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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on March 8, 1999, at 12:21:25
Hi, All.
I am sort-of responding to David's thread above, and to all of you who shared your experiences.
Some of you may have noted my last few posts re: my great response to Celexa. I was messing with the dose, and I think this was NOT a good thing to do. But I have gone back up to 60mg and I'm just hoping it works again soon. I am amazed at how quickly the black mood springs forth, how little time it takes to go from feeling 'normal' to being withdrawn and hopeless… It happened in less than one whole day. I spent the weekend in bed hating everything, and hating that I did THAT.Anyway, I share the opinions of most of you re: therapy. I was in therapy 3X week for many months (nearly a year), and nothing seemed to help. I switched therapists, tried different modalities… but nothing helped until my meds kicked in. I used to believe I could and SHOULD 'get better' all on my own … After all, I have probably read as much about psychology as many therapists (and then some), and I like to solve things and figure things out. The problem, for me, was when I could see the damned answers staring me in the face and not being able to reach for them. How utterly frustrating! Also, being misanthropic and such is not really how I like to live, and yet this kind of beh'r happens when I am overwhelmed and depressed. This further frustrates me.
My therapist tried to tell me that my depression was purely 'psychological', part of my brain's makeup. She initially thought meds might work, then tried to discourage me from taking them when I finally got an RX. I took them anyway, and discovered for the first time in my life that it wasn't "just me", I had a chemical imbalance! It was so liberating not to have to shoulder the whole responsibility for my moods, and not to have my therapist try to bring up my horrible childhood (and horrible mother) every time something went wrong. I am still 'on break' from therapy, though I need to find a therapist I can trust because I have some major stuff happening in my life right now and I'm getting that "I can't handle this!!!!" feeling deep in the pit of my stomach again. (In a nutshell, my apartment is still a huge mess, my landlord has informed me he is selling the place where I live and is putting it on the market tomorrow, I have no $$ saved up to move, and I am in a 7-year relationship that is falling
apart at the seams & now we are being forced to make that final decision RIGHT NOW as to whether to try one more time, or just throw in the towel and get separate places, which will kill me financially [I haven't been able to work more than 20-30 hrs a week for the past 5 years because of depression]. Dammit, Celexa - where are you when I need you!?)And I am sitting here at work, thankful my boss is not here today because I can barely do any work at all … I am desperately trying to keep myself together but I can't get rid of that jagged-but-hollow feeling that is echoing from my guts to my bones and getting lodged in my heart.
Say a prayer to St. Celexa for me :-)
I am sorry if this turned into a rant; I really want to thank you all for posting stuff here (and for suffering through reading this!) Even though I feel utterly alone and very low today, when I read the board here and see how many of you are going through the same sorts of things, it really helps to see how you are handling things and to get your different opinions and points of view. I appreciate you all.
--Shelley
Posted by Pat on March 8, 1999, at 12:54:41
In reply to Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Shelley in Seattle on March 8, 1999, at 12:21:25
Shelley- I identify so much with what you've written. I'm new to this website - I 've only been coming here about two weeks, I think. I just feel like I have no one to talk to that understands what I'm going through. Finding this website by accident was a godsend. Everyone here seems to know so much about depression and all the meds and terms, and I feel kind of stupid cause I don't know all this stuff, but I'm learning.
I feel embarrassed that I'm seeing a psychiatrist. I feel like I should be able to get off all the drugs and just handle my life like everyone else. There really isn't even anything wrong with my life - a lot of it is just the way I respond to stress. I've got a lifelong problem with overreacting to everything. Now I'm trying celexa too. I start on 20 mg tomorrow. I'm praying that it won't have awful side effects like all the other ad's I've been on. I feel like there's something wrong with ME because I have weird strong reactions to every drug the dr tries me on. When I even make an attempt to go off the drugs, I just cannot sleep. Forget the depression and anxiety, which are bad enough, but the insomnia is enough to drive me out of my mind. I can't take another six or seven hour stretch in bed trying to sleep. I just can't take it.
Anyway, I don't mean to keep going on about this, but thanks for writing. Good luck with the celexa.
Posted by Wayne R. on March 8, 1999, at 13:06:10
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Pat on March 8, 1999, at 12:54:41
My experience with meds working and then not working was often like a light switch. My experience with Celexa was very much like Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, etc. It would kick in after a week or so and then last a week to a month. Then I would wake up one morning and know the bottom had dropped out. We would increase the dosage and one morning I would get up and the world was bright again. But now it would only last half as long until the bottom fell out. And on and on for years... For some there is a magic bullet and for others nothing seems to stick. See my postings about Naltrexone to see what finally changed my life. Hang in there... Wayne
Posted by Shelley in Seattle on March 8, 1999, at 13:17:30
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Pat on March 8, 1999, at 12:54:41
>>Shelley- I identify so much with what you've written. I'm new to this website - I 've only been coming here about two weeks, I think. I just feel like I have no one to talk to that understands what I'm going through. Finding this website by accident was a godsend. Everyone here seems to know so much about depression and all the meds and terms, and I feel kind of stupid cause I don't know all this stuff, but I'm learning.
Well, Pat - don't feel bad! We are all learning as we go along :-)
>>I feel embarrassed that I'm seeing a psychiatrist. I feel like I should be able to get off all the drugs and just handle my life like everyone else.
I don't think there is anything to be embarrassed about re: seeing a psychiatrist. I view it as going to a doctor and trying to get well, which we do for every other kind of thing that is bothering us. And by going, you are trying to help yourself to figure it out instead of just wallowing in it - that can be seen only as positive! And what about people who take heart medicine everyday, or insulin for diabetes? Depression (et al) is just as serious and life-threatening. So please don't sell short your efforts J
As for Celexa, I would recommend starting VERY slowly if you have had strong reactions to other SSRIs. I had a very strong reaction to Zoloft, but when I tried Celexa I started at 5 mg/day (that's one quarter of the pink pill! If you get a pill-cutter from the drug store, it is not hard to come up with four reasonably even pieces), I had almost no side effects. I slowly worked my way up to 20mg over about 2 weeks, and then worked up to 60mg (though you may not need to go that high!). It took a bit longer to get a full response that way, but for me it was worth it - I am a life-long insomniac and I had no sleep disturbance with Celexa (still don't even at 60mg, whereas Zoloft kept me up half the night), and any other side effects (like dry mouth) were mild enough to deal with. The sexual dysfunction-thing went away after nearly 2 months (totally went away!). So if you get Celexa tomorrow, my opinion is to start slow and hang in there with it if you can. Good luck, Pat - and let me know what happens!
Posted by Peter on March 9, 1999, at 20:39:34
In reply to Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Shelley in Seattle on March 8, 1999, at 12:21:25
Hey Shelley,
I totally understand where you are coming from. I endured 10+ years of therapy and got many insights but I was still depressed. My first experience of normaility (probably since age 3) was when I took Prozac. I found Prozac began to wear off after 2 years. For the last 3 years I have tried every medication under the sun and have had only some success. Currently on Zyprexa, Lithium and Celexa. I plan on upping dose of Celexa to 40 mg soon.
Anyway I know what it's like to have this feeling and then to watch it slip through my fingers like so much sand. I wish you the best of luck!
Peter
Posted by Pat on March 11, 1999, at 16:25:23
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression -- Pat, posted by Shelley in Seattle on March 8, 1999, at 13:17:30
> >>Shelley - thanks so much for your kind words. I am learning so much from this website! I couldn't tolerate the celexa either. I only took 10mg and the nausea was awful. I just can't take SSRI's, I don't think. Maybe they are more than I need. The doctor put me on elavil today, 50mg. I've been on elavil before in the triavil combination and that med worked well for me with no side effects. It was the family doctor who made me stop taking it, and now the psychiatrist is saying the elavil alone would be good, plus we know I can tolerate it. So off to another try. Anyway, between the elavil and the ativan (if needed), I know I'll be getting some sleep (at last).
Posted by Torrey on March 15, 1999, at 18:36:08
In reply to Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Shelley in Seattle on March 8, 1999, at 12:21:25
I'm glad to have a forum like this, where our frustrations with current treatment options (medication and/or therapy) can be discussed. The previous thread about psychedelics mentioned Stan Grof's books, and apart from the question of LSD, I think Dr. Grof has made some very good points about the limitations of conventional therapy. I studied psychology in college and grad school for seven years, Shelley, and have also tried very hard to "figure things out." It just doesn't help much. Nor did all the "insight" into my dysfunctional childhood.
At the same time, I'm increasingly skeptical of the "bio-psychiatry" view that these disorders are "chemical imbalances" that need to be "corrected" with medication. Its somewhat disturbing to read the lengthy threads of patients trying out one med after another, and all kinds of "heroic" combinations, searching for the right one to "correct the imbalance." The evidence to support this "chemical imbalance" theory is no better than that for insight oriented therapy. And yet there are millions of us who are basically being told that we need to take these drugs for the rest of our lives.
I'm grateful for the newer meds. Its fair to say that they've saved my life, more than once. But I still think we need to Question Authority, and keep searching for better answers.
Torrey
> I am sort-of responding to David's thread above, and to all of you who shared your experiences.
> Anyway, I share the opinions of most of you re: therapy....
Posted by Elizabeth on March 17, 1999, at 18:29:30
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Torrey on March 15, 1999, at 18:36:08
Torrey,
The "medical model" that you describe is not what biological psychiatry is about at all! Biological psychiatrists understand that the "mind" and the "brain" are really one entity, that experience affects biology which then affects behavior and emotion which affect experience. We are all working on the same problem; the biological psychiatrists focus on understanding it at the level of the neuron, while various schools of psychology try to explain it in terms of the whole organism. (My professor in my sleep class feels our goal should be eventually to understand enough of the isomorphism between our internal experiences and the accompanying neurological processes that we can construct a truly scientific psychodynamic psychology.)
I think that a lot of *patients* like to ascribe to the medical model. (You've heard of pop psychology, right? Now there's "pop psychopharmacology.") I know that I have often had the experience of feeling "blamed" for my illness, like being depressed, say, isn't a good enough reason for my level of impairment (and I should just "snap out of it"). If psych patients can convince the rest of the world that they have an incurable disease that they have absolutely no control over, then they feel they might be exempt from such blame. They even take positions that some psychiatric disorders are "organic" or "endogenous" while some are "psychological" or "neurotic" - so for example, bipolar disorder or schizophrenia is a "disease" to them, but alcoholism or borderline personality is a character flaw.
I don't think any of this - the cheap and simplistic medical model, blaming us for our conditions, blaming some of us but not others - is helpful to what ought to be our cause, namely, contributing to a better understanding of what *really* causes our problems (and how they can be fixed) - not what we would *like* the causes to be based on our social or political interests. Call me old-fashioned, it just seems dishonest to convince oneself of something without understanding what it means ("chemical imbalance?" does that mean *anything*?) or having any idea why it should be true.
The reason I take meds is because they work. Therapies have only been shown to work to a limited sense - mainly CBT, which I've tried and which wasn't effective. Sure, I'm in therapy (psychodynamic), but I don't rely on it alone because I don't really know whether it ought to work.
Oh well, this should spark some flames. :-) I'm not talking about any particular individual (well, not one on this forum, anyway!) so nobody take this too personally, please.
-elizabeth
Posted by Torrey on March 19, 1999, at 0:57:28
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Elizabeth on March 17, 1999, at 18:29:30
Elizabeth, I appreciated your thougtful comments. I'm sure that many psychiatrists would understand the distinctions you are making, but I was referring more to life on the "front lines" - how psychiatry is being *practiced* in general these days. Which is to say, making a quick Dx, and pulling out the prescription pad. I'm sure "managed care" is partly the culprit here, but the practice is justified by appeal to what you call the "medical model." The bottom line, from the patient's point of view, is "These problems are a physical (brain) illness, and these pills are the treatment."
You ask -
>"chemical imbalance?" does that mean *anything*?
and that's kind of what I was getting at. It does take the "blame" off, as you say, but it also substitutes, all too often, for thinking more critically about what is really going on. We need to be aware that there are *enormous* vested interests dedicated to the "medical model" of these conditions, including your friendly neighbourhood psychiatrist's livelihood, and hundreds of millions of dollars a year in drug sales.
Yes, the drugs have a more tangible effect than psychotherapy. As to whether that proves anything about "chemical imbalances"... "it ain't necessarily so." :)
Torrey
Posted by Gringo on March 29, 1999, at 7:39:10
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Torrey on March 15, 1999, at 18:36:08
> I'm glad to have a forum like this, where our frustrations with current treatment options (medication and/or therapy) can be discussed. The previous thread about psychedelics mentioned Stan Grof's books, and apart from the question of LSD, I think Dr. Grof has made some very good points about the limitations of conventional therapy. I studied psychology in college and grad school for seven years, Shelley, and have also tried very hard to "figure things out." It just doesn't help much. Nor did all the "insight" into my dysfunctional childhood.
>
> At the same time, I'm increasingly skeptical of the "bio-psychiatry" view that these disorders are "chemical imbalances" that need to be "corrected" with medication. Its somewhat disturbing to read the lengthy threads of patients trying out one med after another, and all kinds of "heroic" combinations, searching for the right one to "correct the imbalance." The evidence to support this "chemical imbalance" theory is no better than that for insight oriented therapy. And yet there are millions of us who are basically being told that we need to take these drugs for the rest of our lives.
>
> I'm grateful for the newer meds. Its fair to say that they've saved my life, more than once. But I still think we need to Question Authority, and keep searching for better answers.
>
> Torrey
>
> > I am sort-of responding to David's thread above, and to all of you who shared your experiences.
> > Anyway, I share the opinions of most of you re: therapy....Hey there,
this is a brilliant post, that's exactly what I wanted to say here before, but language limitation (do I hear some laugh back there...?) and lower 'acceptance' of non-english speaking people which I have experienced before also in other newsgroups did not allow me to write it right. Thank you, Torrey, for pointing out these problems instead of me. The conclusion is clear - Question your Authorities and I say - do not put your trust in someone who's got dollar signs deep in their eyes. What you only fear that *might* be potentially possible in the financial background of this whole industry is for sure happening and is only the top of an iceberg... I'd like to say just a few more things - the problem sometimes is that opinions which are a bit radical or out of the frame of 'what majority considers right' are not considered as potentially right/potentially wrong but instead they are rejected as 'totally mad'. But, and I am not the first one to say that, the role of the science is to consider new ideas as potentially right and to do research on them, not to reject them in advance as 'scientifically unproved' only because today's science cannot prove them or because there's too much bias about them (political interests) or there's too much lobbistic interests and dollars flying in the air.. It's only about opening the door. It's about perceiving new facts without strong emotions, mostly negative ones. Every time there was a change, there were problems, is it same again? I KNOW, as someone said here, that depression is one of the worst things to happen to a human being, but today's mainstream psychology hasn't got a frame to treat it right. To some extent, it has but after that it's very limited. Another problem - most of you think that there's only one physical world that you live in and that the consciousness is just a side effect of the brain functioning. Then there's theory of chemical unbalance and then there are chemicals to 'balance' it back again which nobody really knows why they do work on someone and why they do not work on someone else. Today's science could never step out of its shadow and try to look somewhere else than ONLY inside the skull. But people having certain experiences can only laugh at this 'narrowmindness' and shallow approach. But remember, it's just a matter of accepting new opinions. There's a very nice example in one of the Grof's book - when a TV set breaks, a repairman comes to fix it. He rumbles inside the TV and finally fixes it, it was a matter of mechanical part of TV. It is functional again. But if owner of that TV complained about the quality of TV broadcast, he calls the reapirman again. Then this repairman rumbles inside the TV trying to find out why this programme is so bad... Sounds weird? That's exactly what is being done today. Bio-oriented psychology looks for the reason in the brain, where it's not, if you like it or not. I dare to say that most of the psychotherapist practise today is Freudian based. But, as someone else here menitoned, Freudian theory knows why there's a trouble but somehow, after conducting its approaches, when the trouble should be over, it is still there, though maybe in a weaker form. This kind of therpay is ineffective on you, therefore there is the only possibility - medications. And that is still shocking for me to see how you encourage each other to try this and that and to combine it then with a third one and if it still doesn't work then you maybe will need to remain on them until the end of your life. There are new approaches but due to too many interests and thanks to too much misunderstanding you'll have to keep hoping with a pill on your lips until there's not an atmosphere of true scientifical research and acceptance of new ideas. There are new ideas and approaches but as there are billions of dollars 'in the air' and you don't ask for more, status quo seems the only way. Open your mind and listen, get the information and ask for more, otherwise you'll end up like 'pigs in a cage on antibiotics' only being required to consume more and more and more. Is there something that's pulling the strings? You can mention lsd here and most of the responses will be, with all the respect, dumb reactions of people who 'heard something' or even 'experienced it' but are under strrong influence of, and that's necessary to say, misuse and abuse of such substances in sixties. But the image that these substances have now because of what happened 30 years ago doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a serious psychiatric use for them. Say 'drugs' here and people will start shaking and calling God to help, say 'Prozac' here and people will start calling with desire 'YES! YES! YES!' Are they paid by pharmaceuticalls?. And how many of those have really read about this issue, how many here have read 'LSD Psychotherpay' 'LSD - the problem solving substance' 'Psilocybin solution' or 'Using LSD on terminally ill patients'? There are studies, articles available, but only few will react openly. This is not to promote lsd or any other drug, it's about an example of the reaction which lacks openness and wisdom. Even psychology evolves and there are new approaches, try to inform yourselves about transpersonal psychology, or better try to pay a visit to transpersonal psychologist, he might be having legal means to let you fully experience the deep reasons of depression. This is again not to promote transpersonal psychology as the only right cure for everything.
Something to think about:
By Ronald F. Borne, Ph.D., Department of Medicinal Chemistry, School of Pharmacy,
University of Mississippi. In his article called 'Serotonin: The Neurotransmitter for the '90s' you could read this:
....Analyst project a greater than $10 billion market for serotonin-related drugs in the 1990s...Regards,
Gringo
Posted by cait on March 29, 1999, at 21:04:38
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Gringo on March 29, 1999, at 7:39:10
Great Post! And I even worked (almost 20 years ago) in the School of Pharmacy at the Univ. of Mississippi!
I finally told my father's primary care physician, "No more drugs." His brain is damaged, and these very expensive drugs are useless. Fortunately, this astute individual thought the same thing and admitted that the trials were more for the family than for the patient! And NOW, he even helps with pharmaceutical samples on the two necessary medications!
There IS hope out there. I don't believe that I will ever be "cured" by taking Prozac, Zoloft, etc. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :-)
cait
Posted by Pat on March 30, 1999, at 18:40:56
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by cait on March 29, 1999, at 21:04:38
I decided today to get off the medication merry-go-round. I still have to take ativan to sleep, now that they got me addicted to it, but I'm so sick of putting up with side effects and being afraid of what those drugs are doing to my brain/body. What might be the long term effects? Who knows? I'm going to explore alternative remedies.
Posted by David on March 31, 1999, at 4:50:12
In reply to Re: Meds, therapy & ever-present depression , posted by Torrey on March 15, 1999, at 18:36:08
Hello everybody,
I am kind of "back," I feel I just need to talk a little and I hope you can stand reading it...
I am going to copy a part of my previous post here:
>> The psychiatrist gave me Zoloft 50mg, twice a day and
>> Lexaurin 1.5mg (Bromazepamum), a total dose of 3mg a
>> day. At the same time he said that my depression
>> has its roots in the structure of my personality, my
>> character. And he added that a psychotherapy for me
>> would be difficult and complicated.I thought: I don't see the point: it would be difficult and complicated, but so what?!!! I am well aware that it won't be a walk in a spring garden full of trees in blossom, I know that it's going to be a hard work for me, but my point is I want to improve! So isn't it worth to give it a try at least...?
But I didn't say anything... I kept it for myself deciding that maybe later during some of the next visits I will come up with just a small remark about it...What I want to stress is this: I got the general impression from his acting - here you've got the meds, take them, and that's it! There's nothing else that can be done for you, boy! I just felt extremely desperate to realize, that he left me to cope with this misery all on my own! As if he resigned beforehand: it's your fate and that's all.
(OK, forget now for a while that he is probably NOT the right therapist for me, and that I was to leave my home country to study temporarily in the Netherlands.)
I was extremely disappointed: having suffered from severe depression for 2 months - and he knew about it very well - was that all the support and comfort he had to offer? Aren't all these people out there to help us, desperate folks? I believe that his approach has something to do with biological psychiatry - paying too much emphasis on chemical imbalances in the human brain.
Please, I don't want to put any blame on anybody here, nor on him, I just need to talk a little bit (maybe vent my anger...?), so please don't take it personally.>>I had been skeptical about medicines for depression as
>>well as any kind of conventional psychotherapy before,
>>although never actually tried them (I had always
>>really doubted that they could be of any help to me...
>>maybe I had some kind of prejudice...? I don't know.)
>>and now the psychiatrist, although being honest,
>>even enhanced these worries in me!>>I have been on Zoloft and Lexaurin for 2 months now,
>>I can see a slight improvement (I have enough energy
>>to pretend again that everything's all right...)That's exactly how I'm feeling right now.
>>but
>>very often I slip into despair as to whether there
>>really is any kind of help for me? Any positive vision
>>of the future, I mean bright future? I don't know...>>I have a very intense feeling that these antidepressant
>>drugs just suppress the underlying causes of the
>>state of my mental health without really "removing"
>>them. Maybe the most severe symptoms disappear so I
>>can get through a day somehow...Read anything on transpersonal psychology and you'll understand what I mean...
Thank you for reading, and thank you Torrey.
David
> I'm glad to have a forum like this, where our frustrations with current treatment options (medication and/or therapy) can be discussed. The previous thread about psychedelics mentioned Stan Grof's books, and apart from the question of LSD, I think Dr. Grof has made some very good points about the limitations of conventional therapy. I studied psychology in college and grad school for seven years, Shelley, and have also tried very hard to "figure things out." It just doesn't help much. Nor did all the "insight" into my dysfunctional childhood.
>
> At the same time, I'm increasingly skeptical of the "bio-psychiatry" view that these disorders are "chemical imbalances" that need to be "corrected" with medication. Its somewhat disturbing to read the lengthy threads of patients trying out one med after another, and all kinds of "heroic" combinations, searching for the right one to "correct the imbalance." The evidence to support this "chemical imbalance" theory is no better than that for insight oriented therapy. And yet there are millions of us who are basically being told that we need to take these drugs for the rest of our lives.
>
> I'm grateful for the newer meds. Its fair to say that they've saved my life, more than once. But I still think we need to Question Authority, and keep searching for better answers.
>
> Torrey
>
> > I am sort-of responding to David's thread above, and to all of you who shared your experiences.
> > Anyway, I share the opinions of most of you re: therapy....
This is the end of the thread.
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