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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 37. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jadde on January 16, 2020, at 9:43:41
Hello,
About 3 years ago I started on Nardil out of desperation. For those three years I have been depression free. It was a miracle, I had my life back (dose was 60mg).My current situation is as follows: surgery in November, stop and restart Nardil (after about 4 weeks). I started with 45mg, quickly increased to 60mg with no improvement in (returned) depression. I went up to 75mg where I have been for 2 weeks. Experiencing ALL the side effects but no benefit. Total time on Nardil, 9 weeks.
Im feeling very defeated. Finding it hard to be a patient patient.
My question, what are the chances that Nardil will start working after 9 weeks (most of that time on my old dose of 60mg) ? How long after upping to 75mg should I wait?
Happy to answer any questions about my experience with Nardil
Jade
Posted by greg rizzo on January 16, 2020, at 15:34:06
In reply to Nardil success/restart, posted by Jadde on January 16, 2020, at 9:43:41
Sorry to hear Nardil is giving you problems. I've been on it since 1988 so I too have had my ups and downs I currently take 90 mg & it takes exactly 4 weeks to kivk in again after I've off it. You've probably heard Nardil was much more effe ctive until 2003 when the manufacting rights wewe sold to Pfizer. Pfizer has now discontinued manufacturing it. That's how much they give a damn about us.
-----------------------------------------------
Here is the trial I am undertaking to restore Nardil to it'e pre 2003 efficacy:
Facts we already know:
1.New nardil is too quickly metabolized and excreted mainly due to the acidic nature of the stomach. (or so the literature states). It is theorized that the carnuba wax coating on the old Nardil prevented this from happening. Again this is theorized.
So what can we do about the new lack of efficacy us old-timers notice compared to the old nardil formula.
---------------------------------------
Here's what I'm trying:
1.Encasing nardil tablets in empty enteric cellulose capsules.
2. Taking Bioperine which the literature says increases absorpyion and bioavailability of medication.
3. Taking an antacid hopefully to reduce the acidic nature of the stomach.
4. At Dr. Bob's (Administer of this site)suggestion ,I take invert sugar-- honey) and a sip of alcohol. Dr. Bob's comments--"The best excipients to aid absorption into the small intestine are sugar invert (a.k.a. honey) and ethanol (alcohol). Sugar is quite good, but absorbtion, though high, is relatively slow.
As far as absorption into the small intestine, NOTHING beats alcohol. It's rate and level of absorption by the small intestine is extremely high. Obviously, I don't mean gulp shots of tequila, I'm talking mere drops of alcohol.
Therefore mixing nardil with either honey or alcohol has been much more effective."---------Been trying this trial for only 10 days. Too soon to tell if it will increase efficacy.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on January 16, 2020, at 21:10:37
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by greg rizzo on January 16, 2020, at 15:34:06
Nardil out of all the anti-depression medications, from what i've read is the most effective. I used to think Parnate was, it's potent, but give a fatigue feeling during the day, or a sometime later in the day. Usally high dose of Parnate is good, but some doctors won't go above 80mg, i've seen some people here go up to 120mg, in special cases.
How does it make you feel? is like all of sudden you a feeling of wellbeing and like and enjoying life
Posted by Jadde on January 17, 2020, at 8:48:58
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by greg rizzo on January 16, 2020, at 15:34:06
> Sorry to hear Nardil is giving you problems. I've been on it since 1988 so I too have had my ups and downs I currently take 90 mg & it takes exactly 4 weeks to kivk in again after I've off it. You've probably heard Nardil was much more effe ctive until 2003 when the manufacting rights wewe sold to Pfizer. Pfizer has now discontinued manufacturing it. That's how much they give a damn about us.
> -----------------------------------------------
> Here is the trial I am undertaking to restore Nardil to it'e pre 2003 efficacy:
> Facts we already know:
> 1.New nardil is too quickly metabolized and excreted mainly due to the acidic nature of the stomach. (or so the literature states). It is theorized that the carnuba wax coating on the old Nardil prevented this from happening. Again this is theorized.
> So what can we do about the new lack of efficacy us old-timers notice compared to the old nardil formula.
> ---------------------------------------
> Here's what I'm trying:
> 1.Encasing nardil tablets in empty enteric cellulose capsules.
> 2. Taking Bioperine which the literature says increases absorpyion and bioavailability of medication.
> 3. Taking an antacid hopefully to reduce the acidic nature of the stomach.
> 4. At Dr. Bob's (Administer of this site)suggestion ,I take invert sugar-- honey) and a sip of alcohol. Dr. Bob's comments--"The best excipients to aid absorption into the small intestine are sugar invert (a.k.a. honey) and ethanol (alcohol). Sugar is quite good, but absorbtion, though high, is relatively slow.
> As far as absorption into the small intestine, NOTHING beats alcohol. It's rate and level of absorption by the small intestine is extremely high. Obviously, I don't mean gulp shots of tequila, I'm talking mere drops of alcohol.
> Therefore mixing nardil with either honey or alcohol has been much more effective."---------Been trying this trial for only 10 days. Too soon to tell if it will increase efficacy.
>Hi, youre so lucky that Nardil kicks back in at 4 weeks. At 9 weeks Im pretty frustrated. However, Ive only been at 75mg for 2 1/2 weeks so I guess its not time to panic. Yet.
Looks like you have come up with a lot of ideas as to how to increase Nardils efficiency. I will be checking in to see how you do!
Ps-i do drink Tequila on occasion, and its those times I can actually feel some effect from Nardil
Jade
Posted by Jadde on January 17, 2020, at 8:59:18
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 16, 2020, at 21:10:37
Hello, Nardil gives me a whole lot of energy. I thrive on that. The energy follows a LOT of side effects but they are well worth it (for me). I had a couple of hypomanic periods, but the actual Nardil A/D feeling is better than any thing else Ive tried. Parnate was less effective, at 80mg I became psychotic. You have to be tough and patient to get to the sweet spot with Nardil. The sides can be tough. The A/D effect of Nardil isnt euphoric, its just feeling normal and capable (again, for me). I guess that can feel euphoric after years of crippling depression.
Jade
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:06:56
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart » greg rizzo, posted by Jadde on January 17, 2020, at 8:48:58
The enteric coated capsule withstands stomach acid. If you neutralize the stomach acid with an antacid, it may dissolve in your stomach!
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:10:25
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:06:56
Enteric coating capsules are designed to dissolve in alkaline environments.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:37:32
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:10:25
Plus, I would think about placing all of your excipients into the capsule. Just a thought. But you EITHER (see, I am using your language here) take enteric-coated capsules OR an antacid.
Posted by greg rizzo on January 17, 2020, at 15:27:01
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by rjlockhart37 on January 16, 2020, at 21:10:37
It's only been 10 days I started this combo so it's a little early to swear that this is the panacea we've been hoping for.
I will say this however -I've not had a down day in the 10 days since I started this combo, when previously just about every day sucked.
Sometimes when we start something new our hopes rise just based on the fact that is is new and so are our hopes. I believe this is called 'the placebo effect.'
So only time will prove or disprove my theory and disprove it is a placebo effect.
Posted by greg rizzo on January 17, 2020, at 15:35:57
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:06:56
I want the stomach acid neutralized, thus allowing the Nasdil to reach the intestine where hopefully it will be be absorbed more effectively. I definitely don't want the stomach or stomach acid breaing down the nardil, and thus, excreting it threw the liver.
So goes this thoery I read on the net, and also that expressed by my psych Doctor so we'll wait and see.
Posted by greg rizzo on January 17, 2020, at 15:38:06
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:10:25
Correct, and the stomach by nature is very acidic by contrast
Posted by greg rizzo on January 17, 2020, at 15:39:31
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 12:37:32
Good idea, just hard to find a capsule that large.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 20:27:40
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by greg rizzo on January 17, 2020, at 15:38:06
Yes, but why the antacid? For enteric-coated capsules, stomach acid is a good thing because if it wasn't acidic, the capsule would dissolve.
> Correct, and the stomach by nature is very acidic by contrast
Posted by greg rizzo on January 18, 2020, at 5:13:07
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 17, 2020, at 20:27:40
I don't want the capsule to be brken down and excreted by the liver. Maximun absortion takes place in the intestine according to Dr. Bod (admin. of this site, and others). Definitely some absorbtion takles place in the the stomach, but I want to get maximum absorbtion by the intestines.
You're right--it may be overkill to use both an antacid and enteric capsules. But I don't claim to be an expert so there's definitely some tweaking that mat be necessary.
Since the old nardil used carnuba wax as an outer coating on nardil to increase absorbtion of nardil, that may be worth rxploring also.
Don't have all the answers yet but "giving up" is not in my vocabulary.
It's only been 2 weeks roughly and I am more ready to get out of bed in the am, have more energy & better mood, no depressive, dark moods and thoughts of suicide like I did before.
So we'll see............
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 5:49:40
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by greg rizzo on January 18, 2020, at 5:13:07
I'm not suggesting you should give up. No one should. I think it is not an overkill, but it could totally cancel each other out:
Enteric-coated capsules are designed to withstand the acid in the stomach. The intestine is a more alkaline environment and thats why the capsule will dissolve in your intestine and NOT in your stomach. The more acid in your stomach, the less likely the capsule is goint to dissolve in it. The more alkaline, the more likely it is to dissolve.
Thats how enteric coated capsules manage to not dissolve in your stomach, but in your intestine. By being resistant to acid and dissolvable in alkaline environments like your intestine. The antacid might make it dissolve in your stomach.
I guess it depends on what kind of capsules you have. Some have more of a "time-release" mechanism, but many behave as i described.
I think that capsules can't have the time-release mechanism because they are empty.If your capsules are legitimate it might work better without the antacid.
Maybe someone else can confirm, but I am almost certain.
> I don't want the capsule to be brken down and excreted by the liver. Maximun absortion takes place in the intestine according to Dr. Bod (admin. of this site, and others). Definitely some absorbtion takles place in the the stomach, but I want to get maximum absorbtion by the intestines.
> You're right--it may be overkill to use both an antacid and enteric capsules. But I don't claim to be an expert so there's definitely some tweaking that mat be necessary.
> Since the old nardil used carnuba wax as an outer coating on nardil to increase absorbtion of nardil, that may be worth rxploring also.
> Don't have all the answers yet but "giving up" is not in my vocabulary.
> It's only been 2 weeks roughly and I am more ready to get out of bed in the am, have more energy & better mood, no depressive, dark moods and thoughts of suicide like I did before.
> So we'll see............
Posted by undopaminergic on January 18, 2020, at 6:47:52
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 5:49:40
>
> Maybe someone else can confirm, but I am almost certain.I'm no expert, but you are clearly right that enteric-coated capsules are designed to be resistant to stomach acid. And they are of course designed to dissolve before they get excreted in the faeces.
However, antacids, unless overdosed, do not neutralise (or alkalise) all of the stomach acid. On the other hand, it is pointless to take antacids if you are using enteric-coated capsules.
-undopaminergic
Posted by greg rizzo on January 18, 2020, at 9:54:11
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by undopaminergic on January 18, 2020, at 6:47:52
We'll see won't we? Proof is in the pudding.
So far the puddin' ain't tastin' too bad.What are you doing/working on to make your antidepressant more effective?
Posted by undopaminergic on January 18, 2020, at 9:57:46
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by greg rizzo on January 18, 2020, at 9:54:11
> We'll see won't we? Proof is in the pudding.
> So far the puddin' ain't tastin' too bad.Good luck.
> What are you doing/working on to make your antidepressant more effective?
I'm researching low dose lithium. Another step is to try a higher dose of the antidepressant (trimipramine; Surmontil) that I'm already taking.
-undopaminergic
Posted by greg rizzo on January 18, 2020, at 10:04:59
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart » greg rizzo, posted by undopaminergic on January 18, 2020, at 9:57:46
Good idea. Just had a meeting with my Psych Doc and he'S a strong advocate of augmenting an antidepressant with lithium in certain cases if other methods of augmentation prove unsuccessful for TRD.
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 10:27:47
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart » rjlockhart37, posted by Jadde on January 17, 2020, at 8:59:18
I feel bad about Jadde, we hijacked her thread. I have been taking 225 Lithium for years. I feel it has curbed 70% of suicidal thoughts. @greg: You cant be stopped. But dont spend years, there are many other options!
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 10:28:51
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 10:27:47
I was only trying to stop the antacid, because it doesnt make sense. But i cant:)
Posted by Jadde on January 18, 2020, at 11:12:17
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 10:27:47
> I feel bad about Jadde, we hijacked her thread. I have been taking 225 Lithium for years. I feel it has curbed 70% of suicidal thoughts. @greg: You cant be stopped. But dont spend years, there are many other options!
You did, but thats okay. Sounds like you two have unfinished business. Im sure I hijacked a thread or two back in the day :)
Jade
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 11:14:01
In reply to Nardil success/restart, posted by Jadde on January 16, 2020, at 9:43:41
So how are things?
Posted by Jadde on January 18, 2020, at 11:17:22
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 11:14:01
> So how are things?
Things were great until I stopped Nardil. Doing the waiting game, hoping it will do its magic once more.
Jade
Posted by Lamdage22 on January 18, 2020, at 11:21:44
In reply to Re: Nardil success/restart, posted by Jadde on January 18, 2020, at 11:17:22
How long were you in remission? Nardil was a very defining experience for me. In a good and in a bad way. I became really angry about stuff.
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