![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 64. Go back in thread:
Posted by rayww on March 13, 2008, at 23:03:18
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw » rayww, posted by Dena on March 10, 2008, at 22:01:28
Occasionally I come across a blog that I really like. I'm not sure you will make the connection with this quote and your last response, but let me preceed it with one comment - Sometimes as Christians we think because Christ works through us we are always happy doing it, but doing Christ's work sometimes really sucks.
"Its the assumption that feeling bad or sad or anxious or depressed is categorically the wrong way to feel. There are some things that happen to people that they should be anxious, sad, or depressed about. There are some things where this is the right response. We acknowledge this with what we call grief. We recognize that grieving is proper and healthy under certain circumstances. It seems to me that this model might call for application with regard to quite a few other negative (for lack of a better word) emotional states. There are cases where people feel bad for merely physiological reasons, and those need to be addressed physiologically, often including medication. if someone experiences a traumatic event or situation to which the right, proper emotional response is to be depressed for weeks or months or whatever, she or he will need to cope in various ways to continue with the business of living. This sensible coping may include medication. But I dont think that means those are the wrong emotions to have. We read that Christ experienced emotions that a mortal person cannot feel and remain alive. Were those the wrong emotions? Elijah wanted to die. It wasnt because of something wrong with him. It was because of something wrong with the world he was living in. We need to retain the ability to locate the causes where they are."
"What are the benefits of service? (As opposed to it making me happy) The most important benefit comes to the person who is served.
Why do we have trials and sorrows? (As opposed to it making me happier in the end) Its the type of life that God lives""I dont think as members of the church we should be happier than anyone else or cheerful 24/7. We are all going to have our ups and downs and it gives me comfort when I read the scriptures and realize that many of the great prophets also experienced discouragement and inadequacies. I think we do a disservice in the church culture at times by acting like if you are righteous and doing the right things, you will be happy so if you are not happy, you must be doing something wrong. Life is tough.it is a testand I havent met many people who dont have a large burden to bear in some fashion. I think the gospel of Jesus Christ can give us hope and perspective.and the Spirit can bring us peace.but it doesnt always take away the pain and difficulty of facing the trials of life. "
And...I would add keeping the commandments isn't always easy, and the life it produces isn't always fun. We accept that, and the tough get stronger as they walk and struggle through life.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 15, 2008, at 15:02:40
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-revlaw » Dena, posted by rayww on March 13, 2008, at 23:03:18
> Occasionally I come across a blog that I really like. I'm not sure you will make the connection with this quote and your last response, but let me preceed it with one comment - Sometimes as Christians we think because Christ works through us we are always happy doing it, but doing Christ's work sometimes really sucks.
>
> "Its the assumption that feeling bad or sad or anxious or depressed is categorically the wrong way to feel. There are some things that happen to people that they should be anxious, sad, or depressed about. There are some things where this is the right response. We acknowledge this with what we call grief. We recognize that grieving is proper and healthy under certain circumstances. It seems to me that this model might call for application with regard to quite a few other negative (for lack of a better word) emotional states. There are cases where people feel bad for merely physiological reasons, and those need to be addressed physiologically, often including medication. if someone experiences a traumatic event or situation to which the right, proper emotional response is to be depressed for weeks or months or whatever, she or he will need to cope in various ways to continue with the business of living. This sensible coping may include medication. But I dont think that means those are the wrong emotions to have. We read that Christ experienced emotions that a mortal person cannot feel and remain alive. Were those the wrong emotions? Elijah wanted to die. It wasnt because of something wrong with him. It was because of something wrong with the world he was living in. We need to retain the ability to locate the causes where they are."
>
> "What are the benefits of service? (As opposed to it making me happy) The most important benefit comes to the person who is served.
> Why do we have trials and sorrows? (As opposed to it making me happier in the end) Its the type of life that God lives"
>
> "I dont think as members of the church we should be happier than anyone else or cheerful 24/7. We are all going to have our ups and downs and it gives me comfort when I read the scriptures and realize that many of the great prophets also experienced discouragement and inadequacies. I think we do a disservice in the church culture at times by acting like if you are righteous and doing the right things, you will be happy so if you are not happy, you must be doing something wrong. Life is tough.it is a testand I havent met many people who dont have a large burden to bear in some fashion. I think the gospel of Jesus Christ can give us hope and perspective.and the Spirit can bring us peace.but it doesnt always take away the pain and difficulty of facing the trials of life. "
>
> And...I would add keeping the commandments isn't always easy, and the life it produces isn't always fun. We accept that, and the tough get stronger as they walk and struggle through life.
>rayww,
You wrote,[...keeping...not always easy...not always fun...{get stronger} as they walk and struggle through life...].
This is a parallel to what I have been writing about here as to {overcomming}. It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages of overcomming that it has been revealed to me as to why we were born on the earth. There has also been revealed to me that there are 3 minds that we could have while we are sojourning here. All of this can cause to be in a continuim from being a a state of death to being in the state of The Life.
It has been revealed to me that The Walk while I am on this earth is one of a trial and a test from my God to be like a training for a higher commision later, even after death. It has been revealed to me that keeping the commandments are a guide to what is to be overcome, for they are of the nature as to directions concerning the carnal mind, the spiritual mind and the anointed mind, which has been revealed to me to be the 3 minds that we can have by overcomming the flesh, the world and the devil. It has been revealed to me that overcomming and keeping the commandment s are interelated and that the 7 stages of overcomming can lead to The Paradise of God and beyond.But like you say, and I agree,[...not always easy ...or fun...]
Lou
Posted by rayww on March 18, 2008, at 12:09:50
In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcmncoman, posted by Lou Pilder on March 15, 2008, at 15:02:40
Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htmWhat are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 14:42:31
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcmncoman » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on March 18, 2008, at 12:09:50
> Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
> http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
> They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
> http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htm
>
> What are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.rayww,
You wrote,[...what are the 7 {steps}?...]
I believe that that is your question to me in regards to that I wrote that there are 7 {stages}.
These stages are different from {steps} but I think that we could use both to have an understanding of ewhat I mean by 7 stages.
It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages involved in overcomming. In your links you write about repentance and such and I think that I can tie that into the discussion someplace, for it does belong in the revelation that has been given to me.
The 7 stages involved with overcomming have been revealed to me in the book called The Revelation. In chapter 2 we have them and let us look at these.
In verse 5, it reads,[...Remember thearfore from which you have fallen;repent and do the first works...], so to repent is involved here. Going to verse 7, it reads;
[...To him that overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God...
That is the first {stage}, and it does involve to repent.
Now let's look at verse 10;
[...Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life...He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death...].
Here we have the second stage in overcomming which involves faithfulnes until death after one first partakes of the tree of life.
It has been revealed to me that we have a promise that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death which is death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire. If one is not hurt by the second death that are those that overcome, then could those that do not overcome be hurt by the second death? (I will answer that question from my perspective soon).
stages 3-7 comming...
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:03:37
In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-7stges-1n2 » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 14:42:31
> > Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
> > http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
> > They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
> > http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htm
> >
> > What are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.
>
> rayww,
> You wrote,[...what are the 7 {steps}?...]
> I believe that that is your question to me in regards to that I wrote that there are 7 {stages}.
> These stages are different from {steps} but I think that we could use both to have an understanding of ewhat I mean by 7 stages.
> It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages involved in overcomming. In your links you write about repentance and such and I think that I can tie that into the discussion someplace, for it does belong in the revelation that has been given to me.
> The 7 stages involved with overcomming have been revealed to me in the book called The Revelation. In chapter 2 we have them and let us look at these.
> In verse 5, it reads,[...Remember thearfore from which you have fallen;repent and do the first works...], so to repent is involved here. Going to verse 7, it reads;
> [...To him that overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God...
> That is the first {stage}, and it does involve to repent.
> Now let's look at verse 10;
> [...Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life...He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death...].
> Here we have the second stage in overcomming which involves faithfulnes until death after one first partakes of the tree of life.
> It has been revealed to me that we have a promise that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death which is death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire. If one is not hurt by the second death that are those that overcome, then could those that do not overcome be hurt by the second death? (I will answer that question from my perspective soon).
> stages 3-7 comming...
> Lourayww,
Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:22:56
In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:03:37
> > > Would your seven steps parallell the steps in AA? http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/12steps.html Or how about one of these?
> > > http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-27,00.html
> > > They are all similar, and taught by many religions, only with a bit of difference. http://www.ou.org/chagim/elul/foursteps.html
> > > http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/a/bb_repentance2.htm
> > >
> > > What are your seven steps? If you have outlined them already and I have missed it, I apologize.
> >
> > rayww,
> > You wrote,[...what are the 7 {steps}?...]
> > I believe that that is your question to me in regards to that I wrote that there are 7 {stages}.
> > These stages are different from {steps} but I think that we could use both to have an understanding of ewhat I mean by 7 stages.
> > It has been revealed to me that there are 7 stages involved in overcomming. In your links you write about repentance and such and I think that I can tie that into the discussion someplace, for it does belong in the revelation that has been given to me.
> > The 7 stages involved with overcomming have been revealed to me in the book called The Revelation. In chapter 2 we have them and let us look at these.
> > In verse 5, it reads,[...Remember thearfore from which you have fallen;repent and do the first works...], so to repent is involved here. Going to verse 7, it reads;
> > [...To him that overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God...
> > That is the first {stage}, and it does involve to repent.
> > Now let's look at verse 10;
> > [...Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life...He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death...].
> > Here we have the second stage in overcomming which involves faithfulnes until death after one first partakes of the tree of life.
> > It has been revealed to me that we have a promise that those that overcome will not be hurt by the second death which is death and hell (Hades) being cast into the lake of fire. If one is not hurt by the second death that are those that overcome, then could those that do not overcome be hurt by the second death? (I will answer that question from my perspective soon).
> > stages 3-7 comming...
> > Lou
>
> rayww,
> Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
> Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
> The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
> Lourayww,
Now in verse 26 (stage 4) it reads;
[..And he that overcomes and keeps My works to the end to him I will give power over the nations...and I will give him the morning star...]
Now when one is in this stage, they receive power over the nations and in the preceeding verses we read about {Jezebel} which has been revealed to me to be a seducing spirit enticing God's children to commit spiritual offenses against their god which their god has said to them to turn away from (repent) to go into this stage. And in verse 28 it reads that these overcomming in this stage will receive the morning star. The morning star has been revealed to me to be the {anointed mind} which I will be writing about shortly in another thread here regarding what has been revealed to me as that there are 3 minds that man can have while on earth. One is the natural or carnal or flesh mind, the other is the spiritual mind and the other is the anointed mind that has been revaled to me to be given in the 4th stage of overcomming.
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 17:09:00
In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:22:56
This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.
I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 18:54:54
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4 » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 17:09:00
> This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.
>
> I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
>
> "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles WestDena,
You wrote,[...ways in which these passages have been interpreted...].
It has been revealed to me that the book called The Revelation was written by John, a Jew, and that the symbols then used were so that at least Jews could understand the message of the book. Being a Jew, what has been revealed to me is from a Jewish perspective.
In what we are discussing, when I read the second chapter concerning overcomming, I was led to the book called Jeremiah, the 31st chapter, the 33erd verse where I read that he that overcomes will eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. And it reads,
[...says the Lord, I will put my law in their minds and write it in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people...]
The tree of life was in the midst of the garden and could have given Adam and Eve the mind of God, and have had God's law written in their hearts, but they did not eat of that tree. It has been revealed to me that the tree of life is God's law put into the minds and hearts of His people by His Spirit, which means that repenting is the first stage of overcomming and one is allowed to eat of the tree of life which then imparts God's Spirit into the miinds and hearts of the overcommer. This then is a new mind, a spiritual mind, and a new heart, a spiritual heart.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 19:38:46
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-nwhrtnmnd » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 18:54:54
> > This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.
> >
> > I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
> >
> > "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
> >
> > "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...ways in which these passages have been interpreted...].
> It has been revealed to me that the book called The Revelation was written by John, a Jew, and that the symbols then used were so that at least Jews could understand the message of the book. Being a Jew, what has been revealed to me is from a Jewish perspective.
> In what we are discussing, when I read the second chapter concerning overcomming, I was led to the book called Jeremiah, the 31st chapter, the 33erd verse where I read that he that overcomes will eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God. And it reads,
> [...says the Lord, I will put my law in their minds and write it in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people...]
> The tree of life was in the midst of the garden and could have given Adam and Eve the mind of God, and have had God's law written in their hearts, but they did not eat of that tree. It has been revealed to me that the tree of life is God's law put into the minds and hearts of His people by His Spirit, which means that repenting is the first stage of overcomming and one is allowed to eat of the tree of life which then imparts God's Spirit into the miinds and hearts of the overcommer. This then is a new mind, a spiritual mind, and a new heart, a spiritual heart.
> LouDena,
Then at this stage in overcomming we are confronted with two minds, and they are opposed to one another. For it has been revealed to me that one cannot serve two masters.
It has been revealed to me that the carnal or natural or flesh mind wars with the spiritual mind and from here the overcomming gets into a different stage and that to be carnally minded is death in the fleash and that to be spiritualy minded is life and peace in the Spirit and if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh which are murders, sorcery, idolatry, and such and that the fruit of the Spirit is love, peace joy , longsuffering, gentleness and faith.
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 19:49:52
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-wlknthesprit, posted by Lou Pilder on March 19, 2008, at 19:38:46
What else was revealed to you, Lou...?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by rayww on March 20, 2008, at 12:12:56
In reply to Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl, posted by Lou Pilder on March 18, 2008, at 15:03:37
> rayww,
> Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
> Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
> The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
> Lou
>Lou, I doubt you could write anything about the foundation of Judaism, or the children of Israel (the 12 tribes) that would surprise, but go for it. I am interested (curious) in what you have had revealed about that.
Are you quoting the Book of Revelation because it happens to go along with what you have had revealed to you? I don't quite understand your Jewish connection to the NT. I admire you for it, as it shows you are a soul with an open (enlightened) mind. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/1
John sees Jesus and has revealed to him by Jesus this great vision while on the Isle of Patmos, and is commanded to record it. If I am to understand correctly (and I may be wrong) this is the same John who wrote the Gospel of St. John, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John in the NT. He is also the John who is still on the earth today, somewhere, working with the tribes that are lost. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/j/52Dummelow, page 1057 says 1st John is the last recorded scripture of the NT. In point of time the very last recorded words of scripture are: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols!" http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_jn/5
Of course, there are other opinions too. But if John can say in the first chapter of Revelation that he had this revealed to him while he was on the Isle of Patmos, then we know it happened sometime in John's past. And what he wrote in 1st, 2nd and 3rd John was kind of his last ditch effort to keep the churches out of apostasy, then his final plea to all the world before he stopped writing, "keep yourself from idols". Perhaps that would tie in with what you were wanting to say regarding other gods. I simply provide these links to enhance your study. I particularily like the "listen" feature at the top (of the scripture pages, not of the Bible Dictionary). http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/r/33
This reference states that the first three chapters of Revelation are speaking to the churches in John's day, and chapters 4-22 deals with things yet future for John, or it begins with John's time and continues to the end of the world as we know it. (the world will change, but like us, it is eternal too)You believe in that too don't you? The Messiah will come. We are all preparing for that future event, and look forward to it together, even though we understand it a little differently. Most believe it because the foundation of all faith was the same (in Adam) but there's been confusions with the message right from the beginning.
It is important to keep an enlightened mind so that understanding can filter in.
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 20, 2008, at 21:08:06
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 3-chldnvIsrl » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on March 20, 2008, at 12:12:56
> > rayww,
> > Now let us look at verse 17,[...to him that overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna and a white stone and a new name...]
> > Preceding that verse it talks about idols and other gods. I can not write what it means here concerning this stage because it involves {the children of Israel} (verse 14) and what is to be repented from. This is because Mr. Hsiung has made a rule here that I can not post here concerning the foundation of my faith in regards to that it has been revealed to me supernaturally that I XXX(the foundation of Judaism).
> > The third stage is concerning the {children of Israel}. It has been revealed to me that the {children of Israel} are those that are {children of Israel} in their hearts. One can email if they like to see the posts involved authored by Mr. Hsiung for there were new rules made about a year 1 1/2 ago that I am unsure of as to if those rules could allow me to post the links to those posts. I am sorry, I really am that I can not post any more concerning to the 3erd stage of overcomming here.
> > Lou
> >
>
> Lou, I doubt you could write anything about the foundation of Judaism, or the children of Israel (the 12 tribes) that would surprise, but go for it. I am interested (curious) in what you have had revealed about that.
>
> Are you quoting the Book of Revelation because it happens to go along with what you have had revealed to you? I don't quite understand your Jewish connection to the NT. I admire you for it, as it shows you are a soul with an open (enlightened) mind. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/1
> John sees Jesus and has revealed to him by Jesus this great vision while on the Isle of Patmos, and is commanded to record it. If I am to understand correctly (and I may be wrong) this is the same John who wrote the Gospel of St. John, and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John in the NT. He is also the John who is still on the earth today, somewhere, working with the tribes that are lost. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/j/52
>
> Dummelow, page 1057 says 1st John is the last recorded scripture of the NT. In point of time the very last recorded words of scripture are: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols!" http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_jn/5
>
> Of course, there are other opinions too. But if John can say in the first chapter of Revelation that he had this revealed to him while he was on the Isle of Patmos, then we know it happened sometime in John's past. And what he wrote in 1st, 2nd and 3rd John was kind of his last ditch effort to keep the churches out of apostasy, then his final plea to all the world before he stopped writing, "keep yourself from idols". Perhaps that would tie in with what you were wanting to say regarding other gods. I simply provide these links to enhance your study. I particularily like the "listen" feature at the top (of the scripture pages, not of the Bible Dictionary). http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/r/33
> This reference states that the first three chapters of Revelation are speaking to the churches in John's day, and chapters 4-22 deals with things yet future for John, or it begins with John's time and continues to the end of the world as we know it. (the world will change, but like us, it is eternal too)
>
> You believe in that too don't you? The Messiah will come. We are all preparing for that future event, and look forward to it together, even though we understand it a little differently. Most believe it because the foundation of all faith was the same (in Adam) but there's been confusions with the message right from the beginning.
>
> It is important to keep an enlightened mind so that understanding can filter in.rayww,
There are many questions that you have proposed here and I would like to reply to each of them.
You wrote,[...keep yourself from idols...].
This discussion had someplace where it was discussed as to the idols of the heart, which could be further discussed as to your post here.
Could you take one question from you post that you would like to discuss first here?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 22, 2008, at 12:41:32
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to rayww-ovrcom-stage 4 » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 19, 2008, at 17:09:00
> This is something we're discussing both in our home, and in our fellowship group, Lou... and I find it both fascinating and perplexing.... there are SO many ways in which these passages have been interpreted over the years, and it brings great confusion.
>
> I'd like to hear more about the 7 stages, as well as what happens to those in the lake of fire, and those who are not hurt by the lake of fire.
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
>
> "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles WestDena,
Now we go to stage 5 of overcomming. We read in the book called The Revelation in chapter 3 verse 5,[...He that overcomes shall be clothed in white garments and I will not blot out his name from the book of life...].
It has been revealed to me that in the stages of overcomming one that reaches this stage will have a different clothing. This clothing is called the clothing of white garment and the book called the Revelation is a book of symbols , the white garment being something that happens to one that has to do with their appearance to others as a light shinning in a dark place. This has been revealed to me that this appearance is given to those that as in verse 4 here in chapter 3,[...there are a few here which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy...].
It has been revealed to me that the {white garment} is the {glory of God}, that a person's perception is of that person to be a light in a dark place. One that has overcome to this degree as that they are unspotted, is as to that their carnal mind has been conquered and put to death, which is death to the carnal mind, the death of death, a second death, so that the spiritual mind is their whole {garment}.
As I read that verse I was led to the book called Isaiah, chapter 49, verse 6 which reads;[...I will also give my sevants to be a light to others, that they will receive salvation...]and I am reminded of a Psalm, 104, verses 1 and 2, which read,[...my God, You are very great: You are clothed with honor and majesty, Who cover yourself with light as with a garment, Who strtch out the heavens like a cutain...].
And then to the book called Isaiah chapter 60 verse 1 to 3 as we read;
Arise, shine;
For your light has come!
And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.
For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
And deep darkness the people;
But the Lord will arise over you.
And kings to the brightness of your rising.
It has been revealed to me that the white garment is given to those that God is now using as a servant of God, to be a light to those around them to reveal the aspects that are good concerning the Kingdom of God to them, and that the Kingdom of God is at hand, that is within them, that they can cross over the Great Gulf and eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 22, 2008, at 18:27:54
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcom-stage 5, posted by Lou Pilder on March 22, 2008, at 12:41:32
So Lou... I'm seeing that God seems to choose or "elect" some, a small group, through whom He seems to want to bless ALL... is that what you've come to believe as well...?
I see that He chose Abram to become Abraham, and told him that "through you all nations [all people] will be blessed."
I see that many are called, but few are chosen... the Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all people... and then others were grafted in, in order for the fulness of Gentiles to make the Jews jealous and bring them back to God... and then the Jews, being the overcomers (along with the grafted-in ones) will be that blessing to all nations, bringing that Light to all, who have all BEEN reconciled to God, but are still blind to that reality... and THAT is the good news, which has unfortunately been skewed by those who cannot receive a free gift, but somehow believe (or desire) that they should earn it, which they already have.
What's confusing to me is the timeline of everything... and what part of what's in the Revelation of John is for what has already passed, what part is a metaphor for what is continually going on (spiritually), and what is what is yet to happen...
Can you speak to that Lou, without getting off track in what you're sharing here -- does that tie in at all, or would you rather come back to that (my qusetions) later?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 25, 2008, at 7:53:53
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-ovrcom-stage 5 » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 22, 2008, at 17:27:54
> So Lou... I'm seeing that God seems to choose or "elect" some, a small group, through whom He seems to want to bless ALL... is that what you've come to believe as well...?
>
> I see that He chose Abram to become Abraham, and told him that "through you all nations [all people] will be blessed."
>
> I see that many are called, but few are chosen... the Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all people... and then others were grafted in, in order for the fulness of Gentiles to make the Jews jealous and bring them back to God... and then the Jews, being the overcomers (along with the grafted-in ones) will be that blessing to all nations, bringing that Light to all, who have all BEEN reconciled to God, but are still blind to that reality... and THAT is the good news, which has unfortunately been skewed by those who cannot receive a free gift, but somehow believe (or desire) that they should earn it, which they already have.
>
> What's confusing to me is the timeline of everything... and what part of what's in the Revelation of John is for what has already passed, what part is a metaphor for what is continually going on (spiritually), and what is what is yet to happen...
>
> Can you speak to that Lou, without getting off track in what you're sharing here -- does that tie in at all, or would you rather come back to that (my qusetions) later?
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[...and told him...many are called...that Light...]
It has been revealed to me that this time here is to some the darkest hour of their lives and that there is a sign here to those reading this. It has been revealed to me that when this sign can be seen, that there could be a new day with new light that could lead some to The Kingdom of God, The Paradise of God, The Promised Land.
It has been revaled to me now that The Sun of Rightiousness is arising here with healing in His wings, for the sign is here, the sign that the God that i give worship and service to has revaled to me would be That Sign that would be given to those that the dawn is here, there could be a new day and that the darkness could be dispelled.
It has been revealed to me that That Sign is the Sign of Jonah,asJonah was in the belly of the Great Fish,thatwouldbe The Sign as for as Jonah was in the Heart of the Great Fish, we would be in the Heart of the Earth. The Heart of the Earth is the heart of the carnal existance, for we are earth, formed from the dust of the ground. And as ouearthly mind is in the profound state of death, the carnal mind, then it has been revaeled to me that this is the Sign of Jonah to one that is in their darkest hour, the Heart of the Earth as being trapped like Jonah and fearing hopelesness and fear.
It has been revealed to me that if one is in this state that they are in The Heart of the Earth and could think that their God has forsaken them. it has been revaled to me that in this state one is being {called} by their God to be brought out of the darkness and into a marvelous light and as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, that is the sign to us that when we are in The Heart of the Earth for three days and three nights, the sign of Jonah, to wait on the Lord.
Lou
Posted by Dena on March 25, 2008, at 16:50:48
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-sgnvjnah » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 25, 2008, at 7:53:53
Yes, I know how it feels to be in darkness, and to believe, due to my perception, that God has forsaken me... when I choose my own independence from Him, that choice blinds me to Him, it seems...
It FEELS as though He has then forsaken me, but I've come to believe that He never leaves me, nor forsakes me, not even when I turn from Him ... it's just that I then blind myself to Him.
I see that when the Messiah was suffering, He cried out (quoting David), "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?" Some theologians have told me that this means God turned away from Him, and separated Himself from the Messiah, because at that moment, as He was being the sacrifice, He took on the sins of the world, and became sin, and God cannot abide sin, and so abandoned Him...
But, I believe that when the Messiah took on the world's sins, and became sin, God WAS STILL WITH HIM ... it's just that the Messiah, in that state, could not perceive the Father with Him. However, they are One, and cannot separate, and God does not abandon us in our sins ...
... also, I see that God was IN The Messiah, reconciling the world to Himself. At that moment, that moment of reconciliation, God was IN Him, and not separated...
It's amazing to me that my perceptions can be mistaken, and yet they are. That's when I must trust, that He is there, and is using EVEN the darkness for His purposes, and for my good.
(I hope this tied in, Lou, and didn't distract.)
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2008, at 11:24:30
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Dena-sgnvjnah » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on March 25, 2008, at 17:50:48
> Yes, I know how it feels to be in darkness, and to believe, due to my perception, that God has forsaken me... when I choose my own independence from Him, that choice blinds me to Him, it seems...
>
> It FEELS as though He has then forsaken me, but I've come to believe that He never leaves me, nor forsakes me, not even when I turn from Him ... it's just that I then blind myself to Him.
>
> I see that when the Messiah was suffering, He cried out (quoting David), "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?" Some theologians have told me that this means God turned away from Him, and separated Himself from the Messiah, because at that moment, as He was being the sacrifice, He took on the sins of the world, and became sin, and God cannot abide sin, and so abandoned Him...
>
> But, I believe that when the Messiah took on the world's sins, and became sin, God WAS STILL WITH HIM ... it's just that the Messiah, in that state, could not perceive the Father with Him. However, they are One, and cannot separate, and God does not abandon us in our sins ...
>
> ... also, I see that God was IN The Messiah, reconciling the world to Himself. At that moment, that moment of reconciliation, God was IN Him, and not separated...
>
> It's amazing to me that my perceptions can be mistaken, and yet they are. That's when I must trust, that He is there, and is using EVEN the darkness for His purposes, and for my good.
>
> (I hope this tied in, Lou, and didn't distract.)
>
> Shalom, Dena
>
> "The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
>
> "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
>Dena,
You wrote,[...to be in darkness...choose my own independence...FEELS...to believe...perceptions can be mistaken...trust...using EVEN the darkness...]
It has been revealed to me that when one experiances The Sign of Jonah, it is a calling and if one is in the darkness, feeling forsaken, that they could then know that there is hope and that the Sun of Rightiousness is arrising with healing in His wings. And it has been revealed to me that many are called,and that many in this manner, and that if one recognizes that they are in the Valley of the Shadow of Death, that they can be delivered from the darkness.
It has been revealed to me that one could spend three days and three nights in this darkness and if one knows of this that they can choose to endure like Jonah, who was called, and be chosen.
Lou
Posted by moonlightsonata2 on March 27, 2008, at 20:21:26
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-mnyrcldfwchosn » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on March 27, 2008, at 11:24:30
Dear Lou,
You always say "it has been revealed to me that...." What do you mean by this? Who has revealed it to you? How have you come to all these realizations? What should I do if I want things revealed to me, too?
Posted by Lou Pilder on March 28, 2008, at 20:45:44
In reply to Re: request for clarification from Lou, posted by moonlightsonata2 on March 27, 2008, at 20:21:26
> Dear Lou,
> You always say "it has been revealed to me that...." What do you mean by this? Who has revealed it to you? How have you come to all these realizations? What should I do if I want things revealed to me, too?moonlightsonata2,
You asked about what receiving revelation entails.
This is something that IMO could change your life today. You see, I have been writing about two minds, the mind of the flesh, or carnal mind, and the mind of the spirit.
I have also been writing about the thinking of the two minds and that there is a great gulf separating the two minds that one can cross over. This crossing over could be looked at as {comming over} to the spiritual mind and {comming over} could also be looked at as {overcomming}.
It has been revealed to me that the crossing over from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind can be done in many ways and that there are three things to overcome that could allow one to cross over from the carnal to the spiritual mind. These three things are the world, the flesh and the devil.
It has been revealed to me that to be carnally minded is death and to be spiritually minded is life and peace, for the thinking in the two minds are different.
It has been revealed to me that there is a Way that could have one be bridged to come over to the spiritual mind to Life in the spirit. It has been revealed to me that one can find the Way and the Life.
I have been writing about the beast that came out of the sea, which has been revealed to me to be the carnal mind, death. I believe that when one sees the beast come out of the sea that that is one way that could lead one to the Great Gulf and want to cross over to the spiritual mind.
It has been revealed to me that we have a seed of the spirit in us and that when it is watered by the rain, it will regenerate and florish the spiritual mind within us. This rain could be seen differently, like a gentle rain falling softly in the meadow. This water, which is the Water of Life is a spiritual water. It has been revealed to me that this water is The Word of God....more
Lou
Posted by Dena on April 7, 2008, at 2:17:26
In reply to Lou's reply to moonlightsonata2-lvrscnchrtough » moonlightsonata2, posted by Lou Pilder on March 28, 2008, at 20:45:44
Wow, sorry for the delay in the conversation here!
Lou, you said there's more -- what's the next part of what was revealed to you?
Shalom, Dena
"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."
"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2008, at 7:25:41
In reply to Lou's reply to moonlightsonata2-lvrscnchrtough » moonlightsonata2, posted by Lou Pilder on March 28, 2008, at 20:45:44
> > Dear Lou,
> > You always say "it has been revealed to me that...." What do you mean by this? Who has revealed it to you? How have you come to all these realizations? What should I do if I want things revealed to me, too?
>
> moonlightsonata2,
> You asked about what receiving revelation entails.
> This is something that IMO could change your life today. You see, I have been writing about two minds, the mind of the flesh, or carnal mind, and the mind of the spirit.
> I have also been writing about the thinking of the two minds and that there is a great gulf separating the two minds that one can cross over. This crossing over could be looked at as {comming over} to the spiritual mind and {comming over} could also be looked at as {overcomming}.
> It has been revealed to me that the crossing over from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind can be done in many ways and that there are three things to overcome that could allow one to cross over from the carnal to the spiritual mind. These three things are the world, the flesh and the devil.
> It has been revealed to me that to be carnally minded is death and to be spiritually minded is life and peace, for the thinking in the two minds are different.
> It has been revealed to me that there is a Way that could have one be bridged to come over to the spiritual mind to Life in the spirit. It has been revealed to me that one can find the Way and the Life.
> I have been writing about the beast that came out of the sea, which has been revealed to me to be the carnal mind, death. I believe that when one sees the beast come out of the sea that that is one way that could lead one to the Great Gulf and want to cross over to the spiritual mind.
> It has been revealed to me that we have a seed of the spirit in us and that when it is watered by the rain, it will regenerate and florish the spiritual mind within us. This rain could be seen differently, like a gentle rain falling softly in the meadow. This water, which is the Water of Life is a spiritual water. It has been revealed to me that this water is The Word of God....more
> Lou
>mls2 and Dena,
The topic that I think is important here is mls2's question,[...what should I do...?]
Friends, if you are reading this , then I think that there could be the most dramatic change in your life to happen soon. I say soon because it has been revealed to me that when one wants to know the answer to that question that they are in the latter days that could lead to the Kingdom of God. I believe that when one asks that question that they are standing on one side of the Great Gulf, the gulf between that separates the carnal mind from the spiritual mind and that one wants to cross over to the spiritual kingdom which has been revealed to me to be Light and peace, from the carnal mind, which has been revealed to me to be darkness and death.
In order to have a Way to bridge the Great Gulf to come over to the Kingdom of God, it has been revealed to me that we can not do so on our own, for the great gulf is so wide and so deep, with sheer cliffs, that the human ability is insufficient to jump or climb over to the Kingdom of God.
There is a book that the Jews use in their scriptures that is called Genesis that tells of man's creation and in it there writes what I have experianced. In the 2end chapter, the 25th verse we read,[...And they were both naked...and were not ashemaed...].
That was before they ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil. They were not ashamed!
Then they ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and we read in chapter 3 the 7th verse,[...And the eyes of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons...]
Then in chapter 3 verse 21 we read that in this time of the beginning of the foundation of the world, God made coats of skins and clothed them. It has been revealed to me that God slayed an animal for that animal's skin to cover the nakedness of mankind, for the apron of fig leaves that man makes on his own could deteriorate.
And it has been revealed to me that when God slew the animal for the skin to cover their nakedness, then blood was shed of that animal.
It has been revealed to me that in our latter days when we are standing on the edge of the Great Gulf that we are naked. more...
Lou
Posted by Dena on April 8, 2008, at 19:14:57
In reply to Lou's reply to mls2 and Dena-crzovr, posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2008, at 7:25:41
This is good, Lou... I can see echos of the story of rescue from the very beginning...
Keep going -- I'd like to see how it ties in to the question, "What should I do?"
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2008, at 20:12:53
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to mls2 and Dena-crzovr » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on April 8, 2008, at 19:14:57
> This is good, Lou... I can see echos of the story of rescue from the very beginning...
>
> Keep going -- I'd like to see how it ties in to the question, "What should I do?"
>
> Shalom, DenaDena,
You wrote,[..."what should I do?"...]
It has been revealed to me that the natural man, the carnal man, the flesh man, has clothed himself and that his clothes are temporary devices to hide his nakedness. It has been revealed to me that when one stands on the edge of the Great Gulf, that person , like Adam and Eve, know that they are naked and know that their fig leaves withered and that their nakedness is shown, they are uncovered in the sight of God.
It has been revealed to me that when I am writing about man being clothed or naked, that I am writing about the nature of man, either the carnal minded man or the spiritual minded man, so that those that are naked in the spiritual nature, are not ashamed, for Adam and Eve were not ashamed untill they ate of the tree of knowlege of good and evil, that the serpent said that they would not die if they ate of it.
When Adam and Eve knew that they were naked after eating of the tree of the knoelege of good and evil, they wanted to cover themselves, for they knew that they were naked.
It has been revealed to me that God will give a covering that when one is covered by it , that they will not be ashamed, that it will be spiritual clothing from heaven when we Passover the Great Gulf.
When I stood at the edge of the Great Gulf I knew that there was someone that lived that could help me overcome to Passover the Great Gulf and stand in my latter day upon the earth and that I would see God for myself. more...
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 16, 2008, at 20:59:07
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-blsdrthepurnhart » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on April 8, 2008, at 20:12:53
> > This is good, Lou... I can see echos of the story of rescue from the very beginning...
> >
> > Keep going -- I'd like to see how it ties in to the question, "What should I do?"
> >
> > Shalom, Dena
>
> Dena,
> You wrote,[..."what should I do?"...]
> It has been revealed to me that the natural man, the carnal man, the flesh man, has clothed himself and that his clothes are temporary devices to hide his nakedness. It has been revealed to me that when one stands on the edge of the Great Gulf, that person , like Adam and Eve, know that they are naked and know that their fig leaves withered and that their nakedness is shown, they are uncovered in the sight of God.
> It has been revealed to me that when I am writing about man being clothed or naked, that I am writing about the nature of man, either the carnal minded man or the spiritual minded man, so that those that are naked in the spiritual nature, are not ashamed, for Adam and Eve were not ashamed untill they ate of the tree of knowlege of good and evil, that the serpent said that they would not die if they ate of it.
> When Adam and Eve knew that they were naked after eating of the tree of the knoelege of good and evil, they wanted to cover themselves, for they knew that they were naked.
> It has been revealed to me that God will give a covering that when one is covered by it , that they will not be ashamed, that it will be spiritual clothing from heaven when we Passover the Great Gulf.
> When I stood at the edge of the Great Gulf I knew that there was someone that lived that could help me overcome to Passover the Great Gulf and stand in my latter day upon the earth and that I would see God for myself. more...
> LouDena,
You asked as to what to do.
When I was standing on the edge of the Great Gulf, I wrote some previously concerning that, but not everything.
When I was there, I saw the other side way far away. But then I felt the the earth move under my feet and rocks were falling down the cliffs and the walls of the cliffs rumbled. Then the walls of the cliff moved toward each other, slowly and huge rocks tumbled down. I was on top of a mountain and the cliff walls kept moving toward each other untill a rope bridge was thrown from the other side and landed at my feet.
I walked over to the other side and there were a great multitude of baby sheep, lambs, and a Rider on a White Horse. I asked the Rider how this happened and He said to me, "Your small amount of faith has moved mountains."
Lou
Posted by Dena on April 20, 2008, at 1:05:22
In reply to Lou's reply to Dena-tpety, posted by Lou Pilder on April 16, 2008, at 20:59:07
Sorry for the delay, Lou - I was off on a wild and wonderful adventure in NYC...! ;)
So, what happened next? What was this about?
Shalom, Dena
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