![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 44 to 68 of 70. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 11:21:17
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dinah on September 14, 2006, at 14:35:56
> the deputies ... work hard without a cent and I feel this is not fair to them.
>
> PhillipaI'm not sure I'd call it unfair to work hard without a cent, that's what volunteering means, OTOH, I've thought about trying to make some cents for them, too...
> > I'm not sick of anyone.
>
> how about moderating in general?
>
> you seem to be doing all you can to foster a 'deputy' 'regular poster' divide.
>
> alexandra_kI'm not sick of moderating in general, either. And I understand that might be a genuine concern -- and isn't necessarily just a transference response. :-)
I'm not trying to foster a deputy vs regular poster divide, but IMO there is in fact a difference, and I don't want to deny that, either.
> > there may be less splitting
>
> Or there'll be the same splitting, but more people on one side of the split. People who came here for support and to be part of something. Not to be separate.
>
> I suggest a replacement benevolent monarch with similar ideas of civility as your own.
>
> Sustainability is the real key, Dr. Bob. Sustainability.
>
> DinahI know it hurts to be attacked, especially when trying to help. I'm sorry that happens, and I appreciate your dedication to this community.
Hmm, maybe the block "multiplier" should be increased for incivility towards deputies?
> Middle way? Dr. Bob, do you want a buddhist monk to be the new adminsitrator? And if there's problems with sustainablity, we deserve to know. It's important to me. I wouldn't mind volunteering to make this project more sustainable, but I woouldn't want to become involved in a way that would compromise my status as post-er and crazy person first and foremost. I don't know how such a thing is possible, or what is needed. Dr. Bob, you shouldn't be shy to ask for help if/when you need it.
>
> llrrrpp> The posters did not want to "tattle" on somebody
>
> That's why it's important to have an administrator who is seen as having a different status as a poster. As a poster, I often do not want to suggest that another poster is out of line. I often retreat from conflict. I have remorse about turning in a fellow poster, because they come here in the spirit of giving or receiving support. ... there is a terrible danger that something really hurtful may go on for a while and involve many people before it's calmed down and dealt with by someone with authority.
>
> llrrrpp> I think Dr. Bob's plan is to rely more on poster reporting, which would mean tattling to some people
>
> DinahA Buddhist monk might make a good benevolent monarch. I'd be interested if any of you know one who's available, but that's not the direction I have in mind right now.
Sustainability is a real issue. For one thing, I'm not going to be around forever. I'd like it if Babble were more self-sufficient, so help along those lines would be great. Volunteers are a key ingredient, but as we've been discussing, being a deputy does entail compromise. Those who aren't deputies can help by supporting and helping out those who are. And of course it keeps the community strong just to keep supporting other posters, too.
One way to help out me and the deputies is in fact to notify us of potential problems. Which I realize may feel like tattling, and could in fact be seen as tattling, and as counter our primary mission of support. So some posters won't feel comfortable doing that. I don't think "status" necessarily makes it easier, the deputies don't relish conflict, either. But I think llrrrpp's example was a good one. We weren't aware of the situation, and other Babblers didn't feel comfortable notifying us, but she felt it was important and took the initiative, and a deputy handled it.
Bob
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 12:27:39
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 11:21:17
Okay Dr. Bob,
I guess I am kind of dumb. Rather than think about "tattling" as anti-supportive of a possibly un-civil babble-poster, I should think of "notification" as being supportive of the volunteer deputies.This re-framing helps me to justify being part of the community.
However, it would be much appreciated if the rules and such were spelled out clear as day on a page somewhere. I feel insecure to report something (even if it's a private babble-mail to a deputy) if I don't know what the latest rules are.
I know it's one of the big projects you've been procrastinating, Dr. Bob. It can't be as much fun as tinkering with Babble-Chat. But having clear rules (where they can be made clear) is essential to your mission.
Simple things like
Don't post more than three times in a row, unless you are responding to other's posts.
That particular rule is the subject of so much uncertainty that I don't even know what the latest update is.
Thanks again, and thanks for hearing me. I think you did a good job of addressing my concerns.
-ll
Posted by MidnightBlue on September 15, 2006, at 13:22:58
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 11:21:17
Dr. Bob, you said:
> One way to help out me and the deputies is in fact to notify us of potential problems. Which I realize may feel like tattling, and could in fact be seen as tattling, and as counter our primary mission of support. So some posters won't feel comfortable doing that.BUT if you "tattle" on someone three times and you or the other deputies don't consider what that person did is a problem, then YOU are in trouble! Seems like a no win thing to me.
MidnightBlue (who would probably slink away into a dark corner rather than "tattle" and be wrong )
Posted by Toph on September 15, 2006, at 16:05:22
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2006, at 10:44:25
> Regarding the community as a whole, if there's more sharing of power, there may be less splitting (seeing administrators as bad and posters as good)...
>As a way of avoiding splitting as you defined it, why not indeed "split" the administrators from their posting personas? The administrators could have different deputy names from their posting names. Perhaps this seems disingenuous and might result in people figuring out the deputy from their posting syles, but if successful in their disguise, deputies might retain their sense of freedom as a poster unsplit and unresented.
Just a thought.Toph
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:12:03
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on September 15, 2006, at 16:05:22
> > Regarding the community as a whole, if there's more sharing of power, there may be less splitting (seeing administrators as bad and posters as good)...
> >
>
> As a way of avoiding splitting as you defined it, why not indeed "split" the administrators from their posting personas? The administrators could have different deputy names from their posting names. Perhaps this seems disingenuous and might result in people figuring out the deputy from their posting syles, but if successful in their disguise, deputies might retain their sense of freedom as a poster unsplit and unresented.
> Just a thought.
>
> TophHi Toph,
i like this idea. it's good. (that was my serious comment)does this mean that we will no longer have any !Snort!-ing deputies? (that was my silly comment)
-ll
Posted by Toph on September 15, 2006, at 16:24:03
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on September 15, 2006, at 16:05:22
Posted by zazenducky on September 15, 2006, at 16:43:05
In reply to Further, all deputies could use the handle, 'Anon' (nm), posted by Toph on September 15, 2006, at 16:24:03
That's a good idea. And use standard language instead of the little variations to different posters.
I think it would be nice to have volunteer peacemakers people could talk to if they didn't agree with the sanction rather than make it all so punitive and us against them. Maybe they could also mediate with the deputies if necessary, but their primary function would be off the board support and education for the banned person.
Posted by zazenducky on September 15, 2006, at 17:00:03
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 11:21:17
>
> >
> Sustainability is a real issue. For one thing, I'm not going to be around forever.Bob do you have a date in mind? Are you ill?
Have you made any arrangements for the technical aspects of keeping this going?
Have you thought of hiring an administrator? How many hours per week would it take for someone to replace you if the deputies kept voluteering?
Can you sell the board to a drug co or hospital or something? Would you really be willing to give up control?
Can you get a grant?
Are you willing to give up any power at all to keep it going? Would you be willing for the deputies to rewrite the rules or reorganize the blocking system? Would you trust them to implement change without consulting you? Would you trust then to select the next group of deputies and train them without your input?
Bob this does not mean I don't like you or think you are a good person but have you considered obtaining professional help to help you through this time of transition and relinquishment?
Your friend
zazenducky
I'd like it if Babble were more self-sufficient, so help along those lines would be great. Volunteers are a key ingredient, but as we've been discussing, being a deputy does entail compromise. Those who aren't deputies can help by supporting and helping out those who are. And of course it keeps the community strong just to keep supporting other posters, too.
>
> One way to help out me and the deputies is in fact to notify us of potential problems. Which I realize may feel like tattling, and could in fact be seen as tattling, and as counter our primary mission of support. So some posters won't feel comfortable doing that. I don't think "status" necessarily makes it easier, the deputies don't relish conflict, either. But I think llrrrpp's example was a good one. We weren't aware of the situation, and other Babblers didn't feel comfortable notifying us, but she felt it was important and took the initiative, and a deputy handled it.
>
> Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on September 15, 2006, at 17:22:56
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Toph, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:12:03
>
> does this mean that we will no longer have any !Snort!-ing deputies? (that was my silly comment)Just say no! Please don't snort the deputies. ;)
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 15, 2006, at 17:37:54
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 11:21:17
FWIW, I don't want cents, or added penalties for being uncivil to deputies. The same ones will be quite fine, thank you. :)
But, if we're having wishes, I would like you to be around forever.
Thank you.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 15, 2006, at 17:44:06
In reply to Further, all deputies could use the handle, 'Anon' (nm), posted by Toph on September 15, 2006, at 16:24:03
Hi Toph,
I think that's a good idea. Another is having a separate log in/"handle" for when we're posting in our role as deputies versus as community members. I also like using standard language, although I've heard from some who think of it as impersonal and a bit cold.It's hard to find any kind of happy medium, it seems. (Perhaps I should try looking at a psychic convention?) ;)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 15, 2006, at 18:03:01
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on September 15, 2006, at 17:37:54
> FWIW, I don't want cents, or added penalties for being uncivil to deputies. The same ones will be quite fine, thank you. :)
Good point. Ditto.
gg
>
Posted by Dinah on September 15, 2006, at 18:04:18
In reply to Re: Further, all deputies could use the handle, 'A » Toph, posted by gardenergirl on September 15, 2006, at 17:44:06
I rarely care for the standard language alone. Granted I use it at top and bottom, but somehow near middle it seems only polite to acknowledge that someone might be new to Babble, and not yet familiar with Babble rules, or that someone might be in the grip of a strong emotion, and that I recognize it, or whatever else may be in play.
I'm not sure I could give cookie cutter PBC's. Maybe blocks, because then there's been prior warning. But to me, PBC's aren't necessarily punitive in nature and the standard language doesn't necessarily reflect that. They're more reminders in heated moments, education opportunities for new or non-intuitive rules or for new posters, and in general more of a tap on the shoulder than a swat on the rear.
Thus, I don't think it would take a genius to see past anonymous handles.
Nor do I think, even if it was completely anonymous, that it would necessarily mean less anger at deputies, or less cumulative anger at any one deputy.
And, I suppose, I have some desire to feel that I am responsible for my own posts, even as deputy, and that I should claim ownership of them and take any righteous consequences for them.
Posted by AuntieMel on September 15, 2006, at 18:14:19
In reply to Re: Further, all deputies could use the handle, 'A, posted by Dinah on September 15, 2006, at 18:04:18
But maybe separate ID's.
It would be a gentle reminder to people when you are a fellow poster and when the badge is on.
As for cents or added measures "tritto"
Posted by Dinah on September 15, 2006, at 18:23:47
In reply to Re: Further, all deputies could use the handle, 'A, posted by AuntieMel on September 15, 2006, at 18:14:19
Yeah, I wouldn't mind having a Deputy Dinah posting name.
Except that it would bug the heck out of me to have to keep changing my name and password boxes. I'd always be afraid I'd forget and someone would get a naughty reply by Deputy Dinah instead of just Dinah.
Posted by henrietta on September 15, 2006, at 19:28:55
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Dr. Bob, posted by Toph on September 15, 2006, at 16:05:22
This proves it. I really am insane. I think there are too many disguises, too many half-truths, too many hidden agendas in the world already. Too many lies. I see I am insanely misguided.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 15, 2006, at 19:30:33
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Toph, posted by henrietta on September 15, 2006, at 19:28:55
Posted by henrietta on September 15, 2006, at 19:34:15
In reply to Re: Further, all deputies could use the handle, 'A, posted by Dinah on September 15, 2006, at 18:23:47
Another proof that I'm insane: I don't see deputies being banged up any more than anybody else around here, and they have recourse that others don't have. Yet another proof: the idea of PAYING poster /deputies ( if that's indeed what bob was suggesting)hasn't raised a single squeek? I'm certifiable!!!! I belong in a padded cell.
Posted by zazenducky on September 15, 2006, at 19:35:37
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Toph, posted by henrietta on September 15, 2006, at 19:28:55
it's not you
why do you think they call it PSYCHO babble?
oh yeah it's a bit of whimsy on bob's part
This proves it. I really am insane. I think there are too many disguises, too many half-truths, too many hidden agendas in the world already. Too many lies. I see I am insanely misguided.
>
Posted by henrietta on September 15, 2006, at 19:39:26
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by zazenducky on September 15, 2006, at 19:35:37
Thanks. I needed that. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Posted by Dinah on September 15, 2006, at 19:50:22
In reply to Re: all this, posted by henrietta on September 15, 2006, at 19:34:15
Posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2006, at 20:17:00
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 11:21:17
> I'm not sick of moderating in general, either. And I understand that might be a genuine concern -- and isn't necessarily just a transference response. :-)
How about my issues around the blocking system? genuine concern or transference response?
'Cause you seemed to deal with it as the latter.
> I'm not trying to foster a deputy vs regular poster divide, but IMO there is in fact a difference, and I don't want to deny that, either.What differences do you see?
Don't you see how certain things that you say *do* foster a deputy vs regular poster divide?
For example 'What do the deputies think'? Kind of implies you are going to listen to the deputies in virtue of who they are rather than considering the content that is said regardless of who says it.
There is a difference right there.
Are those the kinds of differences you are talking about?> Sustainability is a real issue.
Not just a transference response?
> as we've been discussing, being a deputy does entail compromise.
?
How so?
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 23:41:15
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2006, at 20:17:00
> This re-framing helps me to justify being part of the community.
Good! :-)
> However, it would be much appreciated if the rules and such were spelled out clear as day on a page somewhere.
>
> Simple things like
>
> Don't post more than three times in a row, unless you are responding to other's posts.
>
> -llI did add, as clearly as I could, a couple to FAQ recently, including the above at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#three
--
> BUT if you "tattle" on someone three times and you or the other deputies don't consider what that person did is a problem, then YOU are in trouble! Seems like a no win thing to me.
>
> MidnightBlueSorry, I don't think that would be considered uncivil, since we'd be notified directly rather than by posting. I think we just wouldn't respond to notifications (about that particular poster) after that.
Also, you (or whoever) could just not notify us any more about that particular poster...
--
> Bob do you have a date in mind? Are you ill?
>
> Have you made any arrangements for the technical aspects of keeping this going?
>
> Have you thought of hiring an administrator? How many hours per week would it take for someone to replace you if the deputies kept voluteering?
>
> Can you sell the board to a drug co or hospital or something? Would you really be willing to give up control?
>
> Can you get a grant?
>
> Are you willing to give up any power at all to keep it going? Would you be willing for the deputies to rewrite the rules or reorganize the blocking system? Would you trust them to implement change without consulting you? Would you trust then to select the next group of deputies and train them without your input?
>
> Bob this does not mean I don't like you or think you are a good person but have you considered obtaining professional help to help you through this time of transition and relinquishment?
>
> zazenduckyI don't have a date in mind, and as far as I know, I'm not ill.
I'm open to suggestions regarding the technical aspects, too.
I did mention hiring employees before. I don't know how many hours it would take. It would depend on who it was?
I'm willing to give up power under the right conditions. I think it would be better if there were continuity...
In theory, I could get a grant, but (1) that's easier said than done and (2) grants are time-limited, too.
Do you think I need professional help?
--
> How about my issues around the blocking system? genuine concern or transference response?
>
> 'What do the deputies think'? Kind of implies you are going to listen to the deputies in virtue of who they are rather than considering the content that is said regardless of who says it.
>
> alexandra_kThe blocking system is also a real issue. But that doesn't mean there aren't transference elements, too. :-)
Similarly for the deputy system. Being more democratic means I won't have all the power. At the same time, there's also the potential for dynamics involving acceptance, rejection, competition, envy, etc.
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2006, at 3:05:06
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds, posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2006, at 23:41:15
> In theory, I could get a grant, but (1) that's easier said than done and (2) grants are time-limited, too.
Yeah easier said than done is probably right. It could be fun though :-) Just before the time runs out you are supposed to get another one :-)
> Do you think I need professional help?lol.
> The blocking system is also a real issue. But that doesn't mean there aren't transference elements, too. :-)
So long as you don't under-estimate the significance of the real issue by writing it off as a transference response.
> Similarly for the deputy system.Indeed.
> Being more democratic means I won't have all the power. At the same time, there's also the potential for dynamics involving acceptance, rejection, competition, envy, etc.
Yeah. And I would say that you should be aware of your role in promoting those dynamics.
Especially if you are thinking that there isn't just a potentiality but an inevitability. If you see it as the latter then that could lead to your overlooking your role in promoting those dynamics.
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2006, at 10:14:56
In reply to Re: some merging of the two worlds » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on September 16, 2006, at 3:05:06
> > Being more democratic means I won't have all the power. At the same time, there's also the potential for dynamics involving acceptance, rejection, competition, envy, etc.
>
> Yeah. And I would say that you should be aware of your role in promoting those dynamics.
>
> Especially if you are thinking that there isn't just a potentiality but an inevitability. If you see it as the latter then that could lead to your overlooking your role in promoting those dynamics.Thanks for that, Alex. It might mean more coming from a nondeputy poster.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.