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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 66. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 30, 2021, at 0:32:31
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by undopaminergic on July 30, 2021, at 0:15:38
Even Psychotherapy creates dependecy if it is the first and only person you could ever really talk to about deep seated problems. I think dependency is a better word for what you mean than addiction. You depend on stuff that makes you better.
> Yes, but when pain is present, painkilling is rewarding, relatively to baseline, and is one reason you'd want to use the drug again. I agree that "addictive" is perhaps not the right term, but I don't know one that fits better.
>
> -undopaminergic
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 30, 2021, at 1:09:58
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 30, 2021, at 0:32:31
It is hard not to depend on anything when you are trying to get better.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 3:09:10
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 30, 2021, at 1:09:58
If I go full blown Lou Pilder on you guys, please tell me. I dont want to do that. I just want to give some food for thought sometimes. I will contain myself enough to not disrupt the supportive and inclusive nature of this board that I love. It is why I am here. My road to wellness just seems to be different and I want to share. I did get help along the way here anyway. That is what this place is about, which is awesome. I cant give sophisticated scientific theories, I try to support mostly emotionally or with my experiences if I can.
Posted by undopaminergic on August 1, 2021, at 9:34:55
In reply to Am I Lou Pildering you guys?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 3:09:10
> If I go full blown Lou Pilder on you guys, please tell me. I dont want to do that. I just want to give some food for thought sometimes. I will contain myself enough to not disrupt the supportive and inclusive nature of this board that I love. It is why I am here. My road to wellness just seems to be different and I want to share. I did get help along the way here anyway. That is what this place is about, which is awesome. I cant give sophisticated scientific theories, I try to support mostly emotionally or with my experiences if I can.
>
>I don't know who Lou Pilder is, and I'm not sure what you are apologetic about.
The only things that sometimes bother me about you are a) that you are sometimes cryptic, at least until one goes back and reads the previous post (the one you're replying to), and b) your tendency to post two or more very short messages successively, rather than a single message with more substance. (a) could be helped by citing (or paraphrasing) what you're referring to, and (b) could solved by not submitting your post so fast, but instead waiting a bit to see if additional thoughts you want to express come to mind.
-undopaminergic
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 10:30:53
In reply to Re: Am I Lou Pildering you guys?, posted by undopaminergic on August 1, 2021, at 9:34:55
Thanks for your candid response. Lets see if I can fix that. Should be able to.
Lou Pilder stopped posting before you came here. He took psychiatry criticism and criticism of posters way too far. Spammed the board. He also was always the victim. Both the posters and himself were constantly offended in a vicious circle. It wasnt fun. In short, it was something this board didnt need.
Yeah my participation here would be less spammy without consecutive posts.
Posted by undopaminergic on August 1, 2021, at 11:57:47
In reply to Re: Am I Lou Pildering you guys?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 10:30:53
> Thanks for your candid response. Lets see if I can fix that. Should be able to.
>Thanks.
> Lou Pilder stopped posting before you came here.
Apparently, you mean while I was gone, not before I came -- I was active here in 2008, and it appears Lou Pilder was here in 2014.
> Yeah my participation here would be less spammy without consecutive posts.
>I wouldn't worry about "spammy" for now -- this board needs more activity, not less.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:25:14
In reply to Am I Lou Pildering you guys?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 3:09:10
That's hilarious. "Lou Pildering" is now an official verb.
"Friends ....."
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:30:26
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by undopaminergic on July 30, 2021, at 0:15:38
>Yes, but when pain is present, painkilling is >rewarding, relatively to baseline, and is one >reason you'd want to use the drug again. I agree >that "addictive" is perhaps not the right term, >but I don't know one that fits better.
Yes, but if you had a painkiller that did not cause reward (in and of itself), then yes one might feel better after taking it (if in pain) but it's not the drug producing the reward. It's simply the desirability of less pain.
For example. If you take an aspirin, and it relieves a headache, you wouldn't bother take a second. However, if you took some morphine for that same headache, you might ask for more 10 minutes later.
Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 13:33:06
In reply to Re: Am I Lou Pildering you guys? » Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:25:14
:)
> That's hilarious. "Lou Pildering" is now an official verb.
>
> "Friends ....."
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:34:47
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 30, 2021, at 0:32:31
>Even Psychotherapy creates dependency if it is the >first and only person you could ever really talk >to about deep seated problems. I think dependency >is a better word for what you mean than addiction. >You depend on stuff that makes you better.
I would argue that you still have issues if you are dependent on your therapist. I have rehabilitated sick squirrels (from time to time) (which is a perfect analogy for human psychiatric patients BTW - kidding). The goal however, is to get them back into nature. Hence, you have to be very careful of your procedure. The first two wanted to be my pet. With more rehabs however, we learned how to make them self sufficient.
Of course, it depends on the individual as well. There are certain personalities that are very dependent. Others are more independent.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:41:26
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on July 30, 2021, at 1:09:58
>It is hard not to depend on anything when you are >trying to get better.
Of course. Unfortunately some (or many) of us have been dealt a bad genetic card whereby the medications may relieve the symptoms but they are doing nothing to correct the underlying genetic defects.
You can't nurse somebody back from Huntington's (for example).
There is nothing inherently wrong for taking a chemical so long as the benefits outweigh the risks. You body / brain operate on a kazillion chemicals.
Am I dependent on wearing my glasses? Probably, but who cares?
This being said, I (personally) believe in testing the doses and seeing what happens. Don't keep taking 500mg of a medication if 250mg will do just as well.
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:44:38
In reply to Re: Am I Lou Pildering you guys?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 13:33:06
I have no problem with schizophrenics. It's the pretentious schizohprenics that I can't stand.
I have to stop. Even the conversation of Lou has raised my blood pressure. I want to punch somebody ASAP.
:)
Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 13:46:23
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis? » Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:41:26
Yeah this may be the case sometimes, but I dont think every mental health issue that exists is genetic in every person. If you claim something like that, you have to be able to prove it. I for one am being abused. Have been for decades, no end in near sight.
> >It is hard not to depend on anything when you are >trying to get better.
>
> Of course. Unfortunately some (or many) of us have been dealt a bad genetic card whereby the medications may relieve the symptoms but they are doing nothing to correct the underlying genetic defects.
>
> You can't nurse somebody back from Huntington's (for example).
>
> There is nothing inherently wrong for taking a chemical so long as the benefits outweigh the risks. You body / brain operate on a kazillion chemicals.
>
> Am I dependent on wearing my glasses? Probably, but who cares?
>
> This being said, I (personally) believe in testing the doses and seeing what happens. Don't keep taking 500mg of a medication if 250mg will do just as well.
>
>
> Linakdge
>
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 13:49:30
In reply to Re: Am I Lou Pildering you guys?, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:44:38
How do you mean that?
> I have no problem with schizophrenics. It's the pretentious schizohprenics that I can't stand.
>
> I have to stop. Even the conversation of Lou has raised my blood pressure. I want to punch somebody ASAP.
>
> :)
>
> Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 14:51:47
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis? » Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:41:26
i dont know how commonly, but it is conceivable that sometimes patients are errenously considered to have bad genes and that way dont get the most appropriate treatment for them.
> Unfortunately some (or many) of us have been dealt a bad genetic card whereby the medications may relieve the symptoms but they are doing nothing to correct the underlying genetic defects.
>
> You can't nurse somebody back from Huntington's (for example).
>
> There is nothing inherently wrong for taking a chemical so long as the benefits outweigh the risks. You body / brain operate on a kazillion chemicals.
>
> Am I dependent on wearing my glasses? Probably, but who cares?
>
> This being said, I (personally) believe in testing the doses and seeing what happens. Don't keep taking 500mg of a medication if 250mg will do just as well.
>
>
> Linakdge
>
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 17:55:44
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 13:46:23
>I dont think every mental health issue that >exists is genetic in every person
True. But for an individual to remain significantly mentally ill despite a normal upbringing, good diet, exercise, and normal level of stressors would indicate to me that there is a genetic predisposition. Especially if there is a family history of the exact same symptoms / disease progression.
Some of the largest scale studies (i.e. through things like 23ANDME) are indicating gene clusters associated with mental illness. Not in every single individual (of course) but on average ... yes.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 17:57:08
In reply to Re: Am I Lou Pildering you guys?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 13:49:30
>How do you mean that?
Not sure what you are asking..
I just mean that Lou was very annoying. I'm not going to literally punch somebody.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on August 1, 2021, at 18:04:16
In reply to Re: Am I Lou Pildering you guys? » Lamdage22, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 17:57:08
What happened to Lou? I have his email address but he does not respond to it. Hope he is okay for real. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 18:14:03
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 14:51:47
>i dont know how commonly, but it is conceivable >that sometimes patients are errenously considered >to have bad genes and that way dont get the most >appropriate treatment for them.
Just because you have bad genes doesn't mean you can't get effective treatment. Bad genes just means you have a genetic predisposition. That genetic load could be mild (in which case a variety of treatments could work) or it could be severe, in which case a patient may be treatment resistant, or require multiple treatments.
For example, variations in sodium channel genes could predispose to neuronal overactivity. Variations in HPA could predispose to elevated cortisol responses to stressors. Variations in BDNF genes could result in impaired synaptic plasticity. Variations in PER2 genes (circadian rhythm genes) could predispose to being out of sync with typical sleep wake cycles. Variations in AANT or TPH2 genes can predispose to altered metabolism of tryptophan. Alterations in BH4 genes can predispose to reduced monoamine synthesis. Alterations in immune related genes can predispose to elevated immune responses and / or inflammatory responses. The list can go on and on.
Bottom line there are a gazillion different variations that, alone likely do little, but in combination can predispose to mental illness.
For example. I CANNOT gain weight. This sounds completely absurd to many people I tell. Even when I eat a typical 'western diet' I cannot gain a pound. What could explain this other than genetics? This is not bragging because I have lost the genetic lottery when it comes to mental health.
Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 23:42:58
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 18:14:03
Well if my boundaries are respected enough so that I am not speaking of abuse anymore for a few years in a row, and I still have symptoms, I am willing to consider genetics.
It hasnt been proven yet like down syndrome etc. Obviously I dont know anything about your genes.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 2, 2021, at 0:11:08
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 23:42:58
It is now the case that to my abuser my every problem in life and with him is genetic. It is being used because it is disempowering. So this notion of genes and its overestimation can be used to cause harm. I am pretty certain Id enjoy life without this BS much more. Completely healthy or not.
Posted by Lamdage22 on August 2, 2021, at 2:33:02
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 2, 2021, at 0:11:08
I don't have a problem with psychiatry as much, but my abuser has successfully used it against me. $$$ I have a problem that they happily allowed that to happen. If the notion that you genes are the culprit is helping you, I have no problem with that. But if it isn't helping me, I have a problem when people think I have to be converted.
I was a bit missionary, sorry for that. What helps is good. I'm not sure that the genes notion does, but I don't know you and thus I shall not judge.
Posted by undopaminergic on August 2, 2021, at 7:14:30
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis? » undopaminergic, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 13:30:26
> >Yes, but when pain is present, painkilling is >rewarding, relatively to baseline, and is one >reason you'd want to use the drug again. I agree >that "addictive" is perhaps not the right term, >but I don't know one that fits better.
>
> Yes, but if you had a painkiller that did not cause reward (in and of itself), then yes one might feel better after taking it (if in pain) but it's not the drug producing the reward. It's simply the desirability of less pain.
>
> For example. If you take an aspirin, and it relieves a headache, you wouldn't bother take a second. However, if you took some morphine for that same headache, you might ask for more 10 minutes later.
>I agree. However, I wonder a) how much the time to onset from taking the drug, and b) prior knowledge of the nature of the drug play a role. If you *thought* aspirin was like morphine, and the speed of onset was the same, would you ask for a second dose? Or would that depend only on whether the pain was gone? Of course, the lack of the secondary psychotropic effects of morphine would probably make a second dose seem less interesting. But morphine, especially the first dose, has adverse effects too, including nausea and drowsiness.
-undopaminergic
Posted by undopaminergic on August 2, 2021, at 7:28:26
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2021, at 18:14:03
>
> For example. I CANNOT gain weight. This sounds completely absurd to many people I tell. Even when I eat a typical 'western diet' I cannot gain a pound. What could explain this other than genetics? This is not bragging because I have lost the genetic lottery when it comes to mental health.
>I'm currently, for some reason, in a condition where I can pretty much eat how much I want without gaining weight. My goal has been 70-75 kgs, and now I seem to be staying 67-68. This is despite antihistamines clozapine and trimipramine.
So, I understand what you mean, but I'm still wondering whether you *could* gain weight if you put your mind to it? I'm sure I could.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on August 2, 2021, at 9:27:28
In reply to Re: GABAergic hypofunction in psychosis?, posted by Lamdage22 on August 1, 2021, at 23:42:58
>Well if my boundaries are respected enough so >that I am not speaking of abuse anymore for a few >years in a row, and I still have symptoms, I am >willing to consider genetics.
I don't know your exact situation. However, it is common for people with mental illness to blame a whole host of factors which would not cause most healthy people to become clinically mentally ill.
>It hasnt been proven yet like down syndrome >etc. Obviously I dont know anything about your >genes.
I would not say that it hasn't been proven. It's that the genetic findings are somewhat diverse. However when you combine the genetic profile of hundreds of thousands of patients with (say) depression, or schizophrenia, or bipolar you DO find genetic differences compared to similar sized samples of patients without depression.
Also there are many studies of twins separated at birth which show a very high rate of concordance. For example, in twins separated at birth with schizophrenia, there is roughly a 50% concordance. This is WAY higher than you would expect by chance. Hence the only explanation is genetics (as the environmental factors are stripped away).
There are genetic influences AND epigenetic influences. Epigentics factors can be altered (to some extent). Although some epigenetic factors become very difficult to alter.
To say that there is no proof of genetics influences in depression is completely false. However, it is false to say that they have found the exact genes that influence everybody's depression.
They are also finding that many of the lines between various mental illnesses are blurred. For example, there is a high degree of overlap between the genes that influence bipolar and schizophrenia. This is no surprise given the overlap in efficacy in treatments with these two disorders. Similarly, there are overlaps in the genes for OCD, ADHD and Autism. Sleep disorders / anxiety disorders and depression also share some common gene clusters. The genetics are starting to prove what we've known for some time.
They can genetically engineer mice that respond to antidepressants. They can also genetically engineer 'treatment resistant' mice that have extra f*ck*d up genes that mean they don't respond to antidepressants.
You see the genetic argument as a negative. You see that suggestion that you might have a few bad genes as a negative. I see this as very liberating. The idea that one day I might be able to analyze me genes to guide treatment, or that they might be able to develop more specific targets, or gene therapy etc. as extremely liberating.
Linkadge
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