![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 60. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 20:47:43
Dr. Bob,
The following posters are portrying that they use marijuana, AKA, MJ.
I am asking you to determine if their posts violate the code that you have established here, for you write,[...this site should not be used to facilitate any illegal activities...].
Now I belive that if those posts in question are not admonished, that you could give rise to the potential for some to think that you indorse the use of MJ. Also, I believe that psychiatry in accordance with the manual of diagnosis does not advocate the use of MJ and has a diagnostic referrence to those that use MJ.
Next, I believe that this site should be the exempler to those that visit it and I belive that for this site to just leave those posts in question visible without comment from the moderator, that our young people will be led to belive that MJ is OK to use when the diagnostic manual lists the use of such.
And there is great evidence that MJ is a very harmful drug , moreso today than 5000 years ago when the Greeks and Sumarians and others inhaled hemp fumes. There is great evidence that the use of MJ deminishes one's inteligence and makes their thinking distorted. There is great evidence that this drug causes problems that mental health people do not need and should not be used in conjunction with any drugs that are prescribed to a mental health person.
MJ is illegal in most jurisdictions, with some European countries exempt. MJ use in some Islamic countries could result in harsh prison terms or worse. Students caught with MJ in schools could face expulsion with a potentual loss of a year's education and in some cases a criminal record as a juvenile.
I belive that the use of MJ here is not sanctioned by the medical and psychiatric communites and that the intergrity of the board has the potential to be jepordised if the moderator does not enforce the rules, which is to not allow the board to be used to facilitate any illegal activity. For if the rules of the community's code are to matter at all, the one that is to enforce the rules should obey them. If not, I feel that we would have a community of men, not the code, and their individual whims and predudices.
Lou Pilder
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030812/msgs/251545.html
and
251597
and
251573
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 21:25:06
In reply to Lou's request for a determination, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 20:47:43
Dr. Bob,
There are mothers of teenage children here seeking infomation to make informed decisions about the use of drugs for their child. And it would not seem out of the ordinary for these mothers to have a child that they suspect or even have knowlege of that the child is using MJ.
Now the code hear is that this site is not to be used to facilitate any illegal activity. And I feel that there is a great potential for a mother to do things that could make it easier for their child to use illegal MJ when they see those posts in question go unanswered by you, for then the potential is to think that this site says that MJ is OK to use. Does this site say that MJ is OK to use? If it does, then that would make it much easier for a child to make the decision to use MJ. You see, people make decisions from what they read, and this site does have credibility so that the use of an illegal drug that is being used by some posters here could have a great impact on making the decision to use MJ. The decision becomes very easy.
A child could direct their parent or a teacher to this site and say, "See, Dr. Bob does not admonish people using MJ". Teenagers do things because adults do them. That is how the tobacco companies have created a dynasty. Children see the movie stars smoking, so they want to be like them. They see the advertisment in the magazine by a race-car driver and want to be like them. Could not a child read here that a psychiatrists internet mantal health board has thos thwrite that they smoke MJ most evry day make it easier for them to make the decision to smoke MJ which is illegal in almost evry jurisdiction?
I am asking you to not allow this internet mental health forum to be used to facilitate the use of illegal drugs by any means, including posts that posters describe their illegal use of.
Lou Pilder
Posted by zenhussy on August 18, 2003, at 22:00:32
In reply to Lou's request for a determination, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 20:47:43
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 22:20:17
In reply to Prop. 215 in California says medicinal cannabis ok (nm) » Lou Pilder, posted by zenhussy on August 18, 2003, at 22:00:32
zenhussy,
You wrote,[...prop---in Cal. says medicinal cannibus Ok...].
From what I know about that in Cal, that does not make smoking MJ legal unless a doctor prescribes it to gloucoma victims and those taking chemotherapy or some other listed illness. And I also read that there are problems with the law in regrds to federal law.
Anyway, even if smoking MJ is legal in Holland, that does not mean that it is safe to use there or anywhere else. Cocaine was legal in this country up to around 85 years ago. That does not mean that it was safe to use then or now.
In this mental health community, I feel that illegal drugs should not be endirsed in anyway and that those that write of their illegal use of MJ be admonished, for the code here is that the site should not be used to facilitate any illegal activity, and using MJ in most jurisdictions is illegal.
Lou
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 18, 2003, at 22:40:15
In reply to Lou's request for a determination, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 20:47:43
<sigh>... Come now, this is just a little beyond ridiculous. Tattling? My goodness.
Posted by stjames on August 18, 2003, at 23:04:55
In reply to Lou's request for a determination, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 20:47:43
Given that we discuss this kind of this all the time
here & Dr Bob has not spoken up, why do you need a
determination ? We have been discussing this for years, Lou.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 23:17:25
In reply to Re: Lou's request for a determination, posted by stjames on August 18, 2003, at 23:04:55
St. James,
I do not generally visit the psycho babble board so i am not aware of the discussions you point out. But in any of those discussions, did Dr. Bob make a determination? If so, could you give me the URL?
But what if there is a determination that allows posters to advocate testing smoking MJ to see if it does something for them? Are you saying that the determionation should be accepted? If there has been a determination to allow such, then I will attempt to have that changed by the venue of this administrative board to write my point of view about such, for I feel that this mental health board should abide by the rule that is given hear,ie; that this site should not be used to facilitate any illegal activity and the use of MJ in most jurisdictions is illegal.
Lou
Posted by shar on August 18, 2003, at 23:24:37
In reply to Re: Lou's request for a determination, posted by stjames on August 18, 2003, at 23:04:55
Lou,
People talk about many different meds (including marijuana) on this board, used for their own medicinal purposes (as some can use weed in California), but we have no way of determining whether they are obtaining any of those meds (a) legally, or (b) as an "off topic" use. By off topic I mean prescribed by a dr. but not for the use it's originally intended for (there is a better word than off topic, but I can't remember it).Moreover, when people talk about using some drugs (such as alcohol) we don't know if they are of age. There are some things we can't monitor here because we don't have enough info.
While I don't expect to change your opinion, I do believe MJ helps many people, and is used as a legal drug in some instances, and IMO shouldn't be banished as a topic. Many pdocs, I suspect, know that their clients smoke pot, and it thus becomes a part of treatment (whether or not by prescription), and should be discussed here.
If someone is concerned about teens using pot, there are MANY MANY sites that provide 'just say no' and 'DARE to be drug free' information. There is nothing on this site that is right for all readers. The opennes of discussion is an important part of obtaining information, and what is said here is not a recommendation in any way (as is noted on each page). This is an adult site in essence, even though teens may read it. I imagine they quickly get bored with the "Lexapro vs. Zyprexa" threads, and the "Effexor Withdrawal" threads, plus the ones about fish oil, etc. There are other much more exciting places for teens to go to read about the joys of pot, if that's what they're looking for.
Shar
Posted by zenhussy on August 18, 2003, at 23:26:07
In reply to Pot, etc., posted by shar on August 18, 2003, at 23:24:37
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 23:42:37
In reply to Pot, etc., posted by shar on August 18, 2003, at 23:24:37
Shar,
You wrote,[...we have no way of determining if they are obtiaining legally or an off topic...].
I disagree with that conclusion for the only jurisdiction that I know of that has legal use of MJ is in Holland, and my daughter and her husband returned from there last year and told me about it. It is not that simple, even there. It is controlled in pubs, and amounts over personal use are illegal, as it was explained to me.
It is my understanding that the posters advocating trying MJ do not reside in Holland. See a previous post in this thread with my answer to the medicinal question. People here are not saying that they were prescribed MJ for chemotherepy and such. On the contrary, they wrote that they should not get busted and if they were using MJ as a california chemotherpy or gloucoma victim, that was not written. Also, one of the posters has written that she is a London, England resident.
Lou
Posted by zenhussy on August 18, 2003, at 23:44:51
In reply to Lou's reply to St. James post-, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 23:17:25
> St. James,
> I do not generally visit the psycho babble board so i am not aware of the discussions you point out. But in any of those discussions, did Dr. Bob make a determination? If so, could you give me the URL?Lou,
There is a great search feature on this site as well as Dr. Bob's link to searching this site with Google. I'm sure that if you really, really were interested in past (ancient) discussions regarding the topic matters that stjames brings up then you could do a search instead of requesting others to do the leg work for you.
If this issue is so important to you then please bring a bit more than anti drug propaganda to the discussion.
> But what if there is a determination that allows posters to advocate testing smoking MJ to see if it does something for them? Are you saying that the determionation should be accepted? If there has been a determination to allow such, then I will attempt to have that changed by the venue of this administrative board to write my point of view about such,...
>>>>...for I feel...<<<<
Exactly. What *YOU* feel Lou. Your feelings are important here but your moral compass is not the one and only one so please refrain from trying to chart the course for the entire babblers based on your "feelings".
>...that this mental health board should abide by the rule that is given hear,ie; that this site should not be used to facilitate any illegal activity and the use of MJ in most jurisdictions is illegal.
> LouI believe this site provides information and with disclaimers regarding such information. People need to be informed consumers and human beings. Anyone coming to this site and switching their meds or going off a med or using an alternative med or supplement based on some other poster's account of pill 123 or substance abc is flat out foolish. Dr. Bob even has these words at the top of each part of the babble boards: Don't necessarily believe everything you hear. Your mileage may vary. The only posts I take responsibility for are my own.
Good luck Lou.
zenhussy
Posted by zenhussy on August 18, 2003, at 23:55:19
In reply to Lou's response to Shar's post-PT » shar, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 23:42:37
> Shar,
> You wrote,[...we have no way of determining if they are obtiaining legally or an off topic...].
> I disagree with that conclusion for the only jurisdiction that I know of that has legal use of MJ is in Holland, and my daughter and her husband returned from there last year and told me about it. It is not that simple, even there. It is controlled in pubs, and amounts over personal use are illegal, as it was explained to me.
> It is my understanding that the posters advocating trying MJ do not reside in Holland. See a previous post in this thread with my answer to the medicinal question. People here are not saying that they were prescribed MJ for chemotherepy and such. On the contrary, they wrote that they should not get busted and if they were using MJ as a california chemotherpy or gloucoma victim, that was not written. Also, one of the posters has written that she is a London, England resident.
> Lou
>Lou,
Here are some links so that you can stop referring to medicinal cannabis as just being used for "glaucoma victims (and why would you ever refer to someone with glaucoma as a victim???) and chemotherapy patients.You need to be a bit more informed before tossing about such stale propaganda.
http://www.cannabisnews.com/information/
http://www.wamm.org/medicinalbenefits.htm
http://www.cannabismd.com/reports/
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/medicalm.htm
Happy reading.
zh
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 23:55:34
In reply to Pot, etc., posted by shar on August 18, 2003, at 23:24:37
Shar,
You wrote,[...there are some things that we can not monitor here because we do not have enough info...].
I disgree with your conclusion, for the use of MJ is illegal in almost all jurisdictions. I did not see antything written that the poster was a glocoma victum or taking chemotherypy in California as a reason that they used to smoke MJ. The infomation given was about the use of MJ with other psychotropic drugs.
You wrote,[...we don't know if a person talking about alchohol is of age...].
Alchohol; is not a controlled drug like MJ. But I would be interestded in seeing any of those posts in order to respond to them.
Lou
Posted by zenhussy on August 18, 2003, at 23:59:29
In reply to Lou's reply yo Shar's post-PT-AL, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 23:55:34
But I would be interestded in seeing any of those posts in order to respond to them.
> LouLou,
Do a search then.
zh
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 0:21:22
In reply to Pot, etc., posted by shar on August 18, 2003, at 23:24:37
Shar,
You wrote,[...MJ helps many people and is used as a legal drug...].
MJ is an illegal drug. It is illegal because of what the effects of the drug have on people and society as a whole. In the history of the world, MJ goes way back. And the effects of the drug are well-documented. Some countries have skid-row type areas of people that use MJ. Hirerd killers used MJ before they killed. They used the form called hasheeshan. The word assasin comes from those people. The list of dibilitating effects of MJ use is well documented ijn the liturature. It is a hallucinogenic substance and distorts peoples' thinking. No amount of clubs that advocate the use of MJ will change that.
You wrote that it is used as a legal drug. Plese tell me what instances it is used for legally except for chemotherypy and gloucoma and I will respond accordingly.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 0:36:04
In reply to Pot, etc., posted by shar on August 18, 2003, at 23:24:37
Shar,
You wrote, [...what is written here is not a reccommendation in any way...].
I disagree with you on that point because our young people give creedance and credibility to any site that is moderated by a psychiatrist. The medical profession is upheld above all othe professions in the USA. If a teenager sees what a psychiatrist 's board is saying, they give it great importance due to the fact that doctors are held in the highest esteem here. So it is my contention that by allowing the posts in question to go unanswered, a teenager could have his/her decision to use MJ made very easy to him/her, regasrdless of any disclaimer about milage and who to belive.
And a a teacher in the public scools for many years, I have seen the ruined lives of those that used MJ.They were caught in school or out and expulsion was given to many. Many dropped out of school;, or did not continue their education. Many were later criminals. Several became murderers. They were students that I taught. Thjey were students that wanted to do what the heros did, the rock stars that used drugs. Robert Zimmerman did not know the caliber of disaster that his music would have.
Lou
Posted by shar on August 19, 2003, at 1:05:34
In reply to Lou's reply yo Shar's post-PT-AL, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 23:55:34
Lou,
I suppose the bottom line is (as my therapist would say) "what is your goal?"Is it to make this site one in which discussion is confined to legal topics? So, we would not have people talk about anything that is grounds for involvement of the law?
As I previously stated, the PB forum is essentially for adults looking for solutions, or asking questions about medications and drugs. For it to be a reflection of reality, and the real lives of individuals, and therefore useful to individuals, there will be times when illegal drug use may be discussed. It's possible that someone might learn NOT to use an illegal substance with AD's, which might save their lives. What a dilemma if discussion of an illegal drug was not allowed, and someone died because of it.
However, we know that this place (admin) is one in which we can agree to disagree, in a civil (if not ever-so-charming) manner. And, on this one, I will accept that you believe in your opinion, and I have my own which is very different.
Shar
Posted by zenhussy on August 19, 2003, at 1:21:01
In reply to Lou's response to Shar's post-PT-, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 0:21:22
Plese tell me what instances it is used for legally except for chemotherypy and gloucoma and I will respond accordingly.
> Lou
>
Lou,http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030808/msgs/252025.html
Read my above post and you will find links to medical usages of cannabis.
Just read instead of asking for others to supply information for you.
zh
Posted by shar on August 19, 2003, at 1:26:17
In reply to Lou's response to Shar's post-PT, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 0:36:04
> Shar,
> You wrote, [...what is written here is not a reccommendation in any way...].
> I disagree with you on that point because our young people give creedance and credibility to any site that is moderated by a psychiatrist. The medical profession is upheld above all othe professions in the USA. If a teenager sees what a psychiatrist 's board is saying, they give it great importance due to the fact that doctors are held in the highest esteem here. So it is my contention that by allowing the posts in question to go unanswered, a teenager could have his/her decision to use MJ made very easy to him/her, regasrdless of any disclaimer about milage and who to belive.........Lou, I honestly believe that young people pay much more attention to their peers and celebrities, than to their doctors or the medical establishment. And, that a web site such as this would NOT be the determining factor in whether a teen decided to use pot. Nor, would a teen be likely to pour through the myriad of non-pot-related posts in order to find one where someone says "will it hurt me if I use pot with my AD?" and then suddenly decide that "hey, man, now I'm gonna use pot!"
> And a a teacher in the public scools for many years, I have seen the ruined lives of those that used MJ.
.....I've not taught school to teens, but I've seen many teens through rehab, worked with some, and never found that a factor of their drug abuse was a medically oriented website. In fact, I think if many had had access to a website about mental health, ad's, medical issues, it could have had an excellent impact. However, the websites of interest were those that glorified and/or reified the use of pot or other drugs...which one could hardly say describes PB.
>Thjey were students that wanted to do what the heros did, the rock stars that used drugs.
..........I would agree with your statement above. Rock stars, movie stars, sports stars, friends, parents....but, not websites about mental health issues.
.......Your pain and empathy for these youngsters is obvious, and admirable, but IMO the change you would make in PB would not necessarily make a difference in the tortured lives of these youth.
Shar
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 19, 2003, at 6:18:35
In reply to Lou's request for a determination-MJ 2 » Lou Pilder, posted by Lou Pilder on August 18, 2003, at 21:25:06
All I said was that I smoked marajuana. I never told anyone where they could get it, or that I would supply them.
Where I live a small amount of marajuana for personal use will not get your arrested or given any kind of record.
I believe I have not broken any rules, as I have not spoken ot where this drug could be obtained.
nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 19, 2003, at 6:34:05
In reply to Re: Lou's request for a determination-MJ 2, posted by NikkiT2 on August 19, 2003, at 6:18:35
Lou, you say that Alcohol isn;t a ocntrolled drug.
So.. why can it only be sold by those licensed to sell it?? Why is it illegal to sell it to those under age??
So.. if I were 19, and spoke here about drinking a bottle of vodka a day, how would you feel about that?? At 19 I am legal to buy that vodka in the UK.. but in the US I would not be. Would I be encouraging other 19 year olds in the US to go and buy vodka??Would you like me to email ALL posts that I may make in the future to you first, so that I can make sure they match your very high moral judgements??
Maybe tonight I will simply get drunk and go out and have a fight and have some uprotected sex.
Nikki
Posted by wendy b. on August 19, 2003, at 7:34:06
In reply to Lou's response to Shar's post-PT, posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 0:36:04
>Robert Zimmerman did not know the caliber of disaster that his music would have.
The "caliber of disaster"? Lou, millions of people worldwide who honor and respect the man and love his music would ardently disagree. I know I do. Dylan doesn't condone neither does he condemn the use of illegal substances. His music is more complex than that. But I'm sure he'd probably disagree with how our government handles the regulation of pot. And, geeze, don't get mad or anything, but Friday night I'm off to see Dylan perform, and yes, a lot of people will be standing around smoking pot and enjoying themselves. Who cares?
Here are a few words from a song you might like:
"The neighborhood bully
been driven out of every land.
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered,
his people hounded and torn.
He's always on trial for just being born...
He's the neighborhood bully."(Bob Dylan, "Neighborhood Bully" from the album Jokerman)
Wendy
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 8:05:50
In reply to Re: Now it's Lou vs. Bob Dylan! what next?, posted by wendy b. on August 19, 2003, at 7:34:06
Wendy b.
The music of Bob Dylan is one of the most influential in history. It is the foundation for many, including Brian Jones with Mick Jagger and many others. The music initiated a culture to embrace marijuana and anti-establishment ideas. One of the songs that glorified MJ was;
"Evrybody must get stoned."
another was "Subterranian homesick blues"
Other artists used Bob Dylan's music such as Sonny and Sher in their magnificant version of
"I've Got You Babe".
But it was th eearly music that caught the British groups attention and the outgrowth was many songs that glorified the use of drugs. Remember Woodstock.
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 19, 2003, at 8:37:37
In reply to Lou's reply to wendy b's post BD » wendy b., posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 8:05:50
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 19, 2003, at 8:39:57
In reply to Re: Lou's request for a determination-MJ 2, posted by NikkiT2 on August 19, 2003, at 6:18:35
NikkiT2,
You wrote,"All I said was that I smoked marajuana."
But you also wrote that you did this on almost a daily basis.
Now regular use would requier obtaining the illegal drug through sorces . The psychiatric manual describes this behavior.
I believe that we all have an obligation to be the exemplar to our young people here, and I would like to see the moderator here, aka, Dr. Bob, make a determination about posters being allowed or not to post about their use of illegal drugs. whether the penalty for possession of small amounts is just a fine, does not change the illigality of the drug. and if people use an illegal drug on a regular basis, they would either have to go out each day and find someone to get the drug from, or have an amount handy that could last them many days or weeks or such. This could mean that the user would buy more than the amount that would be punishable by a fine, and could lead them to but ,perhaps, the amount that could land them in prison, even though they only smoked a small amount. This happened to a women that I went to high school with. She was at a party where MJ was being smoked and the police were called and they were all arrested. A small amount of cocain was found and they all recieved one year in the penitentery. The MJ charge was secondary, but they were still charged with such and got addittional time in prison. Now if the MJ was not going to be used at all, perhaps she would not have gone to prison for the cocain was there and she did not know of it, but the police didn't care about who knew and who didn't know.
Lou
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