![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 73 to 97 of 291. Go back in thread:
Posted by AuntieMel on September 27, 2004, at 23:26:39
In reply to Re: ^^^^Addendum to above Dr. Bob, posted by AuntieMel on September 27, 2004, at 23:25:41
Posted by saw on September 28, 2004, at 4:03:06
In reply to Re: Above was only supposed to be two posts (nm), posted by AuntieMel on September 27, 2004, at 23:26:39
isolated to the Admin board. If a limit has to be placed, why not restrict it to the Admin board only? The other boards are behaving themselves and are not causing undue distress!
Reconsider? Please?
Posted by partlycloudy on September 28, 2004, at 4:52:39
In reply to Dr Bob, the problem seems to be, posted by saw on September 28, 2004, at 4:03:06
If someone is making repeated posts to the same person in a thread, can the person not ask, "please don't post further about this subject to me," or even, "can we take this discussion offline?" and discuss it via Babblemail?
I think if someone is asking for a "ruling" about a post, it would be more appropriate to email the moderator if it doesn't seem to be coming to a fruitful conclusion.
...as if we needed any more 2 cents added...
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 8:07:11
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts, posted by AuntieMel on September 27, 2004, at 23:23:14
> > I reviewed several boards here, and found a relatively few instances where 4 or more consecutive posts were submitted.
> If it really happens very few times then the rule would be applied rarely.
This is a good thing, right?
> But you say it is not personal. Lou happens to use this posting style. You say that the rule will be applied fairly (theory), but Lou is the only one that the new rule (practice).
How many people here have commited murder?
> In fact, you have already listed at least two exceptions to the rule - the replies to multiple posters (Susan's case) and the meltdown case (Dinah's case). What happened to 'rules is rules' and no exceptions??
Perhaps we should let things settle down a bit without forcing the moderator to take further actions that would only create more upset? Flexibility here would seem prudent.
> And you say don't take it personal? It seems to me that this rule is designed for one person.
I think it was designed for any person. Any person could have posted 100 consecutive posts. The proscription of murder was designed for any person, not one person.
> This ONLY came up because of Lou's
This might be a fact, but it is not Lou's fault that the system allowed for a posting behavior that could be disruptive. I am sure there are many people who did not find Lou's behavior thusfar to be disruptive. It is not about him. It is about a potential for abuse. I personally found that 10 or more consecutive posts submitted multiple instances on the same page was disruptive.
I didn't go so far as to develop a plan to address the lack of checks and balances in the posting policy regarding numbers of posts. However, I think Dr. Bob's solution is reasonable, effective, and easily implemented. Some threshold had to be chosen. 3 posts seems to work based upon the infrequency of 4 or more posts having thusfar been submitted.
- Scott
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2004, at 8:25:34
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2004, at 10:54:10
> What if one of my dear friends needs an archive again after you refuse to delete subject headings?
>
> What if I have many brilliant and insightful things to say all at once and want to give lots and lots of help?
>
> What if I need lots and lots of help?
>
> What if I mess up the Amazon link three times?
>
> What if I forget to count?
>
> I don't like this new rule!!! I think it descriminates against my posting style!I can't imagine that Dr. Bob would sanction anyone, in those circumstances. I had the distinct impression that the posting limit would apply in the context of pressure/harassment. Not one of your examples above would be unsupportive, except forgetting to count, if you were challenging a post made by another. Debate is fine. Harassment isn't. Limit three consecutive *unanswered* attempts. That's how I read this, anyway. If I'm wrong, I sure hope Bob clarifies.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2004, at 8:49:51
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts » Toph, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2004, at 11:41:51
> I think there are very bad consequences to making a general rule. If Dr. Bob is trying to solve a situation that frequently pops up, that applies to many posters, and that he has long wanted to address, that's fine.
I really think it is meant to clarify the pressure/harassment concept in the civility guidelines.
We really need Bob to make more meaningful and contextual comments about the applicability of any new rule. We're arguing about implications that he could have entirely precluded by more explicit descriptions of his intent.
Way back when, I got into it with a guy named maxx or something. He repeatedly suggested there were scientific references for a particular claim, and I asked him to provide them. He'd say they're all over the place. I'd say show me one. It was in the form of a dialogue. I got PBC'd for harassment (I also go blocked in the ensuing discussion, but after I checked the archives, I can see I started with a PBC with respect to the repeated questioning). I don't think I did anything wrong then, and I don't now.
The way Bob has worded his suggested new rule, I still don't see if I'm allowed to interact that way in a dialogue or not. I only renewed my request for information because he renewed his assertion there was ample information available. I did exceed three total requests, but I did not ever make three consecutive requests without any topical reply from the other party. I wanted to consider his evidence, not just his conclusions about the evidence. Those are very different things.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2004, at 8:55:18
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts, posted by AuntieMel on September 27, 2004, at 23:23:14
> This ONLY came up because of Lou's
This time. I've got a substantial block hanging over my head on the issue.
Lar
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 8:56:33
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts, posted by AuntieMel on September 27, 2004, at 23:23:14
Auntie Mel,
You wrote,[...let's apply some logic...].
I would like to read your perception of the situation further. The issue here, as I can see it, is that I write , stop, then write again. As it appears to me, so do others. Then (some) posters raise an objection to me writing, stopping, and writing again consecutivly more than 3 posts, but some posters have raised an objection to the restriction.
Now other posters here can reply at any time to my posts, which would stop the consecutivness of the posts. But what harm, in your logical opinion, could occur to those who object to me writing more than 3 posts, since it would be allowed to write 100 posts as long as someone posts in the thread before 4 posts are made consecutivly.
I ask you, you who have written,[...let's apply some logic...], could you offer an alternative to the situation that would accomodate the group of posters that want me to not be allowed to write more than 3 consecutive posts that is different than the rule that has been made ? Or, in accordance with your logic, do those posters need to be accomodated since they have the opportunity at any time to reply to any of my posts.
?
If you could share your logic with me here, I would appreciate it.
Lou
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 9:04:57
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2004, at 8:49:51
> I had the distinct impression that the posting limit would apply in the context of pressure/harassment.
I doubt that the posting quota will be limited to a particular context. Unfortunately, the system would still be vulnerable to abuse if this were the case.
> Way back when, I got into it with a guy named maxx or something. He repeatedly suggested there were scientific references for a particular claim, and I asked him to provide them. He'd say they're all over the place. I'd say show me one. It was in the form of a dialogue. I got PBC'd for harassment (I also go blocked in the ensuing discussion, but after I checked the archives, I can see I started with a PBC with respect to the repeated questioning). I don't think I did anything wrong then, and I don't now.
I remember the incident, but I don't remember the exact text of the reasons cited for sanction. Perhaps Dr. Bob's thoughts on the matter have evolved since. He may have made a mistake.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 9:10:40
In reply to Lou's response to Auntie Mel-1 of many » AuntieMel, posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 8:56:33
> Now other posters here can reply at any time to my posts, which would stop the consecutivness of the posts. But what harm, in your logical opinion, could occur to those who object to me writing more than 3 posts, since it would be allowed to write 100 posts as long as someone posts in the thread before 4 posts are made consecutivly.
The interruptions of consecutive posts should make for a wonderful discussion.
- Scott
Posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:13:45
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts, posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 8:07:11
Scott:
Please be known that I consider you to have valuable input to Babble. I just have a difference of opinion with you regarding this issue.
> > But you say it is not personal. Lou happens to use this posting style. You say that the rule will be applied fairly (theory), but Lou is the only one that the new rule (practice).
>
> How many people here have commited murder?
>I think this is a bad example. Murder does actually hurt another person. Multiple posts to admin hurt nobody.
Besides, I prefer to think of babble as NOT being a democracy (majority rules.) I prefer to think of it as a place where the rights of the minority are protected against the majority. Isn't that what we are all looking for???
> > In fact, you have already listed at least two exceptions to the rule - the replies to multiple posters (Susan's case) and the meltdown case (Dinah's case). What happened to 'rules is rules' and no exceptions??
>
> Perhaps we should let things settle down a bit without forcing the moderator to take further actions that would only create more upset? Flexibility here would seem prudent.But how much has flexibility been used in other cases? Every time I've stood up for someone, I've been told that 'rules is rules' and intent is too hard to determine to be able to take it into account. NO EXCEPTIONS, I've been told. Why is this different??
Question: what do you consider 'settle down' to be? Give the new rule time to gel, and those of us that have a problem with it shut our trap? Or chunk the rule completely?
> > And you say don't take it personal? It seems to me that this rule is designed for one person.
>
> I think it was designed for any person. Any person could have posted 100 consecutive posts. The proscription of murder was designed for any person, not one person.Yes, but only one person has actually done multiple posts with regularity. So, while theoretically it applies to all, in practice it only applies to one. And it's NotMurder!
>
> This might be a fact, but it is not Lou's fault that the system allowed for a posting behavior that could be disruptive. I am sure there are many people who did not find Lou's behavior thusfar to be disruptive. It is not about him. It is about a potential for abuse. I personally found that 10 or more consecutive posts submitted multiple instances on the same page was disruptive.Two separate thoughts here. If we worry about *potential* for abuse, then we have the *potential* of laying down so many rules that there is the *potential* for even smileys to be banned.
If someone *personally* finds it disruptive (especially on admin) then - As Dr. Bob says so often, there are other pages to visit.
It is my opinion that any rule that has built in flexibility (considering intent) and an arbitrary line drawn (3? why not 2? or 6?) is a bad rule. Why base the number on one archiving?
Mel
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 9:14:08
In reply to Lou's response to Auntie Mel-1 of many » AuntieMel, posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 8:56:33
Friends,
I have a different point of view about the 3 consecutive post rule.
I see about 5 posters that want this 3 consecutive post rule.
I also see others that think that the rule could have the potential to do harm.
I would like someone to give their explanation as to why , if I wanted to, that I would not be allowed to post Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I have a Dream" speech in consecutive posts here.
Lou
Posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:16:45
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2004, at 8:25:34
I've actually seen cases on admin where the original poster *did* add a request multiple times for a clarification - and Dr. Bob come in and say 'oops. I didn't see this one'
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 9:30:42
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Auntie Mel-1 of many, posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 9:10:40
SLS,
You wrote,[...would be an interesting discussion...].
I agree, for the 3 consecutive rule is dependant on the {consecutivness).
Now I think that if a poster starts off with alerting that there will be many posts to what they are about to post, that evryone that is reading the thread could have the opportunity to not read it , if they are of the group that objects to more than 3 consecutive posts. I have seen posters put the word (long) after their subject line to alert people to have the opportunity to not read if they are of the group that does not like long posts.
So would it not be acceptable here,IYO, for me to write in my subject line, if there is going to be more than 3 posts, (1 of many posts) and that could be a resolution?
Lou
Posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:35:50
In reply to Lou's response to Auntie Mel-1 of many » AuntieMel, posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 8:56:33
Good one, Lou. That's an idea I hadn't thought of. A scenario where you post three, someone complains about it, which frees you up to post three more! This is the first case I've seen where the complainer (by babble rules) gets the opposite effect than desired.
And you are right - as long as someone slips a post in for every three of yours you could keep posting 'till the cows come home.
Unfortunately I can't think of an alternative that would please everyone. But is it ever possible for everyone to be pleased? The best I can think of is for the main page to act the same way as the ones you get when reading a post on a long thread: show the first few and the last few and hide the rest. Like:
# Support Toph 9/23/04
...
# Re: Support » Glydin Toph 9/23/04
# Re: Support Dr. Bob 9/24/04For the life of me I can't see what is disturbing about this in the first place, except for the possibility that boards might archive quicker. Everyone has a choice not to read if they don't want to.
Posted by Lou PIlder on September 28, 2004, at 9:41:44
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Auntie Mel-1 of many » Lou Pilder, posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:35:50
Aunti Mel,
You wrote, [ ...I can't see why this is desturbing in the first place,...except that the archive could occur sooner...].
I have talked to a computer expert about this. How quicker was the question. His answere was, [...not significant...], and the board would archive at some point anyway and the main body of the thread could still be there.
Lou
Posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:42:02
In reply to Lou's response to thos ethat want the 3 post rule » Lou Pilder, posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 9:14:08
Actually, I might even have a problem with that, though I still wouldn't want it banned.
The objection is: it would be taking up space for no good reason. The speech is written and could easily be put in one.
This is MUCH different than reminders to someone, or adding follow-ups as new thoughts come to mind.
Posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:53:41
In reply to Re: limit of 3 consecutive posts » AuntieMel, posted by Larry Hoover on September 28, 2004, at 8:55:18
Right Lar. I remember that, and I remember I was on your side then, too. You always have good stuff to contribute, and I thought that the block was way, way, way too long - and that the guy *was* saying things without any studies to back him up.
But there are some major differences:
1) This new rule wouldn't have applied to you then, as your posts weren't consecutive.
<NOTE: Plese Dr. Bob - I'm stating what I remember, not accusing wrongdoing>
2) You were addressing a 'fellow' poster, not admin. This rule doesn't allow for that distinction.3) You were asking for the same bits of information, where in this case there were additional bits of information added each time.
So, while I disagreed about your block, I don't see that making the rules even more restrictive is the answer.
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 9:56:49
In reply to Re: Lou's response to thos ethat want the 3 post r » Lou Pilder, posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:42:02
AM,
You wrote,[...the objection is: it would be taking up space for {no good reason}...].
I belive that there could be a good reason for posting a speech in consecutive posts.
One, each particular point being made by the speaker could be in one post which IMO could further discussion by giving the readers an opportunity to focus on one aspect of the speech.
Lou
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 10:09:04
In reply to Re: Interesting points - but..... » SLS, posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 9:13:45
Hi Mel.
> Please be known that I consider you to have valuable input to Babble. I just have a difference of opinion with you regarding this issue.
I'm glad there are differences of opinion. It makes life more interesting, and usually makes things better - at least theoretically. :-)
> > How many people here have commited murder?
> I think this is a bad example.I would have chosen tax-evasion, but I feared it would have included too many people to make my point.
> Murder does actually hurt another person. Multiple posts to admin hurt nobody.
I disagree. I find it disruptive to the flow of discourse and makes it much harder for me to read about issues that are important to me. I feel that unlimited consecutive posting deprives others of screen space and causes the board to turn over more frequently than I can follow. Anyone who *does* want to hurt the community could do so under this circumstance.
> Besides, I prefer to think of babble as NOT being a democracy (majority rules.)
Me too.
> I prefer to think of it as a place where the rights of the minority are protected against the majority.
I prefer to think of it as a place where the protections offered to the one are for the equal protection of all.
> But how much has flexibility been used in other cases? Every time I've stood up for someone, I've been told that 'rules is rules' and intent is too hard to determine to be able to take it into account. NO EXCEPTIONS, I've been told. Why is this different??
It may not be. I don't know what are the intentions of the moderator. I think any new policy or regulation is to suffer growing pains - perhaps even repeal.
> Question: what do you consider 'settle down' to be? Give the new rule time to gel, and those of us that have a problem with it shut our trap?
:-)
(Just kidding)
> Or chunk the rule completely?
I don't know what "chunk" means. Repeal?
> Yes, but only one person has actually done multiple posts with regularity.
This has been to our good fortune, I think.
> So, while theoretically it applies to all, in practice it only applies to one.
I disagree. In reality, it applies to all.
> And it's NotMurder!
OK! OK! Tax-evasion!!!
> > This might be a fact, but it is not Lou's fault that the system allowed for a posting behavior that could be disruptive. I am sure there are many people who did not find Lou's behavior thusfar to be disruptive. It is not about him. It is about a potential for abuse. I personally found that 10 or more consecutive posts submitted multiple instances on the same page was disruptive.
> Two separate thoughts here. If we worry about *potential* for abuse, then we have the *potential* of laying down so many rules that there is the *potential* for even smileys to be banned.:-)
I hope not. I would sooner leave the board myself under such a regulation.
> If someone *personally* finds it disruptive (especially on admin) then - As Dr. Bob says so often, there are other pages to visit.
And other sites.
I don't want to have to leave this one. Unlimited consecutive posting could easily cause this to happen. I wouldn't want to be here if there were continual filibusters and endless pontificating. This is personal - to me. I also believe that posting limits are in the best interests of the community as a whole. It's nice when the two coincide.
> It is my opinion that any rule that has built in flexibility (considering intent) and an arbitrary line drawn (3? why not 2? or 6?) is a bad rule. Why base the number on one archiving?
I don't know what Dr. Bob's criteria were for setting 3 as the threshold. I only audited the boards to quell Dinah's fears that she would not be able to interact here because she couldn't adhere to the number 3. I was happy to discover that among all the boards during an entire archiving period, she only felt the need to post more than 3 times in only one instance.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 10:34:23
In reply to Lou's response to SLS » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 9:30:42
Hi Lou.
I'm glad that we are not enemies.
> Now I think that if a poster starts off with alerting that there will be many posts to what they are about to post, that evryone that is reading the thread could have the opportunity to not read it,
If a poster had the awareness and forethought that there would be sufficient material for multiple posts in advance, he could simply consolidate the material into a single post.
I have found on a few occasions several consecutive posts easier to read than one long post because of dramatic effect. Certainly, the number can't be infinite, or even 100. There is a numerical threshold beyond which consecutive posts becomes a hazard to the health of the community. Setting a limit necessarily requires an arbitrary number, but that is not to say that such a number can't be made optimal based upon existant factors in the environment. It seems that the existing posting habits of the community yield 3 consecutive posts as being the mode (beyond 2). 4 consecutive posts have been extremely infrequent.
For what it's worth to you, I found much of your argument regarding the writings of Jean Rousseau to have merit.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 10:37:39
In reply to Re: Interesting points - but....., posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 10:09:04
SLS,
You wrote,[...I feel that unlimited(consecutive) posting deprives others of screen space...].
I have been reading these posts here about this and find:
A.That IMO the issue is the (consecutiveness) of the posts and not the length of the total post if the individual posts were put as one post, for there is no limit in the rule to the {number of posts} as long as when 3 is reached, another post , for any reason I guess, by another poster is posted and then the poster writing the consecutive posts could go on with 3 more posts , etc..
B. Posters are not told that they can not post in the thread where the consecutive posts are.
C. There has been nothing brought to our attention that the amount of words or bytes in a post must be limited, for people here write long posts, which could have the potential to mean that it is not the volume of the post that is the focus of the rule, but the consecutivness of the posts.
When you wrote ,[...deprives others of screen space...], could you clarify what you meant as to anyone being {deprived} screen space by another's post? If you could, then I could respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 10:40:53
In reply to Re: Interesting points - but....., posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 10:09:04
> I prefer to think of it as a place where the protections offered to the one are for the equal protection of all.
I should also say that there are times when the protections offered to all require a limitation upon the privileges of the one.
Now, I have exhausted my allocation. Crap.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 10:44:34
In reply to Lou's response to SLS-dpr-sp » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on September 28, 2004, at 10:37:39
* Test SLS
* Test SLS
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* Test Lou Pilder
* Test SLS
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* Test SLS
* Test SLS
* Test SLS
- Scott
Posted by AuntieMel on September 28, 2004, at 12:53:03
In reply to Re: Interesting points - but....., posted by SLS on September 28, 2004, at 10:09:04
I'll answer you so you can be freed for three more. Although I could effectively cut you off by NOT answering:)
> > > How many people here have commited murder?
>
> > I think this is a bad example.
>
> I would have chosen tax-evasion, but I feared it would have included too many people to make my point.
>Well, actually either one makes a different point. If only one person had ever committed murder or tax-evasion, there would be no need for a law, would there?
> > Murder does actually hurt another person. Multiple posts to admin hurt nobody.
>
> I disagree. I find it disruptive to the flow of discourse and makes it much harder for me to read about issues that are important to me. I feel that unlimited consecutive posting deprives others of screen space and causes the board to turn over more frequently than I can follow. Anyone who *does* want to hurt the community could do so under this circumstance.
>I would be more inclined to agree if the multiple posts were in the middle of a thread AND had nothing to do whatever with that thread. But in the case of one poster starting a thread and adding to it? I can't see a disruption.
It would be nice, though, if things could be archived thread-by-thread according to posts, and *then* look at the size of the entire board. This would help many, many cased, not just multiple postings by the same person.
It's not the goal I disagree with, just the way of achieving it.
And I can't see how a rule with an arbitrary number that is also considered case-by-case (allowing for exceptions) could be enforced fairly.
> > Besides, I prefer to think of babble as NOT being a democracy (majority rules.)
>
> Me too.
>
> > I prefer to think of it as a place where the rights of the minority are protected against the majority.
>
> I prefer to think of it as a place where the protections offered to the one are for the equal protection of all.
>
> > But how much has flexibility been used in other cases? Every time I've stood up for someone, I've been told that 'rules is rules' and intent is too hard to determine to be able to take it into account. NO EXCEPTIONS, I've been told. Why is this different??
>
> It may not be. I don't know what are the intentions of the moderator. I think any new policy or regulation is to suffer growing pains - perhaps even repeal.
>
> > Question: what do you consider 'settle down' to be? Give the new rule time to gel, and those of us that have a problem with it shut our trap?
>
> :-)
>
> (Just kidding)
>
> > Or chunk the rule completely?
>
> I don't know what "chunk" means. Repeal?
>For those that don't speak Texan, chunk sort of means throw away - with force and without aim. You can chunk rocks.
>> So, while theoretically it applies to all, in practice it only applies to one.
> I disagree. In reality, it applies to all.
>Ok, a bit of hair splitting, but true. It applies to all, except for the exceptions. But it's much more likely to be used on only one.
>
> > > This might be a fact, but it is not Lou's fault that the system allowed for a posting behavior that could be disruptive.I didn't answer this one before, but it sounds like you are attempting to protect Lou from himself??
>>I personally found that 10 or more consecutive posts submitted multiple instances on the same page was disruptive.
I can see that, but creating a rule for personal pet-peeves isn't necessarily the answer either.
> I don't want to have to leave this one. Unlimited consecutive posting could easily cause this to happen. I wouldn't want to be here if there were continual filibusters and endless pontificating. This is personal - to me.Perhaps I don't see why it is personal to you.
>I also believe that posting limits are in the best interests of the community as a whole. It's nice when the two coincide.
>I (personally) see it more like the Patriot Act - where the rights of the few are trampled in the name of safety for the many. "Trampled" here is the wrong word - too extreme, but I see the concept as the same.
Melps - it was nice having lots of time to reply, you being stuck at two and waiting for another post......
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