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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lynne on April 25, 2000, at 14:10:50
Can anyone compare these two drugs when used to treat ADD.Is Desoxyn time released? Which is better?
Posted by saint james on April 25, 2000, at 14:56:54
In reply to Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by Lynne on April 25, 2000, at 14:10:50
> Can anyone compare these two drugs when used to treat ADD.Is Desoxyn time released? Which is better?
james here....
Very few doc's use Desoxyn as the methyl version of amphetamine is often abused. As Desoxyn is a long acting amphetamine it does not need to be in a time release formaulation. As Dexadrine is very sucessful with most people with ADD there seems little reason to go to the stronger Desoxyn. Methamphetamine is more addictive than amphetamine. There is some indication that the subsituted amphetamines are more neurotoxic.
james
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 25, 2000, at 23:37:12
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by saint james on April 25, 2000, at 14:56:54
> > Can anyone compare these two drugs when used to treat ADD.Is Desoxyn time released? Which is better?
>
> james here....
>
> Very few doc's use Desoxyn as the methyl version of amphetamine is often abused. As Desoxyn is a long acting amphetamine it does not need to be in a time release formaulation. As Dexadrine is very sucessful with most people with ADD there seems little reason to go to the stronger Desoxyn. Methamphetamine is more addictive than amphetamine. There is some indication that the subsituted amphetamines are more neurotoxic.
>
> james
James,How would compare Dexedrine to Adderal with regard to efficacy and side effects in treating either depression or ADD AD/HD?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by kazoo on April 26, 2000, at 3:22:11
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by saint james on April 25, 2000, at 14:56:54
> > Can anyone compare these two drugs when used to treat ADD.Is Desoxyn time released? Which is better?
>
> james here....
>
> Very few doc's use Desoxyn as the methyl version of amphetamine is often abused. As Desoxyn is a long acting amphetamine it does not need to be in a time release formaulation. As Dexadrine is very sucessful with most people with ADD there seems little reason to go to the stronger Desoxyn. Methamphetamine is more addictive than amphetamine. There is some indication that the subsituted amphetamines are more neurotoxic.
>
> james^^^^^^^^^^^
All amphetamines have the potential for abuse, not just the "methyl version." Also, it is no
more addicting than Dexedrine, Biphetamine or Obetrol, which has been renamed, and remarketed,
as Adderall.
If availability is factored into this "potential for abuse" formula, then Dexedrine, as well
as Ritalin, would set the standard for this unfortunate phenomenon.
Desoxyn is nothing more than an ephedrine/amphetamine mix (desoxyephedrine).
Desoxyn is time-released via its "gradumet" form.
Just what are "subsituted amphetamines"?
The reason why doctors choose not to use Desoxyn is because they don't want the DEA
on their backs. The drug has been stigmatized since the 1960s.
IMHO, the DEA, as well as the FDA, should both take a hike until their hats float.Greetings to James & Lynne.
kazoo
Posted by Lynne on April 26, 2000, at 9:56:38
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by kazoo on April 26, 2000, at 3:22:11
Thank you to everyone for the information. I take Dextrostat(generic Dexedrine). I like it but, it makes my eyes red and my face flush. Do you think Desoxyn would do the same thing?
Posted by saint james on April 26, 2000, at 13:02:37
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by kazoo on April 26, 2000, at 3:22:11
> All amphetamines have the potential for abuse, not just the "methyl version." Also, it is no
> more addicting than Dexedrine, Biphetamine or Obetrol, which has been renamed, and remarketed,
> as Adderall.
James here....Sorry wrong on many points. Look up Desoxyn on the internet it is metamphepamine. Having done alll forms of amphetamine I can witness to the fact methyl is the strongest and most abused.
james
Posted by saint james on April 26, 2000, at 13:05:10
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by Lynne on April 26, 2000, at 9:56:38
> Thank you to everyone for the information. I take Dextrostat(generic Dexedrine). I like it but, it makes my eyes red and my face flush. Do you think Desoxyn would do the same thing?
James here....No it is d-amphetamine also called Dexadrine.
james
Posted by saint james on April 26, 2000, at 13:29:49
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by kazoo on April 26, 2000, at 3:22:11
> Just what are "subsituted amphetamines"?
James here.....Any substutions to the amphetamine molecule
make a substuted amphetamine, though many are not active.james
Posted by saint james on April 26, 2000, at 14:38:50
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn - James, posted by Scott L. Schofield on April 25, 2000, at 23:37:12
> > > Can anyone compare these two drugs when
> James,
>
> How would compare Dexedrine to Adderal with regard to efficacy and side effects in treating either depression or ADD AD/HD?
>
> Thanks.
James here....As you know Adderal is both d and l-amphetamine. I have looked all over to find info on l-amphetamine and came up nil. I do know some people who have had experience with these diffrent isomers. They say that the d isomer is the smoother one and the l isomer is the speedy, shaky, wirey kind. They prefer d isomer. In biological life the d isomer is most times the active while the l isomer is less active or has sideeffects.
So, I would say there is no real chemical difference between Dex and Adderal. However Adderal does have a different time release method
so this could account for some difference.Dex is cheaper so I say go with Dx.
james
Posted by utopizen on April 7, 2003, at 16:09:17
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by saint james on April 25, 2000, at 14:56:54
> Very few doc's use Desoxyn as the methyl version of amphetamine is often abused.It is signifigantly less abused than Ritalin, and even lesser abused than the other prescribed amphetamines (Dex + Adderall). It may be "often" abused, but less often than Ritalin, Dexedrine, and Adderall. The word "often" is a comparative term...
where you trying to say "often" in animal models? Because that might make more sense. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be true, since animal models still can't objectively distinguish whether a chimp is taking Ritalin or cocaine in a controlled test...
>
As Desoxyn is a long acting amphetamine it does not need to be in a time release formaulation.
>Well, it's actually the shortest-acting amp around. Around 3-4 hours for me. Hence why Desoxyn Gradumets (R) were around for decades, which were extended release methamphetamine. It was discontinued in 2000 due to manufacturing problems. Only the immediate release is still around. I just called Ovation Pharma, which bought Desoxyn, and they told me they're changing the Abbott logo to theirs. I'm keeping one as a collector's item.
>>>
As Dexadrine is very sucessful with most people with ADD there seems little reason to go to the stronger Desoxyn.
>>>>
Unfortunately, that's simply not true. Only 70% find complete remission of their symptoms from stimulant intervention. That's 30% who still suffer from ADD to some extent. I know a 7-yr old who has inattentive ADD, and nothing works on him. He's even tried Desoxyn.Ovation would not have given $40 million to Abbott if there wasn't a market for it, especially since Ovation has board members who use to be VPs at Abbott.
>
Methamphetamine is more addictive than amphetamine. There is some indication that the subsituted amphetamines are more neurotoxic.
>
> jamesALL amphetamines are neurotoxic when they're taken interavenously. Perhaps you glanced over that little tidbit in reading about meth's neurotoxicity? There's never once been a study that even tried to claim meth's neurotoxic at oral doses. There's a huge difference between a brain cell getting a drug over a 20 minute period at onset and a brain cell getting a drug over a 2 milisecond period at onset.
Seriously, James, I'm glad you take time to answer people's questions, but some of the things you said in your post simply aren't things that have ever been said about Desoxyn before.
And since you claim that you've taken all the amphetamines, I'm going to have to assume you've taken street meth rather than Desoxyn. I take this because street meth lasts 5-8 hours on oral dosing, and Desoxyn doesn't come close to lasting that long.
And if you're reading any research on Medline, keep in mind it's very, very, very rare for methamphetamine research to test oral Desoxyn.
It generally tries to use IV, or "Methedrine" (available in hospitals to reverse complications during anesthesia). It's simply more fun to see how screwed up the brain gets on IV meth than how effective the brain gets on oral Desoxyn. In the meantime, less is learned for ADD-- an actual illness that one doesn't elect to have- and more is wasted on drug addicts-- who choose to destroy themselves
I might go back to Dexedrine because Desoxyn causes a bit of a problem with sweaty armpits for me...
Posted by Paulbwell on October 10, 2005, at 22:45:35
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by utopizen on April 7, 2003, at 16:09:17
>
> > Very few doc's use Desoxyn as the methyl version of amphetamine is often abused.
>
> It is signifigantly less abused than Ritalin, and even lesser abused than the other prescribed amphetamines (Dex + Adderall). It may be "often" abused, but less often than Ritalin, Dexedrine, and Adderall. The word "often" is a comparative term...
>
> where you trying to say "often" in animal models? Because that might make more sense. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be true, since animal models still can't objectively distinguish whether a chimp is taking Ritalin or cocaine in a controlled test...
>
> >
> As Desoxyn is a long acting amphetamine it does not need to be in a time release formaulation.
> >
>
> Well, it's actually the shortest-acting amp around. Around 3-4 hours for me. Hence why Desoxyn Gradumets (R) were around for decades, which were extended release methamphetamine. It was discontinued in 2000 due to manufacturing problems. Only the immediate release is still around. I just called Ovation Pharma, which bought Desoxyn, and they told me they're changing the Abbott logo to theirs. I'm keeping one as a collector's item.
>
> >>>
> As Dexadrine is very sucessful with most people with ADD there seems little reason to go to the stronger Desoxyn.
> >>>>
> Unfortunately, that's simply not true. Only 70% find complete remission of their symptoms from stimulant intervention. That's 30% who still suffer from ADD to some extent. I know a 7-yr old who has inattentive ADD, and nothing works on him. He's even tried Desoxyn.
>
> Ovation would not have given $40 million to Abbott if there wasn't a market for it, especially since Ovation has board members who use to be VPs at Abbott.
>
> >
> Methamphetamine is more addictive than amphetamine. There is some indication that the subsituted amphetamines are more neurotoxic.
> >
> > james
>
> ALL amphetamines are neurotoxic when they're taken interavenously. Perhaps you glanced over that little tidbit in reading about meth's neurotoxicity? There's never once been a study that even tried to claim meth's neurotoxic at oral doses. There's a huge difference between a brain cell getting a drug over a 20 minute period at onset and a brain cell getting a drug over a 2 milisecond period at onset.
>
> Seriously, James, I'm glad you take time to answer people's questions, but some of the things you said in your post simply aren't things that have ever been said about Desoxyn before.
>
> And since you claim that you've taken all the amphetamines, I'm going to have to assume you've taken street meth rather than Desoxyn. I take this because street meth lasts 5-8 hours on oral dosing, and Desoxyn doesn't come close to lasting that long.
>
> And if you're reading any research on Medline, keep in mind it's very, very, very rare for methamphetamine research to test oral Desoxyn.
>
> It generally tries to use IV, or "Methedrine" (available in hospitals to reverse complications during anesthesia). It's simply more fun to see how screwed up the brain gets on IV meth than how effective the brain gets on oral Desoxyn. In the meantime, less is learned for ADD-- an actual illness that one doesn't elect to have- and more is wasted on drug addicts-- who choose to destroy themselves
>
> I might go back to Dexedrine because Desoxyn causes a bit of a problem with sweaty armpits for me...
>It seems as if Dexedrine is often more effective in ADD/HD, but in SEVER Narcolepsy and problems where folks simply cannot live a normal life, (being awake life) Then Desoxyn HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE SUPERIOR, in allowing these people to remain awake, and on the job.
Posted by alohashirt on October 15, 2005, at 20:35:10
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by Paulbwell on October 10, 2005, at 22:45:35
>
> It seems as if Dexedrine is often more effective in ADD/HD, but in SEVER Narcolepsy and problems where folks simply cannot live a normal life, (being awake life) Then Desoxyn HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE SUPERIOR, in allowing these people to remain awake, and on the job.
>At risk of being a troll, the addictability (if such a thing exists) is distinct from the effectiveness of Desoxyn. A prior post suggest there was more abuse of ritalin than desoxyn, which sounds irrelevant, and incredible. My skepticism about the discussion is more about the rah-rah. Whenever someone is too enthusiastic about a stimulant I feel uneasy and recall the "ecstasy is good" rhetoric that me and my friends spouted fifteen years ago.
I haven't seen any comparitive research about dexedrine and desoxyn. I recall how astounded I was to discover that the brain fog and distraction that led me to struggle in grad school just disappeared when I began self-medicating with speed. I got A grades, some funny stories, met some bad people, got underarm cysts from a depressed immune system, and realized that I didn't have the self-control to ration myself from my big plastic bag. It took more than ten years to realize that distraction chaos and confusion were more than character traits. Today dexedrine seemed less effective than methamphetamine (desoxyn + who knows what) was then, but maybe thats just middle aged with kids versus young and no commitments.
So whats my point? There is no profit to be made by selling more dexedrine or desoxyn so we are likely to suffer with more examples of Strattera - less effective ADHD meds thatcan be sold at high prices. The tragedy is that we don't have any controlled studies comparing ritalin, focalin, methamphetamine, and dexedrine or suggesting what subtypes of ADHD or other factors might make one or another a better choice. So we end with either whichever is easiest to prescribe, or if we get a good pdoc we try them all and attempt to work it out for ourselves.
It's a shame.
Posted by Paulbwell on January 19, 2006, at 23:08:07
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by kazoo on April 26, 2000, at 3:22:11
"All amphetamines have the potential for abuse, not just the "methyl version." Also, it is no
more addicting than Dexedrine, Biphetamine or Obetrol, which has been renamed, and remarketed,
as Adderall.
If availability is factored into this "potential for abuse" formula, then Dexedrine, as well
as Ritalin, would set the standard for this unfortunate phenomenon.
Desoxyn is nothing more than an ephedrine/amphetamine mix (desoxyephedrine).
Desoxyn is time-released via its "gradumet" form.
Just what are "subsituted amphetamines"?
The reason why doctors choose not to use Desoxyn is because they don't want the DEA
on their backs. The drug has been stigmatized since the 1960s.
IMHO, the DEA, as well as the FDA, should both take a hike until their hats float."AGREED,
I have either SEVER ADD/HD or bipolar, not sure. Despite Ovation Pharms spending $40 million to Abbort pharms to acquire Desoxyn (and produce an inferior copy, only 5mg IR tabs now, as well as droping the excellent SR 'Gradumets' Docs now more than ever are hesitant to script Desoxyn FOR NEW PATIENTS-thanks meth hysteria.
Reading through books on ADD/HD type disorders, where some folks simply cannot keep their thoughts linear for longer than 5 seconds, SOME people do best on Desoxyn, if they have been lucky enought to trial it. They report that the constant noise and hum that preoccupied their minds, slows down and they can think of things one thing at a time, not to be undervalued if someone has not been able to keep a job, relationship, basically a life.
Some SEVER narcoleptics are only able to live a somewhat normal life by Desoxyn as well, even thoes who have failed high dose Dex and Rit, so theres saviour-even if it is the Ovation Pharms inferior pill (dissolves in 5 mins as opposed to 15 mins for Abborts 5mg IR) and they dropped the effective SR 'Gradumet' tabs, which MANY narcoleptics relied on-I have an aquantaince who took 4-5 15mg 'Gradumets' in the morning and nothing else, all day, and he did well, less so now on 4,5mg IR Ovations Q.I.D.
It's a shame that the "Methamphetamine" name, that has become the catch phrase of the 1990's has to extend to the medication that many found gave them a normal life.
Cheers
Posted by Paulbwell on February 5, 2006, at 23:18:49
In reply to Re: Dexedrine vs Desoxyn, posted by saint james on April 25, 2000, at 14:56:54
> > Can anyone compare these two drugs when used to treat ADD.Is Desoxyn time released? Which is better?
>
> james here....
>
> "Very few doc's use Desoxyn as the methyl version of amphetamine is often abused. As Desoxyn is a long acting amphetamine it does not need to be in a time release formaulation". As Dexadrine is very sucessful with most people with ADD there seems little reason to go to the stronger Desoxyn. Methamphetamine is more addictive than amphetamine. There is some indication that the subsituted amphetamines are more neurotoxic.
>
> james
>
>"Very few doc's use Desoxyn as the methyl version of amphetamine is often abused. As Desoxyn is a long acting amphetamine it does not need to be in a time release formaulation"
Ovations Desoxyn (all that is available now lasts 5-6 hours, from users i have spoken too. Desoxyn Pre 2001 was manufactured in A SR plastic matrix form called 'Gradumets' which lasted 12 hours so...
Desoxyn is used as a last resort resort, or when patients are very stimulant tolerant, or have sever Narcolepsy. It is a very 'awake' med and is often superior for this use, many Narcoleptics have used it, medically, for years with no problem.
Cheers
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