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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jerrympls on May 31, 2002, at 0:05:08
...and have yet to find a pill or device to bring that joy back. I've tried on my own only to be dissappointed by failure...I wish to feel the warmth of a major chord played by the lower strings.....or the excitement of a symphonic flurish and crescendo and accelerando to the end! But nothing...I feel nothing...It's like drinking air and not even being thristy. It almost annoys me. How come I can't listen to a piece of music I used to love so much and tell myself to enjoy it--and remind myself how much I loved it? No beauty do I hear...no warmth do I feel....no chills of excitement.....no joy.......
no music in my heart.
Depression is a cruel, cruel, cruel beast. I wouldn't wish it on anyone......ever.
Posted by jay on May 31, 2002, at 9:27:01
In reply to All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by Jerrympls on May 31, 2002, at 0:05:08
> ...and have yet to find a pill or device to bring that joy back. I've tried on my own only to be dissappointed by failure...I wish to feel the warmth of a major chord played by the lower strings.....or the excitement of a symphonic flurish and crescendo and accelerando to the end! But nothing...I feel nothing...It's like drinking air and not even being thristy. It almost annoys me. How come I can't listen to a piece of music I used to love so much and tell myself to enjoy it--and remind myself how much I loved it? No beauty do I hear...no warmth do I feel....no chills of excitement.....no joy.......
>
> no music in my heart.
>
> Depression is a cruel, cruel, cruel beast. I wouldn't wish it on anyone......ever.I hear you on this one! But, I have found that when I can get back into music, it's like heaven. Have you talked about this with your doctor? Mine knows I am a musician, and I complain about and put it in with the same side-effects as loss of sex drive, etc. I find a number of medications antagonize the problem, but it is hard to tell if it is a side effect or part of depression/anxiety. Be very 'vocal' with your doctor about this, as I don't think we should just have to 'live with it'. Just the same as I don't think we should have to just 'live with' sexual side effects, or any other nasty ones.
BTW...also just a note I found much of my musical taste has changed since I uncovered and got help for depression/anxiety. Maybe try exploring some other styles of music. If you like classical and jazz, check out some of the interesting styles of 'world-beat music', and the many different styles of folk music. There is some great stuff that deals with some of the very intense emotions we experience in depression/anxiety.
Best wishes,
Jay
Posted by Mr Beev on May 31, 2002, at 9:52:40
In reply to All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by Jerrympls on May 31, 2002, at 0:05:08
This is most interesting and bears further investigation.
I am personally familiar with loss of listening interest due
to depression, but had not heard of medications inducing such
an effect.Jay's recommendation is a good one: perhaps exploring
hiterto ignored genres might prove efficacious. My enduring
passion continues to be classical, but when depression removes
the thumb from the mental dyke and joi-de-vivre begins flowing
sadly away, I find that I am often more receptive to simpler,
lively music than what one often encounters in the classical
realm.You might try world music as Jay suggests, or maybe
ambient, nature sounds, especially vigourous classical, such
as Vivaldi, even disco or Metallica, who knows? It is
important to keep an open mind - what has one to lose? -
and not to let friends or family who are music snobs deride
your experimenting.Best regards,
Mr Beev
Posted by deli on May 31, 2002, at 9:58:18
In reply to All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by Jerrympls on May 31, 2002, at 0:05:08
> ...and have yet to find a pill or device to bring that joy back. I've tried on my own only to be dissappointed by failure...I wish to feel the warmth of a major chord played by the lower strings.....or the excitement of a symphonic flurish and crescendo and accelerando to the end! But nothing...I feel nothing...It's like drinking air and not even being thristy. It almost annoys me. How come I can't listen to a piece of music I used to love so much and tell myself to enjoy it--and remind myself how much I loved it? No beauty do I hear...no warmth do I feel....no chills of excitement.....no joy.......
>
> no music in my heart.
>
> Depression is a cruel, cruel, cruel beast. I wouldn't wish it on anyone......ever.I hear you too. I am exactly in the same boat. I can't seem to get pleasure from the simplest things. Not even hugging my kids which I so often did. I just keep on praying and hoping. I will keep you in my prayers.
God Bless
Deli
Posted by omega man on June 1, 2002, at 23:37:57
In reply to All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by Jerrympls on May 31, 2002, at 0:05:08
I find when I don't want to listen to music I need to create it..although thats just me..
Have you ever tried Extasy ?
I would'nt recommend it for going to live orchestras ..I did and I was fidgeting trying to keep still !!
I would say your problem is musical burn out...you have to try something new....I had a classical period...and I was crazy about it all...but you go thru it..and it peaks with rach and the stuff from the early 20th century..reaches emotional peaks...and then the war ..and no more new classical music anymore..
why is that ? we needed something new...you need that depth you get with classical music ? the hour long trip..the non song format..just the mind..F*k you get from pure music ?
Try some really good techno played by DJ's...who can mix some really clever stuff...trance..or the new stuff that plays tricks with your brain...not the trite you hear on the radio....
I assure you once you get used to rythmn as opposed to harmonic emotional overload or perhaps introduce yourself to semi-ambient slowed down techno..you'll find depths that all the best young minds are into these days...
Posted by Jerrympls on June 2, 2002, at 1:25:27
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by omega man on June 1, 2002, at 23:37:57
Thank you all for the suggestions and your stories....However, I've tried everything and it's impossible to predict if and when the feeling will come back.
Let me clarify, in my original post I meant to convey that various AD meds were unsuccessful at helping restore my joy for music. I did not mean I had tried illegal narcotics, etc.
My main love is film music - John Williams is my hero. I have over 650 CD's staring at me right now...and they're dusty...99% of them having not been touched in years.
I do remember that when i started Luvox when it first came out that some of my love for music came back for a while. I also rememeber when I had my wisdom teeth out and was on a steady diet of Vicodin that music felt so wonderful -every note....*sigh*....Also, Ritalin opened the sensory gates and while I listened to music for a brief moment I could feel it alive again...briefly...
I think there's something wrong with my rewward system. But, how can one fix that? everything that can be done is being done to help me - I think. How do you tell your doc to help you to feel music and joy again?
I've tried switching genres, styles, artists, nothing. Bored. Plain. Grey. Line.
Here, try this: If anyone has this recording - Listen to Pines of Rome (movement IV: Pini della Via Appia) by Ottorino Respighi. It's an orgasmic ending - if not THE MOST orgasmic endings in romantic symphonic literature. So, play it as loud as you can a couple times through - it starts very soft and ends very loud.
Now, if your loudest volume level is 20, turn it down to 7 and face your speakers away from you and throw towels around your speakers to muffle the sound....
That's the closest I can get to try to describe what I hear and feel.
Plus, maybe some of you will like this piece...it can be very inspirational.
Thanks everyone....
Jerry
Posted by Ritch on June 2, 2002, at 9:39:16
In reply to All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by Jerrympls on June 2, 2002, at 1:25:27
> Thank you all for the suggestions and your stories....However, I've tried everything and it's impossible to predict if and when the feeling will come back.
>
> Let me clarify, in my original post I meant to convey that various AD meds were unsuccessful at helping restore my joy for music. I did not mean I had tried illegal narcotics, etc.
>
> My main love is film music - John Williams is my hero. I have over 650 CD's staring at me right now...and they're dusty...99% of them having not been touched in years.
>
> I do remember that when i started Luvox when it first came out that some of my love for music came back for a while. I also rememeber when I had my wisdom teeth out and was on a steady diet of Vicodin that music felt so wonderful -every note....*sigh*....Also, Ritalin opened the sensory gates and while I listened to music for a brief moment I could feel it alive again...briefly...
>
> I think there's something wrong with my rewward system. But, how can one fix that? everything that can be done is being done to help me - I think. How do you tell your doc to help you to feel music and joy again?
>
> I've tried switching genres, styles, artists, nothing. Bored. Plain. Grey. Line.
>
> Here, try this: If anyone has this recording - Listen to Pines of Rome (movement IV: Pini della Via Appia) by Ottorino Respighi. It's an orgasmic ending - if not THE MOST orgasmic endings in romantic symphonic literature. So, play it as loud as you can a couple times through - it starts very soft and ends very loud.
>
> Now, if your loudest volume level is 20, turn it down to 7 and face your speakers away from you and throw towels around your speakers to muffle the sound....
>
> That's the closest I can get to try to describe what I hear and feel.
>
> Plus, maybe some of you will like this piece...it can be very inspirational.
>
> Thanks everyone....
>
> JerryJerry, I know you have probably tried just about everything, but here's a combo I found that worked quite well for music appreciation: A low-dose of Celexa (say 5-10mg) combined with the DA-agonist pergolide (Permax). You could probably pitch a tad of dexedrine into that and you might have a neato combination.
just some thoughts,
Mitch
Posted by omega man on June 2, 2002, at 17:40:44
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again... » Jerrympls, posted by Ritch on June 2, 2002, at 9:39:16
I just read ritches suggestions...very insightfull..I totally forgot about Anti-cholinergic drugs...I was on them when I first got ill...well over a decade ago...
That was when I got into classicall music..I would spend all day listening to music on those..the longer deeper and more intense the better...I suppose I was in full time escape mode...which brings up the question..that perhaps...the music itself has become a trap...
maybe you have gone as far as you can..in the sense of being a listener...
I don't know if you can get el-dopa type drugs but they are quite something...but be very carefull what you mix them with...I ended up in hospital ..you can check contra-indications on line... I think the reason they work for music is that your brain basically drops the energy required for smooth muscle control..so all the senses become enhanced...I definetely would'nt try to go out or drive on them..and they are very trippy...
Put it this way..I started taking them a few years ago..and had my piano/synth setup..luckily its a very good one...
I just pressed a note and held it..and the musical expericence was intense..very high rich frequencies..three years spent playing the piano since that...
The brand I have in uk is called Merbentyl..or Dicyclomine..but be very carefull when mixing with AD's...I was on my way to a coma..Pre-emptied by symptomns like seeing people talk and hearing what they say three seconds later...
Posted by SassyMom33 on June 2, 2002, at 23:28:24
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by omega man on June 1, 2002, at 23:37:57
Ecstacy (Extacy), like X the narcotic? Plz tell me you are not suggesting that some one use X in order to find relief from this, or anything.
WARNING--X will cause a lot more harm than good!!!! "Coming down" from X can actually cause depression, anxiety, & paranoia!! If that weren't bad enough...it can also cause, impotence, brain damage, and death!
X is in the same catagory and Cocain & Heroin! PLEASE...Ecstacy is NOT a mood enhancer! EPECIALLY for people already suffering from depression, and the such! Aimee
Posted by Jerrympls on June 3, 2002, at 0:05:21
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by SassyMom33 on June 2, 2002, at 23:28:24
No matter who posted the suggestion that I try extasy I am not planning on it and I don't advise anyone else to do it either.
Anyone know of any studies involving depression and listening to music - or music therapy?
> Ecstacy (Extacy), like X the narcotic? Plz tell me you are not suggesting that some one use X in order to find relief from this, or anything.
>
> WARNING--X will cause a lot more harm than good!!!! "Coming down" from X can actually cause depression, anxiety, & paranoia!! If that weren't bad enough...it can also cause, impotence, brain damage, and death!
>
> X is in the same catagory and Cocain & Heroin! PLEASE...Ecstacy is NOT a mood enhancer! EPECIALLY for people already suffering from depression, and the such! Aimee
Posted by Jerrympls on June 3, 2002, at 0:34:31
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by SassyMom33 on June 2, 2002, at 23:28:24
So, I have been thinking about this and here is some insight into my sound problem.
I've never really used music as an escape - not in the sense of "God I feel so terrible I can't wait to drown out the world with my headphones" kind of escape. I guess you could say I used it as something to get me through the day--especially in jr. high and high school - and it was classical music. I would get excited just thinking about a new record (yes, I am 30 and they still had records back then) to listen to when I got home. I never really attached music to having a bad day or negative feelings, ever that I can recall. I still to this day cannot study or concentrate on a project while music is playing. I also used music as something to look forward to when it was time for bed. It's interesting now that I think about it - but many times I would listen to fast and furious romantically loud an flourishing cello concertos or the like while in bed and then fall right to sleep when they ended - or before sometimes. But it was alwways fun to pick music to listen to each night. This was before the depression struck.
Now that I think about it, when my depression hit me the first time about 10 years ago, it was probably the first time I listened to music to try and escape from terrible feelings of lonliness and dread. But, it didn't become habit and my love for listening for music didn't disintigrate over night.
I have noticed that stimulants (dexedrine, adderall) can punch it back in for a couple weeks however, for some reason the music ultimately ends up becoming an annoyance. Ritalin always made the music feel so wonderful - almost normal feelings - but then my intellect - or whatever - would kick in and say "This is the Ritalin - in 2 hours you'll be depressed again." How horrible a life.
IN the past couple years I have noticed that the worst thing to do is to force myself to listen to music because it makes a powerful imprint. For example, if for th past week I have been having terrible feelings of lonliness, dread, anxiety and fatigue and I force myself at the same time to listen to some new pop tunes and/or a piano concerto for the week every day - when I come back in a couple months - or a year and listen to that piece - it's as if my mind plays back the exact feelings I had been experiencing during that time -it's like walking into your childhood bedroom and remmebering the terrible nightmares you had.....
If you ask me - and I've said this before - I think it has to do with my reward/pleasure centers. I feel no gratification or satisfaction or much pleasure for anything for that matter and I think when one listens to music the beginning, middle and end results are (in no order) satisfaction/gratification/pleasure. So, if my dopamine is not in balance ,etc and I'm not getting musch pleasure from things - sex, completing projects, intimacy, love - then attempting to achieve gratification or solace from Tchaikovsky is a dead end.
And that frustrates me to no end.
I guess this "symptom" of depression is as a "shot-in-the-dark" treatable as all the rest. But, this one is so important to me.What to do.
Sorry for the long post.
Jerry
Posted by SassyMom33 on June 3, 2002, at 2:51:27
In reply to All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by Jerrympls on June 3, 2002, at 0:34:31
Well, I am relieved to hear that you didn't take the 'advice' to try ecstacy! Thank goodness! I can't believe that it was even recommended!
Unfortunatly, I have no real advice on how to deal with what you are going to. It must be EXTREMELY frustrating for something that has always brought you comfort, now doesn't.
How long has this loss of enjoyment taken place? I am sorry that you are going through this! Even more sorry that I do not have any words of advice to give. I can send you some (((HUGS))) and say hang in there. If you would like to email me, please do. sassymom33@hotmail.com Aimee
Posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 21:14:36
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by SassyMom33 on June 2, 2002, at 23:28:24
I got the impression jerrylmps was of high enough intellect to use these drugs with insight and restraint....for occasional recreation...i'm sure he is well aware of the dangers..
I was definetley not making a wider suggestion and I hope others would not pick up on that....
Aldus Huxley once said that illegal drugs like LSD were safe in the hands of intellectuals but not average people..its my experience that the main dangers posed by non legal drugs are how "cleanly" they are produced...and that the rest is really down to how somebody can handle them...
I've seen some amazing creative results come from the minds of those few who know how to use them...but this is a very big argument to get into...
I've seen more scary deaths and adverse side effects with some of the cocktails people try here than with occasional recreational use of drugs like EX and LSD...of course these arguments could go all directions but I hope you understand the essence or context of this particular thread....
I was recommending it as a one time kick start..not for regular use...
Posted by Jerrympls on June 3, 2002, at 21:34:43
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again... » SassyMom33, posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 21:14:36
I actually agree with some of what you are saying - I'm fascinated with mood altering drugs/medications and the effects they produce, etc. I minored in biological psychology and loved every minute. However, I've never felt compelled to experiment with drugs - isn't that odd? Well, I guess there are doctors out there who research and study the minds and behaviors of serial killers but never actually go out and kill people themselves...eh?I too have seen people on "legal" medication cocktails going through terrible withdrawl/side effects, etc. My worst is going off SSRI's I HATE those BRAIN SHOCKS!!!!!!!!!! ARGH!
Anyway.....back to music. Hmm..not sure what to say. It still is a grey emptiness for me...unfortunately.
> I got the impression jerrylmps was of high enough intellect to use these drugs with insight and restraint....for occasional recreation...i'm sure he is well aware of the dangers..
>
> I was definetley not making a wider suggestion and I hope others would not pick up on that....
>
>
> Aldus Huxley once said that illegal drugs like LSD were safe in the hands of intellectuals but not average people..
>
> its my experience that the main dangers posed by non legal drugs are how "cleanly" they are produced...and that the rest is really down to how somebody can handle them...
>
> I've seen some amazing creative results come from the minds of those few who know how to use them...but this is a very big argument to get into...
>
> I've seen more scary deaths and adverse side effects with some of the cocktails people try here than with occasional recreational use of drugs like EX and LSD...of course these arguments could go all directions but I hope you understand the essence or context of this particular thread....
>
> I was recommending it as a one time kick start..not for regular use...
Posted by adamie on June 3, 2002, at 22:55:59
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again..., posted by SassyMom33 on June 2, 2002, at 23:28:24
I agree. I am completely discusted omega would suggest that. completely disgusted.> Ecstacy (Extacy), like X the narcotic? Plz tell me you are not suggesting that some one use X in order to find relief from this, or anything.
>
> WARNING--X will cause a lot more harm than good!!!! "Coming down" from X can actually cause depression, anxiety, & paranoia!! If that weren't bad enough...it can also cause, impotence, brain damage, and death!
>
> X is in the same catagory and Cocain & Heroin! PLEASE...Ecstacy is NOT a mood enhancer! EPECIALLY for people already suffering from depression, and the such! Aimee
Posted by adamie on June 3, 2002, at 23:02:50
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again... » SassyMom33, posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 21:14:36
this comment is funny considering people who use illegal drugs generally have lower IQ's than those who choose not to.and---
yes they may improve creativity for that period but meanwhile also causing brain damage and whatever other effects the specific drug may cause. the person will be more creative for that short while but the end result is a person whose brain is damaged and less efficient for later use.
> Aldus Huxley once said that illegal drugs like LSD were safe in the hands of intellectuals but not average people..
>
> its my experience that the main dangers posed by non legal drugs are how "cleanly" they are produced...and that the rest is really down to how somebody can handle them...
> I've seen some amazing creative results come from the minds of those few who know how to use them...but this is a very big argument to get into...
>
> I've seen more scary deaths and adverse side effects with some of the cocktails people try here than with occasional recreational use of drugs like EX and LSD...of course these arguments could go all directions but I hope you understand the essence or context of this particular thread....
>
> I was recommending it as a one time kick start..not for regular use...
Posted by beardedlady on June 4, 2002, at 13:58:45
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again... » omega man, posted by adamie on June 3, 2002, at 23:02:50
I first smoked pot when I was 13, and I continued to use it throughout high school and college. I used speed in undergrad school, where I also tried Ecstacy a few times, and took LSD (small pieces of blotter) once in awhile. Most of the people I knew who used drugs were smarter than the average person, though, and many of them have Ph.D.s now and are quite smart. I graduated from my Master's Degree program with a 4.0 average, and I now teach college English.
I'm sure lots of people, smart and dumb, use drugs. Maybe some of you only know the dumb ones; I happened to know the smart ones. And I knew a lot of folks who we'll just call "intellectually challenged" who never touched the stuff, yet they can't write a complete sentence! (Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, I'm speaking of people I know, not people on the internet.)
In my older age, I tend to think drugs of any kind (including aspirin) do more harm than good, but the legal drugs are often the most harmful. (Did we ever worry about side effects when we smoked pot or ate mushrooms?! It's sort of a funny thought to me now, considering I worry about the side effects of antibiotics, allergy medicines, inhalers, etc.)
As for enjoying music--or anything--again, depression makes that hard. Singing is what makes music enjoyable for me. I like to sing at the top of my lungs. I think something wonderful kicks in and cheers me up. But many folks on the board had wonderful suggestions. It is quite possible that your musical tastes have changed. Or maybe you need an endorphin boost--like the kind that exercise gives--before that music receptor can overcome the depressed music appreciation cells!
beardy : )>
Posted by Xevious on June 4, 2002, at 20:26:57
In reply to Re: All I want is to enjoy listening to music again... » SassyMom33, posted by adamie on June 3, 2002, at 22:55:59
Just a reality check -
MDMA (Ecstasy) is both a stimulant (like methamphetamine) and a mild hallucinogen (similar to mescaline or peyote), but it is not a narcotic. In pure form, reasonable doses and a controlled setting, it can be and has been a beneficial therapeutic aid when administered by a psychiatrist. Not that that will be happening again any time soon, though, as the hysteria generated by our government in its zeal to stamp out illegal (and dangerous) club use has left MDMA on the Schedule I list, seriously hindering legal scientific studies into the therapeutic effectiveness of this chemical. (I won't even go into why the inhumane economics of the pharmaceutical industry would prevent this from becoming a "real" drug...)
Perhaps the biggest danger with MDMA and other street drugs is that the users of these substances have little or no control over dosage, quality or even the chemical content of the drugs they are taking. And street Ecstacy is very dangerous in this regard indeed - the MDMA is very frequently cut with or completely replaced by other dangerous chemicals, many of which can compound or complicate the already dangerous side effects that MDMA can cause in high doses.
For most of us here, the largest danger with MDMA is the fact that it is indeed a very powerful mood enhancer, as it creates a surge of serotonin that can cut briefly through cronic depression. Therefore, the potential for chronic abuse is high, and chronic use of MDMA has been demonstrated to have rather serious neurotoxic effects.
The point that I'm trying to make here is that while I'll take a stand and say that street drugs are bad, it is generally not the drug itself but the delivery method and lack of controls on dosage, purity and composition that make them really dangerous. Before we go off on a crusade of elimination, we must remember that many of the prescription medications that we ourselves depend on carry many of the same dangers - it is only through careful use and avoidance of abuse that we are able to enjoy the therapeutic effects (and side-effects ;) ) of our meds.
No knee-jerking, please... let's keep these drugs *in* the hands of our scientists and teach our kids to make good choices...
This is the end of the thread.
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