get massages, have tons of different shrinks...we should all be so lucky (i say lucky because many of them are the next generation inheritors of the wealth their parents worked for; they don't even work). That's why I want to
... yep... i have often wondered if it might not be better if money were more fairly distributed.. who knows... perhaps this is just evolution .... but it certainly is not consistent for people to behave this way, and then claim fairness or goodness
>move back to France - don'[t get me wrong, I adore America and am very patriotic! - but I ate so much vbetter there for CHEAP - and my doctor's appointments were about $10-20 a visit - plus, that was reimbursed by the state, even though I'm an American! I want to bring that kind of thinking back home, but we are quite stuck in our ways...... how hard is it to get free health care in france if you are not a citizen?
... i have UK (EU?) citizenship btw...> But...ideally isn't that his or her job? And if he/she can't answer the question, shouldn't they recommend you to someone who can? I recently
how can you tell if someone needs medication? ... usually you'd say that if their problems are signifigant enough for them to seek help, they could benefit from medication... other than that, .... well i suppose the hamilton rating scale could be used.. but again, that would take quite a bit of time....
>heard from a nurse friend of mine that the reason they won't tell you you should go to a p-doc instead is that then, they would lose money in giving you the referral. Again - all about money! You can't tell me it's just human nature. We have to keep ourselves in check!
... i suspect if one is not seriously depressed you probably would not be referred to a pdoc because you would just end up waiting for months when you could receive adequate treatment from your family doc...
> I'm glad...your docs at least seem to be thinking before doling out meds. And that's strange - why would it be tough for a doctor to prescribe you lamotrigine? Is it rare? New? I've not heard of it..... the newer drugs of course aren't as proven .... or worst case, older docs havn't taken the time to really know the newer meds
> Given me the name of a good p-doc, I guess. But she would lose money if she did that, and she won't do that. But then again - I can't afford to pay for a p-doc now anyway! I get 10 visits cheaply on my insurance, but I hate that - 10 is barely enough to get started, then you get sucked in to someone who is normally $100 a session!
hmmmm... i actually think most family docs realize that a pdoc wouldn't have time to see you, so they don't refer you because it's in your own best interest...
> Thanks again for your kind thoughts. I think that I'm actually getting a clearer head now. I will surmount this thing inasmuch as I can without drugs - but again, I wouldn't judge you or anyone who chooses or needs to be on them. Right now, and until the drug companies get real with us (ha!), they are simply our best option.
... or until we win the lottery right ;)
Posted by Mireille on July 30, 2002, at 19:06:39
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened}}cybercafe, posted by cybercafe on July 27, 2002, at 3:01:07
> hmmm.. actually most drugs have been studied for long term efficacy, and certainly teratogenic effects....
Well, between you and oracle I am learning lots about this. I guess I've just gotten a few too many "shady" answers from docs, but it's true that everything has side effects and that one has to weight them, that's all.
>
> ... in fact i find time and time again depressed people (myself certainly included) tend to focus on the negative and the side effects and not the fact that the medication will make them well...
> so personally i would prefer it if a doctor were super-positive to make up for my negativity...Yeah, that's how mine was, and that's how I got hooked on Effexor. I mean, at the time, it was splendid - I quit being suicidal, I lost 25 pounds...but now I have plateaud, and hopefully it's not that I need *stronger* meds, but that I need to try life off of them for a while. I feel stronger now; last time I tried to go off them, I subsequently lost my job and had to move back home. *Not* an ideal time to go off meds!
But I am at a very good, very stable place right now, so we'll see. The other big factor is that I want to get pregnant next year, and I want to have these drugs out of my system before I even think about that.
> seriously... people are suffering or dieing because they can imagine what side effects will be like, but not being rid of their depression... it's a very real problemWell, I know too many who are the opposite now! Either because there is too long a wait list for p-docs (your country) or they are just too darn expensive (mine), they are doling out meds like candy here. I've heard it's the same in Europe in some places. In fact, i have a friend who this very day came back from her family doctor - she was suffering from what seemed like bad PMS two months in a row - with a bunch of samples of Prozac! He has put her on them for three months - for bad PMS! I mean, maybe her symptoms were more indicative of depression, I'm not sure. Still, Prozac seems a bit much...and he did tell her to only take one if she felt bad, otherwise to not take them every day. Is that strange, or do I just know very little about Prozac (this is true)?
> ... the problem with psychotherapy is it's just too expensive... who is going to pay for it? ...
>
> and how effective is it?I know, you're right. Who is going to pay...hmmm...well here, I would be the one! $100 a week, thank you very much whether or not I'm a student, thank you very much...there are alternatives, but public practice just isn't the best...yes, the more we talk on this site, the more I am aware that NO ONE knows enough about mental health or wants to deal with it...the drug companies sure are dealing with it, but not our governments! It's still too taboo. That's got to change soon considering how many of us seem to have problems/how many drugs the doctors keep doling out! Someone has to take notice and I guess you're right - we have to stick together and lobby for it ourselves!
> ... really? i was thinking about moving to paris, but was scared i wouldn't be able to find a half decent p-doc there....
> ... though i find often that in systems where things are free, the wait to see someone is just unreasonable....I'm not sure if the docs are decent. It's true that she didn't like hers at first. Not sure if she stayed with him; haven't talked to her about that recently. However, I know she didn't have to wait at all to get the doc. I've heard it's as horrid as America in both the UK and Canada - hassle-wise. UK is especially known for being the worst socialized system. I saw a show on it here but don't remember the details at all.
> .. yeah... and perhaps the problem below that is stigma... or that we do not stick up for ourselves... we don't organize... we don't protest...Again, you said it. I think that if no one else will, we ought to make the move! As I said that, a very strange image of a large group of mentally challenged folks marching through the streets just came to my mind...I being one of those folks, but still, see the stigmas we produce in our society? The first image in my head is that of a bunch of loonies marching through the streets, but I am one of those loonies! And I still had that image. Good lord. We have quite an obstacle to surmount.
Heard an interesting thing on National Public Radio today: the statistics that men have depression only 1/2 as much as women are now said to be false - it's just that depression manifests itself highly differently in men for the most part - i.e., not as many eating disorders, etc. But still - a great leap forward - since we all knew that it isn't just women who suffer from depression! The researchers are now really looking at it from a different angle..that's progress...
> i have never lived in the US, but i have lived in canada and the UK and they are both quite lacking...Well, there goes my idealism...:) No, I think that something obviously in between what you have for the most part in Europe and what we have would work...I'm not even sure...our system is such a mess right now. Things come out in the news every day...last night, it was "drug known to help cancer patients costs enormous amounts of money...too much for most people...but its research and manufacture are paid for by American tax dollars!" So screwed up. W. has to go! AND we have to get someone in our presidential office who is going to work on health care...like Clinton tried to, then let it slide because the main problem is the people...they don't want to change anything but they whine that it's messed up...
> in my case i find circumstances (socializing for example) have very strong effects on my mood (positive) ....
> on the other hand, my father convinced me that if i took medication i would go blind and become stupid, so it wasn't until after 2 years of trying to do without i realized that i would either have to take medication or kill myself.. so blindness and stupidity seemed like a reasonable sacrifice :)I had the same experience. In fact, I think many people of our generation do - my mother threatened me when I was going to take it - told me terrible things would happen to me, that I was giving in, a drug-taker...then, she begged me to get back on it last time I went off and had to move back in with them! No, I've been there, and I think it is largely situational...just like seasonal depression, dependent on outside stimuli (or lack thereof)...I know that right now is a good time for me since I've just gotten happily married and am looking forward to a pending trip to teach English in France (in a year, but still)...on the other hand, I'm trying to finish grad school this year, which I previously dropped out of due to depression...again, there was more to it than that - boyfriend of 2 years suddenly dumping me "out of the blue", having a horrid roommate situation, etc...then my doc put me on Paxil which made me gain 40 pounds, and for a bulemic, not a good thing. Anyway, I am a bit nervous but I do know that I can always go back on if I have to. The bottle is there, but I am going to try to overcome it myself.
You know, it's funny, but going through withdrawals this time, I know how much of it is chemical so it's a lot less scary. When I say I want to die, and feel just awful, I realize mentally that it's a chemical low in my brain causing it, not any real-life situation. Nothing is really that bad. Ok, I've put on 25 pounds that I've tried and tried to lose and nothing works, but there are worse things in life, and getting off this medication will help that. Anyway, the "dark thoughts" are a lot less scary this time now that I know how much of it is chemical, and now that I'm decided to try other options before going back on the drugs, it's easier to get through them.
> up here in canada it is free, .. you just can't get an appointment ..So it's a lose-lose situation! Yes, I guess there is no Utopia. We're getting toward some sort of better system, I hope, everywhere. There goes the idealism again...
> ... yep drugs are cheaper and often more effective ...
...at least in the short-term. They make you feel better right away. Although, they seem to poop out for lots of people after a while, that is, unless you are willing to up your dosage ad infinitum, which I am terrified of because I think I would just become a walking zombie, or a drug addict - I mean, it's so scary to *need* a drug! We all feel that I think...we don't know what to think, should we stay on forever, try different ones every time one poops out, what? I'm not sure.
> .. but if we did provide free psychotherapy, wouldn't everyone use it, and could we afford that?
I don't know...sounds like that's the problem at least in Canada and UK? Yes, and the people who needed it most probably wouldn't get it somehow...how sad, it seems to always come down to "survival of the fittest/richest"...I guess it's human nature...
> ... okay, but this is the same with everything... we don't know anything for 100% sure ... but it does seem like there is quite a lot of information out there suggesting that antidepressants are quite safeTrue, and the AIDS drugs have the same problem, as well as the new drugs for some types of cancer...people at that stage are willing to try anything to stay alive, much like us, I guess. It's a matter of life and death, often.
> ... yep... i have often wondered if it might not be better if money were more fairly distributed.. who knows... perhaps this is just evolution .... but it certainly is not consistent for people to behave this way, and then claim fairness or goodnessWow, we end up with a lot of rhetorical and philosophical questions on this site, don't we? I do love knowing that other people are thinking of the same types of things, though, don't you? If nothing else, we realize that we are really in this together. The wealthy people I work for are awfully nice, and they give to charity, etc., it's just that they have such better lives period! Makes one want to be rich just to live longer. I don't know, I can't help it if it's not my goal. Maybe it should be...or as you say, at least to play the lottery! :)
>
>
>
Posted by cybercafe on July 31, 2002, at 4:02:04
In reply to Re: I'll tell you what happened}}cybercafe, posted by Mireille on July 30, 2002, at 19:06:39
> Yeah, that's how mine was, and that's how I got hooked on Effexor. I mean, at the time, it was splendid - I quit being suicidal, I lost 25 pounds...but now I have plateaud, and hopefully
i hope you are under the supervision of a doctor.
I found that when i went off paxil the first time i got worse and worse -- but never even noticed it myself until things got really bad
This is the end of the thread.
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