![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 21, 2002, at 16:10:56
In reply to I've been scared into quitting!, posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 15:11:38
This is a bullshit journal. I have never jeard of 'The medical Journal of Australia'. It isn't even rated on the impact factor list, which means it is never citated. ONLY TRUST ARTICLE FROM SERIOUS JOURNALS !!!
There is no problem to get off 0.25 or to stay on it. I don't see the problem. Klonopin 0.25mg/day is LOW. I'm on 4mg/day, I have been on 6mg/day. I stopped a couple of times, and started it all again. The best way to stop is to add Tegretol first, and than take the dose lower slowly. Use clonidine for the withdrawal symptoms. Use melatonin for the insomnia. That's about it.
Why do you take Klonopin is such low a dose ? Does it do anything ?!
Jimmy
>
> currently take .25mg of Klonopin a day. And am stopping now and forever.
>
>
> Treatment of benzodiazepine dependence
>
>
> The Medical Journal of Australia, Vol. 144, May 26, 1986
>
> K. Jean Lennane, FRACP, DPM,
> Director, Drug and Alcohol Services,
> Rozelle and Gladesville Hospitals,
> The Rozelle Hospital, Church Street,
> Leichhardt, NSW 2040.
>
> [Note: Tapering and withdrawal advice, duration of withdrawal, equivalencies etc indicated in this document are not necessarily now considered correct or appropriate. The information in this document is therefore for reference purpose only. – benzo.org.uk]
>
> The first benzodiazepine agent was introduced in 1960. The first report of probable dependence appeared in 1961(1) and the introduction of newer and "better" benzodiazepine drugs over the next 24 years has been followed equally promptly by reports of dependence problems.(2-5) Because of the weight of evidence that now implicates all known benzodiazepine drugs, the UN Commission on Narcotic Drugs last year imposed the same international regulations on them as apply to narcotic and other known dependence-producing drugs.(6) However, most doctors in Australia seem unaware that benzodiazepine agents can cause dependence at all, and are continuing to prescribe them at the rate of 6 million PBS prescriptions (not including hospital and repatriation benefits) per year (Assistant Director-General, Pharmaceutical Branch, Commonwealth Department of Health, personal communication) often for doubtful indications such as dysmenorrhoea, tinnitus, dizzy spells, postoperative shock, backache, neck pain and headaches.(7)
>
> Dependence
>
> As were all new sedative/tranquillizer drugs, benzodiazepine agents were initially launched as "non-habit forming". However, they appeared rapidly on the illegal drug scene. Benzodiazepine abuse has been reported extensively among heroin and methadone users.(8.9) and also among persons with alcohol dependence.(10) There were regular reports of individual cases who developed dependence problems.(10,12) Reports were published of withdrawal problems in neonates who had been exposed to benzodiazepine agents in utero.(13,14) More recently, a substantial body of work in animals has been collected; no difficulty seems to exist in creating benzodiazepine dependence in rats, cats and baboons. (15-17) Finally, in the last three to four years, there has been an increasing number of reports of dependence in groups of humans, indicating a widespread problem among normal users.(7,18-20) This has many features in common with dependence on other sedative/tranquillizer drugs, and some distinctive features.
>
> One distinctive feature is the frequent development of dependence without classic tolerance and, therefore, without increasing dosage. While classic tolerance can and does occur, particularly in users with a history of dependence on other drugs, it is relatively uncommon.(21,22) However, dependence while taking normal doses – which is reported only spasmodically in "drug-scene" users,(9,10) neonates(13,1) and individuals(23) – seems from studies of groups of patients to be very common. A high proportion of long-term normal-dose users are physically dependent and will suffer significant symptoms if the drug is withdrawn. Two studies by Tyrer et al. suggest that the frequency of significant dependence is between 27% and 45%.'(18,19) Owen and Tyrer suggest that the true figure, after correcting for "pseudo-withdrawal" reactions, is around 30% in unselected normal dose users.(24)
>
> However, it is suggested that the shorter-acting benzodiazepine agents (for example, oxazepam, lorazepam and temazepam) have a greater potential to cause dependence than do the longer-acting ones (such as diazepam and nitrazepam).(18,24) Since the study which led Owen and Tyrer to the prevalence figure of 30% was of patients who were withdrawing from diazepam, the figure for the Australian population, where short-acting benzodiazepine drugs make up half the market (Assistant Director-General, Pharmaceutical Branch, Commonwealth Department of Health, personal communication), may well be nearer to 45%.
>
> "Long-term" usage in Tyrer et al.'s studies was considered to be usage for three months or longer. The Committee on the Review of Medicines states that the tranquillizing effects of benzodiazepine drugs do not persist beyond three to four months.(21) This suggests that tolerance of the limited type that occurs with benzodiazepine agents (that is, loss of the effect of the usual dose) must be a usual occurrence at about that point. The frequency of dependence may increase up to about 12 months of use, but there is no evidence that longer usage increases it further.(22)
>
> However, dependence can occur in less than three months. Occasional patients particularly those who have been dependent on other drugs – give anecdotal reports of almost instantaneous dependence on benzodiazepine drugs, and many such patients develop obvious dependence in five to 10 days. Withdrawal symptoms have been noted in patients who have received benzodiazepine agents for three weeks.(25) Animal studies show that the acute administration of, for example, diazepam leads to a rapid increase in brain benzodiazepine receptor density,(26) and the development of withdrawal symptoms after as few as seven days.(17)
>
> Dependence on the hypnotic effect occurs even more rapidly. Studies in humans consistently show withdrawal symptoms of disturbed steep and daytime dysphoria after seven days of benzodiazepine administration.(27,28) Rebound insomnia may also occur acutely, even during the first night of administration of very short-acting benzodiazepine agents. Similar rebound anxiety may also occur during the day.29,30)
>
> Therefore, it seems that the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms if patients try to decrease or stop benzodiazepine agents is keeping up to half the patients taking the tablets. Major features of the withdrawal syndrome are anxiety and insomnia. Since these are the usual reasons for the prescription of a benzodiazepine drug in the first place, patients and their doctors may see the emergence of such symptoms as justification for continuing therapy, without considering withdrawal as a possibility.
>
> In fact, the only way to differentiate initial withdrawal symptoms from a relapse into anxiety is by persisting with the withdrawal. Withdrawal symptoms will have largely subsided by three to four weeks, whereas anxiety will persist or worsen.(24)
>
> The withdrawal syndrome
>
> Benzodiazepine withdrawal has been described in detail by many authors.(5,18,19,24) Many symptoms are typical of the withdrawal of any sedative or tranquillizer drug. Grand mal seizures(1,4) and/or delirium(12) may occur if the drug is stopped suddenly. In 1982, eight of 200 patients who were admitted to the McKinnon Unit for detoxification, primarily from benzodiazepine drugs, had one or more seizures, an four had delirium – an incidence of 4% and 2%, respectively. This appears to indicate a slightly higher risk of seizures on abrupt withdrawal than with alcohol, and a somewhat lower risk of delirium. In these, as in other reported cases, the dosage has varied from a normal dosage (that is, 45-60 mg a day of oxazepam) to very high (2000 mg a day).
>
> Delirium differs from that which occurs with alcohol in that patients do not appear toxic, are pale rather than flushed, and are normotensive. They tend to look blank rather than perplexed, and while they may be extremely paranoid (often experiencing interesting hallucinations by way of nonexistent radios and television screens), they will often give no indication of this in their outward behaviour. The first indication of a problem may be an attempt to jump out of a window to escape.
>
> Delirium and seizures, which are uncommon even with abrupt withdrawal, do not occur when benzodiazepine drugs are withdrawn gradually. However, a long list of other symptoms do. The most detailed description is that given by Ashton.(7) Anxiety, insomnia, irritability, tremulousness, gastrointestinal disturbances and dysphoria occur much as in the withdrawal of any tranquillizer or sedative drug. Other symptoms appear to be more specific. Perceptual distortions occur in all modalities. Sounds may be unduly loud and patients may hear non-existent thumps or tunes. Sights are distorted and may be misinterpreted, with occasional brief visual hallucinations. The most common complaint is of feelings of unreality and depersonalization, and of seeing "through a veil". Paraesthesiae are common, as are distortions of smell and taste. Paranoid thoughts and feelings occur frequently. Pain and stiffness in various parts of the body, especially the face, are common, with muscular spasms which may appear as myoclonic jerks, or as local tremors and fasciculation. There may be difficulty in walking. Ashton also reports a 'flu-like illness in 10 of her 12 patients that was reminiscent of narcotic withdrawal, and also menorrhagia and breast pain. Marked weight loss is common.
>
> The symptoms can be exceedingly unpleasant and distressing.(7,23) What makes withdrawal so bad, apart from the perceptual disturbances which make patients feel they are going mad, is that it goes on or so long. With other sedative or tranquillizing drugs, return to a normal sleeping pattern is likely to take some weeks after withdrawal, and return to full normal health takes some months, but specific withdrawal symptoms are over within a few days. Benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms typically last at least four weeks.(24) Ashton's study suggests that many symptoms, though improved by four weeks, may continue intermittently for months.(7) It is clear that patients who are dependent and want to withdraw may face a very unpleasant illness – in most cases, very much worse than the condition for which they were prescribed benzodiazepine drugs in the first place.
>
> Mechanism of dependence
>
> The mechanism that causes dependence on benzodiazepine drugs resembles that of other sedative/tranquillizer drugs.(31) The effect appears to be mediated by specific receptors(15,26) which enhance the transmission of GABA, a central nervous system inhibitory neurotransmitter substance that acts as a tranquillizer agent.(32) Experience of the long succession of drugs that have been introduced as "non-addictive" should already have told us that which the work on opiate and benzodiazepine receptors now makes clear: any drug which relieves pain or anxiety centrally does so by occupying a specific receptor site. The site exists for an endogenous substance which resembles the drug. If the drug occupies the receptor site for more than a few days, the body will reduce or stop production of the endogenous substance which is being consistently displaced. The number of receptor sites may also increase. If the drug is then withdrawn, there will be nothing available to fill the receptor site until the body can return to its normal level of production – a process that with most drugs takes several days, but with benzodiazepine agents, for reasons not yet explained, takes much longer. Uninhibited firing from empty receptor sites causes the withdrawal symptoms. (The perceptual disturbances may have a more complex explanation.(33)
>
> Treatment of dependence
>
> Treatment of benzodiazepine dependence at present is unsatisfactory. There is no way of relieving the withdrawal symptoms to a degree that is acceptable to many patients.(7,24,34) Therefore, they may be stuck with their problem, the only solution being to keep on taking the tablets. This can hardly be considered good medicine, and there are other difficulties. One is the risk of accumulation in elderly patients, who may develop apathy and confusion, that are attributed erroneously to dementia.(35,36) Another is the risk that withdrawal symptoms may develop inconveniently and dangerously after admission to hospital for other reasons (for example, surgery). Yet a third is the risk of permanent brain damage, analogous to alcohol-related damage, which it seems may occur with long-term usage.(37)
>
> However, the most pressing reason for trying to cease the administration of benzodiazepine drugs is that highlighted by Ashton.(7) There is a period of a few days to a few months during which the benzodiazepine drug has an active effect.(21) A period of months to years then occurs when there is no longer any active effect, but the drug in normal dosage prevents the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms. Some patients then progress to the "problem" phase, when withdrawal symptoms start to occur although they are still taking the medication. The great majority of such patients do not attempt to compensate for this tolerance by increasing their dosage, and this phase may continue for months or years – until someone realizes that the benzodiazepine drug is actually making the patient ill. Any or all of the withdrawal symptoms that have been described already may occur, daily or many times a day, as long as benzodiazepine use continues. Three are particularly common: disturbed sleep (nightmares, frequent waking and insomnia); anxiety or panic attacks that occur when the next dose is nearly due; and agoraphobia. Eleven of Ashton's 12 patients had developed agoraphobia, and this resolved with no treatment but benzodiazepine withdrawal in all but two. Patients who keep on taking the tablets must be carefully monitored for the appearance of such "neurotic" symptoms, and the doctor must aware, if they appear, that the answer is not more medication, but benzodiazepine withdrawal.
>
> How should one treat patients who are dependent? This really means: What should we do about patients who have been receiving benzodiazepine drugs for more than three months? Since the benzodiazepine agent will no longer be effective,(21) and those who are not already dependent may in due course become so, the drugs should be ceased in all such patients. Over half will not be dependent and will be able to stop without difficulty. However, to minimize the risk of fits or delirium, withdrawal should be gradual.(18)
>
> Management of withdrawal
>
> If patients are drug dependent and develop significant symptoms, treatment becomes complicated and unsatisfactory, since attempts to alleviate the symptoms have in general been unimpressive.(7,18,19,22,23) The following suggestions are an amalgam of these experiences.
>
> Discuss with the patient the need to withdraw, and offer continued support throughout the withdrawal period. If the patient refuses, bring up the topic with every repeat prescription thereafter.
>
> If the patient agrees, decide on a mutually acceptable timetable. This will often be the reduction by one-sixth of the total dose every week, starting with half the lunch-time dose, then half the breakfast dose, half the night dose, then the remaining lunch, breakfast and night doses in that order.
>
> See the patient at least weekly to reinforce the dosage reduction and check for the occurrence of withdrawal symptoms. Over 50% will succeed without problems of any note, but should be seen at least weekly for four weeks after the last dose, as withdrawal symptoms may appear for the first time at that stage.
>
> If significant symptoms occur, or if the patient is already suffering from withdrawal symptoms when first seen, review the benzodiazepine drug that is involved. Withdrawal in dependent patients tends to be more difficult and unpleasant with short-acting benzodiazepine agents. Therefore, patients on short-acting drugs should be changed to long-acting drugs (usually diazepam) substituting an equivalent dose over three to four days. (The approximate equivalent of 5 mg of diazepam is 15 mg of oxazepam, 0.5 mg of lorazepam and 10 mg of temazepam.)
>
> Once you know the patient is going to develop symptoms, he or she has to decide whether they want to experience more severe symptoms for a shorter time, or less severe symptoms for a longer time, which seems to be the choice. Reduction of the dose by one sixth every three days will achieve the former course, by one-sixth every two weeks the latter course.
>
> Continue on the timetable chosen and see the patient twice a week during withdrawal and for four weeks after it is completed. Offer support, explanation and reassurance throughout. Refer the patient to a support group if this is available. Drug therapy is not very helpful, but propranolol (40-160 mg a day) may relieve some symptoms. If insomnia is persistent and distressing, non-benzodiazepine hypnotic agents can be used on alternate nights for one to two weeks (for example, promethazine, 75-100 mg; chlormethiazole, 384 mg; butobarbitone, 100-200 mg). Clonidine might be expected to help, as it does in narcotic withdrawal, but the evidence so far is unimpressive.(7) Frank paranoia may be controlled by small doses of antipsychotic agents, such as haloperidol; however, this may make other symptoms worse.
>
> If outpatient withdrawal is intolerable, the patient should be referred for inpatient withdrawal.
>
> If both outpatient and inpatient withdrawal fail because the patient is unable to tolerate it, there is no option but to return to full dosage of a long-acting benzodiazepine agent and to increase the dose if this does not control symptoms. In due course the dose may have to be increased again and again. Withdrawal will have to be advised and discussed again with each new prescription.
>
> Patients who withdraw without problems should be advised against any but very occasional use of benzodiazepine agents in future; patients who develop withdrawal symptoms should be advised strongly against benzodiazepine use of any kind.
>
> Prevention
>
> Since withdrawal may be so distressing and difficult, prevention is all-important. There are, in my opinion, very few indications for benzodiazepine use; they may be used in insomnia caused by acute stress, night-shift work change, or air travel. However, we must recognize even here there may be a price to pay in drowsiness the next day, with adverse effects on cognitive performance and driving,(28) and possibly an increased mortality in susceptible patients.(38) Their use even in the treatment of anxiety is problematical. They will make the often-associated underlying depression worse and, according to at least one expert, are unnecessary.(39) A particular difficulty is that the patients most likely to develop dependence problems are those with the personality characteristics that are associated with anxiety and insomnia.(22) That is, the patients with the clearest psychological indications for benzodiazepine therapy are those who are most likely to get into trouble with them. Therefore, other methods of anxiety management, such as relaxation and hypnosis, should be the treatment of choice.
>
> There seems to be little therapeutic justification for the long-term administration of benzodiazepine drugs, apart from their use in some forms of epilepsy. It is my personal opinion that it would be helpful if the profession as a whole could accept the evidence and alter their prescribing habits.
>
> Suggestions for achieving this are:
>
> Never prescribe benzodiazepine drugs for anyone with a history of dependence on any drug, including alcohol. (This does not refer to their emergency use, for example, the intravenous administration of diazepam in status epilepticus.)
>
> Be very cautious about prescribing benzodiazepine drugs for anyone with a family history of drug or alcohol dependence.
>
> Do not prescribe regular benzodiazepine therapy for periods of longer than five days. (This means prescribing fewer than the 50 tablets allowed at present by the PBS.)
>
> Warn the patient of the likelihood of rebound insomnia.
>
> Warn the patient of the possibility of dependence.
>
> Include this warning in the instructions on the bottle.
>
> Primum non nocere is an excellent precept, and is often the best we can do. It is unfortunate that we sometimes fail to achieve even that.
>
> References
>
> Hollister LE, Motzembecker FP, Degan RO. Withdrawal reactions from chlordiazepoxide (Librium). Psychopharmacologia 1961; 2: 63-68.
>
> De la Fuente JR, Rosenbaum AH, Martin HR, Niven RG. Lorazepam-related withdrawal seizures. Mayo Clin Proc 1980; 55: 190-192.
>
> Gordon EB. Addiction to diazepam (Valium). Br Med J 1967; 1: 112.
>
> Ratna L. Addiction to temazepam. Br Med J 1981; 282: 1837-1838.
>
> Selig J. A possible oxazepam abstinence syndrome. JAMA 1966; 198: 951-952.
>
> Anonymous. UN Commission on Narcotic Drugs. Benzodiazepine and pentazocine scheduled under convention on psychotropic substances. Lancet 1984; 1: 637.
>
> Ashton H. Benzodiazepine withdrawal: an unfinished story. Br Med J 1984; 288: 1135-1140.
>
> Woody GE, O'Brien CP, Greenstein R. Misuse and abuse of diazepam: an increasingly common medical problem. Int J Addict 1975; 10: 843-848.
>
> Stitzer MC, Griffiths RR, McLellan AT, Grabowski J. Diazepam use among methadone maintenance patients: patterns and dosages. Drug Alcohol Depend 1981; 8: 189-199.
>
> Schuster CC, Humphries RH. Benzodiazepine dependency in alcoholics. Conn Med 1981; 45:11-13.
>
> Stewart RB, Salem RB, Springer PK. A case report of lorazepam withdrawal. Am J Psychiatry 1980; 137: 1113-1114.
>
> Chandora DB. Delayed diazepam withdrawal syndrome: a case of auditory and visual hallucinations and seizures. J Med Assoc Ga 1980; 69: 769-770.
>
> Athinarayanan P, Pierog SH, Nigam SK, Glass L. Chlordiazepoxide withdrawal in the neonate. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1976; 124: 212-213.
>
> Rementeria JL, Bhatt K. Withdrawal symptoms in neonates from intrauterine exposure to diazepam. J Pediatr 1977; 90: 123-126.
>
> Martin WR, McNicholas LF, Cherian S. Diazepam and phenobarbital dependence in the rat. Life Sci 1982; 31: 721-730.
>
> Rosenberg HC, Chin TH. An antagonist induced benzodiazepine abstinence syndrome. Eur J Pharmacol 1982; 81: 153-157.
>
> Lukas SE, Griffiths RR. Precipitated withdrawal by a benzodiazepine receptor antagonist after 7 days of diazepam. Science 1982; 217: 1161-I163.
>
> Tyrer P, Owen R, Dawlin S. Gradual withdrawal of diazepam after long-term therapy. Lancet 1983; 1: 1402-1406.
>
> Tyrer P, Rutherford D, Huggett T. Benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms and propranolol. Lancet 1981; 1: 520-522.
>
> Winokur A, Rickiels K, Snyder PJ, Schatz NJ. Withdrawal reaction from long-term, low-dosage administration of diazepam. A double-blind, placebo-controlled case study. Arch Gen Psychiatry 1980; 37: 101-105.
>
> Committee on the Review of Medicines. Systematic review of the benzodiazepine. Br Med J 1980; 280: 910-912.
>
> Tyrer P, Sievewright N. Identification and management of benzodiazepine dependence. Postgrad Med J 1984; 60(suppl 2): 41-46.
>
> Khan A, Joyce P, Jones AV. Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndromes. NZ Med J 1980; 92: 94-96.
Posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 16:48:35
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting!, posted by jimmygold70 on January 21, 2002, at 16:10:56
> This is a bullshit journal. I have never jeard of 'The medical Journal of Australia'. It isn't even rated on the impact factor list, which means it is never citated. ONLY TRUST ARTICLE FROM SERIOUS JOURNALS !!!
>
> There is no problem to get off 0.25 or to stay on it. I don't see the problem. Klonopin 0.25mg/day is LOW. I'm on 4mg/day, I have been on 6mg/day. I stopped a couple of times, and started it all again. The best way to stop is to add Tegretol first, and than take the dose lower slowly. Use clonidine for the withdrawal symptoms. Use melatonin for the insomnia. That's about it.
>
> Why do you take Klonopin is such low a dose ? Does it do anything ?!
>
> Jimmy________________________________________________
"Does it do anything ?!"
Apparently not enough as reading that FREAKED Me out!...
I seem to get freaked out like that and then unable to calm myself..
Scott
Posted by spike4848 on January 21, 2002, at 16:50:35
In reply to I've been scared into quitting!, posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 15:11:38
>
> currently take .25mg of Klonopin a day. And am stopping now and forever.
>
> Treatment of benzodiazepine dependence
>
> The Medical Journal of Australia, Vol. 144, May 26, 1986Hey There,
Yes ... I see the article's point. Let's also take away all of the asthmatic's inhalers and all of the diabetic's insulin. It would be ashame to see them dependent/addicted to medication.
Spike
Posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 17:01:10
In reply to I've been scared into quitting!, posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 15:11:38
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 21, 2002, at 23:43:26
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting! » jimmygold70, posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 16:48:35
So I guess your anxiety is not under control... What meds are you taking ? What have you tried ? I've been trying to fight anxiety for years with only Klonopin being of any help.
Jimmy
Posted by christophrejmc on January 21, 2002, at 23:59:47
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting!, posted by jimmygold70 on January 21, 2002, at 16:10:56
it seems you've gotten this article from "http://benzo.org.uk". Have you taken a look at the rest of this site? Most of their benzo claims range from absurd to disturbing.. They also include anti-Antidepressant propaganda (in addition to some other equally disgusting misinformation that I won't include). They compare benzo's to heroin... < insert some not-so-civil comments here >
-Christophre
Posted by petey on January 22, 2002, at 5:37:21
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting!, posted by christophrejmc on January 21, 2002, at 23:59:47
> it seems you've gotten this article from "http://benzo.org.uk". Have you taken a look at the rest of this site? Most of their benzo claims range from absurd to disturbing.. They also include anti-Antidepressant propaganda (in addition to some other equally disgusting misinformation that I won't include). They compare benzo's to heroin... < insert some not-so-civil comments here >
>
> -ChristophreBenzo org.uk may claim some pretty disturbing stuff, but I wouldn't say it is absurd at all. Maybe this site came into exsistance because of people like me. I am living proof that benzos are not for everybody and that the withdrawal from them can be hell. I am not saying that they "caused" my depression, but they definatley made it worse! I also have had VERY negative experiences with every antidepreeant I have ever taken. Since I have been off all meds., I am feeling better, but I don't feel "myself". I think ,for some people, that theses drugs can do real harm. I have said time and time again that I know these meds. help millions of people but there are SOME who experience negative responses and horrible withdrawal. I am one of them. So I wouldn't be so quick to condemn Benzo.org uk. It just may save someones life! I didn't know what the hell was going on with me until I found that site and this site. I thought that I just was going out of my mind! Then I started reading all the info. I could get my hands on and found so many side-effects and negative reactions to these drugs and slowly started weaning myself from the "culprits". Lo and behold, after some very intense withdrawal, I started to feel better. i am not saying this is the case for everybody, but IT DOES HAPPEN! I just had to be one of the unfortunate ones! Benzos have helped so many people I know, so don't think I'm "bashing" them. I just want to warn people that they CAN cause bad and rare reactions. Sorry if I offended anyone, but these are the facts!Take care and God bless!
Petey
Posted by Thrud on January 22, 2002, at 6:46:55
In reply to I've been scared into quitting!, posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 15:11:38
>
> currently take .25mg of Klonopin a day. And am stopping now and forever.
>Since my panic attacks are never ending unless treated, I have no intention of ever going off my Xanax, so stories of benzo withdrawl never interest me.
If I ever feel well enough to consider cutting the dose then that will be a blessed miracle.
Thrud
Posted by bob on January 22, 2002, at 13:55:23
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting!, posted by petey on January 22, 2002, at 5:37:21
Petey:
I have to agree with you. There is nothing wrong with benzos or ADs for many, many people. However, there are people out there like you and I who have problems with the drugs. I am extremely intolerant of most ADs... they make my life a physical hell. Ironically, though, I've found it impossible to live without them. Benzos on the other hand, aren't bad at all to take for me, but I do get many of the withdrawal symptoms that are described in the UK site (when I try to reduce the med), and the article that was posted from that Australian Journal. Those publishings may be somewhat alarmist, but that doesn't mean that there is truth in some of the things they say.
Posted by bob on January 22, 2002, at 15:09:23
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting! » petey, posted by bob on January 22, 2002, at 13:55:23
Correction from my last post:
"Those publishings may be somewhat alarmist, but that doesn't mean that there is truth in some of the things they say."
...should read...
"Those publications may be somewhat alarmist, but that doesn't mean that there is *no* truth in some of the things they say."
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 22, 2002, at 23:16:19
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting!, posted by jimmygold70 on January 21, 2002, at 23:43:26
Right now Effexor 75, Klonopin .25 PRN and I also take adrafanil without any worsening of anxiety.
Often a wreck!Scott
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 22, 2002, at 23:33:08
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting!, posted by christophrejmc on January 21, 2002, at 23:59:47
ignore previous typo post..
You are quite perceptive as to where I found my anxiety producing article! I didn't realize that group had a mission against benzos.
Scott
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by IsoM on January 23, 2002, at 0:09:11
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting! » jimmygold70, posted by Mr. Scott on January 22, 2002, at 23:16:19
Scott, I hope you don't mind me asking. If you do, just ignore my question.
But I'm curious how long you've taken adrafinil & what sort of effect you notice. I think you already know how much I like it but would really like to find more people who've taken it & what their reactions to it are. I can't assume that everyone will react like I do to it.>
> Right now Effexor 75, Klonopin .25 PRN and I also take adrafanil without any worsening of anxiety.
> Scott
Posted by Elizabeth on January 23, 2002, at 14:59:10
In reply to I've been scared into quitting!, posted by mr.scott on January 21, 2002, at 15:11:38
I don't get it. Why stop your (incredibly low, BTW) dose of clonazepam based on the risk of withdrawal symptoms (which are unlikely if you maintain the same dose, which most people are able to do)?
You knew the risk of dependence when you started taking it, didn't you? There are other medications, such as clonidine, propranolol, and prednisone, that must not be discontinued abruptly. Would you stop taking one of these at a low dose if you read something on the internet about the potential withdrawal reactions?
I hope you're going to be okay. BTW, British doctors and researchers seem to be *much* more conservative about benzos (i.e., benzophobic) than most others (I noticed that the site you got that stuff from is a UK site). It also appears that this site makes some generalizations and twists around the facts. It is important that people who need benzos not be scared away by hysteria on sites like this. As you've seen, this sort of hysteria is usually much more dangerous than the actual effects of the drugs are for most people!
best wishes,
-elizabeth
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 23, 2002, at 21:04:34
In reply to Question About Your Meds » Mr. Scott, posted by IsoM on January 23, 2002, at 0:09:11
I ordered it a long time ago, but only started taking it two weeks ago. I like it a lot, but ran out and had to get a Rx for Provigil while the Adrafanil is en route (start the Provigil tomorrow). The Provigil cost me $290.00 for 60 pills!!! What a frickin rip off! The adrafanil basically makes me wake up a bit and become less depressed and more enthusiastic about life, without the stimulant crash later on or tolerance (that I've noticed so far anyways). I feel a little more like everyone else looks (i know thats not helpful). I guess it sharpens the colors while the Effexor removes the horror.
Best I can put it right now. I think it might make my mouth dry though.
Scott
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 23, 2002, at 23:18:49
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting! » mr.scott, posted by Elizabeth on January 23, 2002, at 14:59:10
> "I don't get it. Why stop your (incredibly low, BTW) dose of clonazepam based on the risk of withdrawal symptoms (which are unlikely if you maintain the same dose, which most people are able to do)?
>
> You knew the risk of dependence when you started taking it, didn't you? There are other medications, such as clonidine, propranolol, and prednisone, that must not be discontinued abruptly. Would you stop taking one of these at a low dose if you read something on the internet about the potential withdrawal reactions?"
>
I would like some confirmation of my diagnosis before I proceed with the first thing that works. All the 'brilliant docs' disagree. I have seen many all with different and colorful theories. And since I have about a one in two chance of either being cured by pills or getting royally screwed by them, I want to know If I have an anxiety disorder or BP II before I make such a long term investment. No two shrinks can agree on what in the hell I have, And before I settle on the benzo's which I know will bring me sweet and immediate relief (like they do most everyone), I want to see if any of the other more currently en vogue and accepted modern and cool diagnoses fit and I can get away with taking a pill that isn't regulated, critiscized, and controversial! Not to mention one that somewhat dulls my cognitive abilities.Now granted my reasoning may be shallow, stupid, and even self-inflictual, but you did ask.
As always I look forward to your feedback.
Scott
Posted by IsoM on January 24, 2002, at 1:31:50
In reply to Re: Question About Your Meds » IsoM, posted by Mr. Scott on January 23, 2002, at 21:04:34
If you'd only been on it for 2 weeks & felt better then you'll probably feel even better after a couple more weeks. Glad to hear of it. Yes, Provigil's price is a killer - that's why I stick to adrafinil.
So, you never had any unpleasant side-effects at all beside dry mouth? I can't be certain if adrafinil contributes to my dry mouth as ADs tend to do that for me.
>
>
> I ordered it a long time ago, but only started taking it two weeks ago. I like it a lot, but ran out and had to get a Rx for Provigil while the Adrafanil is en route (start the Provigil tomorrow). The Provigil cost me $290.00 for 60 pills!!! What a frickin rip off! The adrafanil basically makes me wake up a bit and become less depressed and more enthusiastic about life, without the stimulant crash later on or tolerance (that I've noticed so far anyways). I feel a little more like everyone else looks (i know thats not helpful). I guess it sharpens the colors while the Effexor removes the horror.
>
> Best I can put it right now. I think it might make my mouth dry though.
>
> Scott
Posted by mr.scott on January 24, 2002, at 18:08:02
In reply to Long-term Effects of Adrafinil » Mr. Scott, posted by IsoM on January 24, 2002, at 1:31:50
No other side effects I can think of...What did you have in mind?
Posted by IsoM on January 24, 2002, at 18:25:57
In reply to Re: Long-term Effects of Adrafinil » IsoM, posted by mr.scott on January 24, 2002, at 18:08:02
One son who just started it said he has a constant headache & upset stomach. He gets a sick stomach at the drop of a hat so I don't know whether it's from adrafinil or not. He's very anti-medication anyway. Thinks we should just tough it out but I hate to see feel the way he does.
He was absolutely the happiest baby & child I'd ever seen, always laughing & so cheerful, but it's like a black cloud over him now. No motivation, no drive, bleak, barren outlook & these 2 'side-effects' are making him resistant to continue. I'm not going to shove it down his throat but wanted him to give it a fair trial. I wanted to know if others felt like that & if they did how long it lasted.
> No other side effects I can think of...What did you have in mind?
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 20:41:57
In reply to Re: Long-term Effects of Adrafinil » mr.scott, posted by IsoM on January 24, 2002, at 18:25:57
Actually now that you mention it I did get a headache at first, but only in combination with Zoloft or Prozac.. Thats why I stopped a while back. No problem with Effexor?
I hope the best for your son.
Scott
Posted by IsoM on January 25, 2002, at 21:19:43
In reply to Re: Long-term Effects of Adrafinil » IsoM, posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 20:41:57
Posted by 2sense on April 7, 2002, at 17:53:13
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting! » mr.scott, posted by JohnX2 on January 21, 2002, at 15:28:08
I started on Klonopin/Clonazepam .5 - 1.0 mg 1 1/2 years ago because I was unable to sleep. I take Wellbutrin (150 SR -- 2X a day -- I have Hashimoto's which causes hypothyroidism so I also take Synthroid -- for the depression that comes when the antibodies from the Hashimoto's kick up and it cuts my smoking to nearly nothing. I also have AD/HD and take Ritalin (a life saver). My doctor who I had seen for 6 years moved and a new one took over and during a 4 month period I went from 0.5 - 1.0 of the Klonipin to 4.0 (just at bedtime). This doctor became very ill and someone else (another pyschiatrist) took over and decided because my one brother may be bipolar and I have a thyroid disorder then I must be bipolar also. I wanted to go off (slowly) the Klonipin BUT a) the doctor had no appointments because they are short on doctors so our discussions where over the phone and short; b) he simply believes this and there is no changing his mind because I talk fast (I grew up in NJ and am currently in W. PA). When I worked in CO and CA I learned to slow my processing and talking so that others who were 'mellow' could keep up -- when I taught at MIT I didn't have to adjust anything for anyone they all kept up fine. I have no other symptoms and have been evaluated by other psychiatrists having worked for the government and it was part of intake -- so my family got the flu and I didn't refill the script (meaning I called a day or two late and the doctor didn't call it in a day or two after that) -- I had a grand mal seizure on Good Friday. Someone said they could take it or leave it (a posting from 07/04/01 or there abouts) -- be very careful with regard to w/drawl of anti-convulsants that are benzos -- my doctor (not one of them) ever told me that this could happen. Ultimately given how much I research having had some less than pleasant experiences (not everyone is an "A" student and/or doctor) I have a bunch of medical books, etc. Interestingly he PDR doesn't state the danger of sudden withdrawl (and it should) what it does, is tell the reader to see anticonvulsants (a section with other groups of meds, antianemic meds for instance) and it is there they are very, very clear about the danger in sudden withdrawal. I am seeing an excellent therapist and if I leave the practice then I leave her too -- hence my delima. Any ideas? Sorry so long it is my first posting. (To dot the i's and cross the t's I am having an EEG tomorrow AM and a brain MRI with contrast on Tuesday -- this was order not by the pyschiatrist but by my internist who thinks I should get out while I am still able to ... well I am sure you get the picture. Thanks for any and all who made it through this "brain dump". :-)
Posted by JohnX2 on April 7, 2002, at 20:51:05
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting!, posted by 2sense on April 7, 2002, at 17:53:13
> I started on Klonopin/Clonazepam .5 - 1.0 mg 1 1/2 years ago because I was unable to sleep. I take Wellbutrin (150 SR -- 2X a day -- I have Hashimoto's which causes hypothyroidism so I also take Synthroid -- for the depression that comes when the antibodies from the Hashimoto's kick up and it cuts my smoking to nearly nothing. I also have AD/HD and take Ritalin (a life saver). My doctor who I had seen for 6 years moved and a new one took over and during a 4 month period I went from 0.5 - 1.0 of the Klonipin to 4.0 (just at bedtime). This doctor became very ill and someone else (another pyschiatrist) took over and decided because my one brother may be bipolar and I have a thyroid disorder then I must be bipolar also. I wanted to go off (slowly) the Klonipin BUT a) the doctor had no appointments because they are short on doctors so our discussions where over the phone and short; b) he simply believes this and there is no changing his mind because I talk fast (I grew up in NJ and am currently in W. PA). When I worked in CO and CA I learned to slow my processing and talking so that others who were 'mellow' could keep up -- when I taught at MIT I didn't have to adjust anything for anyone they all kept up fine. I have no other symptoms and have been evaluated by other psychiatrists having worked for the government and it was part of intake -- so my family got the flu and I didn't refill the script (meaning I called a day or two late and the doctor didn't call it in a day or two after that) -- I had a grand mal seizure on Good Friday. Someone said they could take it or leave it (a posting from 07/04/01 or there abouts) -- be very careful with regard to w/drawl of anti-convulsants that are benzos -- my doctor (not one of them) ever told me that this could happen. Ultimately given how much I research having had some less than pleasant experiences (not everyone is an "A" student and/or doctor) I have a bunch of medical books, etc. Interestingly he PDR doesn't state the danger of sudden withdrawl (and it should) what it does, is tell the reader to see anticonvulsants (a section with other groups of meds, antianemic meds for instance) and it is there they are very, very clear about the danger in sudden withdrawal. I am seeing an excellent therapist and if I leave the practice then I leave her too -- hence my delima. Any ideas? Sorry so long it is my first posting. (To dot the i's and cross the t's I am having an EEG tomorrow AM and a brain MRI with contrast on Tuesday -- this was order not by the pyschiatrist but by my internist who thinks I should get out while I am still able to ... well I am sure you get the picture. Thanks for any and all who made it through this "brain dump". :-)
Take this with a grain of salt... Its my understanding that people with seizure disorders develop tolerance to Klonopin's antiseizure activity much quicker than people with anxiety disorder develop tolerance to the anti-anxiety effects. The medicine was looked into to treat seizures, but dropped due to the tolerance issue.
Some people feel that bipolar disorder is a form of a seizure disorder..I found that the medicine Topamax, which is a non-habit forming antiseizure medicine that also works on the same Gaba receptors as Klonopin, was a very effective medicine to substitute for Klonopin (for my symptoms).
Best wishes with your testing.
Regards,
John
Posted by 2sense on April 8, 2002, at 11:40:06
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting! » 2sense, posted by JohnX2 on April 7, 2002, at 20:51:05
John --
Thanks for answering so quickly. I am not certain I fully understood whether you think that I have a seizure disorder and therefore had the grand mal due to the tolerance issue or not. Can you clarify for me?
EVERYTHING and EVERY medical professional except this psychiatrist who wrote the script, and also believes that bipolar is a type of seizure or whatever, believes unequivocally that the rapid withdrawal from 4 mg. of Klonopin to 0 mg. PLUS my becoming lax with making sure my Wellbutrin doses (2 150 SR's a day) are a minimum of 6 hours apart (if not this lowers seizure tolerance), plus my 3 kids and husband had the flu and I wasn't sleeping well (and the night before the grand mal I didn't sleep a single wink) -- collectively along with an electrical re-entry anode heart problem needing to be fixed and I had a hysterectomy (TAH) and had been hemorrhaging since last May and my electrolytes were whacked out, plus I am anemic, plus my blood sugar was low. Still another's interpretation and input is always of interest to me. The EEG went fine but will not know the results until end of the week; MRI (w/ contrast) is tomorrow at 11 AM and will not know those results either until?? Even though I own 'The Pill Book' and the Nurses PDR manual and the slip from the pharmacist states not to withdraw suddenly because grand mal seizures can result -- I think it was negligent of the psychiatrist not to state so very clearly to me. I think he is juggling too many balls and it is my own humble opinion that mistakes can be made when one does not recognize and rectify situations that indicate they are overbooked, so to speak; it is still just my opinion!
As to the other medication you mentioned, Topiramate -- do you take this for seizures, bipolar, anxiety? I did a search on this medication (and the Depakote he is pushing also) and along with some pretty scary side effects (ex. grand mal seizures) -- the internet search comes up with attorneys who are taking cases of people who use the drug and have developed other health problems, some fatal. All drugs have side effects and at least to me, it is both a very pharmaceutical and litigious world we know live in.
My biggest issue is I do not believe I am bipolar, and since I have atypical anorexia (in times of mega stress I don't eat very well -- but dealing with this in therapy and it has been effective) I am a searcher, a reader, a learner -- I don't believe every problem one has can be given a label and a pill to fix. Now there are other "problems" <-- I don't like using that term -- issues; I had AD/HD and Ritalin not only stabilized my weight but made a great difference for me in many ways. It was not until I was in my early 30's that I even knew about it; it is very genetic (we are an entire family of it -- my immediate and both sides -- his and mine --> it isn't all bad; like anything there is good and bad). Thanks for reading, I type very fast and being a stay at home mom for 6 1/2 years has proved to be the most difficult and stressful time of my life. Just my ... 2sense :-)
PS I found this web page on the Topiramate – (http://www.nursespdr.com/members/database/ndrhtml/topiramate.html). I am including it ONLY for the 'FYI category' – obviously side effects are VERY individual, and the Nurse’s PDR, I suspect, lists everyone under the sun that anyone, anywhere has EVER experienced even a single time.
Posted by JohnX2 on April 8, 2002, at 17:04:44
In reply to Re: I've been scared into quitting! » JohnX2, posted by 2sense on April 8, 2002, at 11:40:06
> John --
>
> Thanks for answering so quickly. I am not certain I fully understood whether you think that I have a seizure disorder and therefore had the grand mal due to the tolerance issue or not. Can you clarify for me?
>
> EVERYTHING and EVERY medical professional except this psychiatrist who wrote the script, and also believes that bipolar is a type of seizure or whatever, believes unequivocally that the rapid withdrawal from 4 mg. of Klonopin to 0 mg. PLUS my becoming lax with making sure my Wellbutrin doses (2 150 SR's a day) are a minimum of 6 hours apart (if not this lowers seizure tolerance), plus my 3 kids and husband had the flu and I wasn't sleeping well (and the night before the grand mal I didn't sleep a single wink) -- collectively along with an electrical re-entry anode heart problem needing to be fixed and I had a hysterectomy (TAH) and had been hemorrhaging since last May and my electrolytes were whacked out, plus I am anemic, plus my blood sugar was low. Still another's interpretation and input is always of interest to me. The EEG went fine but will not know the results until end of the week; MRI (w/ contrast) is tomorrow at 11 AM and will not know those results either until?? Even though I own 'The Pill Book' and the Nurses PDR manual and the slip from the pharmacist states not to withdraw suddenly because grand mal seizures can result -- I think it was negligent of the psychiatrist not to state so very clearly to me. I think he is juggling too many balls and it is my own humble opinion that mistakes can be made when one does not recognize and rectify situations that indicate they are overbooked, so to speak; it is still just my opinion!
>I think it is *very bad* for anyone to abuptly stop taking a strong dose of a benzodizepine.
> As to the other medication you mentioned, Topiramate -- do you take this for seizures, bipolar, anxiety? I did a search on this medication (and the Depakote he is pushing also) and along with some pretty scary side effects (ex. grand mal seizures) -- the internet search comes up with attorneys who are taking cases of people who use the drug and have developed other health problems, some fatal. All drugs have side effects and at least to me, it is both a very pharmaceutical and litigious world we know live in.
>This is what I would do in term of looking at side effects. Find the PDR that did the actual clinical studies and look at the incidence of side effects compared to those who took a placebo. If the placebo caused 20% of the patients to have headaches, and the medicine caused 20% of the patients to have headaches, then the medicine probably doesn't cause headaches. Regardless of what medicatin you are looking at , whatever it is treating, it is going to be reported as a side effect, correct? What if I have epilepsy and Depakote doesn't work for me and I have a seizure, do I report that depakote has a seizure side effect? Every antidepressant will list depression as a side effect too. This is where looking for *statistical significance* is important. The placebo will also have seizure as a side effect. So usually in the actual physicians PDR they list side effects that were much more common than those listed on the placebo pill. These are the ones to look out for. If the medicine did not cause a side effect more often than the placebo pill, then probably the medicine was not the culprit. And yes, topamax has a reputation for causing cognitive decline.
> My biggest issue is I do not believe I am bipolar, and since I have atypical anorexia (in times of mega stress I don't eat very well -- but dealing with this in therapy and it has been effective) I am a searcher, a reader, a learner -- I don't believe every problem one has can be given a label and a pill to fix. Now there are other "problems" <-- I don't like using that term -- issues; I had AD/HD and Ritalin not only stabilized my weight but made a great difference for me in many ways. It was not until I was in my early 30's that I even knew about it; it is very genetic (we are an entire family of it -- my immediate and both sides -- his and mine --> it isn't all bad; like anything there is good and bad). Thanks for reading, I type very fast and being a stay at home mom for 6 1/2 years has proved to be the most difficult and stressful time of my life. Just my ... 2sense :-)
>FYI, Topamax may not be good for anorexia. It kills the apetite pretty bad.
Take care,
John> PS I found this web page on the Topiramate – (http://www.nursespdr.com/members/database/ndrhtml/topiramate.html). I am including it ONLY for the 'FYI category' – obviously side effects are VERY individual, and the Nurse’s PDR, I suspect, lists everyone under the sun that anyone, anywhere has EVER experienced even a single time.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.