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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mdertinger on February 28, 2002, at 8:20:29
Does anyone have any info on SAM-E? My main concern is whether it's metabolized by the liver?
Does is work? I'm looking for some help for my dad who has some depression/sleep problems AND a compromised liver. His doctor may not allow him to take any AD's.
Posted by Bill L on February 28, 2002, at 8:43:34
In reply to How safe is SAM-E, posted by mdertinger on February 28, 2002, at 8:20:29
I have taken SAM-e. It should be safe for the liver. I currently take Celexa. Celexa is more safe for the liver than most other antidepressants. You should ask the doctor about first trying Celexa.
> Does anyone have any info on SAM-E? My main concern is whether it's metabolized by the liver?
>
> Does is work? I'm looking for some help for my dad who has some depression/sleep problems AND a compromised liver. His doctor may not allow him to take any AD's.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 1, 2002, at 13:19:47
In reply to How safe is SAM-E, posted by mdertinger on February 28, 2002, at 8:20:29
Actually, SAM-e is thought to be highly BENEFICIAL to liver functioning as well as arthritis and mood. SAM-e is a naturally occurring compound and is manufactured by the human body. However, some people do not produce enough of it and supplementation may be beneficial.
SAM-e is involved in a plethora of various biochemical reactions in the human body. It functions as a very important methyl group donor. With regard to mood and related brain chemistry, SAM-e serves as the methylating agent in the biochemical reaction mechanism whereby various neurotransmitters (serotonin and dopamine in particular) are synthesized from amino acids in dietary protein.
For me personally, SAM-e has turned out to be a lifesaver! I have waited to post on this topic until I gave it some time to make sure it did not poop out right away. I do not want to post a proSAM-e testimonial only to find out later that it did not last. However, I have experienced positive results for four consecutive months and, therefore, I am ready to post.
I'm BPII. Lithium adequately controls my hypomania but does nothing for my depression. Any of the SSRI's will take away my "I want to die" mood but leaves me with side effects (loss of ambition, loss of energy, lack of motivation, blunted emotions, etc). I have tried a ton of other ADs over the years, but I will not bore you with the details.
Four months ago I went to my regular visit with my pdoc. At the time, I was only taking Li because of the AD side effects. Depression was a problem for me at the time. My pdoc had recently reviewed several studies showing success in treating depression using SAM-e in conjunction with an AD and success using SAM-e alone. He suggested that I take two 200 mg SAM-e tablets daily in conjunction with 25 mg of Zoloft. I am hypersensitive to most medication so I take small doses.
Initially I could only take one 200 mg tablet of SAM-e every other day. If I took more, I would experience side effects (flush, nausea, confused thinking, general ill feeling, "skin crawling"). Currently, I take one 200 mg tablet daily without any adverse side effects. I currently take 600 mg Lithobid, 12.5 mg Zoloft, and 200 mg SAM-e. Eventually, I plan to discontinue the small amount of Zoloft.
Bottom line: 200 mg SAM-e daily has helped me more than any of the many ADs I've tried over the years. It is very important to take plenty of B-6, B-12 (sublingual form) and folate with the SAM-e. Also take SAM-e on an empty stomach.
Good luck in helping your Dad. Here are some links to articles on the topic. Do some research (use "SAM-e" in search engine). Buy a good name brand to ensure product quality.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/sameart.html
http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/inyourhead/allinyourhead_36.html
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.same.html
http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1041299b.html
http://www.arthritissupport.com/track/goto/rtgoto30l.cfm
-- Ron
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> Does anyone have any info on SAM-E? My main concern is whether it's metabolized by the liver?
>
> Does is work? I'm looking for some help for my dad who has some depression/sleep problems AND a compromised liver. His doctor may not allow him to take any AD's.
Posted by mdertinger on March 6, 2002, at 8:33:42
In reply to Re: How safe is SAM-E » mdertinger, posted by Ron Hill on March 1, 2002, at 13:19:47
Hi,
Where do you buy your SAM-e? What brands do you recommend? I was at my grocery store and I found 20/200 mg tablets were $35!!!
Have you found a better deal on the internet?
Thanks!
Posted by beardedlady on March 6, 2002, at 8:45:05
In reply to Re: How safe is SAM-E-to Ron, posted by mdertinger on March 6, 2002, at 8:33:42
I think Costco on-line has it the cheapest, but you have to be a member. Nature Made 200 mg tablets, 80 count, are $46.
beardy : )>
Posted by Ron Hill on March 6, 2002, at 13:56:28
In reply to Re: How safe is SAM-E-to Ron, posted by mdertinger on March 6, 2002, at 8:33:33
> Where do you buy your SAM-e? What brands do you recommend? I was at my grocery store and I found 20/200 mg tablets were $35!!!As Beardedlady has already said, Costco sells 80 of the 200 mg Nature Made brand SAM-e tablets for about $48 in their stores. This is the brand I am currently using and I buy it at Costco.
> Have you found a better deal on the internet?
I have found better prices on the internet, and I plan to get my next order online. Enter the term "SAM-e" in your favorite search engine and shop around. Make sure you stay with good name brands. Here is a couple of paragraphs that discuss what to look for when purchasing SAM-e followed by a link to the complete article:
--------
Remember in the supplement industry there are no standardizations at this point. The government hasn't made requirements for supplement manufacturers to maintain. You want to get your supplements from a reputable company. When it comes to SAM-e, there's a special type. One form is 1,4-butane-disulfonate and that is the Actimet form of SAM-e, and that's the golden standard for the SAM-e dietary supplements. Actimet SAM-e is manufactured solely by BASF Pharma in Milan, Italy. If you know you're getting a SAM-e brand that has this 1,4-butane-disulfonate, you know you're getting a reliable source. In this country, there are only four companies which are entitled to sell this brand: Puritan's Pride, Vitamin Shop, GNC and Nature Made. I also know that you can purchase this brand in nationwide stores like CVS, Wal-Mart, Costco and you can find some of these on the Internet, like www.Puritan.com.The Actimet SAM-e is much more stable and less sensitive to heat and destruction. It has a shelf life of three years whereas Tosylat form of SAM-e which is not so good, breaks down within three months.
http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/1700.50735
---------------
Having said all that, please note that the Costco store in my town only stocks the Nature Made brand in the tosylate form and, therefore, this is the form I have been using. The tosylate form has worked great for me but I plan to buy the 1,4-butane-disulfonate form via the internet next time.
Best wishes with your Dad!
-- Ron
Posted by sue doe on March 7, 2002, at 7:26:24
In reply to Re: How safe is SAM-E » mdertinger, posted by Ron Hill on March 1, 2002, at 13:19:47
Sam-E looks like it is worth a try. But believe me I won't try anything until I am certain that ALL previous meds are out of my systom.
I am beginning my fifth day without my effexor. I had cut down on it until I quit.
I am observing my mood-swings, brain-zaps, dizziness, etc. Trying to be an outside observer.
I want to know the "natural" me, learning new ways to cope with stress. Stress has always been the culprit, causing me to go "hay-wire". Babble is my medication. I hope everyone will allow me to continue babbling!Sue Doe (Nym)
Posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2002, at 11:30:29
In reply to Thanks for the Sam-E Links, posted by sue doe on March 7, 2002, at 7:26:24
Posted by Bill L on March 7, 2002, at 12:51:25
In reply to Re: How safe is SAM-E-to Ron, posted by mdertinger on March 6, 2002, at 8:33:42
I agree with the others that the best price for NatureMade is Costco. I forgot who said that this is not the most stable form but I know that NatureMade used to be the 1,4,butyl whatever form which is the most stable. I'm surprised if they changed to Tostylate. You should double check that. Dr.Richard Brown, who is a SAM-e expert, recommends NatureMade.
Many people with severe depression need 1200 to 1600 mg per day of SAM-e. Dr Brown recommends starting at 400 mg. Dr. Brown said that of his patients with depression who take SAM-e, most of them use SAM-e along with a prescription AD.
Posted by mdertinger on March 7, 2002, at 13:00:18
In reply to Thanks for the Sam-E Links, posted by sue doe on March 7, 2002, at 7:26:24
> Sam-E looks like it is worth a try. But believe me I won't try anything until I am certain that ALL previous meds are out of my systom.
> I am beginning my fifth day without my effexor. I had cut down on it until I quit.
> I am observing my mood-swings, brain-zaps, dizziness, etc. Trying to be an outside observer.
> I want to know the "natural" me, learning new ways to cope with stress. Stress has always been the culprit, causing me to go "hay-wire". Babble is my medication. I hope everyone will allow me to continue babbling!
>
> Sue Doe (Nym)Sue - AD medication is supposed to make you feel like the "healthy you". I wish you luck in getting off meds, but remember, if you have a significant chemical imbalance, no amount of de-stressing will make you feel better.
When I was a child and young teen, I was a confident, happy, outgoing kid. Once I started alcohol, drugs, and puberty hit, my chemical balance was altered. I struggled with feeling of low self esteem, low energy, blues, anxiety for 15 years until I tried AD's. During those 15 years, I went to a talk therapist once a week, and never felt better, even after learning de-stressing, anxiety control tips. I use them today in conjunction with meds.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 7, 2002, at 13:56:16
In reply to Re: How safe is SAM-E-to Ron, posted by Bill L on March 7, 2002, at 12:51:25
> I agree with the others that the best price for NatureMade is Costco. I forgot who said that this is not the most stable form but I know that NatureMade used to be the 1,4,butyl whatever form which is the most stable. I'm surprised if they changed to Tostylate. You should double check that. Dr.Richard Brown, who is a SAM-e expert, recommends NatureMade.
Bill,All I can tell you is that the primary ingredient listed on the side of the Nature Made SAM-e box that I purchased at the local (Boise, ID USA) Costco is S-adenosylmethionine Tosylate Disulfate.
-- Ron
Posted by sue doe on March 7, 2002, at 21:55:38
In reply to Re: Thanks for the Sam-E Links, posted by mdertinger on March 7, 2002, at 13:00:18
>
>
> Sue - AD medication is supposed to make you feel like the "healthy you". I wish you luck in getting off meds, but remember, if you have a significant chemical imbalance, no amount of de-stressing will make you feel better.
>
> Day five, med free has ended. I know I probably will find the same old imbalance when the meds are out of my system. but this time I want to find new ways to deal with it. I just have a need to know.
wish me luck. Sue Doe (Nym)
Posted by mdertinger on March 8, 2002, at 7:41:13
In reply to Still, I want to know who I was!, posted by sue doe on March 7, 2002, at 21:55:38
So how long have you taken AD's? I can really remember the depression days, (the last bout was Sept-Oct 2001. I had been off medication almost 1 year because I was pregnant). I like to think my behavior since my taking AD's is much like when I was 11-12 years old. Well adjusted and self-confident.
I do wish you luck.. there are days when I too image being drug free, when I worry about the long term effect of taking AD's for 30-40 years. But more often I worry about terrorists blowing up all the Pharmacutical companies and not being able get AD's. (Hmmm... now I'm paranoid!!)
Posted by sue doe on March 8, 2002, at 8:16:34
In reply to Re: Still, I want to know who I was!, posted by mdertinger on March 8, 2002, at 7:41:13
I do wish you luck.. there are days when I too image being drug free, when I worry about the long term effect of taking AD's for 30-40 years.
Thanks for keeping me true, I spent the summer of 2000 in the hospital. This was after my husband had spent 2 years in a constant drunk, staying always with his mother who lives next door. I watched a successful business collapse, and my healthy children lose heart. When they put me in I have been quite paranoid, interpreting everything as part of some grand scheme. I was put on depakote. In fall of 2001 I went to work for awhile and enrolled in college (finishing a twenty-year stagnant degree). All the time I had been gaining weight. I switched to effexor because my brother is successful with it, and so is his son.
Now I am feeling depressed again, and I thought I was eating compulsively on effexor. Look at me now! I've already hit the doughnut trail! Here I go again. I've never enjoyed being fat. I hate it. Before I give up and go back on meds I am going to try good old fashioned "self-control". Eating is a self-hate response. Day six, and I'm slipping a bit.
By the way, I also had a complete hysterectomy in 1998 (notice the root word is same as hysterical). --Why do we give our docs so much liberty? And I have been taking thyroxin since 1986 when I collapsed a previous time.
Sue Doe (nym)
P.S. Fake name, helps to develop alternative personalities! Schizos are said not to have multiple personalities after all. Maybe we just need extra scapegoats!
Posted by mdertinger on March 8, 2002, at 8:51:40
In reply to Day 6, loosing confidence already? » mdertinger, posted by sue doe on March 8, 2002, at 8:16:34
If your already feeling down, it may not be the meds. It will probably take at least 2 weeks for them to totally clear your system.
Did you try the lowest dose possible of Effexor before deciding to stop your meds? I think you can even split Effexor pills.
If you exercise, you can both control the eating thing and pump some natural endorphins into you body. Even a 1/2 hour walk will have an effect on your mood and metabolism.
Your past history sounds much worse than mine. At least I have a husband who is caring and understands depression. It makes it hard for people to understand why I have depression, like my life is so great, I shouldn't have this disease. But they don't understand the whole chemical/physical side of depression.
Just remember what's most important to you... your mental stability and your children.
Get some support from your brother and make time to take care of yourself!Are you working now? How are you paying the bills?
Again, work can give you a focus, which is critical to mental health. But I know, when your really down, it's impossible to work.Good Luck!
P.S. I gotta disable my browser... I am soooo behind in my work!
Posted by beardedlady on March 8, 2002, at 9:43:54
In reply to Day 6, loosing confidence already? » mdertinger, posted by sue doe on March 8, 2002, at 8:16:34
Sue:
There's much truth to the hysterectomy thing. It ain't funny! But it's backward, I believe. They started taking out women's reproductive organs to cure them of their hysteria, the thinking being that women's hormones made them too tough to live with. In essence, they were removing the hysteria; hence, the hysteria-ectomy. (Somewhere in the deep recesses of my brain, where I keep crap I don't use, was that tidbit of info. I think I remember it from a linguistics article.)
I don't think eating is a self-hate response in every case. When my anxiety is high, I can't eat and will lose four pounds overnight, just from fretting the night away and not sleeping. And I won't eat the next day, and I'll lose another two. My med friend, Serzone, keeps me hungry all the time. Sometimes I eat because I like the taste of food better than I like the idea of self-control.
But I started Weight Watchers last night so I can remember how to manage my food.
Sue, are you taking any vitamins? I think the B complex I take makes me feel kind of good and healthy. And the exercise thing is so true. Lots of depressed folks (with chemical depression, rather than sufferers of abuse and stuff) find it tough to do, but it's hard not to love those endorphins once you get started.
I hope you can do this without meds, if that's what you want. But my greater hope is that you feel good. And if you have to use a med or med combo to do it, so what? Asthmatics need meds to live. Folks with hypertension need meds to live. Diabetics need meds to live. Ain't no biggie. The key is finding the ones that let you feel like the you you'd like to feel like!
Take care, Sue.
beardy : )>
Posted by sue doe on March 8, 2002, at 9:58:29
In reply to Re: Day 6, loosing confidence already? » sue doe, posted by beardedlady on March 8, 2002, at 9:43:54
But I started Weight Watchers last night so I can remember how to manage my food.
>
> Sue, are you taking any vitamins? I think the B complex I take makes me feel kind of good and healthy.
>
>I have B vitamins, omega 3's and plan to order some celtic sea salt. This will be my next step. In the meantime. Self-control, self-control, self-control....
Posted by mdertinger on March 8, 2002, at 14:09:37
In reply to Thanks :) and mdertinger keep with me PLEASE! » beardedlady, posted by sue doe on March 8, 2002, at 9:58:29
I'm teaching a class next week in Dulles,VA, so I'll only be reading email at night (on a dial-up yuk). Post me when you need to talk.
Posted by Sue Doe on March 15, 2002, at 6:09:26
In reply to Re: Thanks :) and mdertinger keep with me PLEASE!, posted by mdertinger on March 8, 2002, at 14:09:37
> I'm teaching a class next week in Dulles,VA, so I'll only be reading email at night (on a dial-up yuk). Post me when you need to talk.
I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner but I didn't want to cause you excessive concern while you were "out". I'm now on day 15!
What class are you teaching? I, too, love to teach. And I've gone back to school to get my certificate!
Posted by mdertinger on March 18, 2002, at 8:27:58
In reply to RE: I'm teaching a class, post me when you need » mdertinger, posted by Sue Doe on March 15, 2002, at 6:09:26
> > I'm teaching a class next week in Dulles,VA, so I'll only be reading email at night (on a dial-up yuk). Post me when you need to talk.
>
> I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner but I didn't want to cause you excessive concern while you were "out". I'm now on day 15!
> What class are you teaching? I, too, love to teach. And I've gone back to school to get my certificate!So what's up! How is day 18? I'm feeling rather crappy. I dosed down on my Prozac hoping the Wellbrutrin would work well enough. I was really hoping my sex drive might return. But, no, I started feeling depressed about 7 days after I dosed down. I'm sure the work stress and traveling didn't help. I'm getting feelings of not loving my 6 month old daughter. She really is a difficult baby and my first child, a boy, is such an angel. I'm hoping that returning to my higher dose of Prozac will change those feelings.
You wouldn't believe what happened during my trip!!
After spending weeks preparing the materials for this class, I lost my voice on the second day of training!! I think that started me on my decline. I had to have a co-worker talk for me while I pointed to windows/fields on the screen. I work for a software company and I write the training for their software products. Then I teach to customers that buy the software. If you like teaching, adult/technical training pays way better than childhood education.Tell what's up with you? Are you working or reading email from a home account?
Posted by SueDoeN on March 20, 2002, at 22:44:21
In reply to RE: I'm teaching a class, post me when you need, posted by mdertinger on March 18, 2002, at 8:27:58
.........I'm getting feelings of not loving my 6 month old daughter. She really is a difficult baby and my first child, a boy, is such an angel. I'm hoping that returning to my higher dose of Prozac will change those feelings.........
Please tell me the name of your six month old daughter, I’d like to know more. I don’t know whether you have read my posts about my family, but I have 9 children. I have learned, too late for the oldest ones, that some of the “difficulties” I experienced with my children and still do are possibly childhood manifestations of the problems I have (i.e. “mental illness”). Through this new lense of understanding I am presently looking back to my parents, aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters, and nieces and nephews, especially, my youngest children who are still at home.
With the oldest I took constant criticism for their “excessiveness”. Even I assumed that I must be a bad mother, and as a consequence I can now see that I made many parenting errors. I would like to talk more, if possible, about your little girl. Also, are you nursing her? My thyroid went topsy-turvy when I was nursing. Now I know what I could have done differently, didn’t know then, just suffered.
I would enjoy hearing more about your “type of teaching”. My life’s goal is to discover more and learn how to help children with “mental illness”. Although I hate that word. Our minds are not “ill”, they just work differently. In fact, those of us who have these “psycho” problems are some of the most creative and intelligent, articulate, etc., people I know. Have you noticed the posts here? I would like to get to know you better, and some of the babblers here have taken up my invitation to write me an email. We are trying to find additional ways to chat with each other besides just the PS center.
I have the luxury of being home, for this space in time. I am homeschooling my 8 year-old daughter, my 6 year-old son and my 4 year-old son. My 11 year old daughter stays home every-other-day. My 13 year old son goes to school but is being taught through an “individualized education problem” which is sponsored by the federal government. He had some serious learning problems, yet he is highly intelligent. He told me today that one of his teachers told another student to choose a different friend because my son (Larry) was not very intelligent! WHAT A STUPID TEACHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Larry has SO MUCH TO GIVE!!!!!!!!!! And she can’t even see it!
Anyway, I hope you’ll write. My address is SueDoeN@aol.com
Posted by Karina on June 17, 2002, at 8:24:58
In reply to Re: How safe is SAM-E-to Ron » mdertinger, posted by Ron Hill on March 6, 2002, at 13:56:28
hi Ron Hill
I have noticed that Nutralife SAM-e is cheaper than Naturemade. I have always taken Naturemade with good results. Nutralife has tosylate in it. Naturemade is supposed to have 1-4 butane disulfonate in it. Is there a difference? Should I try nutralife?
Presently i came out of a major episode by taking only 400 mg of SAM-e and taking double the recommended dose of St. Johns wort ie 1800 mg daily. St johns wort works against contraception however.
i am convinced that SAM-e is the real miracle supplement and i am going to take it in the future. Have you come across any studies that say it is not advisable to take SAM-e over a long period of time? i suspect i will be on this stuff for a while since this is my second major depression.i think i can get away with taking 3 200 mg tablets of SAM-e per day.
I am Canadian. that means i can only order a 3 month supply from the states.What the heck is a 3 month supply of Sam-e? costco won't deliver to canada. i ordered from healthydeal.com. I heard www.puritan.com is a cheaper place to get Naturemade SAM-e.
I am taking 2000 mcg of B12 daily and 200 mg of B6 as well as 1 mg of folic acid.
Your comments are appreciated
with thanks
Karina
This is the end of the thread.
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