![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 83. Go back in thread:
Posted by dougb on May 11, 2001, at 17:05:54
In reply to Re: Whats the best opiate? PACHA, posted by kazoo on May 7, 2001, at 0:51:30
> Opiates for depression? That's like a trans-orbital lobotomy for a headache. It just doesn't make any sense, but, then again, none of these drug combinations do, and I'm amazed (and baffled) as to how (and why) they do.
Are you a doctor? or how do you arrive at above supposition?
> Remember, doctors use the PDR as their Bible, so unless you can rewrite the indications for the drugs you mention to include depression,My GP told me that he prescribes 'off-label' every day, He says that many off label uses of meds do not make it into the PDR due to economic reasons
>you may want to consider shellR's good advice before being labled as one with "drug seeking behavior" (Gasp! Gasp!)
Do you mean, withdrawal, constantly seeking better alternatives, inability to get off of meds, constant increase of dosage and rapidly acquired tolerance?
Posted by kazoo on May 12, 2001, at 0:13:38
In reply to Re: Whats... and Drug Seeking Behavior » kazoo, posted by dougb on May 11, 2001, at 17:05:54
> Are you a doctor? or how do you arrive at above supposition?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A definition is needed here:An "opiate" is any set of various SEDATIVE narcotics which dulls the senses and induces relaxation or torpor; inducing sleep or sedation; soporific; causing dullness or apathy; deadening.
Pay particular attention to the word "deadening" then ask yourself how "deadening" the senses can, or would, lift someone from depression, which does a fine job of deadening the senses on its own.
If you thought unconventionally, you may fool yourself into believeing that the soporific effect may "lessen" the doldrums of depression, but that's not a judicious or wise approach given the addictive nature of the opiate family.
Over dinner the other night, I asked a psychiatrist from the Yale Psychiatric Clinic (YPI) whether he would prescribe an "opiate" to relieve depression. Without looking up, he said "No, that's ludicrous." I then asked him, "Even if the patient requested this giving sound reasons?" And his answer was "*Especially* if the patient requested this, reasons or not, it's just NOT DONE."
> My GP told me that he prescribes 'off-label' every day, He says that many off label uses of meds do not make it into the PDR due to economic reasons
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What drugs are you talking about? Using RETIN-A as an anti-wrinkle cream instead of its indicated use for 'acne vulgaris'? You don't say which drugs he does this with? I've yet to encounter a doctor who does this, so you must be one of the lucky ones who has a doctor who does this sort of off-beat thing. How lucky can you get?
> Do you mean, withdrawal, constantly seeking better alternatives, inability to get off of meds, constant increase of dosage and rapidly acquired tolerance?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does the term "doctor shopping" mean anything to you? Those ADDICTED to optiates have to CHASE FOR DOPE via DOCTOR SHOPPING and with the right amount of cash, there are plenty of them out there more than willing to oblige the hopelessly addicted, BUT DEPRESSED (!), individual.Opitates are not used for depression. To even think such a thing is an insult to the medical profession.
I will tell you one other thing: if you do get optiates to treat your so-called depression, and then you're shut off, you will experience the REAL depression you faked to begin with to get them. So who's fooling whom here? Not me.
kazoo
Posted by SalArmy4me on May 12, 2001, at 0:28:47
In reply to Re: Whats... and Drug Seeking Behavior, posted by kazoo on May 12, 2001, at 0:13:38
I'm willing to bet that the people endorsing opiates for depression have not tried every more convential treatment for depression.
I maintain that if one writes a list of psychotropic medications one has taken, I can always find 10 other viable and legitimate medications to try.
--The Salvation Army A.R.C. Command: Changing the world, one life at a time.
Posted by shelliR on May 12, 2001, at 14:46:33
In reply to Oy Vey: Opiates » kazoo, posted by SalArmy4me on May 12, 2001, at 0:28:47
One of the main reasons I use this board is to both pick up information on new depression treatments AND to discuss my use of opiates to control my depression. I have gotten both support, suggestions, and warnings concerning various opiates. I have also gotten insight into the difference between tolerance and addiction.
I have been to the best known psychopharmagologists in my area (a large eastern city). My psychiatrist is aware that I am using opiates to combat my depression; (I am not keeping secrets from my pdoc.) He agrees that I have tried enough drug combinations in the past few years that a respite is in order.
I also have strongly recommended MAOIs for people who have treatment resistent depression, before they enter into the opiate world. I think MAOIs can help people when all other meds have failed. And I try to help others realize that starting opiates to help depression has to be a well-thought out plan, and will not be successful for everyone, perhaps not even for most people.
That having been said, it is becoming increasingly tiresome to try to exchange information re opiates on this board among the posters who feel the necessity of sharing their own pedestrian outrage of such treatment for depression. I suppose all that can be done is to ignore your posts and not get into a defense of opiate use.
But I did want to say to you, that before you offer us your unsolicited consultations, perhaps if you read through the threads you will find that most of the posters using opiates to treat depression ...
have been to many doctors--doctors expert in treating medication resistent depression; Physicians who just might have more information than your MD father, or your MD mother, or the MD sitting next to you at a dinner party.
have tried many many medications and many combinations of medications over many years;
are using opiates WITH the knowledge of our
psychiatrists.and,
do not recommend that all depressed persons should use opiates as a treatment.It seems to me that most of you don't even read the whole thread before you rush in to save our opiate souls.
Shelli
Posted by SalArmy4me on May 12, 2001, at 18:25:20
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression, posted by shelliR on May 12, 2001, at 14:46:33
Here's what Dr. Richelson, one of Dr. Bob's colleagues wrote about opiates in depression:
"Long before the established antidepressants were available, opiates and opioids were used to treat depression. However, for various reasons today, I would not use this class of compounds to treat depression. The mechanisms of tolerance to a drug is very complex and not well understood for most drugs. Some mechanisms involve increased metabolism of the drug and adaptive changes at the cellular level. The theory about tolerance to opioids is that there are adaptive changes at the level of receptors for these compounds. Why tolerance would not develop in some patients, but not others is a mystery." --http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010411/msgs/59892.html
Here's what you wrote pertaining to a doctor who wouldn't prescribe opiates for depression:
"Elizabeth. I talked to Dr. Bodkin briefly today...He will do a consultation, but will not proscribe codeine because of a prior _law suit_{!}."Here's what the facts say:
•As many as 900,000 Americans are dependent on
heroin or other illicit opioids.
*3-8% of opiate users die of trauma or overdose.
Posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 19:57:44
In reply to Re: Whats the best opiate for depression ? / ETC » Elizabeth, posted by shelliR on May 11, 2001, at 12:20:31
> He will do a consultation, but will not proscribe codeine because of a prior law suit. But he definitely seems very knowledgeable and gave me the name of someone in my area, who he admits is probably "less creative" in prescribing for depression than he is.
He is very knowledgeable; I think the world of him. He also knows a lot of people -- he referred me to a young pdoc who was a student of his. (I've only seen the guy once so far but he seems very bright, and I trust Dr. Bodkin's assessment of him.)
Codeine isn't the best choice for an AD anyway, IMO -- if you need a full agonist, a longer-acting one with fewer adverse effects relative to desired effects would be preferable.
I've heard many stories of people suing their doctors over some pretty absurd things. Dr. Bodkin takes particular risks in that he is willing to work with patients who may be personality-disordered (which often is associated with a tendency to blame other people for one's problems -- e.g., a patient misuses or overdoses on medication, then blames the doctor). I take Dr. B's willingness to work with these "difficult" patients as a sign of exceptional compassion.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 20:07:10
In reply to Re: Whats... and Drug Seeking Behavior » kazoo, posted by dougb on May 11, 2001, at 17:05:54
> My GP told me that he prescribes 'off-label' every day, He says that many off label uses of meds do not make it into the PDR due to economic reasons
Yes. The only AED that was ever labeled for bipolar disorder, for example, is Depakote. Tegretol never made it, and Lamictal is being studied. Lithium augmentation for unipolar depression is off-label. So is the use of psychomotor stimulants such as Ritalin, and, similarly, of antidepressants such as Wellbutrin for ADHD. MAOIs are some of the most effective drugs for panic disorder and social phobia, but they're only labelled for nonmelancholic depression (they work for melancholia too, BTW!). Imipramine, the first drug ever used for panic disorder (and the drug that was used to "pharmacologically dissect" panic disorder from other types of anxiety disorders), is not labeled for this use. Meridia, which is both chemically and pharmacodynamically similar to Effexor, is marketed as an antiobesity drug (of all things). SSRIs have a variety of FDA-approved indications, but they all are probably about equally effective for depression, panic disorder, bulimia, PMS, etc. Luvox and Anafranil aren't even labeled for depression or panic disorder (only for OCD), although both have been used for depression and PD for years in Europe.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 20:36:43
In reply to Re: Whats... and Drug Seeking Behavior, posted by kazoo on May 12, 2001, at 0:13:38
> An "opiate" is any set of various SEDATIVE narcotics which dulls the senses and induces relaxation or torpor; inducing sleep or sedation; soporific; causing dullness or apathy; deadening.
You seem to be using a very outdated definition, perhaps one that was used before the opioid receptor was discovered. The effects you describe are more characteristic of barbiturates than of opiates.
"Opiate" is a term that refers to drugs that act as agonists at a particular receptor. Often it is used to include synthetic drugs, although technically I believe that only the active components of opium (morphine and codeine) are "opiates" ("opioids" is the more inclusive term).
Opioids are not simply "sedatives" or CNS depressants and have different effects on different people (just like any drug). They have both excitatory (increasing the rate of neuronal firing; CNS stimulant) and inhibitory (decreasing the rate of firing; CNS depressant) properties. Once again, they are defined by their chemical and pharmacological activity, not by their observed effects -- which, again, vary.
I have taken several drugs of the opioid agonist type, all of which were primarily activating rather than sedating. Sedation is not necessarily a bad characteristic for an antidepressant, in any case: most people find tricyclics such as amitriptyline, imipramine, and clomipramine sedating, but they have been recognised as effective antidepressants for more than 40 years (and yes, they do have CNS depressant activity). (Opioids, incidentally, were known to be effective ADs long before the tricyclics, amphetamines, or even barbiturates were discovered.)
"Narcotic" is mainly a legal term today and has (appropriately) been all but dropped from medicine.
> If you thought unconventionally, you may fool yourself into believeing that the soporific effect may "lessen" the doldrums of depression, but that's not a judicious or wise approach given the addictive nature of the opiate family.
It takes an addictive personality and addictive behaviour to produce addiction -- an addictive drug won't make an addict by itself.
> Over dinner the other night, I asked a psychiatrist from the Yale Psychiatric Clinic (YPI) whether he would prescribe an "opiate" to relieve depression. Without looking up, he said "No, that's ludicrous."
He should consult the literature, then, rather than speak without thinking.
> I've yet to encounter a doctor who does this, so you must be one of the lucky ones who has a doctor who does this sort of off-beat thing. How lucky can you get?
Lucky enough to live near a major medical centre where research into novel treatments is common?
> Opitates are not used for depression. To even think such a thing is an insult to the medical profession.
This is incorrect.
> I will tell you one other thing: if you do get optiates to treat your so-called depression, and then you're shut off, you will experience the REAL depression you faked to begin with to get them. So who's fooling whom here? Not me.
Oh jeez -- the conclusion that anybody who you disagree with isn't "really" depressed? *Please.* This is simply uncalled for.
I have been diagnosed with major depressive disorder (severe with melancholia) for more than 10 years, by multiple psychiatrists. (I do not "doctor shop," though I'm sure you'd love to make that accusation; I have moved several times during the last decade and every one of my pdocs has had access to my records and has consulted with the previous one.) I have responded to opioids after failing to respond fully to every class of conventional antidepressant as well as stimulants, anticonvulsants, lithium, etc. For the last two years I have taken a synthetic opioid partial agonist called buprenorphine which was recommended by a well respected physician-researcher at a Harvard-affiliated hospital whose credentials and experience are enough to permit him the opportunity to go against convention and whose intellect permits him to think outside the box. It really doesn't matter if you assume I am a drug addict who is just faking depression. You are a non-professional with no relevant formal education and an apparent political agenda, and you have demonstrated quite clearly that you are perfectly comfortable ignoring the facts of any situation if they are inconsistent with your prejudices.
-elizabeth
Posted by judy1 on May 12, 2001, at 21:08:52
In reply to Drug Seeking Behavior » kazoo, posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 20:36:43
Just read your well written response, I'm glad you have had access to such knowledgeable pdocs. Another effective use for opiates is for treatment resistant panic disorder; my pdoc has also prescribed them for depression. And he also is part of a well-respected reasearch program. Take care, judy
Posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 21:10:52
In reply to Oy Vey: Opiates » kazoo, posted by SalArmy4me on May 12, 2001, at 0:28:47
> I'm willing to bet that the people endorsing opiates for depression have not tried every more convential treatment for depression.
"Every?" You mean, like, every one of the 10 or so tricyclics, 5 SSRIs, 4 MAOIs (more in some countries), 6 or so miscellaneous atypical ADs, and augmentation with every mood stabilizer, lithium, BuSpar, pindolol, every antipsychotic, all available psychostimulants, high-dose alprazolam, ECT, folate, total and partial sleep deprivation...do I have to go on? Or do you get the idea?
I've taken pretty much all of the above. Here are the exceptions:
- only tried 3 TCAs (desipramine, nortriptyline, and amoxapine) and didn't tolerate them due to typical anticholinergic/antihistaminic TCA side effects that are known to be *worse* with other TCAs
- only tried a couple antipsychotics (Zyprexa most extensively, also Seroquel, Risperdal, Moban, Mellaril) and only, except for Zyprexa, in augmentation doses (Mellaril and Moban knocked me out at minimal doses, Risperdal caused unacceptable exacerbation of my RBD)
- only 3 SSRIs (Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft)
- skipped Tegretol, Topamax (but other AEDs were useless)
- ECT is, in my judgment, less safe than buprenorphine (which I know first-hand to be safe and effective), so I never bothered with it
- never took antidepressant doses of trazodone for more than a couple days
- didn't bother trying to order Manerix from overseas because it has such a lousy rep, especially compared with the traditional MAOIs which I did try (Nardil, Marplan, Parnate, *and* high-dose selegiline)
- haven't tried taking high-dose Xanax around the clock
- haven't tried some of the weaker stimulants that are marketed for weight loss (e.g., phentermine) or Desoxyn (did try modafinil)
- never tried high-dose (60-90mg) buspirone
- I am absolutely uninterested in St. John's wortSo there's your counterexample. I think that it's unreasonable to expect me to try a RIMA when irreversible, nonselective MAOIs didn't work, or to keep trying SSRIs or TCAs. Also please bear in mind that I'm not bipolar or psychotic.
I have a minor interest in trying Aricept or Desoxyn, but it's nontrivial to convince a pdoc to prescribe either of these (Aricept because of my REM sleep parasomnia, Desoxyn because, well, it's methamphetamine -- although it might be safer with MAOIs than Dexedrine or Adderall). I would also consider high-dose buspirone, or possibly Meridia (Effexor is out due to a life-threatening ADR).
> I maintain that if one writes a list of psychotropic medications one has taken, I can always find 10 other viable and legitimate medications to try.
Please, by all means. Me-too drugs (like other SSRIs, TCAs, stimulants, or neuroleptics) don't count. Anything that has to be ordered from overseas is only marginally "viable." Anything that is only available through premarketing trials is out of the question (I usually don't qualify for clinical trials because they require you to be off all AD meds, which my doctor and I both feel is an unacceptable risk in my case).
So, there are the rules. I think they're quite fair given the grandiosity of your claim. Go for it.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 21:23:55
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression, posted by shelliR on May 12, 2001, at 14:46:33
Just a "me too!" to Shelli. I share your frustration with constantly being put on the defensive about the medication I take, medication which was legitimately prescribed in consultation with a true expert. I think it is only to be expected that one would be resentful of being treated like a liar by well-meaning but self-righteous people who appear to think they know what's best for others and who ignore the clearly-stated details of one's situation.
> It seems to me that most of you don't even read the whole thread before you rush in to save our opiate souls.
Indeed. The anti-opiate movement on this board seems to share many of the qualities of a fundamentalist religious crusade!
Thanks for saying it, all of it. To me, this quality of support represents the best that this board has to offer (because even though you're speaking for yourself, I know you're aware that others of us have been subject to the same offensive and ignorant accusations and generalisations as you have).
best,
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on May 12, 2001, at 21:27:54
In reply to Re: Whats the best opiate for depression ? / ETC, posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 19:57:44
>
> Codeine isn't the best choice for an AD anyway, IMO -- if you need a full agonist, a longer-acting one with fewer adverse effects relative to desired effects would be preferable.Like Ultram?
> I've heard many stories of people suing their doctors over some pretty absurd things. Dr. Bodkin takes particular risks in that he is willing to work with patients who may be personality-disordered (which often is associated with a tendency to blame other people for one's problems -- e.g., a patient misuses or overdoses on medication, then blames the doctor). I take Dr. B's willingness to work with these "difficult" patients as a sign of exceptional compassion.Elizabeth, yes, I believe the scenario with the law suit is very close to what you described above, and I didn't take it that Dr. Bodkin had done anything wrong. If I don't find someone around here that I highly respect to consult with, I may fly up to Boston. I also have an old friend living in Somerset. Still, in the long run it would be best to find someone in my immediate area. He did make the suggestion of going up very high on selegiline, but I'm not really anxious to go off the nardil and start again with a new MAOI, unless perhaps it was the patch.
Shelli
Posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 21:53:09
In reply to Re: Opiates for depression » shelliR, posted by SalArmy4me on May 12, 2001, at 18:25:20
> Here's what you wrote pertaining to a doctor who wouldn't prescribe opiates for depression:
> "Elizabeth. I talked to Dr. Bodkin briefly today...He will do a consultation, but will not proscribe codeine because of a prior _law suit_{!}."See my response concerning patients who sue their doctors (certain types will do so at the drop of a hat). I know Dr. Bodkin, and in fact he first recommended buprenorphine to me. He's not a quack by any means.
> Here's what the facts say:
> •As many as 900,000 Americans are dependent on
> heroin or other illicit opioids.
> *3-8% of opiate users die of trauma or overdose.Opiate *abusers*, not *users*. This has nothing to do with medical use; your facts are irrelevant facts. Please restrict this discussion to medical use of opioids (which is vastly different from illicit use). Nobody asked about how to find out where they can buy dope in their town.
Posted by SalArmy4me on May 12, 2001, at 21:53:43
In reply to Re: Oy Vey: Opiates » SalArmy4me, posted by Elizabeth on May 12, 2001, at 21:10:52
I am hopeful that you will still be able to find an effective pharmacological treatment, despite having tried so many of them. I got some nice ideas for you:
1) Mirapex - proven as effective as imipramine in depression:
Corrigan MH, Denahan AQ, Wright CE, Ragual RJ, Evans DL. Comparison of pramipexole, fluoxetine, and placebo in patients with major depression. Depress Anxiety. 2000;11(2):58-65.
DeBattista C, Solvason HB, Breen JA, Schatzberg AF. Pramipexole augmentation of a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor in the treatment of depression. J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2000 Apr;20(2):274-5.
2) Pindolol - it once was a wonder drug for me that I took without an antidepressant, (but most people will need one). Pindolol is a beta-blocker, the only one of its class known to speed up and augment the action of antidepressants. The main studies done (found on Medline) have used it most effectively with sertraline, although it has been tried and proven effective with most of the SSRIs, tranylcypromine and moclobemide, and a few of the tricyclics. See Dr. Bob's
Psychopharmacology website (uhs.bsd.uchicago.edu/~bhsiung/tips/tips.html) and look up pindolol for more information.
New York University Psychiatry Augmentation website: http://www.med.nyu.edu/Psych/aug/index.html3) Definitely try Tegretol XR if you get a chance.
Its very tolerable.4) Ludiomil (MAPROTILINE) - that's a good one that few have heard about since it came out around the time Prozac came out and was overshadowed by Prozac. It is a tetracyclic with efficacy comparable to SSRI's and no sexual side-effects.
5) Geodon (ziprasidone) - works on serotonin and norepinephrine with little weight gain or sedation.
6) BuSpar - only effective in depression at higher doses according to the last study done on it and depression.
7) Serzone - I was on it for a month with no side-effects.
Thyroid Hormones T3 + T4 - pioneered by Dr. Whybrow at UCLA.
Foreign drugs: *Reboxetine, *Moclobemide (I can prove that it is effective, albeit not more than irreversible MAOI's), *Mianserin, *Tianeptine, *Modafanil, Brofaromine, *Amisulpride, *Adrafanil. Others: Bromocriptine, Ropinirole (another dopamine agonist), Norvasc(?), Pemoline(?) (a stimulant), *Seroquel, Tamoxifen(?), Doxepin, Yohimbine, the new Depakote _ER_, Nomifensine.Please ask me about any of these if you have questions. I've been on them all.
Posted by Cecilia on May 13, 2001, at 0:04:45
In reply to Re: Whats the best opiate for depression ?, posted by ElizabethNeedsTogetShocked on May 12, 2001, at 22:51:11
To Eric (under his new handle): Believe me, depression IS pain. Depression can be the worst pain there is. I haven`t tried opiates and doubt they work for most people, but they do work for Elizabeth. Why does that bother you so much?
Posted by Michele on May 13, 2001, at 0:19:20
In reply to Re: To Eric, posted by Cecilia on May 13, 2001, at 0:04:45
> To Eric (under his new handle): Believe me, depression IS pain. Depression can be the worst pain there is. I haven`t tried opiates and doubt they work for most people, but they do work for Elizabeth. Why does that bother you so much?
>
>
Celia,
There is pysical pain, and there is mental pain. They are different. I believe that's why they probably make different drugs for each. :-)
Posted by Cecilia on May 13, 2001, at 0:50:29
In reply to Re: To Eric » Cecilia, posted by Michele on May 13, 2001, at 0:19:20
> > To Eric (under his new handle): Believe me, depression IS pain. Depression can be the worst pain there is. I haven`t tried opiates and doubt they work for most people, but they do work for Elizabeth. Why does that bother you so much?
> >
> >
> Celia,
> There is pysical pain, and there is mental pain. They are different. I believe that's why they probably make different drugs for each. :-)I find that when I`m in the worst depression I do hurt physically as well as mentally-it`s like I`m just one overwhelming ball of pain. I wouldn`t take opiates for it though-I know it`s not the kind of pain they can fix. (Not that the many different antidepressants I have tried have helped either). But I don`t see anything wrong with Elizabeth choosing to take medication prescribed and supervised by a respected researcher and it`s annoying to see Eric pop back with his insulting attacks on her.
Posted by Michele on May 13, 2001, at 1:01:12
In reply to Re: To Eric-Michele, posted by Cecilia on May 13, 2001, at 0:50:29
I know what your saying..... but I guess I'm talking more about the physical pain of saying like your back hurts or something. Physical pain such as what comes from cancer.... or muscle deterorations, or whatnot.... really aren't the same as mental pain. I've tried AD's before.. and tho they may have worked in making me feel better emotionally... they didn't touch my pysical pain. Unfortuanely. I agree.... Eric(?) is out of line.... but don't concern yourself with it too much... as soon as Dr. Bob sees it, he'll be blocked. For him to express himself in that way.... means he is having some really horrible mental anguish of some sort.... I know, when I first read his stuff I felt horrible for Elizabeth.... and tho I may not agree with some of elizabeths posts either... she doesn't deserve that kind of attack. So if your reading this elizabeth..... he'll be gone soon. Take it with a grain of salt.
Posted by Cecilia on May 13, 2001, at 3:15:52
In reply to Re: To Eric-Michele, posted by Michele on May 13, 2001, at 1:37:55
Actually AD`s (tricyclics in particular) are often prescribed for patients with chronic physical pain (though who knows if they really help the pain or merely help the patient cope with it better because he`s less depressed). It`s hard to separate the mind and body. Physical pain is definitely a lot easier to treat than mental pain, though, if the doctor is willing to treat it, which many are not for fear of addiction, even if the patient is terminally ill. Wheras there are a lot of people whose depresssions haven`t responded to any of the available meds or to therapy.
I just wish the drug companies would spend less money on TV commercials extolling the virtues of the drugs already available and more on researching new ones.
Posted by shelliR on May 13, 2001, at 13:07:06
In reply to Re: To Eric-Michele » ElizabethNeedsTogetShocked, posted by Michele on May 13, 2001, at 10:36:10
Elizabeth, I just got to the board and I'm really sorry that there is this attack going on. It seems bad, but remember the attack only involves two people, two repetitive people. So, I imagine it should be over soon.
Please, I hope you do not feel the need to defend yourself. Yesterday you wrote posts to people doing that, and I wonder whether that's where you really want to spend your energy. It's your call, but I wouldn't bother.
Mostly I hope it doesn't get in the way of the posts we (you, and I and Cecilia,Scott and others) have been exchanging. They have had useful information and support. I suppose this will ride over fairly soon and I don't intend to censor my thoughts or my medications on the board because of others' bullying.
So hang in there, and know that you have done all you can to find a way to beat your depression. It's a beautiful, beautiful mother's day sunday on the east coast, and I hope you are out, away from all this negativity.
Shelli
Posted by SLS on May 13, 2001, at 15:13:55
In reply to Elizabeth....................., posted by shelliR on May 13, 2001, at 13:07:06
> Elizabeth, I just got to the board and I'm really sorry that there is this attack going on. It seems bad, but remember the attack only involves two people, two repetitive people. So, I imagine it should be over soon.
>
> Please, I hope you do not feel the need to defend yourself. Yesterday you wrote posts to people doing that, and I wonder whether that's where you really want to spend your energy. It's your call, but I wouldn't bother.
>
> Mostly I hope it doesn't get in the way of the posts we (you, and I and Cecilia,Scott and others) have been exchanging. They have had useful information and support. I suppose this will ride over fairly soon and I don't intend to censor my thoughts or my medications on the board because of others' bullying.
>
> So hang in there, and know that you have done all you can to find a way to beat your depression. It's a beautiful, beautiful mother's day sunday on the east coast, and I hope you are out, away from all this negativity.
>
> Shelli
Me too.Actually, Elizabeth, I find your behavior in the midst of this nuisance enviable. When I grow up, I want to be just like you.
- Scott
Posted by gen on May 13, 2001, at 15:34:58
In reply to Re: Elizabeth..................... Me too., posted by SLS on May 13, 2001, at 15:13:55
I came on to say exactly what Scott just said. I admire your composure tremendously. And Shelli, you hang in there, too. Glad the weather is as lovely where you are as it is here.
Gen
Posted by JahL on May 13, 2001, at 15:52:35
In reply to Re: Elizabeth..................... Me too., posted by gen on May 13, 2001, at 15:34:58
If it works, it works.
@ this point I wld like to refer to my 1st post on this thread...
j
Posted by Michele on May 13, 2001, at 16:23:54
In reply to and me..., posted by JahL on May 13, 2001, at 15:52:35
Shelli,
Are you referring to me as one of the two who is attacking Elizabeth?????? I never once wrote anything directed at her... or anything of that manner. In fact.... I have had at least 2 posts.... that quotes where included... that I was basically being yelled at for writing...WHEN I DIDN'T EVEN WRITE THEM. If you look closer... me and another person are getting confused. I think I'm getting attacked here.... and by things I didn't even say. I even wrote a post to "elizabeth needs to be shocked" saying that was harsh.... and should rerain from it. I may not agree with her.but I don't think I have to.Because I don't agree... does not mean that I'm attacking her.... by any means..... and when it comes to saying stuff like that.... refer to my post at the bottom..... where you are angry at me!! And for what?
Posted by gen on May 13, 2001, at 16:52:04
In reply to Re: and me.Shelli, posted by Michele on May 13, 2001, at 16:23:54
> Shelli, thought I should give you your own admiring post, not just tack yours onto Elizabeth's, so here it is. Your restraint has been truly remarkable, and I'm glad to have your example before me! (I've admired many of your posts in the past, as well.)
Gen
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