![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Alice on December 25, 1999, at 17:58:28
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by paul on December 25, 1999, at 0:50:37
Marc,
I have taken Klonopin, a benzo, in the past (actually, I am thinking that I would like to go back on it), and I do believe that they act similarly to alcohol.
I suffer from anxiety and social phobia. Believe me, I know how you feel about how alcohol can make you feel happy and social, as if you don't suffer from this disorder at all. Before I was diagnosed with social phobia, or even knew that my problems had a name, I would drink prior to being with friends or social situations. I felt it was the only way to feel "normal" and be social without anxiety, panic attacks, and pain.
However, alcohol has a whole host of other side effects which are negative. It easily leads to abuse and dependence (benzos can too, but not as easily if they are given under a doctors care and control, and the patient is monitored carefully.) Alcohol can completely change a person's personality (usually for the worse) even if it does alleviate them of their social anxiety. Benzos will typically just alliviate the anxiety and allow the person's true personality to come shining through.
This is what I have found to be true...benzos can be a valuable tool for this problem, while alchol is never a solution to anything.
Best of luck,
Alice
Posted by anna on December 27, 1999, at 10:51:46
In reply to Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Marc on December 25, 1999, at 0:05:27
> When I drink I feel so happy and uninhibited by anxiety, especially social anxiety. I know this is normal, but is that what benzos like Valium, Klonopin and Xanax make you feel like? If so, then they're the drug for me. How's this analogy, Benzo:Alcohol::SSRI:Marijuana ?
--
I've used all three (though it has been a millennium since I touched pot). Took xanax, then klonipin for anxiety/panic disorder. Alcohol does not give me the spacy feeling that I recall getting from pot. But a benzo keeps me much more in control then either of the other too, and I don't get silly, or feel dizzy, etc. I can and have taken a bezo before or while working, but a glass of wine makes concentrating hard. I love my wine, but P-doc once said if I had to choose between a benzo and alcohol, to go with the benzo and drink pop!
Posted by Joanne on December 31, 1999, at 7:19:07
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by anna on December 27, 1999, at 10:51:46
> > When I drink I feel so happy and uninhibited by anxiety, especially social anxiety. I know this is normal, but is that what benzos like Valium, Klonopin and Xanax make you feel like? If so, then they're the drug for me. How's this analogy, Benzo:Alcohol::SSRI:Marijuana ?
> --
> I've used all three (though it has been a millennium since I touched pot). Took xanax, then klonipin for anxiety/panic disorder. Alcohol does not give me the spacy feeling that I recall getting from pot. But a benzo keeps me much more in control then either of the other too, and I don't get silly, or feel dizzy, etc. I can and have taken a bezo before or while working, but a glass of wine makes concentrating hard. I love my wine, but P-doc once said if I had to choose between a benzo and alcohol, to go with the benzo and drink pop!
Hi Marc,
As one who used to consume alcohol in great quantities for all the classic reasons,
(to be more sociable, less introverted, to relax, to feel happy, etc.) I have found that alcohol is a deterent to anti-depression treatment. I will only speak for myself in saying that before when I was partying heavily, every night, I thought I was the happiest girl at the bar. However, it was a false happiness based on my view of reality being extremely distorted, my judgment flying out the window, and I became a different person. Destructive things like drugs became extremely appealing to me, and in every area of my life the alcohol caused me to change the way I viewed things. It did not enhance my personality; it took away my intelligence and judgment and almost took me down a path of destruction. For social phobia, I find that Ativan works very well for me, and the Wellbutrin antidepressant as well. Let me know how it goes, and good luck.
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 1, 2000, at 10:30:54
In reply to Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Marc on December 25, 1999, at 0:05:27
> When I drink I feel so happy and uninhibited by anxiety, especially social anxiety. I know this is normal, but is that what benzos like Valium, Klonopin and Xanax make you feel like? If so, then they're the drug for me. How's this analogy, Benzo:Alcohol::SSRI:Marijuana ?
I just wanted to add one thing to this thread.
Both alcohol and benzodiazepines are capable of producing behavioral “disinhibition”. Disinhibition is basically the shutting-down of those neural pathways that would otherwise serve to help control one’s emotions and behaviors. I believe it is the inhibition of the inhibition neurons (thus disinhibition) that allows one to feel less inhibited in social situations. This alone may reduce anxiety, as there would be less cognitive dissonance to create it. This reduction in anxiety may be synergistic with the other anti-anxiety properties these drugs may have.
Disinhibition can be dangerous. It can cause an otherwise docile person to become violent. Perhaps this is the reason some people get loud or truculent when they drink, regardless of what is going on around them. In those infrequent occurrences of benzodiazepine-induced disinhibition, the magnitude of the behavioral effects can be much greater.
- Scott
Posted by Phillip Marx on January 1, 2000, at 16:08:40
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 1, 2000, at 10:30:54
Thanks Scott. That helps.
Hmmmm. Disinhibition explains me to me.
When going to sleep, I have only a half hour or so of “disinhibition” that enables me to write. Un-re-written brainstorming can sound like a storming brain. My higher perfection-control circuits seem to go to sleep first. I suspect that last taught/learned (end-stage training) neurons are less mature and more susceptible biochemically than the so-called primal neuron areas. Those early-life activated neurons may even be significantly geometrically larger and require a much higher external serum concentration of a given medication to achieve the same internal cell concentration or un-defended effect. They sure have a more developed and cross-referenced dendrite and axon temporal advantage. Maybe there’s a membrane surface area scale efficiency effect or age-related permeability curve. Sleep, no longer instantaneous for me, seems PROGRESSIVELY effective against higher (later-life) developed functions first with me. I’ve told several people it feels like truth serum. I don’t drink, so I didn’t think of an alcohol-bartender type dump before.
I also lose the inhibition against writing sloppy and contain (constrain) my thinking to the subject at hand. This lets me write more, which gets out more, but does go on and on uninhibited (disinhibited). Indeed, the freedom is jealous of its freedom and averse to superficial inhibition constraint.
I normally multi-process (multi-thread) as much as possible, not as much as moms, but I do imitate that. I have never been jealous of monotonic thinking anyway. Life doesn’t have to be colorless, lifeless or music-free.
The known deadline of eminent sleep has trained me to force me to decline time-robbing structural control and recursive editing, else my completion-manias will kick in worse. Thus, I sacrifice structure for content since I abhor structure without content. Anyone can put all the pieces together if all the pieces are all there. No one can put all the pieces together if all the pieces aren’t all there.
Can mere disinhibition be read as mania? Especially when most disinhibited at end-stage sleep onset near conk-out? Non-sleep is presumed manic. Is it oxymoronic to think that sleep-onset is manic-like too? If I only write when I am at my worst, then do all the derivative impressions get an honest impression?
Sleep offset is the reverse sequence. I was up late before medicating since I didn’t wish to be unconscious if I needed to be awake. As soon as the rambling wears off, so does the writing inclination. Sense might be nonlinearly inversely proportional to non-sense.
pm
hmmm. Date=000101 military. Binary 666 gag opportunity?> When I drink I feel so happy and uninhibited by anxiety, especially social anxiety. I know this is normal, but is that what benzos like Valium, Klonopin and Xanax make you feel like? If so, then they're the drug for me. How's this analogy, Benzo:Alcohol::SSRI:Marijuana ?
I just wanted to add one thing to this thread.
Both alcohol and benzodiazepines are capable of producing behavioral “disinhibition”. Disinhibition is basically the shutting-down of those neural pathways that would otherwise serve to help control one’s emotions and behaviors. I believe it is the inhibition of the inhibition neurons (thus disinhibition) that allows one to feel less inhibited in social situations. This alone may reduce anxiety, as there would be less cognitive dissonance to create it. This reduction in anxiety may be synergistic with the other anti-anxiety properties these drugs may have.
Disinhibition can be dangerous. It can cause an otherwise docile person to become violent. Perhaps this is the reason some people get loud or truculent when they drink, regardless of what is going on around them. In those infrequent occurrences of benzodiazepine-induced disinhibition, the magnitude of the behavioral effects can be much greater.- Scott
> > When I drink I feel so happy and uninhibited by anxiety, especially social anxiety. I know this is normal, but is that what benzos like Valium, Klonopin and Xanax make you feel like? If so, then they're the drug for me. How's this analogy, Benzo:Alcohol::SSRI:Marijuana ?
>
> I just wanted to add one thing to this thread.
>
> Both alcohol and benzodiazepines are capable of producing behavioral “disinhibition”. Disinhibition is basically the shutting-down of those neural pathways that would otherwise serve to help control one’s emotions and behaviors. I believe it is the inhibition of the inhibition neurons (thus disinhibition) that allows one to feel less inhibited in social situations. This alone may reduce anxiety, as there would be less cognitive dissonance to create it. This reduction in anxiety may be synergistic with the other anti-anxiety properties these drugs may have.
>
> Disinhibition can be dangerous. It can cause an otherwise docile person to become violent. Perhaps this is the reason some people get loud or truculent when they drink, regardless of what is going on around them. In those infrequent occurrences of benzodiazepine-induced disinhibition, the magnitude of the behavioral effects can be much greater.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Phillip Marx on January 1, 2000, at 17:07:29
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 1, 2000, at 10:30:54
Musings, thanks Scott.
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
So. I’m actually presenting as Benzo-drunk.
I’ve never been consciously drunk before, though several have spiked me for contemptuous reasons. I had a girlfriend I almost proposed to who was always trying to get me to share wine with her. I wouldn’t, since she aroused in me a noble, try-to-be-worth-her, aversion to anything disinhibiting. Not marrying her was the worst mistake I ever made for me, the best mistake I ever made for her. Maybe I should have treated it as sage and therapeutic advice instead of relationship-purity-risking advice. Women’s intuition is so unrecognized and under-appreciated. Though she obviously liked me a lot, the harder I tried to make her want to marry me, the unhappier she got. Could “I” have been overdoing it? I had to set her free since true love wants the other’s happiness more than the selfish part of love wants the subject of that love. I am still ashamed of how long it took to take the self-less choice. I was recently amazed (20 years later) to discover how skilled she has become at what ails me most. Regrets compounded factorial. Yet I am happy that she is so much happier than she would have been if she had lived through this, though, if I had taken her advice, maybe I wouldn’t have had to live through this. Temporal paradox! I’m glad God chose what was best for her over what was best for me.
NOW that I know how anti-manic and brain-over-activity function leveling a little wine can be….? http://www.crcpress.com/index.htm?catalog/0630 http://www.crcpress.com/index.htm?catalog/0630 Hmmm. Medicine and alcohol are forbidden mixes. Too late now?
Hmmmm benzo-drunk, benzo-drunk.
How to keep the good part and lose the bad part? Or is mere balance of the two the only thing possible?
Suggestions? Anyone?
pm
> > When I drink I feel so happy and uninhibited by anxiety, especially social anxiety. I know this is normal, but is that what benzos like Valium, Klonopin and Xanax make you feel like? If so, then they're the drug for me. How's this analogy, Benzo:Alcohol::SSRI:Marijuana ?
>
> I just wanted to add one thing to this thread.
>
> Both alcohol and benzodiazepines are capable of producing behavioral “disinhibition”. Disinhibition is basically the shutting-down of those neural pathways that would otherwise serve to help control one’s emotions and behaviors. I believe it is the inhibition of the inhibition neurons (thus disinhibition) that allows one to feel less inhibited in social situations. This alone may reduce anxiety, as there would be less cognitive dissonance to create it. This reduction in anxiety may be synergistic with the other anti-anxiety properties these drugs may have.
>
> Disinhibition can be dangerous. It can cause an otherwise docile person to become violent. Perhaps this is the reason some people get loud or truculent when they drink, regardless of what is going on around them. In those infrequent occurrences of benzodiazepine-induced disinhibition, the magnitude of the behavioral effects can be much greater.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Sam on January 5, 2000, at 1:08:08
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Phillip Marx on January 1, 2000, at 17:07:29
In my opinion, benzodiazepines used as prescribed bear little resemblance to alcohol intoxication. There is no "buzz" or inebriation when used properly, also I think there is less impairment of judgement and other mental faculties. People unacustomed to them or who take large doses may experience some inebriation but generally fall asleep. They also are much less likely to intensify aggressiveness like alcohol can. I also think they are different from other sedatives like barbiturates, meprobamate, methaqualone etc..
Posted by Phillip Marx on January 14, 2000, at 0:27:04
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Sam on January 5, 2000, at 1:08:08
> In my opinion, benzodiazepines used as prescribed bear little resemblance to alcohol intoxication. There is no "buzz" or inebriation when used properly, also I think there is less impairment of judgement and other mental faculties. People unacustomed to them or who take large doses may experience some inebriation but generally fall asleep. They also are much less likely to intensify aggressiveness like alcohol can. I also think they are different from other sedatives like barbiturates, meprobamate, methaqualone etc..
Hmmm. I “didn’t” feel any buzz, and no psychomotor inebriation. I didn’t even know or believe I “was” affected. Lots flowed, which I have severely restricted since. Lots of text flowing easily is a “good” thing to me. I am restricting discourse length (ha, dis-course, geez), not being rude. My judgement felt so unaffected that I defended it. I don’t know what alcohol drunk feels like. But I sure did suddenly learn to enjoy not having to fight rules that took more thought than I had time left for, before lights out. No one gets mad at me during the day. Only my first and last half-hour seems at risk. Good to know. Glad I found out so inexpensively. Cheap, except for the uproar. Abstract writing can attract more attention than is wanted, even from those who don’t want to give it.
For example: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000112/msgs/18893.html
I pasted that response in full HTML with beautiful formatting (exactly matching the APA DSM-IV) and it turned into formatting babble that actually insults MY skills. No wonder other people felt insulted. I don’t think getting my HTML books back is going to help.
pm
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 14, 2000, at 9:03:45
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Phillip Marx on January 14, 2000, at 0:27:04
Hi Phillip,
I was just passing through and decided to stop in and see how you were doing.I know that many people here have "accused" you of being manic or some such thing. That must be very irritating and frustrating, not to mention an unwarranted waste of your time and energies.
It occurred to me that there is an easy and quick way to put this thing to rest. It would certainly allow you time to pursue other urgent issues. Using the DSM IV (questionable value) create a list all of the the items used as criteria for diagnosing bipolar mania. Next to each item, quickly describe why it does not pertain to you.
I've been accused of being manic several times in the passed. Believe me, it was a real pain in the ass.
- Scott
------------------------------------------------------------
> > In my opinion, benzodiazepines used as prescribed bear little resemblance to alcohol intoxication. There is no "buzz" or inebriation when used properly, also I think there is less impairment of judgement and other mental faculties. People unacustomed to them or who take large doses may experience some inebriation but generally fall asleep. They also are much less likely to intensify aggressiveness like alcohol can. I also think they are different from other sedatives like barbiturates, meprobamate, methaqualone etc..
>
> Hmmm. I “didn’t” feel any buzz, and no psychomotor inebriation. I didn’t even know or believe I “was” affected. Lots flowed, which I have severely restricted since. Lots of text flowing easily is a “good” thing to me. I am restricting discourse length (ha, dis-course, geez), not being rude. My judgement felt so unaffected that I defended it. I don’t know what alcohol drunk feels like. But I sure did suddenly learn to enjoy not having to fight rules that took more thought than I had time left for, before lights out. No one gets mad at me during the day. Only my first and last half-hour seems at risk. Good to know. Glad I found out so inexpensively. Cheap, except for the uproar. Abstract writing can attract more attention than is wanted, even from those who don’t want to give it.
>
> For example: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000112/msgs/18893.html
>
> I pasted that response in full HTML with beautiful formatting (exactly matching the APA DSM-IV) and it turned into formatting babble that actually insults MY skills. No wonder other people felt insulted. I don’t think getting my HTML books back is going to help.
>
> pm
Posted by Alfred on January 14, 2000, at 23:29:00
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Phillip Marx on January 14, 2000, at 0:27:04
Yes, icons can be iconoclastic, especially if they are made of plastic. Some time ago I missplaced my thyme, and upon finding it not in the place I remembered placing it, I could not find the time to find the thyme, and thus the sauce was lost without reason or rhyme. Some people value clarity, but not out of charity, but this of course is a most nebulous subject. If you find yourself manic, there is no need to panic, just babble on about Babylon, or comment on commentaries of the aforementioned antic. I some times find myself partially partial to parsley, but if I could find my thyme in time I would find my thyme sublime. Variegated vagueries about somnolent soliloquies tax the facts and thus confound the information so renowned.
Posted by Phillip Marx on January 14, 2000, at 23:33:15
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Alfred on January 14, 2000, at 23:29:00
> Yes, icons can be iconoclastic, especially if they are made of plastic. Some time ago I missplaced my thyme, and upon finding it not in the place I remembered placing it, I could not find the time to find the thyme, and thus the sauce was lost without reason or rhyme. Some people value clarity, but not out of charity, but this of course is a most nebulous subject. If you find yourself manic, there is no need to panic, just babble on about Babylon, or comment on commentaries of the aforementioned antic. I some times find myself partially partial to parsley, but if I could find my thyme in time I would find my thyme sublime. Variegated vagueries about somnolent soliloquies tax the facts and thus confound the information so renowned.
Now THAT was FUN to read.
pm
Posted by Phillip Marx on January 15, 2000, at 1:06:31
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 14, 2000, at 9:03:45
Scott?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17746.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17748.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17757.htmlTerms:
1. Civility the rule, not the exception, not a cold war.
2. Hypocrisy oath, you have to tolerate as much exasperation from me as I have to tolerate from you.
3. Read all statements twice before debunking them for personal reputation safety.According to COCOMO this would take far too long if shortcut hunches not taken advantage of.
Decision tree should really start on page 690.
Caffeine-related-disorders are on page 212.
Biological stress consequences=general medical condition.Precipitating event first:
Page 332 (DSM-IV Fourth edition, paperback) requires 3-4 of 7 symptoms listed under B to qualify as a manic episode thus qualifying such events for other diagnostic considerations.
1)q inflated self-esteem or grandiosity.
1)a The opposite was the course, I had to stoop to taking an extra week+ off work. Grandiose? Well, I did give the doctor the benefit of the doubt for too long.
2)q decreased need for sleep (e.g., feels rested after only 3 hours of sleep)
2)a BIG enough need for sleep to seek doctor relief in very non-macho way, several times, NO sleep, NO relief, deep, deep exhaustion, placebo suspicions related to no perceived sense of eminent sedation relief. Very conscious that unconsciousness was going to need conscious effort, only marginal restoration after 14 days due to a very misunderstood consult.
3)q more talkative than usual or pressure to keep talking.
3)a Isolated at home, trying to make psycho-cybernetics, a year of bio-feedback, distance runners style total body relaxation and karate quiet mode maximize body rest, I couldn’t come up with any better ideas. Comments to doctor: gimme, gimme SOMETHING: thank you, bye. Probably less than 500 words all week.
4)q flight of ideas or subjective experience that thoughts are racing.
4)a Stuck on idea that I was going to miss even more work, that those darn pills aren’t working, that even the hospital wouldn’t take me in for a day for reasons they wouldn’t say, and that my engineering mental database didn’t have any better suggestions, so I was stuck. Recall thoughts are faster than initial draft thoughts, so the millionth time through that very short list of options was a lot faster than the first times. Neurons adapt that way unless there is a disorder preventing it. I must not have been too successful at impressing the doctor with how imperative the situation was getting. He didn’t get white until the last visit before I sorta went to sleep for a while. If I could have thought of anything that would have helped, I would have been willing to race to it, but there was nothing on my flight map of use.
5)q distractability (i.e., attention drawn too easily to easily drawn to unimportant or irrelevant external stimuli).
5)a attention to getting to sleep was getting to be almost manic, everything, even work (my usual highest priority) on down was put on hold.
6)q increase in goal-directed activity (either socially, at work or school, or sexually) or psychomotor agitation.
6)a S/A 5a, nothing social, no work, no school, no sex, total (pre-yoga) body reduced animation.
7)q excessive activities in pleasurable activities that have a high potential for painful consequences (e.g., in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments)
7)a maximum minimization of activities. It wasn’t fun at all. (Well, work was a pleasurable activity with a high potential for painful stress consequences, but insomnia wasn’t one of the expected consequences, hypERsomnia was, and work was the precipitating cause, not the event, course or consequence), no buying sprees, no sex, no business investments (well, work ethic, I did call in and invest a phone call asking for more time off, I was very aware of deterioration with brink caving in)I think that’s 0 for 7 for B. That’s an automatic manic episode criteria applicability abort. The doctor was too used to me under stress. He just thought it was more of the same. I tend to neutralize emotion out of my speech for scientific discourse reasons. It was difficult for me to present to the doctor the imperative nature of the distress. I failed miserably. I should have gone in every day instead of every other day.
This means page 690 should be revisited.
Next time I’ll discuss suggestions of present mania(s), with general medical pre-condition more responsibly noted first.
I am trying to get up early enough tomorrow for a seminar, then several hours helping people consolidate themselves out of near bankruptcy, rototill garden and/or paint fence, then after dark pull up more old tile. Sunday off for God’s brain rest day, then Monday. Gotta rest and store, pool-up, reservoir all those fast think neurotransmitters (allow uptake) for some more contiguous thought at productive speed. That means I’ll start strong, but end up weak when deplete, but not likely before Monday.pm
> Hi Phillip,
>
>
> I was just passing through and decided to stop in and see how you were doing.
>
> I know that many people here have "accused" you of being manic or some such thing. That must be very irritating and frustrating, not to mention an unwarranted waste of your time and energies.
>
> It occurred to me that there is an easy and quick way to put this thing to rest. It would certainly allow you time to pursue other urgent issues. Using the DSM IV (questionable value) create a list all of the the items used as criteria for diagnosing bipolar mania. Next to each item, quickly describe why it does not pertain to you.
>
> I've been accused of being manic several times in the passed. Believe me, it was a real pain in the ass.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > > In my opinion, benzodiazepines used as prescribed bear little resemblance to alcohol intoxication. There is no "buzz" or inebriation when used properly, also I think there is less impairment of judgement and other mental faculties. People unacustomed to them or who take large doses may experience some inebriation but generally fall asleep. They also are much less likely to intensify aggressiveness like alcohol can. I also think they are different from other sedatives like barbiturates, meprobamate, methaqualone etc..
> >
> > Hmmm. I “didn’t” feel any buzz, and no psychomotor inebriation. I didn’t even know or believe I “was” affected. Lots flowed, which I have severely restricted since. Lots of text flowing easily is a “good” thing to me. I am restricting discourse length (ha, dis-course, geez), not being rude. My judgement felt so unaffected that I defended it. I don’t know what alcohol drunk feels like. But I sure did suddenly learn to enjoy not having to fight rules that took more thought than I had time left for, before lights out. No one gets mad at me during the day. Only my first and last half-hour seems at risk. Good to know. Glad I found out so inexpensively. Cheap, except for the uproar. Abstract writing can attract more attention than is wanted, even from those who don’t want to give it.
> >
> > For example: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000112/msgs/18893.html
> >
> > I pasted that response in full HTML with beautiful formatting (exactly matching the APA DSM-IV) and it turned into formatting babble that actually insults MY skills. No wonder other people felt insulted. I don’t think getting my HTML books back is going to help.
> >
> > pm
Posted by Sam on January 15, 2000, at 1:53:49
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Phillip Marx on January 15, 2000, at 1:06:31
Could you briefly list your troubling symptoms? I am not a psychiatrist but I might be able to help you.
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 7:48:37
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Phillip Marx on January 15, 2000, at 1:06:31
Was I uncivil?I thought that what I wrote would be in some way helpful.
I apologize to anyone who was offended.
- Scott
------------------------------------------------------
Scott to Phillip:
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Phillip Marx on January 14, 2000, at 0:27:04
Hi Phillip,I was just passing through and decided to stop in and see how you were doing.
I know that many people here have "accused" you of being manic or some such thing. That must be very irritating and frustrating, not to mention an unwarranted waste of your time and energies.
It occurred to me that there is an easy and quick way to put this thing to rest. It would certainly allow you time to pursue other urgent issues. Using the DSM IV (questionable value) create a list all of the the items used as criteria for diagnosing bipolar mania. Next to each item, quickly describe why it does not pertain to you.
I've been accused of being manic several times in the passed. Believe me, it was a real pain in the ass.
- Scott
------------------------------------------------------
Phillip to Scott
Scott?http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17746.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17748.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17757.htmlTerms:
1. Civility the rule, not the exception, not a cold war.
2. Hypocrisy oath, you have to tolerate as much exasperation from me as I have to tolerate from you.
3. Read all statements twice before debunking them for personal reputation safety.According to COCOMO this would take far too long if shortcut hunches not taken advantage of.
------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 8:08:42
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Phillip Marx on January 15, 2000, at 1:06:31
Dear Phillip,
I had a difficult time reading through your reply post. I'm one of the lucky ones for whom dementia is one of the prominent symptoms of depression. That's not to say that I didn't try. You seem to contradict yourself on numerous occasions. Perhaps my cognitive impairments prevent me from putting things together.I haven't been reading all of your posts over the past few weeks, so I don't know where you are with things.
Let us, for a moment, pretent that I am not trying to act as your adversary, but rather as a concerned friend.
I have only two questions. They each *require* a simple one word reply:
YES or NO
---------------------------------------------
Q: Are you currently manic?
Q: Have you ever been manic?
---------------------------------------------Sincerly,
Scott
Posted by Noa on January 15, 2000, at 9:42:32
In reply to Re: Phillip, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 8:08:42
Scott, you asked for feedback. From what I read of the past few posts, I don't think you were being uncivil.
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 9:54:52
In reply to => Was I uncivil ? - Need feedback <=, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 7:48:37
I just want to make certain that people don't misinterpret any of my statements in the post found below. These statements should be read within the context as being motivated by constructive rather than destructive intent. Sarcasm was not intended.
- Scott
--------------------------------------------------------
> I know that many people here have "accused" you of being manic or some such thing. That must be very irritating and frustrating, not to mention an unwarranted waste of your time and energies.> It occurred to me that there is an easy and quick way to put this thing to rest. It would certainly allow you time to pursue other urgent issues. Using the DSM IV (questionable value) create a list all of the the items used as criteria for diagnosing bipolar mania. Next to each item, quickly describe why it does not pertain to you.
> I've been accused of being manic several times in the passed. Believe me, it was a real pain in the ass.
Posted by Noa on January 15, 2000, at 10:03:42
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 14, 2000, at 9:03:45
> I've been accused of being manic several times in the passed. Believe me, it was a real pain in the ass.
>
>
Scott, I am sad to read that the questions/suggestions about being manic seem like "accusations". To me, an accusation is a claim that one has DONE something WRONG. It implies some control over what is going on. In contrast, I see manic symptoms as something no one would ever ask for, nor can control. Speaking for myself, when I mentioned the idea to Phillip, it was out of concern, and certainly not at attack on him, his character, or his actions. Just some feedback.A number of years ago, after moving to a new location, and after having had a few good years, relatively depression-free, I started seeing a new therapist. I thought the issue at hand was having broken up with a boyfriend. She confronted me with the idea that I have a "lifelong" depression that needed pharmacological treatment. I had prided myself in "overcoming" my depression, and did not want to accept the idea that it was of a recurring variety. I was hurt and angry at her. I think this was in part because the idea of recurring depression raises the spectre of having to deal with it the rest of my life. All of my hope until then had been placed in the basket of thinking of my depression as something I had and am done with. Of course, I came to see that she was right.
I have had other disillusionments since then. All the hope I placed in different meds, or combos thereof, or in certain changes I made in my life. I now know that it is all so complex. What I am working on now is the idea that having a recurring form of this illness doesn't have to mean hopelessness. This isn't easy, though, because it has felt like every time I am beginning to get my life in gear, I am whalloped with another episode of bad depression. This makes it hard to let go of the constant feelings of futility and anxiety. So, my goal is to try to get and maintain control over the severe episodes. If I can get some stability back, then I might be able to start feeling some long term hopefulness.
Why am I telling you all of this? Because I think stability is the key. Trying to get control over the cycling, whether you have unipolar or bipolar, is a necessary first step. That is why people, myself included, might have confronted Phillip, or others before, to provide honest feedback that he is giving an impression of having manic symptoms. Not at all an accusation.
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 10:06:47
In reply to Re: => Was I uncivil ? - Need feedback <=, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 9:54:52
> I just want to make certain that people don't misinterpret any of my statements in the post found below. These statements should be read within the context as being motivated by constructive rather than destructive intent. Sarcasm was not intended.
Oh...Just to make doubly certain, I do not believe the DSM IV to be of questionable value.
> > Using the DSM IV (questionable value) create a list...
- Scott
Posted by judy on January 15, 2000, at 10:23:10
In reply to Re: => Was I uncivil ? - Need feedback <=, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 10:06:47
Hi, I've received a lot of enjoyment reading this thread and being diagnosed bipolar 1, rapid cycling which I think is a bunch of sh*t, Phillip you make perfect sense, i love you're style of writing, but Alfred your response is similar to what got me my label. Have a great day!
Posted by Mrs. G on January 15, 2000, at 10:24:39
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 14, 2000, at 9:03:45
It did not look like Scott was uncivil. I don't think it was taken that way. Phillip stated in one of his posts that he is bipolar and an insomniac. Manic-depressives, of course, are bipolar. He is also very, very well-read, humorous, a good writer, and a whiz on the computer. We are all interested in this forum because of our own problems. He is no different than the rest of us who are seeking hope and understanding. Scott writes beautifully and very compassionately. No offense should be taken where none was intended.
Posted by Phillip Marx on January 15, 2000, at 10:26:23
In reply to Re: Phillip, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 8:08:42
Phil(1): (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17746.html)
? I'll respond soon, point by point, to what is already written, in a separate post I have already begun composition of.Scott(1): (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991212/msgs/17748.html)
I will not even begin to read beyond the first few sentences before replying.
This is not a war and I plan not to take part in one.Phil(2): (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000112/msgs/18957.html)
Terms:
1. Civility the rule, not the exception, not a cold war.
War was never intended, you are the only one who wrote war. Un-civility not accused by me, just a warning only that you will be talking to no-one but yourself if the discussion leads that way.Scott(2): (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000112/msgs/18921.html)
I know that many people here have "accused" you of being manic or some such thing. That must be very irritating and frustrating, not to mention an unwarranted waste of your time and energies.
It occurred to me that there is an easy and quick way to put this thing to rest. It would certainly allow you time to pursue other urgent issues. Using the DSM IV (questionable value) create a list all of the the items used as criteria for diagnosing bipolar mania. Next to each item, quickly describe why it does not pertain to you.
I've been accused of being manic several times in the passed. Believe me, it was a real pain in the ass.- Scott
Scott(3) (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000112/msgs/18972.html)
Dear Phillip,
I had a difficult time reading through your reply post. I'm one of the lucky ones for whom dementia is one of the prominent symptoms of depression. That's not to say that I didn't try. You seem to contradict yourself on numerous occasions. Perhaps my cognitive impairments prevent me from putting things together.
I haven't been reading all of your posts over the past few weeks, so I don't know where you are with things.
Let us, for a moment, pretent that I am not trying to act as your adversary, but rather as a concerned friend.
I have only two questions. They each *require* a simple one word reply:
YES or NO
---------------------------------------------
Q: Are you currently manic?
Q: Have you ever been manic?
---------------------------------------------
Sincerly,
ScottPhil000115 – on way to seminar, no time to deal with bait-and-switch questions, line-by-line or bottom line. Line-by-line is the bottom line.
1. What “NON-questionable value” reference are you using that is better than DSM-IV?
2. Name the numerous “seeming” contradictions.
3.Point detailed previously fails to fully qualify as mania per APA specs, what specs are you using?
4. Points to be detailed later will similarly fail to certifiably qualify, perhaps I need to know what criteria you use and how accredited are they? Enlighten me.
5. It seems to beget less protest to write on the terse side and get asked for more than to write on the lengthy side and get asked for less. Is that on purpose, how can it be so consistent?I have always conceded manic-like = almost like manic. Testing by DSM-IV, I am outside even atypical range.
pm
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 11:34:04
In reply to Re: Are Benzodiazepines Like Alcohol?, posted by Noa on January 15, 2000, at 10:03:42
> > I've been accused of being manic several times in the passed. Believe me, it was a real pain in the ass.
> >
> >
> Scott, I am sad to read that the questions/suggestions about being manic seem like "accusations". To me, an accusation is a claim that one has DONE something WRONG. It implies some control over what is going on. In contrast, I see manic symptoms as something no one would ever ask for, nor can control. Speaking for myself, when I mentioned the idea to Phillip, it was out of concern, and certainly not at attack on him, his character, or his actions. Just some feedback.
--------------------------------------------------
Please don't be sad.Of course I recognize, agree, and act with all of these things in mind!!
Please reread the post carefully. Pay particular attention to the intended use of the quotation marks.
I have seen mania first hand. I have been both hypomanic and psychotically manic. I have also observed others in both manic and hypomanic states. Let's just say that I may have some insight into the workings of a manic mind. I constructed my post strategically and with great care. One of the most difficult things to do is to convince someone who is in a manic state that they are indeed manic and need treatment. They feel great. They feel even better than great. In their eyes, they see themselves as being perhaps a genius and more capable of taking on any challenge that comes their way. They are, of course, displaying the illusions of grandeur that often develop in a manic state. They see any attempt to "stop" their superior and hyperfunctual state as being an attack. To try to tell them that they are manic is an "accusation". With so many people telling them that something is wrong and that they need some sort of intervention, they can often become paranoid or combative. It is imperative to them that they explain away each contention made regarding the "accusations" (symptoms) levied against them that support the "argument" that they are manic.
I hope this clears things up.
Was the mission of the post successful?
Perhaps in some ways it was. Unfortunately, the ultimate goal of getting Phillip to a doctor was not. Actually,he may not need any help at all. I'm not a doctor and I don't feel like getting flamed today. If he would indeed benefit from some sort of intervention, perhaps the post has brought him one step closer.
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> "In contrast, I see manic symptoms as something no one would ever ask for, nor can control."This is not always true.
- Scott
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 11:49:02
In reply to Re: Phillip, posted by Phillip Marx on January 15, 2000, at 10:26:23
It is just my observation that you spent 543 words without answering my two simple YES/NO questions.
> I have only two questions. They each *require* a simple one word reply:YES or NO
---------------------------------------------
Q: Are you currently manic?
Q: Have you ever been manic?
---------------------------------------------Again - Sincerely
Scott
Posted by Sam on January 15, 2000, at 18:46:33
In reply to Feedback on feedback, posted by Scott L. Schofield on January 15, 2000, at 11:34:04
I have to agree with Scott. This could be mania or leading up to psychosis. This is based on my own subjective experiences. Nipping it in the bud would be a wise strategy. Without further information nothing is clear.
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