![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 209 to 233 of 308. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on July 24, 2010, at 22:10:38
In reply to feeling equal » fayeroe, posted by gardenergirl on July 24, 2010, at 18:19:43
In some volunteer organisations people get on very well because, not being paid, they really have to be nice to each other for the organisation to work well.
It seems to me that the application of the civility rules has alienated a significant number of people and now Bob is reaching for a technical fix.
Some of those people would have gone anyway, and some would not.
It was something I really enjoyed on Politics, working out how to say what I wanted within the framework of the civility rules. Still, when there are blocks like Lil jimmy's for linking to a site critical of the torture policy of the previous Administration....and not everyone wants to spend hours figuring out how to say stuff. People just leave instead. For the record, I'm in favour of some kind of moderation and rules.
Posted by fayeroe on July 24, 2010, at 22:26:02
In reply to Re: feeling equal )fayeroe, posted by sigismund on July 24, 2010, at 22:10:38
Did you know that Lil' Jimmy lives in Austin? I am 35 miles southwest in a small town. I lost his email address so I don't know how to get in touch with him. I liked him a lot.
No doubt we need rules and moderation. We just don't need to be "tweaked" to death.
I am beginning to care less and less again. I know Bob will do whatever he pleases whether it will work for the posters or not.
Babble posts will be on every website that will take them.
Yeah, I really miss talking about politics. I talk to the dogs and cats now. :-) We've been discussing the new law that Arizona just passed that pertains to illegal immigration. Check it out. While you are at it, look at what is happening to a sheriff who dislikes the law. He is under the microscope of those who want everyone to enforce it. I believe his last name is Dobson. I'll check and email it to you. It is very interesting.
Pat
Posted by fayeroe on July 25, 2010, at 15:08:03
In reply to feeling equal » fayeroe, posted by gardenergirl on July 24, 2010, at 18:19:43
> That's quite a gift you give your students and loved ones.
> Way to go!
>
> ggThanks, I've found that working out in the real world certainly helps one see the big picture.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 2:53:10
In reply to Re: feeling equal )fayeroe » sigismund, posted by fayeroe on July 24, 2010, at 22:26:02
> Yeah, I really miss talking about politics.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect more social posts to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20100716/msgs/955946.html
If it keeps being about politics, I might redirect it again. :-)
That'll be considered a different thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 3:57:28
In reply to Re: blocked for week » chujoe, posted by fayeroe on July 24, 2010, at 10:12:01
> So the poster originating the thread awards the helpfulness points?
>
> So that we can de facto opt out by choosing not to reply to anyone who decides to use the system?Yes, or you could just opt out:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955117.html
> I don't think I'd particularly want to converse with people who only thank some of the people who care enough to take the trouble to respond to their threads.
Do you only converse now with people who thank everyone who responds to their threads?
> he also says that other posters could see how "helpful" you've been to other posters. I suppose Dr. Bob thinks it's ok to think that degrees of value are ok here. I think it's a recipe for disaster.
>
> DinahI think it's clear that some people are considered helpful by more posters and some by fewer. Differences between members of a community are a fact of life. Why would acknowledging that be a disaster?
--
> A poster may not be ready to hear something which is SUPER helpful, crafted by a PhD, etc., but we may simply not know the poster all that well. Could be a quiet one, or a newbie. So we try our best. Poster may not be ready to hear this great, supportive idea. So poster could rate the post NOT helpful.
>
> WTH? Who the BLEEP does that help?? What am I missing here Bob?1. There wouldn't be a "not helpful" button:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955563.html
2. The poster would consider other posts helpful.
3. Those people would feel good for having been considered helpful.
4. The original poster would feel good for having thanked them.
5. The PhD would learn what kind of posts that poster feels helped by.
6. Other posters might consider the PhD's posts helpful.
> It's a volatile time here Bob....cut folks some slack, wouldcha? Just post a general - "please be nicer so I don't have to block a bunch of yous knuckleheads", might be useful.
>
> BayLeafI tried something like that:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955115.html
Other posters might be useful, too. :-)
--
> I've never posted to anyone expecting a score/rating/reward.
Have you ever appreciated being thanked?
> It would be nice if members felt like we have a partnership with Bob. I ain't feeling it.
>
> fayeroeI sense a lot of anxiety, but I think posters still have some misunderstandings, and are continuing to clarify their concerns, and I'm trying to address those. A partnership can be hard work.
Bob
Posted by vwoolf on July 26, 2010, at 6:38:10
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 3:57:28
I've been thinking more about the point system, and although I still feel very uncomfortable about it, I am beginning to see that there might be some value in it.
If a board like this can have an educational and socialising (i.e. therapeutic)effect on its members through a system like this, perhaps it would not be a bad idea and we as users should be more open to exploring the possibilities. In other words, if it could be carrying out a kind of low-grade behavioral therapy at no cost to anyone, should we fight it so hard?
There are problems though.
It seems to me that there are at least two different kinds of communication that happen on this board.
The first is the kind of post that is typical of the medication board, where the focus is mostly on an exchange of information. The questions are purposeful and have to do with objects (meds).
I think it would be very easy to implement a points system here, e.g. Is the reply helpful, yes/no? Did I get the right information, yes/no?No one would be hurt at being rated for their ability to convey knowledge - at least, I don't think so.The kind of post that is typical of the psychology board is very different. It is usually about feelings, often quite extreme feelings, where the poster is looking for understanding, empathy and support. To rate this is, to my mind, not possible through the fixed, yes/no questions that would be required for a points system. The psychology board deals much more with the symbolic, which cannot be reduced to simple black and white reasoning. That's one of the wonderful things about the symbolic.
It seems to me that most of the people who are objecting to the points system are people who are normally very active on the psychology board. I don't think that this is because they are any more stubborn than the people on the meds board, but that they feel that they have much more to lose. A points system would flatten the nature of the interactions that take place here.
I would like to suggest that the points system, if it is to be implemented, should be tried out first on the medication board, and only at a later stage, with much consultation with the users, on the psychology board.
Posted by Dinah on July 26, 2010, at 8:12:30
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 3:57:28
> > I don't think I'd particularly want to converse with people who only thank some of the people who care enough to take the trouble to respond to their threads.
>
> Do you only converse now with people who thank everyone who responds to their threads?It's not something that often comes up. Most people either thank generally or thank everyone. Thanking taking the form of responding and acknowledging. If someone "thanks" some posters but not others on occasion, I do them the courtesy of assuming it was accidental. Certainly it's all too possible to start answering your thread and get distracted, only to forget to return until you've forgotten what you meant to do. If someone routinely forgets to "thank" my posts while "thanking" others, I certainly note it and recognize I am unhelpful to that poster and think twice about responding to them. If someone routinely does it to others, I note it and consider what it might mean. What I conclude will influence my future posting decisions, yes.
> > he also says that other posters could see how "helpful" you've been to other posters. I suppose Dr. Bob thinks it's ok to think that degrees of value are ok here. I think it's a recipe for disaster.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> I think it's clear that some people are considered helpful by more posters and some by fewer. Differences between members of a community are a fact of life. Why would acknowledging that be a disaster?Lots of things are a fact of life. Lots of things are true. I thought it had long since been decided on Babble that just because something was true, pointing it out was not necessarily either civil or kind.
I am absurdly disappointed that you have changed your mind about that.
And yes, I think changing the civility standards in a community of this size, with a group of regular posters who have to live with each other later would be a disaster to said community.
You aren't easily hurt Dr. Bob. Or at least you don't seem to be. But I think you need to consider that this is not necessarily true of others.
Also, you've been relentlessly positive in your description of this process. Could you tell me how you'd feel if a poster rated everyone else on a thread helpful except you? If your ranking was lower than that of the average poster? Pretend you're one of the less confident and assured people when answering.
Posted by Dinah on July 26, 2010, at 8:27:01
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by vwoolf on July 26, 2010, at 6:38:10
I agree. I've long said that this would be most appropriate when the answers are clearcut and either right or wrong. If you're looking for information only, it might be appropriate.
Particularly on some large (non-mental health) boards I've seen where there was a large amount of answering that was neither to the point nor particularly caring. If you're looking for a response to a particular question, it helps to know who is willing to actually answer.
Babble is neither large, nor are some boards fact oriented. It consists of a relatively small but fluid and shifting community of posters who remain together in that community for a period of time.
And as you say, some boards are just not oriented to topics that fall into a helpful/unhelpful category. People on Social aren't usually looking for a factual response. Psychology also is not really a place where that would be useful. At least not on Babble unless it grows way way way bigger. I can only imagine what it would look like on Politics or Faith.
I've been suggesting that Dr. Bob designate a board for this type of information exchange. An "answers" board perhaps. Where people who don't wish to be part of an ongoing community, who only want an answer to their questions, can post. They would get whatever benefits Dr. Bob would wish them to get from rating. And it would affect the community at Babble less because while it would do the weeding out of less "helpful" responders that Dr. Bob seems to desire, it wouldn't weed them out of the community. Just that board.
Posted by fayeroe on July 26, 2010, at 11:23:02
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 3:57:28
"I sense a lot of anxiety, but I think posters still have some misunderstandings, and are continuing to clarify their concerns, and I'm trying to address those. A partnership can be hard work."
BobI don't sense any anxiety in our posts. I think that frustration is a more accurate description. Why would we feel anxious when we are talking about not feeling that there is a partnership here between administration and the members? It isn't as if something is being taken away from us.
I feel that a partnership can be hard work if there is no opportunity for it.I feel it is virtually impossible to attain a partnership when the members are given nothing to work with.
Posted by fayeroe on July 26, 2010, at 11:32:44
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by vwoolf on July 26, 2010, at 6:38:10
"If a board like this can have an educational and socialising (i.e. therapeutic)effect on its members through a system like this, perhaps it would not be a bad idea and we as users should be more open to exploring the possibilities. In other words, if it could be carrying out a kind of low-grade behavioral therapy at no cost to anyone, should we fight it so hard?"
I feel that there would be a cost to posters and it could be in an emotional sense. I feel that hurting someone with a "reward/points" system would be awful. There are posters here who lived through something like that when they were in their parent's home and this could produce feelings that they have worked hard to overcome.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2010, at 1:42:37
In reply to Re: Rewards » vwoolf, posted by fayeroe on July 26, 2010, at 11:32:44
> I've been thinking more about the point system, and although I still feel very uncomfortable about it, I am beginning to see that there might be some value in it.
>
> The kind of post that is typical of the psychology board ... is usually about feelings, often quite extreme feelings, where the poster is looking for understanding, empathy and support. To rate this is, to my mind, not possible through the fixed, yes/no questions that would be required for a points system.
>
> I would like to suggest that the points system, if it is to be implemented, should be tried out first on the medication board, and only at a later stage, with much consultation with the users, on the psychology board.
>
> vwoolfThanks for being willing to consider the potential benefits.
If a poster is looking for understanding, empathy, and support, they could simply reward those who respond with understanding, empathy, and support:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955117.html
That's a good point, thanks, lots of times it's better to roll out changes in stages.
--
> If someone routinely forgets to "thank" my posts while "thanking" others, I certainly note it and recognize I am unhelpful to that poster and think twice about responding to them.
May I ask if you feel hurt by that?
> Lots of things are a fact of life. Lots of things are true. I thought it had long since been decided on Babble that just because something was true, pointing it out was not necessarily either civil or kind.
I agree, pointing out that someone hasn't been thanked many times might be considered uncivil.
> Could you tell me how you'd feel if a poster rated everyone else on a thread helpful except you? If your ranking was lower than that of the average poster? Pretend you're one of the less confident and assured people when answering.
>
> DinahI might post that I feel unappreciated and unhelpful. Someone else might post what they like about me. I might feel appreciated and reward them for being helpful to me. And then I might feel helpful to them.
--
> it would do the weeding out of less "helpful" responders that Dr. Bob seems to desire
>
> Dinah> > I sense a lot of anxiety
>
> I don't sense any anxiety in our posts. I think that frustration is a more accurate description.For example, I sense anxiety about being hurt and being weeded out. I certainly do sense frustration, too!
> I feel that hurting someone with a "reward/points" system would be awful. There are posters here who lived through something like that when they were in their parent's home and this could produce feelings that they have worked hard to overcome.
>
> fayeroeHow might parents hurt a child with a reward system?
Bob
Posted by chujoe on July 27, 2010, at 6:31:10
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2010, at 1:42:37
I am very skeptical regarding any points or reward system at Babble. I used to hang around a couple of sites that allowed ratings & it became clear pretty quickly that the system is easy to abuse in several different ways. Even someone as "wise and compassionate" as me* was often tempted to rate down people I disagreed with politically, for example. Sometimes, the rating system itself becomes a kind of meta-subject in a thread, to the detriment of the actual subject. But my main concern would be that some people would be better at working the system than others, resulting in an in group & an out group & surely that would be a major problem for a community like Psychobabble, which presents itself as inclusive and supportive. There are lots of examples around the internet of sites dominated by fanboys and fangirls, who create a kind of echo chamber effect that merely amplifies the prevailing belief system of the site, while excluding (either subtly or overtly) other points of view. That is one reason I have been so insistent on finding ways to allow for argument within a community of support -- argument keeps us honest.
____
*I'm being ironic, of course, but someone did actually use those words to describe me recently.
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2010, at 8:07:06
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2010, at 1:42:37
> > If someone routinely forgets to "thank" my posts while "thanking" others, I certainly note it and recognize I am unhelpful to that poster and think twice about responding to them.
>
> May I ask if you feel hurt by that?You may ask anything. And sometimes I'll answer. :)
I suppose I do feel hurt. How hurt might depend on context. Or maybe I always feel hurt, and just deny feelings of hurt and defend against them sometimes more than others. May I ask why you ask?
> > Lots of things are a fact of life. Lots of things are true. I thought it had long since been decided on Babble that just because something was true, pointing it out was not necessarily either civil or kind.
>
> I agree, pointing out that someone hasn't been thanked many times might be considered uncivil.Isn't reporting their rankings of "helpfulness" pointing it out? I consider it to be pointing it out. And by the administration of the site at that. If you were to point that out to me by publishing my poor rankings, it would feel to me that you were pointing out that you would prefer more helpful people to post here and I ought to leave.
> How might parents hurt a child with a reward system?
Are you a huge fan of behavior modification? Hmmmm.... Of course parents can hurt a child with a reward system. We aren't dogs to respond to a clicker system.
"You aren't on your way to winning a gold star today" can be hurtful. "Johnny has ten gold stars this month and you only have one" can be hurtful. The latter is what you are proposing, in effect.
Gold stars can be withheld or granted based more on the feelings of the granter than the behavior of the grantee. The withholding of gold stars can be used as coercion to a sensitive child. Some children might grow to believe that they just aren't capable of gold stars. That starless row on the class chart can become an indicator of the future, causing the child to give up or even to make d*mn sure they in no way qualify for a star so that they won't be disappointed. A child can believe they are being helpful, and be simply devastated at the end of they day when they didn't receive a gold star. Standards by other posters are unlikely to be as clearly outlined as a proper behavior modification program should be (even if I were a firm believer in behavior modification programs). Peers might be more likely to reward those whom they like, those who are popular, those they perceive as powerful (if they wish to curry favor or appease, for example). Being popular and being helpful are not synonymous. I'm not even suggesting any maliciousness of motive. It's a fairly normal thing to reward our friends or people who agree with us.
It depends on the child, I suppose. But I would never have used a rigid reward system like this for my child. I'm not a behaviorist. I don't believe humans are so simple. Rewards flow naturally from the choices you make. Natural consequences. Not gold stars. And of course, the major way I taught my son to understand what he ought and oughtn't do in life is by explaining what the rules are why the rules are in place. The behavior comes from him, and has to be motivated by his own beliefs, not by an arbitrary reward system that will end at some point. Should he only be helpful to win gold stars? Or should he realize what being helpful can mean to others and be motivated by his compassion for others? I think it would have harmed him a bit to teach him to be good for rewards.
Of course, this begs the real question. You have always maintained that answering itself is helpful. You have encouraged people to answer posts by newcomers, or posts that have not received responses. Are you now saying that you don't consider the act of caring enough to answer supportively helpful enough for this site?
Posted by violette on July 27, 2010, at 10:27:18
In reply to Re: Rewards » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2010, at 8:07:06
Behavioral modification is manipulative.
Posted by fayeroe on July 27, 2010, at 11:01:15
In reply to Re: Rewards, posted by Dr. Bob on July 27, 2010, at 1:42:37
> > I've been thinking more about the point system, and although I still feel very uncomfortable about it, I am beginning to see that there might be some value in it.
> >
> > The kind of post that is typical of the psychology board ... is usually about feelings, often quite extreme feelings, where the poster is looking for understanding, empathy and support. To rate this is, to my mind, not possible through the fixed, yes/no questions that would be required for a points system.
> >
> > I would like to suggest that the points system, if it is to be implemented, should be tried out first on the medication board, and only at a later stage, with much consultation with the users, on the psychology board.
> >
> > vwoolf
>
> Thanks for being willing to consider the potential benefits.
>
> If a poster is looking for understanding, empathy, and support, they could simply reward those who respond with understanding, empathy, and support:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955117.html
>
> That's a good point, thanks, lots of times it's better to roll out changes in stages.
>
> --
>
> > If someone routinely forgets to "thank" my posts while "thanking" others, I certainly note it and recognize I am unhelpful to that poster and think twice about responding to them.
>
> May I ask if you feel hurt by that?
>
> > Lots of things are a fact of life. Lots of things are true. I thought it had long since been decided on Babble that just because something was true, pointing it out was not necessarily either civil or kind.
>
> I agree, pointing out that someone hasn't been thanked many times might be considered uncivil.
>
> > Could you tell me how you'd feel if a poster rated everyone else on a thread helpful except you? If your ranking was lower than that of the average poster? Pretend you're one of the less confident and assured people when answering.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> I might post that I feel unappreciated and unhelpful. Someone else might post what they like about me. I might feel appreciated and reward them for being helpful to me. And then I might feel helpful to them.
>
> --
>
> > it would do the weeding out of less "helpful" responders that Dr. Bob seems to desire
> >
> > Dinah
>
> > > I sense a lot of anxiety
> >
> > I don't sense any anxiety in our posts. I think that frustration is a more accurate description.
>
> For example, I sense anxiety about being hurt and being weeded out. I certainly do sense frustration, too!
>
> > I feel that hurting someone with a "reward/points" system would be awful. There are posters here who lived through something like that when they were in their parent's home and this could produce feelings that they have worked hard to overcome.
> >
> > fayeroe
>
> How might parents hurt a child with a reward system?
>
> BobBob, I babble mailed you about rewards hurting children. I won't post the specifics regarding your question here on the board. I hope you read it because it is a classic example of how parents can hurt their children by "handing out gold stars".
Posted by fayeroe on July 27, 2010, at 11:18:44
In reply to Re: Rewards...Bob, I babblemailed you » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on July 27, 2010, at 11:01:15
> > > I've been thinking more about the point system, and although I still feel very uncomfortable about it, I am beginning to see that there might be some value in it.
> > >
> > > The kind of post that is typical of the psychology board ... is usually about feelings, often quite extreme feelings, where the poster is looking for understanding, empathy and support. To rate this is, to my mind, not possible through the fixed, yes/no questions that would be required for a points system.
> > >
> > > I would like to suggest that the points system, if it is to be implemented, should be tried out first on the medication board, and only at a later stage, with much consultation with the users, on the psychology board.
> > >
> > > vwoolf
> >
> > Thanks for being willing to consider the potential benefits.
> >
> > If a poster is looking for understanding, empathy, and support, they could simply reward those who respond with understanding, empathy, and support:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955117.html
> >
> > That's a good point, thanks, lots of times it's better to roll out changes in stages.
> >
> > --
> >
> > > If someone routinely forgets to "thank" my posts while "thanking" others, I certainly note it and recognize I am unhelpful to that poster and think twice about responding to them.
> >
> > May I ask if you feel hurt by that?
> >
> > > Lots of things are a fact of life. Lots of things are true. I thought it had long since been decided on Babble that just because something was true, pointing it out was not necessarily either civil or kind.
> >
> > I agree, pointing out that someone hasn't been thanked many times might be considered uncivil.
> >
> > > Could you tell me how you'd feel if a poster rated everyone else on a thread helpful except you? If your ranking was lower than that of the average poster? Pretend you're one of the less confident and assured people when answering.
> > >
> > > Dinah
> >
> > I might post that I feel unappreciated and unhelpful. Someone else might post what they like about me. I might feel appreciated and reward them for being helpful to me. And then I might feel helpful to them.
> >
> > --
> >
> > > it would do the weeding out of less "helpful" responders that Dr. Bob seems to desire
> > >
> > > Dinah
> >
> > > > I sense a lot of anxiety
> > >
> > > I don't sense any anxiety in our posts. I think that frustration is a more accurate description.
> >
> > For example, I sense anxiety about being hurt and being weeded out. I certainly do sense frustration, too!
> >
> > > I feel that hurting someone with a "reward/points" system would be awful. There are posters here who lived through something like that when they were in their parent's home and this could produce feelings that they have worked hard to overcome.
> > >
> > > fayeroe
> >
> > How might parents hurt a child with a reward system?
> >
> > Bob
>
> Bob, I babble mailed you about rewards hurting children. I won't post the specifics regarding your question here on the board. I hope you read it because it is a classic example of how parents can hurt their children by "handing out gold stars".
>
>So I remembered that you could use anything I wrote and decided to not babble mail you with the specifics regarding parents hurting children with a rewards system.
I saw two children who were deeply hurt by their parents as they grew up. One was rewarded and the other child was mostly ignored. They did not become close until they were grown men. (They are brothers.)
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 31, 2010, at 11:48:58
In reply to Re: Changed my mind. No babble mail to you, posted by fayeroe on July 27, 2010, at 11:18:44
> Even someone as "wise and compassionate" as me* was often tempted to rate down people I disagreed with politically, for example. Sometimes, the rating system itself becomes a kind of meta-subject in a thread, to the detriment of the actual subject. But my main concern would be that some people would be better at working the system than others, resulting in an in group & an out group & surely that would be a major problem for a community like Psychobabble, which presents itself as inclusive and supportive. There are lots of examples around the internet of sites dominated by fanboys and fangirls, who create a kind of echo chamber effect that merely amplifies the prevailing belief system of the site, while excluding (either subtly or overtly) other points of view.
>
> chujoeI seem to need to continue to repeat that there wouldn't be a "rate down" option:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955563.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955953.htmlThat's a good point, posts about points, like posts about administrative issues, might need to be redirected.
I wonder if the point of view that a point system is a bad idea might be an example of a prevailing belief system amplified by an echo chamber effect. :-)
I'm not sure I'd consider it a problem if someone "worked the system" by helping lots of other posters.
And I don't know if there would be a single out-group. Poster X might not award points to poster Y, but poster Z might.
> > > If someone routinely forgets to "thank" my posts while "thanking" others, I certainly note it and recognize I am unhelpful to that poster and think twice about responding to them.
> >
> > May I ask if you feel hurt by that?
>
> I suppose I do feel hurt. How hurt might depend on context. Or maybe I always feel hurt, and just deny feelings of hurt and defend against them sometimes more than others. May I ask why you ask?Because I thought that if you accepted that you couldn't help everyone, then you might not feel too hurt.
> > I agree, pointing out that someone hasn't been thanked many times might be considered uncivil.
>
> Isn't reporting their rankings of "helpfulness" pointing it out? I consider it to be pointing it out.I don't. IMO, making information available is different than calling attention to it. But that's another good point, it might be important not to make the information too prominent. It wouldn't need to be public which posts were and weren't rewarded with points. And point totals wouldn't need to be in every signature. :-)
> "You aren't on your way to winning a gold star today" can be hurtful. "Johnny has ten gold stars this month and you only have one" can be hurtful.
I agree, those I'd consider calling attention to that information.
> it would feel to me that you were pointing out that you would prefer more helpful people to post here and I ought to leave.
>
> Gold stars can be withheld or granted based more on the feelings of the granter than the behavior of the grantee. The withholding of gold stars can be used as coercion to a sensitive child. Some children might grow to believe that they just aren't capable of gold stars. ... A child can believe they are being helpful, and be simply devastated at the end of they day when they didn't receive a gold star. Standards by other posters are unlikely to be as clearly outlined as a proper behavior modification program should be ... Peers might be more likely to reward those whom they like, those who are popular, those they perceive as powerful (if they wish to curry favor or appease, for example). Being popular and being helpful are not synonymous. I'm not even suggesting any maliciousness of motive. It's a fairly normal thing to reward our friends or people who agree with us.
>
> Are you now saying that you don't consider the act of caring enough to answer supportively helpful enough for this site?
>
> DinahAgain, the idea would be to help people feel good:
> > Getting points would just be a bonus reward, so you feel good about helping others out and you have tangible proof of your helpfulness. You can look at all the points you have and think, wow, I've helped a lot of people! Then you feel good about yourself.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/954811.html
I haven't meant to imply that posters aren't helpful enough or anyone ought to leave. I think the posters here are great! But that's yet another good point, "appreciated" might be better than "helpful". Someone might not appreciate being disagreed with, but hearing a different perspective might actually end up being more helpful.
I understand that, whatever the terminology, some posters might feel bad about their point total. For example, it could trigger old feelings of being unpopular. But some people feel bad about their weight, and the answer isn't not to have scales.
> > If people felt bad about not having many points, maybe others could help them with their answers, or not to feel so bad about it?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/953078.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/956078.htmlThis might also lead to discussion of feeling rejected, unpopular, and envious here. Those are sensitive topics, but talking about them might be productive.
--
> So I remembered that you could use anything I wrote and decided to not babble mail you
>
> fayeroeThat's just posts, not private communications.
Bob
Posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2010, at 13:57:53
In reply to Re: Appreciation, posted by Dr. Bob on July 31, 2010, at 11:48:58
>It wouldn't need to be public which posts were and weren't rewarded with points.
It wouldn't"need" to be? What does that mean? Who decides? You? Each poster?
Confused, as usual. If this is so, then why is there even a discussion here? If points weren't public, how would anyone know anything about them enough to feel hurt or good. etc? And if "private" (whatever that means) the why do it at all?
I don't get it.
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2010, at 17:09:45
In reply to Re: Appreciation, posted by Dr. Bob on July 31, 2010, at 11:48:58
> Because I thought that if you accepted that you couldn't help everyone, then you might not feel too hurt.
How hurt I would be would depend on how surprised I was at the poster's choices, not on how I feel about myself. If it was someone I know doesn't care overmuch for me, I'd shrug my shoulders and tell myself that at least I tried to be supportive. If it was a surprise, it would hurt a lot more.
Of course I accept that I can't help everyone. What would hurt is if someone pointed out that I wasn't helpful (by rating others helpful and excluding me) when I tried to be helpful. Maybe it's the way my mama raised me. I was taught that one showed appreciation to everyone who tried to be helpful. If I failed to do so, I'd have had to have a long discussion with her about empathy before she let me out in public again.
I dunno. Maybe other people's mamas didn't stress this point so other people would feel differently about it. Perhaps your mama taught you different mores, so you don't see it as an issue to show appreciation to only some of the people who care enough to take time out of their days to try to be helpful to you.
What did your mother teach you about showing appreciation to some but not others of the people who give you a gift, depending on whether or not the gift was to your taste? If she didn't teach you that value, what value did she teach in its place? I'd like to understand how different people come to have different standards, in the interests of mutual understanding and better communications.
Posted by BayLeaf on July 31, 2010, at 22:50:22
In reply to Re: Appreciation, posted by Dr. Bob on July 31, 2010, at 11:48:58
This is too confusing.
Instead of describing what this *isn't* going to to by replying to posts, how about you tell us about the list of requirements that will go into the design?
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2010, at 2:43:33
In reply to Re: Appreciation » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derHeart on July 31, 2010, at 13:57:53
> >It wouldn't need to be public which posts were and weren't rewarded with points.
>
> It wouldn't"need" to be? What does that mean? Who decides? You? Each poster?
>
> Confused, as usual. If this is so, then why is there even a discussion here? If points weren't public, how would anyone know anything about them enough to feel hurt or good. etc? And if "private" (whatever that means) the why do it at all?
>
> I don't get it.It could be completely private, and posters could still feel good about having been appreciated by others:
> > Getting points would just be a bonus reward, so you feel good about helping others out and you have tangible proof of your helpfulness. You can look at all the points you have and think, wow, I've helped a lot of people! Then you feel good about yourself.
But I think there's something to be said for it not being completely private. If people can see which posts a poster appreciates, that could help them help that poster in the future. And if they can see the point totals of other posters, that would give them a context for their own point total.
The more settings there are, the more complicated it would be, but one way to do it would be to give each poster these options:
1. giving points
a. give points and show which posts receive them
b. give points, but don't show which posts receive them
c. don't give points2. receiving points
a. receive points and show posts which receive them
b. receive points, but don't show which posts receive them
c. don't receive points3. showing total
a. show total
b. show total only if in top 10
c. don't show point totalThe initial poster would have to give (1a or 1b) and the appreciated poster would have to receive (2a or 2b) for points to be awarded at all.
The initial poster would have to give and show (1a) and the appreciated poster would have to receive and show (2a) for it to show which post the initial poster appreciated.
Maybe a separate page would show the posters who agreed to be shown. 3b (only the top 10) could be the default. Even if a poster's point total weren't shown, they would still be able to find out for themselves where they stood relative to others.
How does that sound?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on August 1, 2010, at 8:50:30
In reply to Re: Appreciation, posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2010, at 2:43:33
> But I think there's something to be said for it not being completely private. If people can see which posts a poster appreciates, that could help them help that poster in the future. And if they can see the point totals of other posters, that would give them a context for their own point total.
Those are both things that I object to, so while something can certainly be said *of* if, I'm not sure if I see anything to say *for* it.
I'm sorry you chose not to respond to my post. I hope you didn't see it as an insult. I saw it more as an effort to feel more positively about you by understanding you better. An experiment in sociology or anthropology or something. Not unlike what you do with us. And while I know that you aren't here for support and education, but for Administration, if those questions are part of Administration on one side, aren't they part of Administration on both?
I've seen you twice in person. Both times it struck me that you were both polite and very... I can't think of the word. You were interested in other people and their points of view. You were careful to phrase yourself so as to be respectful of them. You were even adept at responding to me on occasion in such a way that I understood that I had been less than tactful, without ever making me feel bad about being less than tactful. Yes, you were very polite, tactful, interested in others, and very very civil.
Which is why I really really *really* don't understand why you don't understand what I'm saying here.
Unless your proposed changes, which I confess are still a bit too complicated for me to grasp, are intended to indicate that you *do* understand how this could be hurtful to posters?
I like the opt out, of course.
But what I'd really like is for you never to show on any given thread which people were thanked. On the one hand, I'd like the opportunity to post *my* appreciation to anyone who wasn't appreciated by the originating poster (as long as they were civil of course). On the other hand, it might cause a lot of bad feelings among posters, which would decrease the overall civility on board. And it might give me information I'd just as well not know about the originating poster.
Especially if I don't understand what values other people were taught on the topic of appreciation, if they weren't the ones taught by my mother.
Posted by Dinah on August 1, 2010, at 9:04:19
In reply to Re: Appreciation, posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2010, at 2:43:33
Overall if you want to award points, I think I'd rather see them awarded purely for number of posts. At least there's no judgment involved in that.
And to be honest, if this were done, I'd probably opt for seeing as much information as I could. Yes, it might lead to hurt feelings for me, or angry feelings on my part towards the original poster, on my behalf or the behalf of others. But if the information is going to be there for the world to see, I just as well know the worst or best myself. Yes, it might change my feelings about other posters. But oddly enough, not in the way you seem to wish. Although I'm guessing you have some positive spin on how it can be helpful to know whether original posters share my values or have different ones altogether on a topic that is near and dear to my heart. You always seem to have positive spin on the most surprising (to me of course) things.
Posted by chujoe on August 1, 2010, at 9:17:49
In reply to Re: Appreciation, posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2010, at 2:43:33
>>The more settings there are, the more complicated it would be, but one way to do it would be to give each poster these options:
1. giving points
a. give points and show which posts receive them
b. give points, but don't show which posts receive them
c. don't give points2. receiving points
a. receive points and show posts which receive them
b. receive points, but don't show which posts receive them
c. don't receive points3. showing total
a. show total
b. show total only if in top 10
c. don't show point totalThe initial poster would have to give (1a or 1b) and the appreciated poster would have to receive (2a or 2b) for points to be awarded at all.
The initial poster would have to give and show (1a) and the appreciated poster would have to receive and show (2a) for it to show which post the initial poster appreciated.
Maybe a separate page would show the posters who agreed to be shown. 3b (only the top 10) could be the default. Even if a poster's point total weren't shown, they would still be able to find out for themselves where they stood relative to others.
How does that sound?<<
It sounds like you have been reading Kafka. I mean, invisible points? It's a stroke of genius worthy of the master!
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2010, at 1:33:18
In reply to Re: Appreciation, posted by chujoe on August 1, 2010, at 9:17:49
> your proposed changes ... are still a bit too complicated for me to grasp
>
> I like the opt out, of course.
>
> But what I'd really like is for you never to show on any given thread which people were thanked.With those changes, whether that were shown wouldn't be up to me.
> Overall if you want to award points, I think I'd rather see them awarded purely for number of posts. At least there's no judgment involved in that.
Thank-yous can mean more when they involve judgment. :-)
> I'm guessing you have some positive spin on how it can be helpful to know whether original posters share my values or have different ones altogether on a topic that is near and dear to my heart.
>
> DinahWould you rather not know their values?
--
> It sounds like you have been reading Kafka. I mean, invisible points? It's a stroke of genius worthy of the master!
>
> chujoeThink of it like your money in the bank. It's "invisible" to others, but not to you.
Bob
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