![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 667 to 691 of 795. Go back in thread:
Posted by Bryte on August 21, 2014, at 1:30:30
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2014, at 23:40:38
> You and Lou do seem to have something in common, interest or concern about harm that might arise from my activities here.It is interesting that you notice a common interest in harm reduction but do not include yourself in that group that shares concerns about harm that could arise from your activities here. Do you think my concerns are different than your concerns?
If you recognize that people can be harmed by capricious enforcement of arbitrary, ad hoc rules, how do you choose whom you will expose to such potential harm?
Posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 11:19:42
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 21, 2014, at 1:30:30
There have been several times over the past years when I have been pretty much the only person receiving sanctions, despite the fact that my comments are widely considered (by other community members) to be extremely moderate in comparison to others posted at the same time, and are often applied because of my request that mild, intermittent sanctions be applied to posts which appeared extremely destructive to the well-being of community as a whole.
The excessive retribution directed at my comments has been repeatedly characterized by other community members as "unfair", "bullying" and "capricious". I think it would be next to impossible to 1) avoid the impression that they are written with an intent to cause me stress and harm, and 2) that there is no constructive principle which would justify them. These actions appear to be caused by personal emotional reactions towards my comments which are not subjected to thoughtful review.
Treating different community members by differing standards, which are never made clear, may confer a sense of power and control temporarily. But all social groups need uniform, fairly- applied expectations and standards in order to survive and flourish. I believe it is very valid that you are drawing attention to the fact that they are missing here, and are very much needed.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:43:04
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2014, at 0:00:31
> > > As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
> > >
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
> >
> > I see no revision at all
>
> Before, I said:
>
> > > > I would assume that if something is brought to Dr. Bob's attention and he does nothing that he thought it was not against the rules.
> > >
> > > Right
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
>
> Above, I revised that:
>
> > > I might consider something against the rules, yet decide not to intervene.
>
> --
>
> > to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet
>
> I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ.
>
> > the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew.
>
> A subset of readers could see that as a condition that was implied. I myself see it as a conclusion that could be jumped to.
>
> > Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
>
> I agree, if I don't sanction it, harm could come to you. But that's only one side of the equation. If I do sanction it, could harm come to others?
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote in my response to you that for there to be a revision the FAQ would need to have the revision in it as to be a disclosure to the readers here, that:
[...I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ...].
Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/2014004/msgs/1068732.html
Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
What was behind you writing that?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:45:53
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-bhdphay » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:43:04
> > > > As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
> > >
> > > I see no revision at all
> >
> > Before, I said:
> >
> > > > > I would assume that if something is brought to Dr. Bob's attention and he does nothing that he thought it was not against the rules.
> > > >
> > > > Right
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
> >
> > Above, I revised that:
> >
> > > > I might consider something against the rules, yet decide not to intervene.
> >
> > --
> >
> > > to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet
> >
> > I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ.
> >
> > > the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew.
> >
> > A subset of readers could see that as a condition that was implied. I myself see it as a conclusion that could be jumped to.
> >
> > > Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
> >
> > I agree, if I don't sanction it, harm could come to you. But that's only one side of the equation. If I do sanction it, could harm come to others?
> >
> > Bob
>
> Mr. Hsiung,
> You wrote in my response to you that for there to be a revision the FAQ would need to have the revision in it as to be a disclosure to the readers here, that:
> [...I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ...].
> Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/2014004/msgs/1068732.html
> Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
> What was behind you writing that?
> Lou Pilder
>
correction to link
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:50:40
In reply to correction to link for -bhdphay, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:45:53
> > > > > As a result of our discussion, I reconsidered and revised that:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1069145.html
> > > >
> > > > I see no revision at all
> > >
> > > Before, I said:
> > >
> > > > > > I would assume that if something is brought to Dr. Bob's attention and he does nothing that he thought it was not against the rules.
> > > > >
> > > > > Right
> > >
> > > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041109/msgs/423771.html
> > >
> > > Above, I revised that:
> > >
> > > > > I might consider something against the rules, yet decide not to intervene.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > > to make the revision, there would have to be some disclosure that has not been posted in your TOS/FAQ yet
> > >
> > > I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ.
> > >
> > > > the grammatical structure has an implied condition for salvation, that is to be a Christian and not a Jew.
> > >
> > > A subset of readers could see that as a condition that was implied. I myself see it as a conclusion that could be jumped to.
> > >
> > > > Let us reason together. If you change your rule to allow you to leave defamation toward the Jews and me here un sanctioned, could not even more harm could come to me and Jews here? If not, why not?
> > >
> > > I agree, if I don't sanction it, harm could come to you. But that's only one side of the equation. If I do sanction it, could harm come to others?
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Mr. Hsiung,
> > You wrote in my response to you that for there to be a revision the FAQ would need to have the revision in it as to be a disclosure to the readers here, that:
> > [...I disagree, some clarifications are posted here and never make it into the FAQ...].
> > Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/2014004/msgs/1068732.html
> > Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
> > What was behind you writing that?
> > Lou Pilder
> >
> correction to link
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
>
correction to the correction:
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
Posted by pontormo on August 21, 2014, at 19:45:41
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion » Bryte, posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 11:19:42
Hi Twinleaf,
I often agree with aspects of your critique of some of what's happened-- or at least with how certain things have been handled-- but I I hope you don't really believe that it's next to impossible to avoid the impression that what Bob writes is meant to cause you stress and harm.
I still believe that whatever Bob's mistakes-- or at least choices that I think unhelpful or even misguided-- he makes them honestly-- and while I may not understand why he handles things as he does, he'is trying to do the best he can by us.
I can be frustrated, or uncomfortable with things here-- or outright not like them, or upset by them (at least momentarily), but I can keep coming here only because I do believe in Bob's and our good faith.
It's very sad to me that you are unable to see this right now-- and I hope, on reflection, that you can sense that even if he has been unfair in some respects-- or not expressed things well-- he doesn't intend to cause you harm.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 20:43:58
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by pontormo on August 21, 2014, at 19:45:41
> Hi Twinleaf,
>
> I often agree with aspects of your critique of some of what's happened-- or at least with how certain things have been handled-- but I I hope you don't really believe that it's next to impossible to avoid the impression that what Bob writes is meant to cause you stress and harm.
>
> I still believe that whatever Bob's mistakes-- or at least choices that I think unhelpful or even misguided-- he makes them honestly-- and while I may not understand why he handles things as he does, he'is trying to do the best he can by us.
>
> I can be frustrated, or uncomfortable with things here-- or outright not like them, or upset by them (at least momentarily), but I can keep coming here only because I do believe in Bob's and our good faith.
>
> It's very sad to me that you are unable to see this right now-- and I hope, on reflection, that you can sense that even if he has been unfair in some respects-- or not expressed things well-- he doesn't intend to cause you harm.pontormo,
You wrote,[...I hope you really don't believe that it is next to impossible to avoid the impression that what Bob writes is meant to cause you harm and stress...I believe...he doesn't intend to cause you harm...].
The aspect as to if Twinleaf has a rational basis to think what she does, involves what a generally accepted understanding is concerning what a reasonable person could believe concerning discrimination and what the research shows as to what can happen to the psychological/emotional damage that could happen to a person as the result of being a victim of discrimination.
One question is s to if you know the intent of Mr. Hsiung here. I have the following concerns.
A. How did you arrive at the belief that you have that Mr. Hsiung does not intend to cause harm to twinleaf?
B. Does it really matter if the intent of Mr. Hsiung is to not cause harm but harm happens anyway?
C. Is the standard that Mr. Hsiung {should know}, even if he doesn't know, what can cause emotional distress if he is going to chair a mental-health forum for support?
Lou
Posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 21:59:01
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by pontormo on August 21, 2014, at 19:45:41
Well....I don't think there is any doubt that I have been repeatedly singled out in a negative way, but I guess you are right - I can't really know what the motive actually is.
It has definitely been a very uncomfortable experience.
Posted by Bryte on August 21, 2014, at 23:42:45
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion » pontormo, posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 21:59:01
> It has definitely been a very uncomfortable experience.
One wonders to what extent discomfort is symptomatic of harm. One might suspect that, when reports of discomfort accumulate, harm might also be present.
The question with regard to harm might not be limited to whether something "is meant to cause you stress and harm." Intentional harm might incur a different or greater liability, but liability might also attach when an owner neglects duties of care. One can find numerous online sources to explain those concepts.
Much discussion of forum providers' liability addresses vicarious liability and contributory liability - especially as it relates to service provider definitions. In a venue where a mental health forum owner promises "The Best of Both Worlds," asserts that "posts I take responsibility for are my own," claims a right to "use (contributed content) as I wish" and exercises substantial, active control over what content is contributed, one might wonder to what extent questions of direct liability might arise.
It might be an accurate observation that many forum providers have opted for less overt involvement, have quietly removed potentially harmful content and have allowed members to remove or edit their own contributed content in part as means to avoid direct liability and clearly establish the owners' role as mere service providers.
It could be interesting to explore how many forum owners have persuaded liability underwriters the wisdom of making public, permanent examples of members in experimental efforts to explain ambiguous milieu expectations a professional leader cannot or will not explain in a TOS document - especially in contexts where membership predictably includes a significant proportion of at risk members.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2014, at 23:48:42
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion » pontormo, posted by Twinleaf on August 21, 2014, at 21:59:01
> excessive retribution directed at my comments
> repeatedly singled out in a negative way
Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: This block is the result of one action, but its length is the result of a pattern of actions. The block length formula:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
takes into account how long the previous block was, how long it's been since the previous block, and how uncivil the current post is:
duration of previous block = 2 weeks
period of time since previous block = 31 weeks
severity = 2 (default)
block length = 2.23 rounded = 2 weeks
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2014, at 23:51:57
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Bryte on August 21, 2014, at 1:30:30
> If you recognize that people can be harmed by capricious enforcement of arbitrary, ad hoc rules, how do you choose whom you will expose to such potential harm?
I don't choose to expose anyone to capricious enforcement of arbitrary, ad hoc rules.
Bob
Posted by Bryte on August 22, 2014, at 0:00:15
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Bryte discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2014, at 23:51:57
> I don't choose to expose anyone to capricious enforcement of arbitrary, ad hoc rules.
>
> Bob
Are you saying do not capriciously enforce arbitrary ad hoc rules - by your definition, or by anybody's definition?Or are you saying that you do not choose to do so... perhaps that you do not knowingly do so?
Do you maintain professional liability insurance related to your activities here?
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 22, 2014, at 0:25:33
In reply to correction to the correction to link for -bhdphay, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2014, at 15:50:40
> Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
> Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
> What was behind you writing that?You posted:
> that expectation , now, could lead them falsely into a community that is not going to uphold those terms of service for you now state that you can turn a blind eye to much and allow defamation to be posted and those readers do not know that. They do not know that because your TOS states otherwise.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068672.html
I posted:
> I wouldn't say the FAQ states otherwise. Where exactly do you think it does?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068700.html
You posted:
> The first and overriding part of your TOS is ... And further, you state that if a statement stands without sanction, it is not against your rules. ...
> Another aspect of the issue here is that you state that notifying the administration gets a post to you and your deputies. This gives an expectation that you will act on the notification, and in fact, you state that you will.http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068703.html
I posted:
> Where do I state that?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068723.html
You posted:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060690.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068727.html
I posted:
> That's not the FAQ.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068730.html
I was just trying to clarify what was in the FAQ and what wasn't.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 22, 2014, at 10:04:38
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 22, 2014, at 0:25:33
> > Let us look at this post and in it you say that it is not in the FAQ.
>
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068732.html
>
> > Now after reading what is in that post, you wrote about not being in the FAQ.
> > What was behind you writing that?
>
> You posted:
>
> > that expectation , now, could lead them falsely into a community that is not going to uphold those terms of service for you now state that you can turn a blind eye to much and allow defamation to be posted and those readers do not know that. They do not know that because your TOS states otherwise.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068672.html
>
> I posted:
>
> > I wouldn't say the FAQ states otherwise. Where exactly do you think it does?
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068700.html
>
> You posted:
>
> > The first and overriding part of your TOS is ... And further, you state that if a statement stands without sanction, it is not against your rules. ...
> > Another aspect of the issue here is that you state that notifying the administration gets a post to you and your deputies. This gives an expectation that you will act on the notification, and in fact, you state that you will.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068703.html
>
> I posted:
>
> > Where do I state that?
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068723.html
>
> You posted:
>
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060690.html
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068727.html
>
> I posted:
>
> > That's not the FAQ.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1068730.html
>
> I was just trying to clarify what was in the FAQ and what wasn't.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
What is the significance, if anything, as to something being in the FAQ not?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 26, 2014, at 13:36:54
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-efehycue » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 22, 2014, at 10:04:38
> > I was just trying to clarify what was in the FAQ and what wasn't.
>
> What is the significance, if anything, as to something being in the FAQ not?A subset of readers could see it as more "official" than posts here. But mostly I just wanted to correct the record.
Bob
PS: I've redirected follow-ups regarding liability and insurance to a separate "Hsiung-Bryte discussion" thread:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1070154.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 26, 2014, at 16:25:46
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 26, 2014, at 13:36:54
> > > I was just trying to clarify what was in the FAQ and what wasn't.
> >
> > What is the significance, if anything, as to something being in the FAQ not?
>
> A subset of readers could see it as more "official" than posts here. But mostly I just wanted to correct the record.
>
> Bob
>
> PS: I've redirected follow-ups regarding liability and insurance to a separate "Hsiung-Bryte discussion" thread:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1070154.htmlMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...what is in the FAQ could be considered by some to be more official than what is posted by me, Lou, outside of what I have posted in the FAQ...].
Let us suppose that fictional member comes here named Simon Szez. Simon reads the FAQ and takes you at your word. He reads that you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole. He reads also outside of the FAQ that if a post is brought to your attention and is not sanctioned, that whatever it says is not against the rules here in the FAQ.
Now you say that what is not in the FAQ is not as official as what is in the FAQ
By what rational basis could Simon have to think that?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 26, 2014, at 16:47:43
In reply to Lou's reply- The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-psymnsez » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 26, 2014, at 16:25:46
> > > > I was just trying to clarify what was in the FAQ and what wasn't.
> > >
> > > What is the significance, if anything, as to something being in the FAQ not?
> >
> > A subset of readers could see it as more "official" than posts here. But mostly I just wanted to correct the record.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > PS: I've redirected follow-ups regarding liability and insurance to a separate "Hsiung-Bryte discussion" thread:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20140304/msgs/1070154.html
>
> Mr. Hsiung,
> You wrote,[...what is in the FAQ could be considered by some to be more official than what is posted by me, Lou, outside of what I have posted in the FAQ...].
> Let us suppose that fictional member comes here named Simon Szez. Simon reads the FAQ and takes you at your word. He reads that you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole. He reads also outside of the FAQ that if a post is brought to your attention and is not sanctioned, that whatever it says is not against the rules here in the FAQ.
> Now you say that what is not in the FAQ is not as official as what is in the FAQ
> By what rational basis could Simon have to think that?
> Lou Pilder
>
> Mr. Hsiung,
Now Simon also sees that you revised what you wrote to essentially mean that you took back that if a statement is unsanctioned it is not against your rules to now mean that readers have to guess if what is in question is against your rules or not since you now say that you could leave an uncivil statement unsanctioned whereas before, the unsanctioned statement means that it could be not against your rules.
By what rational basis do you use to allow a statement here that defames or puts down or is antisemitic to remain unsanctioned?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 28, 2014, at 9:36:24
In reply to Lou's reply- The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-whtrat?, posted by Lou Pilder on August 26, 2014, at 16:47:43
> Now you say that what is not in the FAQ is not as official as what is in the FAQ
A subset of readers could see it as more "official" because it's in a central location.
> By what rational basis do you use to allow a statement here that defames or puts down or is antisemitic to remain unsanctioned?
I might not sanction a statement that a subset of readers could object to because that might be what I think will be best for this community as a whole.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 28, 2014, at 16:42:30
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 28, 2014, at 9:36:24
> > Now you say that what is not in the FAQ is not as official as what is in the FAQ
>
> A subset of readers could see it as more "official" because it's in a central location.
>
> > By what rational basis do you use to allow a statement here that defames or puts down or is antisemitic to remain unsanctioned?
>
> I might not sanction a statement that a subset of readers could object to because that might be what I think will be best for this community as a whole.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
A. You wrote,[...readers could see it as more official because it is in a central location...(the FAQ)...].
B. You also wrote,[...I might not sanction (anti-Semitic statements and defamation toward you, Lou), because that might be what I think will be best for this community as a whole...]
In "A", your rationale for thinking that what is in the FAQ is more official than what you post outside the FAQ is concerning the location of the two. The truth or falsity of your rationale could be determined through an arduous process to not be true or to be true. This is because a citation that could substantiate the veracity of your rationale is not included in your post here so that a rational basis for your claim is also not posted by you . This could mislead a subset of readers to a false conclusion by accepting your claim as fact because you state here that readers are to try to trust you, even though you have been wrong previously in discussions with me here. By you making up a standard without substantiation, if the standard is false, then your conclusion could also be false.
But it is much more than that. For there are readers that take you at your word and when they see:
1. members are to be civil at all times
2. even a small statement could lead someone to feel put down
3. being supportive takes precedence
4. anti-Semitic statements are not civil
5. Do not post what could lead someone to feel that their faith is being put down.
6. and other similar statements posted here by you
And when they see those and others, they see them as that you are clarifying your TOS/FAQ and that clarification to a subset of readers goes back to the FAQ/TOS as clarification with the same official meaning. They have a rational basis to think that because those statements by you listed here by me have not been taken back by you except the one in this thread that you say is a "revision" that a subset of readers could see as a take-back of what you wrote. The others have not been taken back and can be seen as a rationale basis to be as clarifications to your FAQ/TOS.
But be it as it may be, your FAQ/TOS states that you use fairness and the Golden Rule in your site. My questions are:
AA. How could the statements by you that I have listed here, like being supportive takes precedence, not be just as official as what is in the FAQ?
BB. What do you mean by "location"?
CC. Are you going to post in your FAQ that statements by you outside of the FAQ are not clarifications of FAQ?
DD. The golden Rule in Judaism involves justice and morality. How does that Golden Rule allow you to be either be arbitrary, capricious or discriminatory , if you agree that your use of selective enforcement could be thought by a subset of readers to be another name for using discrimination by not applying your rules equally?
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2014, at 0:25:09
In reply to Lou's reply in part-The Hsi-Pil discussion-ehevehy » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 28, 2014, at 16:42:30
> > A subset of readers could see [the FAQ] as more "official" because it's in a central location.
>
> your rationale for thinking that what is in the FAQ is more official than what you post outside the FAQ is concerning the location of the two.I'm not saying that it actually is more official, just that a subset of readers could see it as more official.
> readers are to try to trust you, even though you have been wrong previously in discussions with me here.
True, no one's perfect. I did admit I was wrong.
> The others have not been taken back and can be seen as a rationale basis to be as clarifications to your FAQ/TOS.
True, a subset of readers could see them that way.
> DD. The golden Rule in Judaism involves justice and morality. How does that Golden Rule allow you to be either be arbitrary, capricious or discriminatory , if you agree that your use of selective enforcement could be thought by a subset of readers to be another name for using discrimination by not applying your rules equally?
I think of the Golden Rule as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I'd like others to use their judgment when applying rules to me, so I use my judgment when applying rules to them.
True, a subset of readers could see using judgment as discrimination.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 29, 2014, at 10:47:34
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2014, at 0:25:09
> > > A subset of readers could see [the FAQ] as more "official" because it's in a central location.
> >
> > your rationale for thinking that what is in the FAQ is more official than what you post outside the FAQ is concerning the location of the two.
>
> I'm not saying that it actually is more official, just that a subset of readers could see it as more official.
>
> > readers are to try to trust you, even though you have been wrong previously in discussions with me here.
>
> True, no one's perfect. I did admit I was wrong.
>
> > The others have not been taken back and can be seen as a rationale basis to be as clarifications to your FAQ/TOS.
>
> True, a subset of readers could see them that way.
>
> > DD. The golden Rule in Judaism involves justice and morality. How does that Golden Rule allow you to be either be arbitrary, capricious or discriminatory , if you agree that your use of selective enforcement could be thought by a subset of readers to be another name for using discrimination by not applying your rules equally?
>
> I think of the Golden Rule as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I'd like others to use their judgment when applying rules to me, so I use my judgment when applying rules to them.
>
> True, a subset of readers could see using judgment as discrimination.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...True, a subset of readers could see using judgment as discrimination...].
The Golden Rule in Judaism involves judgment, but it involves how judgment is administrated by the Torah. Now if you are referring to using your judgment in applying your rules based on making a judgment as to if statements do or do not put down or accuse or are not sensitive to the feelings of others or that could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down or jumps to conclusion or is defamatory or racist ect., that is different from choosing which members you will enforce your rules upon. I could use Twinleaf here in the latest enforcement of your rules as an example as to if your enforcement was because you judged that what was written by her put down or accused or that you sanctioned her for other reasons as to some judgment by you. The recipient of the put down was granted the equal protection of your rules. I am going to assume that you are saying that you use your judgment to determine if what was written by her or anyone else constitutes being not in accordance with your rules. Those that are ignorant of Judaism could conceivably accept your reply to me here to believe that the equal protection of the laws and justice defined in the Torah can just be turned a blind eye to by you here in the enforcement of your rules . They could think that anti-Semitism could be allowed to be seen as civil where it is originally posted and defamation toward me also on the basis of if they accept your reply to me here that you say that the Golden Rule, if you are referring to the applying of your rules allows you to not apply your rules equally on the basis that you say that you would like others to use judgment when applying rules to me, so I use my judgment in applying rules to them. The Torah speaks to equality and justice in terms of equality. Jefferson, in his opening passage in the Declaration of Independence, wrote,[...it is self-evident that all men are created equal...]. And later the Constitution incorporated the equal protection of the law clause. And I could show his statement comes from Judaism.
To say what you say is the Golden Rule, leaves out e rest of the Torah. If one was to accept your version of the golden Rule, then a judge could not sentence someone to be executed because he/she could invoke your Golden Rule and say that they will not sentence the guilty part to be executed because thy would not want to be executed. The difference is that the judge has an obligation to enforce the law, and to enforce it equally. You are in the position of authority to enforce your rules, and think that by you not enforcing your rules equally, that great harm can come to those that you do enforce your rules to, as they could feel that thy are being mistreated as being a victim of discrimination that could stigmatize them and give them feelings of unworthiness and potentially contribute to any suicide here.
I have come here to save lives. Lives that I see as being devalued by discrimination in that you use selective enforcement in applying your rules and I see that you use connecting that the Golden Rule justifies discrimination in the enforcement of your rules here. I say not, and there is the potential for a subset of Jews to feel insulted by reading what your version of the golden Rule allows as the enforcer of your rules here. If you are going to continue to ue your selective enforcement and allow anti-Semitic statements and defamation against me to be seen as civil and supportive and will be good for this community as a whole where they are originally posted, then I ask you to do right now:
A. Go to your FAQ/TOS and revise where the golden Rule is to state your version of the Golden Rule
B. Go to all the outstanding notifications from me and post the same sanction there of putting me down in the same way that you did Twinleaf
C. Post an apology to Twinleaf that you regret using unequal enforcement of your rules because it is well-known in the psychiatric literature what harm could come to those being victims of discrimination, which you agree that there could be a subset of people that see your selective enforcement as another name for discrimination.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 31, 2014, at 22:46:46
In reply to Lou's reply-The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-psygmah » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on August 29, 2014, at 10:47:34
> The Golden Rule in Judaism involves judgment, but it involves how judgment is administrated by the Torah.
It's the judgment of rabbis that determines how the Torah is enforced?
> Now if you are referring to using your judgment in applying your rules based on making a judgment as to if statements do or do not put down or accuse or are not sensitive to the feelings of others or that could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down or jumps to conclusion or is defamatory or racist ect., that is different from choosing which members you will enforce your rules upon.
Whether I sanction a post or not doesn't depend on the poster. I don't just sanction the posts of posters I don't like and not sanction the posts of posters I do like. It's not personal. Or at least I try to keep my feelings about posters from entering into it.
> I am going to assume that you are saying that you use your judgment to determine if what was written by her or anyone else constitutes being not in accordance with your rules.
True, and I'm also using my judgment to determine what I think will be best for this community as a whole. I may judge a post not be in accordance with my rules and at the same time just sanctioning it not to be best for this community as a whole.
> Those that are ignorant of Judaism could conceivably accept your reply to me here to believe that the equal protection of the laws and justice defined in the Torah can just be turned a blind eye to by you here in the enforcement of your rules .
True, a subset of readers could conceivably believe that.
> If one was to accept your version of the golden Rule, then a judge could not sentence someone to be executed because he/she could invoke your Golden Rule and say that they will not sentence the guilty part to be executed because thy would not want to be executed. The difference is that the judge has an obligation to enforce the law, and to enforce it equally.
Judges sometimes have latitude. In some cases sentences are mandatory. Both sides have their supporters.
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 1, 2014, at 9:30:56
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on August 31, 2014, at 22:46:46
> > The Golden Rule in Judaism involves judgment, but it involves how judgment is administrated by the Torah.
>
> It's the judgment of rabbis that determines how the Torah is enforced?
>
> > Now if you are referring to using your judgment in applying your rules based on making a judgment as to if statements do or do not put down or accuse or are not sensitive to the feelings of others or that could lead one to feel that their faith is being put down or jumps to conclusion or is defamatory or racist ect., that is different from choosing which members you will enforce your rules upon.
>
> Whether I sanction a post or not doesn't depend on the poster. I don't just sanction the posts of posters I don't like and not sanction the posts of posters I do like. It's not personal. Or at least I try to keep my feelings about posters from entering into it.
>
> > I am going to assume that you are saying that you use your judgment to determine if what was written by her or anyone else constitutes being not in accordance with your rules.
>
> True, and I'm also using my judgment to determine what I think will be best for this community as a whole. I may judge a post not be in accordance with my rules and at the same time just sanctioning it not to be best for this community as a whole.
>
> > Those that are ignorant of Judaism could conceivably accept your reply to me here to believe that the equal protection of the laws and justice defined in the Torah can just be turned a blind eye to by you here in the enforcement of your rules .
>
> True, a subset of readers could conceivably believe that.
>
> > If one was to accept your version of the golden Rule, then a judge could not sentence someone to be executed because he/she could invoke your Golden Rule and say that they will not sentence the guilty part to be executed because thy would not want to be executed. The difference is that the judge has an obligation to enforce the law, and to enforce it equally.
>
> Judges sometimes have latitude. In some cases sentences are mandatory. Both sides have their supporters.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...Judges sometimes have latitude. In some cases sentences are mandatory..].
Let there be no misunderstanding here. The latitude by the judge could be in the degree of the sentence, but the judge could not say that what the person is being sentenced for was not against the rules, for if that was the case there would not be any sentence, for the person would be not guilty.
Here you are the judge. But you are allowing what is against your rules to be seen as not against your rules. You could sanction the statement and still give latitude in your sentences by you not sanctioning the person, but by posting your tagline to please be civil to the statement that is against your rule.
The statements that could arouse anti-Semitic feelings and put down and/or accuse Jews and lead a Jew to feel that their faith is being put down, and also defame me, because there is no sanction to those, a subset of readers could think that it is not against your rules to post anti-Semitic hate and defamation toward me here. They have a rational basis to think that on the grounds that your TOS states not to post anything that could lead one to feel put down or accused or to be disrespectful to another's faith, and more. In particular, but not limited to, that you state that support takes precedence. That means what it means. In what you have written here, what takes precedence is what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole. In allowing what is not supportive to be posted without sanction, a subset of readers could think that you have lied when you posted that support takes precedence. They have a rational basis to think that because by you leaving anti-Semitic statements unsanctioned here, and defamation against me here unsanctioned, which a subset of readers could think is grossly unsupportive in a diverse ethnic population here, that support does not take precedence since those readers could think that hate is not supportive. Those readers could also think that by you allowing the anti-Semitic hate to remain unsanctioned even after I have requested that those statements either be deleted or that you attach your tagline to please be civil to them, that *malice* is driving you to continue to allow the hatred toward the Jews that is in those post to be seen as to be good for this community as a whole according to your thinking. They could have a rational basis to think that because you had posted that if a statement is not sanctioned it is not against your rules. So they could think that it is not against your rules to post hatred toward the Jews and defamation against me since there are unsanctioned statements that are anti-Semitic and that defame me. You do say just recently that you "revise" that statement but I do not see any revision, just a post by you that essentially says that you are taking that back because there could be statements that put down Jews unsanctioned that are uncivil but you are going to allow them anyway to be seen as could be civil. Your post is {after the fact} which could mean to a subset of jurists to constitute malice toward me on the grounds that for years you have evaded my requests to sanction the anti-Semitic hate and defamation against me and that there are years of outstanding notifications from me to not only you, but to up to 6 deputies that could sanction those statements if they wanted to.
The defamation against the Jews that you are allowing to be seen as civil here is defamation to not just me as a Jew here but to all Jews. By you posting your "revision" just recently, there could be readers that do not see that post by you. Then there could also be readers that have left this community before you posted your "revision". But more than that, you have posted that even a small statement could lead one to feel put down which has not been revised, nor has your TOS been revised in that it still says not to post anything that could lead one to feel put down or accused. What a subset of readers could think now is that members can post anti-Semitism and defamation toward me and that it will be good for this community as a whole because you say now that you will leave defamation and anti-Semitism unsanctioned , as in the statements in question in our discussion here, because it could be good for this community as a whole for you to do so even though it is not supportive or civil. A subset of jurists could see that there is the malice.
Lou Pilder
Posted by pontormo on September 3, 2014, at 12:03:21
In reply to The Hsiung-Pilder discussion-mlisofphoarthot » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on September 1, 2014, at 9:30:56
I don't know if you recall it, Lou, but earlier this year, a subset of readers wrote that Bob showed preference toward you. They said he did not sanction posts of yours that, if they were posted by others, would have been sanctioned. They said that you were given a greater right to make statements that others would not have been allowed to make without a sanction.
It seems to me, then, that a subset of readers could think (and indeed did think) that you were being treated with greater respect and esteem than other posters at psychobabble. And if that is the case, they could also think that your reputation is being enhanced by Bob, and that you are being raised in the esteem of readers. They could think that readers might conclude that your posts are to be taken more seriously and given more importance than the posts of other posters.
And they could be (and were apparently) led to think that Bob is unfair to some posters on psychobabble (ie to the posters who would have been sanctioned).
In sum, a subset of readers could come to that conclusion, and yet another subset of readers could come to the conclusion that Bob allows defamation against you to stand, and that your reputation is therefore harmed.
It then becomes the question whether Bob should take further steps to show that no posters are being given preference and that all posters are being treated equally.
Could you answer the following questions, in a brief statement of an answer to each, so I could understand it clearly?
1. How does one know which subset of readers is correct? If being seen to be more civil by one subset involves being seen as less fair by another subset, which subset is more important? which subset's needs should be attended to? what if the FAQ, or prior statements of rules, through posts, or the tenets of any religion or theory that Bob believes in, do not give clear directions as to how to resolve such conflicts?2. How should Bob decide whether to act, when his judgment is questioned by subsets of readers with opposite beliefs?
3. Can he use his judgment in deciding how to resolve this problem?
4. If he should not use his judgment, how should he come to a decision as to whether to, or how to act?
I believe that Bob holds you in esteem, and that this is clearly visible; and that he has given you a forum to express and to argue your point of view in a way that allows another subset of readers, such as myself, a chance to understand your views.
But I would like to hear your answers to the questions that I have posed. This is not to start a debate with you on these questions, but to understand how you think on such issues.
Posted by bryte on September 3, 2014, at 19:00:22
In reply to What if subsets of readers disagree?, posted by pontormo on September 3, 2014, at 12:03:21
> 1. How does one know which subset of readers is correct?Who says any subset is correct? Or that one being correct rules out the other being correct?
>If being seen to be more civil by one subset involves being seen as less fair by another subset, which subset is more important?
Methods that are more readily seen may create deeper impressions than methods that are seen less. Hsiung elected a very visible method of intervention. Discussion of how it is seen may be a byproduct of the fact that it is seen.
> 2. How should Bob decide whether to act, when his judgment is questioned by subsets of readers with opposite beliefs?
Should? That is subjective. He could choose to act in a manner that is more embarrassing rather than less embarrassing, according to his published statements. In published journals he advised his professional peers believe there may be value in a method that is more embarrassing to some people as compared to methods used by other moderators in other groups.
> 3. Can he use his judgment in deciding how to resolve this problem?He has used his judgement. He chose to be very visible - not only in his methods, but in promoting his methods via peer reviewed publications, social media, appearance in a leading national newspapers and active explanation of his methods in a mental health forum otherwise intended for mutual support among peers. He has also in some cases limited discussion of his very public expression of his judgment, setting boundaries he claims or expects are recognizable by a significant portion of his group - even though a significant portion maintains the boundaries are not consistent or predictable. We do not know if his judgement is truly the best judgement for a group. He asserts knowledge of what is best for the group, but lacks any reliable measure of benefit other than anecdotes and the continued existence of the group.
> 4. If he should not use his judgment, how should he come to a decision as to whether to, or how to act?Humble leaders exercise judgment modestly. Leaders who trust their community trust the judgement of a community of peers. Many medical professionals rely on evidenced based practices. Evidence related to administration social networking has developed significantly since Hsiung established some basic methods from which he has not departed. Hsiung has based much of his practice on promoting, publicizing, defending or practicing his own methods rather than embracing judgements of a global community of social network providers that matured around him while his methods were informed in large part by decisions he made during the adolescence of his social network project.
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