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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 65 to 89 of 97. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2003, at 9:36:47
In reply to it's interesting, what's going on in this thread » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Zo on August 8, 2003, at 0:34:29
>
> Follow me, here. In the world of Aspergers, the rest of us are called NTs. For neurotypical. And it is granted, by all, that NTs feel the general social run of things. Whether one approves or not, we are the norm. Whether it is fair or not - and I didn't invent this stuff - society and psychology are rife with judgement upon those who do not readily, or easily, "connect" to others. OR - and this is an important or - readily "get" the tone of things, that others are getting.
>And I'm really trying not to get upset at that paragraph. Perhaps it doesn't mean what it sounds like? I really would like to give you the benefit of the doubt....
Speaking as someone who was tormented all my life by the "normals" of the world. Are you saying that that's ok because we're the odd ones and odd is bad and odd must conform to what the normals say they should be? I'm sure I must be misconstruing your intent. Because if that is what you meant, you wouldn't be bothering to argue with Dr. Bob.
Please forgive my slowness. As a non-neurotypical, perhaps I don't easily get what is obvious to neurotypicals.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2003, at 9:44:30
In reply to Re: it's interesting, what's going on in this thread » Zo, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2003, at 9:36:47
Even I don't know what I meant by that last post. Just that that paragraph disturbed me. Just ignore my last post.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 8, 2003, at 9:57:41
In reply to Re: Oh never mind, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2003, at 9:44:30
> Even I don't know what I meant by that last post. Just that that paragraph disturbed me. Just ignore my last post.
May I make a suggestion? There were assumptions being made about you. It's the same reason why racism, sexism and all other fill-in-the-blank-isms are offensive.
Lar
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 8, 2003, at 10:32:58
In reply to Re: Oh never mind » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on August 8, 2003, at 9:57:41
It seems, to me, that people are upset that people have left due to Dr Bobs rules.
What about the people who left because abuse was being directed at them? Or are they considered too sensitive so don't deserve to be here?
I found most of what you were saying about Aspies pretty offensive.. one of my bext friends has AS, and my nephew is seveerly autistic.. and I know my friend would be very upset at how you have portrayed such people. Yes, at times it is tough being close friends with an aspie, as he doesn't understand the consequences of what he says, he forgets about other people emotions, but he is a very loving young man, and very sensitive with it. And he is learning from the mistakes he makes.
I would also be pretty offended to be psycho analysed by someone who is not a psychiatrist or psychologist, and especially when they know absolutaly nothing about the person they are attempting to analyse.
Nikki
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 8, 2003, at 12:16:41
In reply to it's interesting, what's going on in this thread » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Zo on August 8, 2003, at 0:34:29
You know, I have to say I wholeheartedly agree with you. I could have surely approached this in a manner that would not have left anyone feeling alienated or ganged up on, but I suppose I was just a bit befuddled at a the time as to what it was in Larry's post that was so offensive.
You are 100% correct though -- if a person is genuinely offended by something, then arguing over semantics or the original poster's intent is rather silly. Thank you for helping me to realize this.
I'm still trying to refine my social skills (I suppose it shows :-)... I mean, I was a housebound agoraphobe/social phobe for two years, so that makes it difficult. But your post was extremely thoughtful, and it's eye-openers like this that will allow me to become a better listener, communicator, and friend (I hope) to many of you. Thank you so much for posting this. :-)
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 8, 2003, at 12:39:17
In reply to Re: it's interesting, what's going on in this thread » Zo, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 8, 2003, at 12:16:41
I do hope you will accept my heartfelt apology. It was unbelievably ignorant of me not to take your feelings into consideration, and I am infinitely sorry for that. Looking back over the posts, I can't believe I reacted to you the way that I did... I would not have wanted to be treated that way, and unfortunately the Golden Rule was sort of pushed aside in favor of logic. I suppose this is because (as I mentioned in the above post) I'm still working on my social skills after all that time housebound, and for a long time, logic was all I needed to rely on.
Once again, I offer my sincerest apologies, though I understand completely if you won't accept them.
~~Michael
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2003, at 19:30:15
In reply to Re: Bob, please consider a PBC for Larry, posted by Simcha on August 8, 2003, at 1:39:18
I scored 24 :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 9, 2003, at 0:19:01
In reply to Re: Bob, please consider a PBC for Larry, posted by Zo on August 8, 2003, at 1:54:44
> It is not the scrupulosity with which you justify your own words that troubles me - and I do not mean to single you out, I merely address you both because you are here - and represent a position, a way of thinking, that contributes to many of the misunderstandings I've seen here.
If you don't mean to single someone out, then don't single them out.
> Instead of turning *towards* your fellow board member who is upset with you, to mend things with them - you turn to your own words, reread them, find nothing wrong - and put the other person, who has told you of their feelings, at an further remove.
>
> when you comb over your post, instead of really listening to the *person* and their complaints, it unfortunately broadcasts a message I'm not sure you intend.
>
> the analytical type ... withdraws even more from the person who wanted and needed his presence.
>
> Ame, Lar, it gives offense to justify yourself
>
> to listen is to demonstrate caring and respect. That's what is important. Not that your post be impeccable and well-defended.> Aspergers adult males can and do give more than offense, their standards and behaviors are abusive, and the results are the same on their wives, partners, children.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down. The last time you were blocked, it was for 8 weeks, so this time, it's for 16. Best wishes,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 9, 2003, at 0:21:59
In reply to Re: it's interesting, what's going on in this thread » Zo, posted by Larry Hoover on August 8, 2003, at 9:24:43
> Your comments are naive.
Could you please rephrase that one sentence? Thanks,
Bob
Posted by zenhussy on August 9, 2003, at 0:26:47
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on August 9, 2003, at 0:21:59
> > Your comments are naive.
>
> Could you please rephrase that one sentence? Thanks,
>
> BobWhoa there Bob. Zo is out on her heiny for 16 weeks and this is the SECOND please rephrase that that Larry Hoover is asked for.
Um......yeah.
zenhussy
Posted by BekkaH on August 9, 2003, at 0:59:45
In reply to Re: I don't really understand.????, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2003, at 7:44:34
> > > So some of us may feel so safe here that we >don't wish to post elsewhere.
***********************************************Many posters refer to PB as "a safe place." I'm interested to know how PB is safe. And what is it safe from?
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 9, 2003, at 1:09:44
In reply to Re: I don't really understand.???? - Dinah, posted by BekkaH on August 9, 2003, at 0:59:45
> Many posters refer to PB as "a safe place." I'm interested to know how PB is safe. And what is it safe from?
My own hope is that they'll be relatively safe from incivility.
Others are, of course, free to speak for themselves, but should then remember to take care not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, thanks.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2003, at 3:11:41
In reply to Re: I don't really understand.???? - Dinah, posted by BekkaH on August 9, 2003, at 0:59:45
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2003, at 3:18:50
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob is right. On all counts. :) (nm) » BekkaH, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2003, at 3:11:41
Just a clarification, because my silly side is often misunderstood.
What I meant was that I was about to say more or less what Dr. Bob said (and in the middle of the night that's enough to make me sillyish). That it felt relatively safe from the things he tries to protect us from, broadly defined as incivility on this site.
And that to be more specific than that would probably be unwise as there are people who define incivility differently than Dr. Bob, who might be offended.
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 9, 2003, at 7:01:16
In reply to Re: I don't really understand.???? - Dinah, posted by BekkaH on August 9, 2003, at 0:59:45
> Many posters refer to PB as "a safe place." I'm interested to know how PB is safe. And what is it safe from?Like Dr Bob says.. its safe from incivility.. here I won't get attacked for saying how I am feeling, I won't get attacked for being fat, or being short... I won't get attacked period as a rule. And if someone attacks me, I know they will be dealt with.
thats why I find it safe. Its not always been so safe, (I've been here 4 years) which is why some of us appreciate the safetly of it now
Nikki
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 9, 2003, at 7:31:17
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by zenhussy on August 9, 2003, at 0:26:47
> > > Your comments are naive.
> >
> > Could you please rephrase that one sentence? Thanks,
> >
> > Bob
>
> Whoa there Bob. Zo is out on her heiny for 16 weeks and this is the SECOND please rephrase that that Larry Hoover is asked for.
>
> Um......yeah.
>
> zenhussyI was going to post something on the subject anyway (relevant to my delay in rephrasing in the first instance), when this second instance arose. Dr. Bob and I were engaged in an email discussion, in which I required some clarification from him of just what the problem is. If there is an incivility in my language, it is very subtle, and unintentional.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 9, 2003, at 7:53:25
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on August 9, 2003, at 0:21:59
> > Your comments are naive.
>
> Could you please rephrase that one sentence? Thanks,
>
> BobI could have said the same thing, without any use of the second person, i.e. "you". Moreover, I might have better gotten my point across without using the word naive, which may have some "baggage" attached to it, in common usage.
So, to retain my intended meaning, I might have said...
There are many other ways to view the world than from through the template of Asperger's and neurotypical.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 9, 2003, at 8:06:24
In reply to Re: I don't really understand.???? - Dinah, posted by BekkaH on August 9, 2003, at 0:59:45
> > > > So some of us may feel so safe here that we >don't wish to post elsewhere.
> ***********************************************
>
> Many posters refer to PB as "a safe place." I'm interested to know how PB is safe. And what is it safe from?It may not be obvious from here, what is meant by "safe place". Out there, on Usenet, I have been attacked by swarms (organized trolls), I have had numerous postings forged under my name, I have even had "Googled quotes" fabricated in my name. These were taking place without obvious provocation, in some cases. In other instances, misunderstanding arose, but they were used to create massive floods of invective (the classic flaming). For example, I mentioned my past abuse of alcohol, so suddenly I'm made out to be a wife-beating, child-molesting monster in denial.
The most common problem was that simple debate would turn ad hominem in an instant. Who needs that?
Perhaps, being a geek makes me particularly vulnerable to that sort of thing, but who knows.
The rules about civility (remember, that has the same root meaning as civilized), are really about not making ad hominem (at the person) comments.
Recent events here have helped me to refine my interpersonal dialogue. That's a good thing. A life skill. I wouldn't (and didn't) get that kind of learning "out there".
Lar
Posted by zenhussy on August 9, 2003, at 9:23:55
In reply to Re: I don't really understand.???? - Dinah » BekkaH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 9, 2003, at 8:06:24
>>Recent events here have helped me to refine my interpersonal dialogue. That's a good thing. A life skill. I wouldn't (and didn't) get that kind of learning "out there".<<--Larry Hoover
Dr. Bob,
So Larry gets to work out his interpersonal skills here....is GIVEN the chance not once but twice and fortunately goes with it for the betterment of all. It's nice to see when a poster uses their 'get out of jail free' card wisely. Why not give that card to all posters?
Where is Zo's chance?
Ace's chance?
kid_A's chance?
a non syncophant,
zenhussy
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 9, 2003, at 10:58:47
In reply to and where would Zo's learning take place?--Dr. Bob, posted by zenhussy on August 9, 2003, at 9:23:55
> >>Recent events here have helped me to refine my interpersonal dialogue. That's a good thing. A life skill. I wouldn't (and didn't) get that kind of learning "out there".<<--Larry Hoover
>
> Dr. Bob,
>
> So Larry gets to work out his interpersonal skills here....We all get to do that, if we decide to do so.
As the philosophy being questioned was mine, I'd like to expand on the subject a little more.
I think that what is important in life is not what happens, but what one does in response to what happens. Events permit decisions. And, as a decision might be to choose one path over another, prior decisions can impact on the very nature of subsequent ones. At a possible fork in the road, choosing one path over another will inevitably lead to later decisions particular to the path chosen. In effect, you can look at individual decisions as being part of a decision tree.
Another issue is locus of control, i.e. what is in my power, and what is not. Bob gave me a PBC. That's a decision point for me. Anything is possible, but I decide what I'm going to do about it. I haven't submitted to Bob's will. I have chosen a path for personal betterment. I would like to think that is one of the outcomes Bob would like to see, but he can't make it happen.
In my comments directed to Pax, I made a strong effort to be civil, but not to avoid controversy, per se. (One of the issues I discussed with Bob via email was controversy.) In retropect, I failed to avoid incivility, perhaps miserably.
I'm sorry, Pax. I had hoped to have a more direct and personal opportunity to express that sentiment, but you haven't reappeared. So, here it is, anyway.
>...is GIVEN the chance not once but twice and fortunately goes with it for the betterment of all.
Thank you for acknowledging my efforts. Bob affords many people discretion, something that I think many people fail to acknowledge. Pax got PBC'ed in this thread, even though he had previously been banned. In the initial flap over the Ace banning, djmm and others used all kinds of forbidden language, without penalty.
>It's nice to see when a poster uses their 'get out of jail free' card wisely. Why not give that card to all posters?
Theirs expired, unused?
> Where is Zo's chance?At PBC, one week, two weeks, four weeks, and eight weeks. Now, sixteen weeks. According to *my* philosophy, those would be the decision points in the decision tree.
> Ace's chance?
>
> kid_A's chance?Similar.
> a non syncophant,
> zenhussyQuite separately to the above, the very presence of this word on the page is offensive to me, although the word is sycophant.
Lar
Posted by zenhussy on August 9, 2003, at 11:04:11
In reply to Re: and where would Zo's learning take place? » zenhussy, posted by Larry Hoover on August 9, 2003, at 10:58:47
>
> > a non syncophant,
> > zenhussy
>
> Quite separately to the above, the very presence of this word on the page is offensive to me, although the word is sycophant.
>
> LarLar,
Like stjames I too am offended at my spelling or grammar being corrected here.
Thank you for not attending to this matter again.
zenhussy
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 9, 2003, at 11:39:54
In reply to Re: and where would Zo's learning take place? » Larry Hoover, posted by zenhussy on August 9, 2003, at 11:04:11
> >
> > > a non syncophant,
> > > zenhussy
> >
> > Quite separately to the above, the very presence of this word on the page is offensive to me, although the word is sycophant.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Lar,
>
> Like stjames I too am offended at my spelling or grammar being corrected here.
>
> Thank you for not attending to this matter again.
>
> zenhussyI'm sorry.
Lar
Posted by KimberlyDi on August 9, 2003, at 15:06:13
In reply to Re: Bob, please consider a PBC for Larry, posted by Zo on August 8, 2003, at 0:04:32
Puhlease folks...
I was talking to a co-worker about the problem of disciplining step-children. Her reply "When they are in MY house, they abide by MY rules."
We're in Dr. Bob's house.
Something I tell my son all the time. "If you didn't pay for it, don't complain about it."
This is a free service. No one pays to be on here and expects to get their money's worth.
Yet he nicely provides a forum for us to b*tch about his "ADMINISTRATION".
This is too much. LOL
KDi in Texas
Posted by SLS on August 9, 2003, at 15:27:33
In reply to Re: Bob, please consider a PBC for Larry » Zo, posted by KimberlyDi on August 9, 2003, at 15:06:13
> Yet he nicely provides a forum for us to b*tch about his "ADMINISTRATION".
So, what is the final word on the use of strategically placed asterisks (or any other place-holder)? Are the words "b*tch" and "*ss" and f*ck to be permitted? Judgment call?
(This is not meant to be comment on KimberlyDi's post).
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 10, 2003, at 10:39:31
In reply to Re: Bob, please consider a PBC for Larry, posted by SLS on August 9, 2003, at 15:27:33
> So, what is the final word on the use of strategically placed asterisks (or any other place-holder)? Are the words "b*tch" and "*ss" and f*ck to be permitted? Judgment call?
These kinds of things are rarely final, but for now, anyway, I'm inclined to permit them. But I'm open to input. Or at least trying to be...
Bob
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