![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by Racer on October 23, 1999, at 1:04:09
In reply to Re: Can you get samples of another drug? Samples of ?, posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 0:48:55
Aside from the Effexor issue, I'm both curious about other people's experience of brittle reactions and depression - and also worried and scared about the blood sugar thing.
It's been so long since I've dealt with ups and downs this way, that I don't remember what to do! It's easy to say that I should eat if I'm getting hypoglycemic, but it's not that simple. Eating may bring it up, but my experience today reminds me that eating may lead to a reaction that sends me spinning down even further.
So far, the depression isn't coming back in force. Monday I can check with the company about where my meds are. It's not that I can't get them, just that the company hasn't responded YET. It's only been about two months, and they do say it can take six to eight weeks. I'll get a week's worth tomorrow at the store, courtesy of my mother.
For anyone who doesn't know about what goes on during a hypoglycemic episode, it's got a lot in common with depression: today, I went shopping. I was looking for a vase for my cousin for Christmas. A salesman walked over and asked if he could help me find something... Normal, right? My reaction: I wanted to run away and hide, was sure I was doing something wrong and he was going to 'chase' me out or something. Doesn't that sound something like what depression can do to one? "I am in the wrong, I need to hide from this person..." In this case, though, it was my first clue that my sugar had dropped again. Feeling 'wrong', just generically wrong that way, that's usually a clue for me that I've gone into hypoglycemia, and need to fix it. I wonder how much of the worthless, wrong, gotta get away feelings that depression always brings on for me have something to do with the sugar stuff?
Anyone else?
(BTW: it's been about 7 or 8 years since I got this under control. I haven't had much trouble for all that time, so this is a bit of a shock to me now. And I'm wildly out of control already. Since I haven't had a problem for so long, and since it's diet-controlled at this point, I don't even know what to do with the high readings anymore... Any input is appreciated.)
Posted by saint james on October 23, 1999, at 1:04:36
In reply to Re: Can you get samples of another drug? Samples of ?, posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 0:48:55
> SaintJames, I think the previous post was saying that WITHDRAWAL from effexor is known to make people feel bad. Especially rapid withdrawal.
james here....
I does seem that way for many but I can stop cold turkey with no problems.
j
Posted by Jeff on October 23, 1999, at 1:36:28
In reply to Re: Can you get samples of another drug? Samples of ?, posted by saint james on October 23, 1999, at 1:04:36
> > SaintJames, I think the previous post was saying that WITHDRAWAL from effexor is known to make people feel bad. Especially rapid withdrawal.
>
> james here....
>
> I does seem that way for many but I can stop cold turkey with no problems.
>
> jJames,
Great bud...good for you...you've also mentioned that you can handle large doses of just about any med before experiencing any side effects. I guess that would put you in the minority since most the postings here pertain to med side effects. I went through hellish effexor withdrawel and I've found others that work. Dont get so damned defensive...you act like you've been attacked personally...if you dont have any helpful info to post why do it?
sincerely Jeff
Posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 8:39:17
In reply to Re: Can you get samples of another drug? Samples of ?, posted by saint james on October 23, 1999, at 3:38:25
Racer, I don't know anything about diabetes. But I wanted to say that it sounds like a lot to deal with when it does get unbalanced. My only experience with hypoglycemia is much milder than what you are talking about. I find that my blood sugar goes down if I don't eat by a late morning. I will suddenly feel spacy, jittery, anxious, confused, and for a few moments I don't know why. I find myself trying to do work and unable to figure out what to do. I have learned to stop and ask myself "why is this happening" rather than automatically assuming it is my depression. And, of course, when I ask myself the question, I always realize, "oh, I forgot to eat anything today". Then I take a break to eat, and within 30 minutes I am better and able to get back to work. I try not to forget to eat, but it is hard for me to eat first thing in the morning sometimes, so I bring coffee and food to work and eat it there, but sometimes things get so busy so fast, I forget to eat. I work in a school, and we are in a new building that has a decent food service, so that helps now. The staff can buy meal prepaid meal cards, so I don't have to worry about having cash with me. And, lunch starts fairly early, because the kids have to eat in shifts, so if I forget breakfast, I can get lunch at 11 am. I am trying to keep on a fairly regular eating schedule, just like I am trying (struggling) to establish a regular sleep schedule. This means remembering to keep some time open during the day to go get lunch, and since it is so easy to do now with the cafeteria, I have been doing better. Anyway this is a long post for someone who has little to say about the subject you are asking about. I guess my main point is that yes, I can relate to hypoglycemia/depression association, but can only imagine what it must be like for someone with a much more severe hypoglycemia experience, because even my mild experience seems to have pretty distinct effects. Racer, I also wonder if you have asked this question on a diabetes bulletin board. Keep us posted.
Posted by saint james on October 23, 1999, at 8:47:23
In reply to Bringing it back to Racer, posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 8:39:17
> Racer, I don't know anything about diabetes. But I wanted to say that it sounds like a lot to deal with when it does get unbalanced.
James here....
Thanks Noa for reminding us what the thread is about !
j
Posted by Racer on October 23, 1999, at 14:14:41
In reply to Bringing it back to Racer, posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 8:39:17
I haven't asked this specific question on a diabetes board, because, just as a lot of you don't know much about diabetes, a lot of diabetics don't know much about depression! I know that if I said, "hey, do you get depressed when your BG swings" everyone would say, 'sure' without really meaning depression as we know it... I'm wondering if the fact that both go so wildly out of control at similar times is common, and if anyone has read any studies about this.
I'm also wondering if anyone here has ever been checked during a crisis to see if they may be experiencing a physical trigger to their mood disorder. For example, anyone ever had a GTT during a major depression? Any doctors ever mentioned anything like that?
I'm mostly curious about it, but I also think it's an interesting question...
Posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 20:19:57
In reply to Re: Bringing it back to Racer, posted by Racer on October 23, 1999, at 14:14:41
GTT???
Posted by Racer on October 23, 1999, at 21:05:27
In reply to Re: Bringing it back to Racer, posted by Noa on October 23, 1999, at 20:19:57
> GTT???
Glucose Tolerance Test...
Sorry...
It's one of those techie things, I also discuss GUIs and clock speed as though my students can understand them at times... Just remind me that it's a sickness. The Acronymic Meaning Interpretative Syndrome: Independent Learning Likely to be Yellow version, or AmISilly?...
OK, I'm going to the Hardware Store now... What a romantic Saturday night...
Posted by Bob on October 23, 1999, at 21:30:50
In reply to GTT: for Noa..., posted by Racer on October 23, 1999, at 21:05:27
Yes you are! (silly)
> OK, I'm going to the Hardware Store now... What a romantic Saturday night...
Geez, you shoulda given me a call, racer, I love the hardware store on a saturday night ... Home Depot?
;^)
Bob
Posted by Tom on October 23, 1999, at 22:33:43
In reply to Re: Can you get samples of another drug? Samples of ?, posted by saint james on October 23, 1999, at 1:04:36
> > SaintJames, I think the previous post was saying that WITHDRAWAL from effexor is known to make people feel bad. Especially rapid withdrawal.
>
> james here....
>
> I does seem that way for many but I can stop cold turkey with no problems.
>
> jRacer,
Get your Effexor in your hands as soon as humanly possilble. Rapid withdrawl from this drug is like a torture rack. It will most likely feel like hell on earth, regardless of the miracle withdrawls some others may post on this site.
One man's opinion...
Posted by anonymous on October 24, 1999, at 1:17:25
In reply to Racer, get your effexor as sooooon as possible., posted by Tom on October 23, 1999, at 22:33:43
Hi Racer,
I have both hypoglycemia and bipolar disorder. My BG doesn't swing like my moods do, but when it drops like it has a tendency to do, it really drops. I scared the shit out of the nurses at my GTT. :) I think that it is most important for you to really work at keeping your diabetes under control. Is it insulin dependent? If not, maybe you should discuss with your doctor what medications you should try out. In any case, I have almost all the same feelings in a BG drop as I do in a major depression-- I can feel the difference, and one goes away drinking orange juice, but it just screws with your mind so much that I hope you can get it back under control. Other than that, I don't find my moods and sugar to be very related-- I can be very depressed and keep my blood sugar at 100 the whole time! But as soon as it drops, watch out. Good luck.
Posted by Rick on October 24, 1999, at 1:33:03
In reply to Racer, get your effexor as sooooon as possible., posted by Tom on October 23, 1999, at 22:33:43
Racer --
This is probably the first thing you checked, but I feel obliged to ask: Are you sure your glucose meter and strips are working properly? They CAN go haywire and start giving oddball readings. Have you done the control solution tests, etc.? Also, blood changes (e.g., a large drop in the number of red cells) can cause finger stick readings to vary markedly from lab tests. So can dehydration.
Are you currently taking any other meds, especially psychotropics? These can certainly affect blood sugar, and their effects may have been altered in the absence of Effexor. Lithium, in fact can do so directly through dehydration.
While this is simply a guess, it sounds like this roller-coaster may be indeed be a temporary but troubling Effexor withdrawal symtom. I'm probably WAY out of my knowledge league with this theory, but here goes: Even though I don't snack at night, my before-breakfast blood sugar ranges anywhere from 0-25 points HIGHER than when I went to sleep. This is due to a "dawn phenomenon" that many people have (diabetic, glucose impaired, and non-diabetic) in which the body releases blood sugar in tandem with hormones such as adrenaline, in preparation to face the day's stresses and energy requirements. Now, if I understand correctly, Effexor works to keep some of these hormones locked up in the brain. Maybe with the Effexor withdrawal, there's a hormonal imbalance that's violating your body's expectations, and it's unsure of how much blood sugar to release and when, i.e., struggling to get back in balance (probably successfully, eventually).
As for psychological effects on blood sugar, it's long been known that stress can have a big impact on levels and control -- and you're certainly experiencing your share of stress now! And I have seen some very recent study findings on the net that show a strong correlation between diabetes and depression. If I recall correctly, the article said that, surprisingly, the latter was usually appears first. I'll be back if I can locate the link; perhaps you can use that to help convince them you need more Effexor NOW.
Regardless, see a doctor!
Rick
Posted by Rick on October 24, 1999, at 3:10:15
In reply to Re: Racer, get your effexor as sooooon as possible., posted by Rick on October 24, 1999, at 1:33:03
First, a correction: I meant to say that Effexor
could have been keeping noradrenaline from being
locked up in your brain (I left out some words and
thus ended up saying just the opposite).While it's important to see a doctor, and to
hopefully get your Effexor back soon, I think the
best thing you can do is stay calm. Unless
there's some strange, major secondary cause --
which is highly unlikely -- someone with
non-med-treated diabetes (i.e., baseline mild
glycemic variantion) is going to suddenly change
overnight. Like Anonymous said, it's normal to
feel depressed when your blood sugar swings low.
I believe the more you worry about it, the more
fluctuation you'll have, and the longer it will
take you to get back under smooth control.
Below is something I snipped from an article at
www.diabetes.org entitled "The Psychologist and Diabetes Care". In addition, along the lines I
mentioned in the last post, Medline has a 1999
article which tracked Japanese men over an eight
year period. It found that those who had some
history of depression at the beginning of the
study were more than twice as likely to
develop Type 2 diabetes by the end of the
study. Both of these (along with my wild theory) would seem to suggest that getting back your Effexor would be a wise move, especially if you have a history of depression or anxiety. (Noetheless, I reiterate that my purely UNprofessional opinion is that the wild swing you are going through now will calm down after awhile.)Good Luck. And in the *unlikely* event that your
diabetes has suddenly worsened significantly, it's nice to know that an amazing amount of progress is being made towards treatment -- and CURE doesn't
look all that far off!
----------Psychopathology and Diabetes
Approximately one-third of patients with diabetes have diagnosable psychological problems at some point during their lifetime.2 Affective and anxiety disorders are the most common diagnoses and occur significantly more often in patients with diabetes than in the general U.S. population. These disorders can lead to poor glycemic control through alterations in neurohormonal and neurotransmitter functioning and through disruption in diabetes self-care.
Posted by Rick on October 24, 1999, at 3:28:23
In reply to Re: Racer - follow-up to my last post, posted by Rick on October 24, 1999, at 3:10:15
If I HAVE to leave out a word, why is it always the one that completely changes the meaning of the sentence?! My excuse is that it is now 3 a.m. Hopefully you can tell what I really meant to say through context.
Anyways, of course I was trying to say that it is *NOT* likely that you're going to have a sudden, permanent change in blood sugar control, regardless of Effexor use.
Now, I shall carefully read every sentence in this box before I click "submit". O.K., here goes...!click! (just watch me hit the "Reset" button...)
Posted by Diane on October 24, 1999, at 11:35:54
In reply to BG and Depression, posted by anonymous on October 24, 1999, at 1:17:25
> Hi Racer,
> I have both hypoglycemia and bipolar disorder. My BG doesn't swing like my moods do, but when it drops like it has a tendency to do, it really drops. I scared the shit out of the nurses at my GTT. :) I think that it is most important for you to really work at keeping your diabetes under control. Is it insulin dependent? If not, maybe you should discuss with your doctor what medications you should try out. In any case, I have almost all the same feelings in a BG drop as I do in a major depression-- I can feel the difference, and one goes away drinking orange juice, but it just screws with your mind so much that I hope you can get it back under control. Other than that, I don't find my moods and sugar to be very related-- I can be very depressed and keep my blood sugar at 100 the whole time! But as soon as it drops, watch out. Good luck.http://www.diabetesmonitor.com/metf-qa.htm
Posted by Racer on October 24, 1999, at 15:39:12
In reply to Re: GTT: too too funny!, posted by Bob on October 23, 1999, at 21:30:50
> Yes you are! (silly)
>
> > OK, I'm going to the Hardware Store now... What a romantic Saturday night...
>
> Geez, you shoulda given me a call, racer, I love the hardware store on a saturday night ... Home Depot?Orchard Supply Hardware! And it was MY idea to go there with my ex-boyfriend... He already thinks I'm a little ... strange! Now my new boyfriend knows I love hardware stores, too! So, I'm a propellerhead. And?
>
> ;^)
> Bob
Posted by Racer on October 24, 1999, at 15:48:09
In reply to Re: BG & metformin(GlucophageŽ) ?, posted by Diane on October 24, 1999, at 11:35:54
All this was put into perspective for me the other day: while spikes are rare for me (other than dawn phenomena), so I usually get more upset by them, the fact that I've been averaging about 65 lately is really more of a problem. It means that my usual insulin resistance is fluctuating...
Also, thanks for the information about the neurotransmitters effected by Effexor... I hadn't thought of a direct influence like that. That's probably very much involved.
The glucometer is fine, in fact it was just replaced and recalibrated and retested a couple of weeks ago. Part of this is that I'm seeing a diabetic now, who reminds me to check myself more frequently than I have been for a while. The wild swings that I've been having the last few weeks are new, but I'm probably more aware of them just because I'm checking rather than guessing...
So, now to go back to better self-care.
Tell me, though, what are you reading about a cure? (Not like it's of any interest to me, right?)
Posted by Rick on October 24, 1999, at 19:01:16
In reply to Thanks Rick..., posted by Racer on October 24, 1999, at 15:48:09
You're welcome. I know from my first experience seven months ago with a fasting glucose test how easy it is for an aberrational reading (and the #@$!$%! ADA's and diabetes experts' well-intentioned but amazingly arbitrary and inflexible guidelines) to send you reeling.
(Please don't lure me onto THAT soapbox! You should have seen the nasty things I said to the didactic "Expert" of Lifescan's "Ask The Expert" feature after her umpteenth repetition of that pet phrase, "there is no such thing as 'a LITTLE diabetic...that's like being a LITTLE pregnant'". Don't they understand the concepts of continuous vs. discrete measurements; or false positives; or...uh oh, I'm getting started...)
For myself, even though my last two (of three total) official fasting glucose tests came out to 97 and 93 (compared to a diabetes defintion of two fasting readings of 126+ ... ratcheted down from the previous 140 cutoff in 1997), I sometimes veer into the "impaired" range (110-125) using fingerstick -- and even beyond 125 once or twice evry 2-3 months. Now, I've seen studies that say brand new drugs like Actos were extremely effective in stopping possible progression of impaired glucose into "official" diabetes by easing insulin resistance. It CAN'T cause hypoglycemia (assuming no other diabetes meds or insulin are used), and it has some benefits unrelated to diabetes as well. So I am thinking of trying to obtain this med, even though its FDA indication is strictly for those who have been diagnosed as diabetec (Type 2). I like the concept of prevention in the face of possible risk. Of course, I probably worry too much myself.
Anyways, pasted below is an example of the kind of "possible cure" talk that's been accelerating of late. Sorry that it ended up sqooshed (or is that squished) in the pasting process. Although they don't explicitly say so, it sounds like they're talking about insulin-dependent DB here.
Rick
---------
PASTED ARTICLE:British Researchers Say Closer To Diabetes Cure
02:38 a.m. Aug 19, 1999 Eastern
By David Luhnow
EDINBURGH (Reuters) - British medical researchers said Wednesday they had taken big steps toward finding an eventual cure for diabetes, a disease that affects millions worldwide and forces them to take daily insulin injections.
Researchers at several British universities have discovered a way to artificially grow and genetically modify human cells which, when transplanted into the body, would control the flow of insulin, a leading researcher said.
New funding from Britain's Juvenile Diabetes Foundation will allow a team at Aberdeen University in Scotland to carry out laboratory trials of the cells and pave the way for human testing within five years.
``This is an important development and offers a novel approach to a very different treatment to diabetes and could also help find a cure,´´ Kevin Docherty, head of molecular biology at Aberdeen University, told Reuters.
Diabetes affects some 1.5 million people in Britain and roughly 50 million people worldwide. The discovery of insulin in 1922 freed many from the disease's death sentence, but there has been little new progress since then.
Because diabetes patients cannot produce enough insulin, a vital hormone that regulates blood sugar levels, transplanting insulin-secreting cells from the pancreas has long been seen as offering a possible cure.
But the problem has always been the scarcity of donors and destruction of the cells by the body's immune system.
A major advance came when researchers at Leicester University successfully grew insulin-secreting tissue from the pancreas of children suffering a rare disease known as neonatal hypoglycemia -- a condition where too much insulin is produced.
Docherty's team at Aberdeen was then able to successfully genetically alter the cells to regulate their insulin flows.
Because the cells are made in a lab, researchers should find it easier to make them resist attack from the immune system.
``This is just one approach to finding an eventual cure, but in combination with other work being done, it holds great promise,´´ Docherty said.
The new funding, which comes from the National Lottery Charities board, was announced Tuesday.
-------> All this was put into perspective for me the other day: while spikes are rare for me (other than dawn phenomena), so I usually get more upset by them, the fact that I've been averaging about 65 lately is really more of a problem. It means that my usual insulin resistance is fluctuating...
>
> Also, thanks for the information about the neurotransmitters effected by Effexor... I hadn't thought of a direct influence like that. That's probably very much involved.
>
> The glucometer is fine, in fact it was just replaced and recalibrated and retested a couple of weeks ago. Part of this is that I'm seeing a diabetic now, who reminds me to check myself more frequently than I have been for a while. The wild swings that I've been having the last few weeks are new, but I'm probably more aware of them just because I'm checking rather than guessing...
>
> So, now to go back to better self-care.
>
> Tell me, though, what are you reading about a cure? (Not like it's of any interest to me, right?)
Posted by Racer on October 24, 1999, at 22:01:46
In reply to Re: Thanks Rick..., posted by Rick on October 24, 1999, at 19:01:16
Hm...
Of course, we've been reading about implanted cells for a decade, at least, but this one sounds more promising than the other studies I've read of...
Since my fasting levels change easily, and since I do experience dawn phenomenon, I guess that makes me full blown, though I usually describe myself as 'borderline', just because it has been so very well controlled for so long now. Well, that's really semantics, ain't it? Day to day, I just have to work to get it back under control, and to keep it there.
Getting some more Effexor would be a good thing, since it sounds as though that has been part of keeping me stable lately. Hm...
Thanks again for all the input.
Posted by Rick on October 25, 1999, at 1:04:35
In reply to Re: Thanks Rick..., posted by Racer on October 24, 1999, at 22:01:46
Neither dawn phenomenon nor variable fasting readings necessarily make you diabetic at all, let alone "full blown". Dawn phenomenon (overnight rise in blood sugar) is common among many people whose glucose gets nowhere near diabetic levels. And variation alone doesn't make you diabetic either. Some people fail the Hemoglobin A1C blood test (the one that estimates your blood sugar control over the last 2-3 months), yet are not considered diabetic because they pass the fasting glucose tests (which constitute the current "official" method for diagnosing diabetes).
Over the last eight months, I have terrorized almost a dozen (former) friends and family members by making them take finger stick tests. These were all people whose routine fasting glucose lab tests showed no indication of diabetes. Yet many came up with fasting readings near or over 126, and some had after-meal readings of well over 200 (supposedly suggestive of diabetes). And my meter IS accurate.
While tight blood sugar control is ideal, it's clear to me that even non-diabetics have wide swings for various reasons (including medications, stress, and more), and that a lot of people are labeled "diabetic" because of the arbitrary rules and unlucky timing of their lab tests. Funny how, when the official diabetes cutoff was lowered from 140 mg/dl to 126, millions of people on earth went to bed non-diabetic and woke up with an incurable disease. I guess God was in a bad mood that night.
I apologize for my cynicism, but it honks me off to see statistical ESTIMATES, based on a continuom derived from averages, falsely presented to people as ABSOLUTE cutoff points. If you stay at 125, you DON'T have an incurable disease; if you veer one point higher, you have developed an incurable disease for life. Hogwash!! This may indeed scare some people into taking care of themselves, but in many cases it probably actually *worsens* their progress by creating undue anxiety or even depression.
OK, I'm off my soapbox now.
Rick
-----> Hm...
>
> Of course, we've been reading about implanted cells for a decade, at least, but this one sounds more promising than the other studies I've read of...
>
> Since my fasting levels change easily, and since I do experience dawn phenomenon, I guess that makes me full blown, though I usually describe myself as 'borderline', just because it has been so very well controlled for so long now. Well, that's really semantics, ain't it? Day to day, I just have to work to get it back under control, and to keep it there.
>
> Getting some more Effexor would be a good thing, since it sounds as though that has been part of keeping me stable lately. Hm...
>
> Thanks again for all the input.
Posted by Racer on October 25, 1999, at 3:02:11
In reply to Re: Thanks Rick..., posted by Rick on October 25, 1999, at 1:04:35
> Neither dawn phenomenon nor variable fasting readings necessarily make you diabetic at all, let alone "full blown". Dawn phenomenon (overnight rise in blood sugar) is common among many people whose glucose gets nowhere near diabetic levels. And variation alone doesn't make you diabetic either. Some people fail the Hemoglobin A1C blood test (the one that estimates your blood sugar control over the last 2-3 months), yet are not considered diabetic because they pass the fasting glucose tests (which constitute the current "official" method for diagnosing diabetes).
>
> Over the last eight months, I have terrorized almost a dozen (former) friends and family members by making them take finger stick tests. These were all people whose routine fasting glucose lab tests showed no indication of diabetes. Yet many came up with fasting readings near or over 126, and some had after-meal readings of well over 200 (supposedly suggestive of diabetes). And my meter IS accurate.While you make a lot of really good points with all of this, I should mention that my 'dawn phenomenon' readings tend to be between 180 and 240, depending on a lot of factors. Then, by the time I'm out of the shower (unless I eat first), they drop through to about 60. I'm very brittle. And when I say I get some high fasting readings, I mean things like 160, 180, 200+. NOT 120...
When I said that I guess I was fully committed, I meant that I didn't realize there was ANY arbitrary cutoff. I guess I always assumed that there was a general 'if you can't control it by diet and exercise after a reasonable period of being really really good' sort of a thing. I always thought that it was a pattern of consistent poor control, rather than the spikes and crashes I tend to have when I'm under stress.
Oh, and the definition of 'under stress' for me is pretty much 'planning to be awake at some point in the next week...' That's basically the way I work, not always by choice...
Thank you again, though, for the great information you've passed on. I agree absolutely with your assessment of the absurdity of an arbitrary cutoff point, even though I didn't give you a whole lot of good information about my situation. So, same page?
Posted by PL on October 25, 1999, at 8:40:31
In reply to Crisis - but not depressed (yet), posted by Racer on October 22, 1999, at 17:01:10
I think that MOST people have a hard time with Effexor withdrawal. I had to stop it because it increased my blood pressure and TMJ. I knew of its withdrawal effects, but I wanted to save money and not get another script for the lower dosage (I had 75's). I started taking it every other day, then every third day; at the every fourth day I started to get the withdrawel, but was on a roll and WAS NOT going to give in to this. I took a left over Prozac and had no problem aftfer that (except for a rapid return of major depression.) Any hoo, if you have any left over meds, you might try that. Prozac is especially good because of its long half life.
And good luck with you diabetes. Hope you are under control by now.
And to the people out there that take everything to personally or think they know the best, give it a break. I think its OK to vent but please don't pick on people. I know what thats like. I was a black sheep of my family, my school until I became an Adult. Let people speak their minds and give the rest of us the credit to weed out the good from the bad. We are not idiots and do not need someone to monitor what is comunicated to us.
Posted by Rick on October 25, 1999, at 13:55:36
In reply to Um, Rick..., posted by Racer on October 25, 1999, at 3:02:11
> > Neither dawn phenomenon nor variable fasting readings necessarily make you diabetic at all, let alone "full blown". Dawn phenomenon (overnight rise in blood sugar) is common among many people whose glucose gets nowhere near diabetic levels. And variation alone doesn't make you diabetic either. Some people fail the Hemoglobin A1C blood test (the one that estimates your blood sugar control over the last 2-3 months), yet are not considered diabetic because they pass the fasting glucose tests (which constitute the current "official" method for diagnosing diabetes).
> >
> > Over the last eight months, I have terrorized almost a dozen (former) friends and family members by making them take finger stick tests. These were all people whose routine fasting glucose lab tests showed no indication of diabetes. Yet many came up with fasting readings near or over 126, and some had after-meal readings of well over 200 (supposedly suggestive of diabetes). And my meter IS accurate.
>
> While you make a lot of really good points with all of this, I should mention that my 'dawn phenomenon' readings tend to be between 180 and 240, depending on a lot of factors. Then, by the time I'm out of the shower (unless I eat first), they drop through to about 60. I'm very brittle. And when I say I get some high fasting readings, I mean things like 160, 180, 200+. NOT 120...
>
> When I said that I guess I was fully committed, I meant that I didn't realize there was ANY arbitrary cutoff. I guess I always assumed that there was a general 'if you can't control it by diet and exercise after a reasonable period of being really really good' sort of a thing. I always thought that it was a pattern of consistent poor control, rather than the spikes and crashes I tend to have when I'm under stress.
>
> Oh, and the definition of 'under stress' for me is pretty much 'planning to be awake at some point in the next week...' That's basically the way I work, not always by choice...
>
> Thank you again, though, for the great information you've passed on. I agree absolutely with your assessment of the absurdity of an arbitrary cutoff point, even though I didn't give you a whole lot of good information about my situation. So, same page?Definitely same page now. I was doing a little reading between the lines regarding your blood sugar situation, and apparently mis-read the invisible ink in some spots (although my Effexor-related and "don't panic" reccomendations weren't affected by this).
Sounds like you prefer to control your without (diabetes) meds, but if the variations you described continue, you may want to consider them. Like I said, some of the newer ones I've read about (Actos, Avandia) can do a lot of good with minimal side effects, no liver danger, and once-a-day dosing. The drawback is $$$$. I'm considering taking them based simply on a *possible risk* of developing diabetes.
BTW, I assume you aware that -- while somehat uncommon -- there ARE secondary, and frequently fully curable physical causes of diabetes (usually something that causes a hormonal imbalance). If not, you should look into this. If I recall correctly, some of these same problems can cause simultaneous depression and other mental disorders, and occur most often in women.
Rick
Posted by Racer on October 25, 1999, at 19:51:19
In reply to Re: Um, Rick..., posted by Rick on October 25, 1999, at 13:55:36
Hey, it's OK, now that we're on the same page, right?
Thanks for all your input. I will be asking my doctor about these drugs, because today was another bad day. I was actually too far gone to write out my readings, because I couldn't remember how. Breakfast was a total no-no, a huge chunk of cheddar cheese in hopes of raising myself. An hour and a half later I was below 60 again. I cancelled my afternoon clients, and came home, where I lay down and woke up again an hour later at about 205... (So, about six hours after that cheese.) This is so counter-intuitive for me!
I'll be picking up my Effexor on my way back to work, though, so I'll see if that gets me back on track...
>
> BTW, I assume you aware that -- while somehat uncommon -- there ARE secondary, and frequently fully curable physical causes of diabetes (usually something that causes a hormonal imbalance). If not, you should look into this. If I recall correctly, some of these same problems can cause simultaneous depression and other mental disorders, and occur most often in women.No, actually I don't know about these, except for the gestational diabetes. I know that I suffer from what's called Luteal Phase Defect, so maybe they're related? (LPD is basically just really rapid cycling. I'm on a perfect set-your-calendar-by-it 22 day cycle, so eggs can't implant in my uterus - no time to do so.) Can you recommend anywhere I can go to read up on this?
Thanks again for all your information!
Posted by Re: Reading Over My Shoulder?? on October 26, 1999, at 14:37:29
In reply to Reading over Rick's shoulder..., posted by Racer on October 25, 1999, at 19:51:19
Glad that you're getting your Effxor back. I'll bet that helps stabilize you a lot. I don't know where, but I HAVE read that people who have large unpredictable swings in blood sugar are usually undergoing significant mental difficulties (of course severe depression would qualify).
Regardless, the actual glucose levels you gave don't sound all that alarming, although there WAS quite a bit if swing, and they were DEFINITELY high enough to require medical advice FAIRLY SOON if they continue. But PLEASE, I want to make it extremely clear that I am NOT an expert on this subject -- I've just been reading things on the net and having a few discussions with docs. Keep in touch with your doctor, and if you don't think you've made sufficient progress (even with meds, should you begin taking them), see a speciallist (endocrinologist).
Well, it's off on (internet-less) vacation for me, so while I wish I had time to dig up a few documents on secondary causes for you, I unfortunately don't. But I do recall that secondary diabetes (i.e., caused by drugs, chemicals, or other endocrine or metabolic diseases) account for 2-3% of all cases.
Good luck, and glad to hear you're getting the Effexor back!
Rick
> Hey, it's OK, now that we're on the same page, right?
>
> Thanks for all your input. I will be asking my doctor about these drugs, because today was another bad day. I was actually too far gone to write out my readings, because I couldn't remember how. Breakfast was a total no-no, a huge chunk of cheddar cheese in hopes of raising myself. An hour and a half later I was below 60 again. I cancelled my afternoon clients, and came home, where I lay down and woke up again an hour later at about 205... (So, about six hours after that cheese.) This is so counter-intuitive for me!
>
> I'll be picking up my Effexor on my way back to work, though, so I'll see if that gets me back on track...
> >
> > BTW, I assume you aware that -- while somehat uncommon -- there ARE secondary, and frequently fully curable physical causes of diabetes (usually something that causes a hormonal imbalance). If not, you should look into this. If I recall correctly, some of these same problems can cause simultaneous depression and other mental disorders, and occur most often in women.
>
> No, actually I don't know about these, except for the gestational diabetes. I know that I suffer from what's called Luteal Phase Defect, so maybe they're related? (LPD is basically just really rapid cycling. I'm on a perfect set-your-calendar-by-it 22 day cycle, so eggs can't implant in my uterus - no time to do so.) Can you recommend anywhere I can go to read up on this?
>
> Thanks again for all your information!
This is the end of the thread.
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