![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 125. Go back in thread:
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 19:10:28
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Hello321, posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 15:01:47
Tomatgeus, thank you for taking the time to write all that. I thought you madeca lot of good points. I don't think of myself as against someone seeking psychiatric meds. We should have all the options we can get. This, as you've suggested is where today's tt payment of mental health conditions comes up short. For the most part, only one side of the treatment story is told. If they were really in the business of helping, they'd do much more than briefly mention something like Fish Oil being good good for brain function.
And I do believe there is much more understanding of what kind of lifestyles can be detrimental for brain and body function than is made known. We know the basics, caffeine can cause anxiety. Drinking too much alcohol can cause depression. Debatable, but still. Smoking is just bad for everything. And so on... But I've really bought into the information written about in the books I mentioned in earlier posts, Grain Brain and Brain Maker. Yet the US Government tells us most of our calories should be coming from grains. And, if i remember correctly, they subsidize the grain industry. Eating vegetables like brocvoli and carrots would be much healthier sources of nutrients than bread. Mostly because bread, even whole grains, just convert to sugar during digestion. Some grains turn into sugar more slowly, but the they still spike blood sugar. This is unhealthy for the body, as well as the brain.
I feel as long as there continues to be a top down approach with treating mental illness, we won't get any further than ever gotten. I believe that at best, the chemicals that are used only treat the end result of much deeper problems in our brains and bodies. But this is the way it has been for over half a century. And there doesn't seem to be an end in sight.
Posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Hello321, posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 15:01:47
When in the depths of depression, I have gone to the gym and swum (?) for an hour, then got out of the pool and started crying, went home, laid in bed for hours, planning suicide. When not depressed, I swim and lift weights and take long walks. I love exercising, but it's never kept me from getting depressed.
Diet - Given how much dispute there is about what constitutes a healthy diet, who can say? I don't eat much grain, not for health reasons, just don't much like it. I never eat sweets, again, don't much like them. Eat my fruits and veggies. Not much fat - but you've completely forgotten about protein, which humans have always eaten (more so than fats, since they hunted animals that were fairly lean). I eat a lot of protein, including proteins that are high in fat, like eggs. Hasn't kept me from sinking into depression. When depressed, I barely eat at all.
I also see a therapist. I love him and he's a great therapist, but doesn't keep me from getting depressed. DBT helps me cope with depression and, especially, cope with suicidal thoughts, but it doesn't prevent episodes of severe depression.
I meditate, stop and cry and drag myself to bed when I'm depressed. When I'm not depressed, I love meditating.
I have never had a psych med cause life-threatening symptoms (unless you can call rapid weight gain life threatening). Certainly, I don't see how they can ruin the lives of others. Suicide can, but I'm suicidal when psych meds don't work or I'm not taking them. Psych meds have never made me feel suicidal themselves.
I once spent nearly two months in bed, nearly catatonic from depression. A month in a psych hospital. After a washout from other meds, I started on parnate and, within two days, I was up riding the ward's stationary bicycle and doing yoga in the visiting room. Had side effects - insomnia and postural hypotension - hardy life-threatening. After a year or so, parnate didn't hold me, though the depressive episodes I've had since starting do not include virtual catatonia, so that's an improvement.
So I can't agree that depression can be cured by diet, exercise, even meditation, yoga and therapy. I think these can counter mild, situational depressions. But not major depression.
Posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 20:12:55
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Tomatheus, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 19:10:28
Function of whole grains needed in one's diet. Phillipa
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 20:31:11
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
I try to look at all sides. I try to understand the possibilities of all sides. Then there are those who say since something didn't affect them a certain way as someone else else describes, they deny any possibility to it.
Effexor had terrible effects on me. I've experienced some seemingly permanent effects from certain psychiatric treatments, that I've gone into detail about at times on psychobabble, but will avoid here because I know it will wreck any credibility I might have left with some. But this doesn't mean I tell someone im not buying it when they tell me something like "Effexor saved their life".
Type in the name of any psychiatric treatment on Google and put " ruined my life" and many results with people describing their experiences will come up. If those who are pro psychiatry want to discredit the experience of anyone who have suffered at the hands of psychiatry, then why don't these same pro psychiatry people also deserve to be discredited when they speak out?
Effexor didn't help me, and actually made me worse. Therefore I can't get behind any suggestion it could actually benefit anyone. See how that sounds?
But with "Grain Brain", I don't suggest it as a " Be all, end all". Though it might be for some people. But I do see how it might could be very beneficial. And it also proposes it could be a good idea to cut out most fruits in favor of vegetables, because of the sugar content in fruits. That sweet fruits weren't abundant in the diet of our ancestors that our genes developed from.
Then there is the Orthomolecular Therapy that has been shown to be very beneficial. I'd like to look into it. And if I do try it. And if it doesn't help me. I don't think I'll be closing my mind off to the possibility of it helping someone else. Isn't that one of the main points in osychiatry, that we are all different and require different approaches for our treatment?
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 20:55:20
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health Grains » Hello321, posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 20:12:55
> Function of whole grains needed in one's diet. Phillipa
>
> http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/whole-grains/art-20047826?pg=1One can get all the nutrients they need without ever eating any kind of grain. I think the main problem with eating grains is that they are full of carbohydrates. Carbohydrates turn to sugar during digestion. Increasing blood sugar much higher than a meal like broccoli with eggs cooked in grass fed butter.
Here's another point of view of the negative effects of consuming grains.
http://wellnessmama.com/575/problem-with-grains/But the effects of grains on our body and brain are thoroughly described in Grain Brain.
Something else that Grain Brain goes in depth about is improving gut bacteria with foods like kefir and sauerkraut. But it's a book. There's a lot to it that I just can't type all on psychobabble.
Posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 22:31:28
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Tomatheus, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 19:10:28
Thank you for your reply, Hello321. The information that you've provided in this thread about diet, particularly what you've written regarding grains and carbohydrates, is definitely interesting, and I most certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that making dietary changes might lead to improved mental health in a many individuals, including some with mental health conditions. I personally see the causes of mental health conditions as being complex and varied, and I think that in some cases, you might be right that what psychiatric medications treat could be the end result of deeper problems in our brains and bodies. In other cases, though, I think that even though psychiatric medications might be treating certain downstream biological consequences of bigger things that are happening in our bodies, these biological consequences might not be that far downstream.
I mentioned the monoamine oxidase A enzyme in my last post, citing a study that had found a significant tendency toward elevated levels of the enzyme in the brains of those with major depressive disorder. If it is indeed the case that MAO-A levels are elevated in clinically depressed patients, then the question must be asked as to what causes the enzyme to be at a high level. Variants of the MAO-A gene might be a possibility in some cases, but I think that another possibility could be that elevated levels of certain building blocks of the enzyme, namely copper, might be contributing to the high MAO-A levels. A small study (Salustri et al., 2010) found copper levels and "free" copper levels to be elevated in depressed patients relative to controls, and when the study that found MAO-A levels to be elevated in the brains of depressed patients is looked at alongside findings of older studies that found MAO-B levels to be elevated in blood platelets of depressed patients, an argument can be made that perhaps it is copper driving up MAO levels, since levels of both copper-containing MAO levels have been found to be elevated in depressed patients. So then, if excesses of copper are driving up MAO levels, which might possibly contribute to depressive illness, the possible cause of the copper excesses would then need to be looked at. My best guess as to what might be causing copper and/or "free" copper levels to be elevated in some depressed patients is that some sorts of chronic infections might be causing this, perhaps different infections in different individuals, but I'm basically just speculating and hypothesizing about this more than anything else right now.
At any rate, I think that regardless as to what might cause mental health conditions and regardless as to how varied the causes of such conditions might be in different individuals, trying different approaches to treatment when the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth-line approaches that have been tried didn't produce any kind of positive results in the long run makes a lot of sense. That's basically what I'm doing now with the orthomolecular approach that I'm currently utilizing along with following healthier habits and applying psychological self-help strategies, and it sounds like that's also basically what you've been doing with the dietary modifications that you've been trying out. Maybe at some point I'll reach the conclusion that the approaches that I'm currently utilizing also aren't going to be helpful in the long run, and if that occurs, I'd like to hope that I'll try yet another different approach to treatment, but I think that when certain approaches to treatment do not produce positive results over and over again, it then becomes time to try something different.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCE
Salustri, C., Squitti, R, Zappasodi, F., Ventriglia, M., Bevacqua, M.G., Fontana, M., et al. (2010). Oxidative stress and brain glutamate-mediated excitability in depressed patients. Journal of Affective Disorders, 127, 321-325. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20547423
Posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 23:40:51
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
Thank you for your reply, Baseball55. I think that without question, the experiences that you've had with various approaches to treating your depression are absolutely valid, and I most certainly think it's a good thing that you've been able to identify which approaches to managing your condition seem to be the most helpful and which approaches don't seem to be so helpful. As I said earlier in this thread, I think that there's a lot of variability in how different individuals with mental health conditions respond to some of the various treatment approaches that I mentioned in my other post, and I do think that some of the treatment approaches that I mentioned have more evidence to support their use than some of the other approaches that I mentioned.
In some ways, what you've written about exercise, healthy dietary choices, and meditation not being enough to prevent you from getting depressed (along with what you wrote about therapy not being enough to prevent episodes of severe depression, despite the fact that it helps you to cope with suicidal thinking and other depressive symptoms) sounds like it's similar to what I wrote about having too much difficulty applying psychological self-help strategies and making the healthiest of lifestyle choices when the biological aspects associated with my mental health condition aren't being addressed in an effective way. For me, exercise, talk therapies, and other treatment interventions that don't have certain direct biological effects don't seem to put a noticeable enough dent in any of my symptoms -- not in my affective symptoms, and not in my schizophrenia-spectrum symptoms -- when my condition isn't being managed with interventions that effectively target the biological aspects of it more directly. And like you, when my symptoms become rather intense, I try to focus what little brain power I have on trying to eat whatever it is that I can eat instead of on making the healthiest dietary choices.
I do, however, think that when looking at what treatment interventions might be helpful for individuals with mental health conditions more globally, paying attention to the treatment interventions that others report being helpful and to what scientific studies have to say about the efficacy of various treatment approaches can help us to understand which treatment approaches people with mental health conditions as a whole might find beneficial, even if we ourselves don't necessarily find them to be so beneficial. When looking at the various treatment interventions that I listed in my earlier post to this thread, I think that there's a great deal of variability in the amount of evidence that there is to support the use of these interventions. Psychiatric medications, for instance, are clearly evidence-based treatments, as are some other interventions, such as talk therapies and exercise (at least for certain conditions). For the most part, I don't think that any of the interventions that I mentioned in my earlier post are cures, although it's possible that a few of them (like vitamin D3, if levels of the vitamin are low, and if low levels of the vitamin do contribute to clinical depression) might be. However, with respect to major depressive disorder, although I think it's likely that many patients with the disorder won't respond to some or even all of the treatments, I do think that some treatment interventions -- especially talk therapies and also exercise, to what's probably a lesser extent -- have demonstrated efficacy in scientific studies. Some of the other treatment interventions that I mentioned aren't so much what I'd call evidence-based practices for major depressive disorder, but I think that there are some individuals with the disorder who might find the interventions to be helpful.
Tomatheus
Posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 0:35:05
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
> When in the depths of depression, I have gone to the gym and swum (?) for an hour, then got out of the pool and started crying, went home, laid in bed for hours, planning suicide. [...]
Your post really rings true for me and you put it so well.
I used to take walks when in pretty bad depression. It took the edge off a bit, for the time I was walking, then shortly after getting home it was just as bad. I also noticed I would make poor decisions about the time and place to walk, thus risking my personal safety. I was suicidal anyway so I didn't really have much concern about safety :-(
I read a couple of books about how to change your mood, forget the exact author and titles, but the advice boiled down to "take a 10 minute walk" as a mood lifter. Seriously, this author stretched that out into two books. So I figured I needed to take shorter walks maybe, instead of going to the point of near exhaustion. I took the 10 minute walk, felt slightly better for maybe an hour. So what was I supposed to do, take a 10 minute walk every hour all day long?
Also tried many arbitrary diets that made health claims. Perhaps they help as much as taking up any challenging activity helps, which is only in giving you a sense of achievement.
I'll take the pills (that actually do help), thanks.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 0:52:57
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » baseball55, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 0:35:05
> > When in the depths of depression, I have gone to the gym and swum (?) for an hour, then got out of the pool and started crying, went home, laid in bed for hours, planning suicide. [...]
>
> Your post really rings true for me and you put it so well.
>
> I used to take walks when in pretty bad depression. It took the edge off a bit, for the time I was walking, then shortly after getting home it was just as bad. I also noticed I would make poor decisions about the time and place to walk, thus risking my personal safety. I was suicidal anyway so I didn't really have much concern about safety :-(
>
> I read a couple of books about how to change your mood, forget the exact author and titles, but the advice boiled down to "take a 10 minute walk" as a mood lifter. Seriously, this author stretched that out into two books. So I figured I needed to take shorter walks maybe, instead of going to the point of near exhaustion. I took the 10 minute walk, felt slightly better for maybe an hour. So what was I supposed to do, take a 10 minute walk every hour all day long?
>
> Also tried many arbitrary diets that made health claims. Perhaps they help as much as taking up any challenging activity helps, which is only in giving you a sense of achievement.
>
> I'll take the pills (that actually do help), thanks.Exercising actually does help me. But as I've said, I don't deny that the pills have actually helped others, even though they havent helped me. You guys are making it more and more obvious that you 100% deserve the stigma that you experience by closing off any suggestion that there's a world of help beyond more pills. You're being just as closed minded as someone who says it's all in your head, pills don't work, that you just need willpower. The next time you experience any negativity because of the stigma exists, remember this, please. The irony blows my mind.
Goodnight.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 1:10:42
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 0:52:57
I typed in "diet cured my depression" and this came right up.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/2f6eeu/how_i_cured_16_years_of_severe_depression_and/
This person seems to have had an amazing experience after making big changes in her diet.
Posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » baseball55, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 20:31:11
> I try to look at all sides. I try to understand the possibilities of all sides. [...]
I think the argument here is that all treatments (including conventional and alternative) work, they just work for different people. If so, then it would make sense to take a trial-and-error approach, and it would not make sense to criticize anyone else's choices. If Lou says the advice from his vision of the Rider on the white horse cured him, that's right for him. If Hello321 says Grain Brain cured them, that's right for them. If others say that psych med combos keep them functional, that's right for them.
As it turns out though, it's more difficult than you might think to tell if a treatment works. Here is a good summary of ways people can be fooled. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
It's also pretty easy to make up a treatment. You just come up with a plausible sounding argument and add some testimonials. If you want to appeal to the more science-minded folks, you can claim it is "evidence-based" and add reference notes to some studies that, on closer inspection, turn out to be of poor quality or irrelevant to the question of whether the treatment works on humans.
Nobody has time to try every treatment under the sun. Some of them (such as special diets and supplement regimens) take months and hundreds of dollars to try. Given the human tendency to be poor at judging whether a treatment works or not, it's a better use of time to try approaches with better evidence first. FDA approval is a good low water mark.
Once you get into the non-FDA-approved stuff, it's very unlikely that the treatment has been tested on humans in controlled experiments. Testimonials and self-experimentation are much poorer evidence than controlled experiments.
Posted by SLS on April 19, 2016, at 5:49:48
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 6:54:40
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
> > I try to look at all sides. I try to understand the possibilities of all sides. [...]
>
> I think the argument here is that all treatments (including conventional and alternative) work, they just work for different people. If so, then it would make sense to take a trial-and-error approach, and it would not make sense to criticize anyone else's choices. If Lou says the advice from his vision of the Rider on the white horse cured him, that's right for him. If Hello321 says Grain Brain cured them, that's right for them. If others say that psych med combos keep them functional, that's right for them.
>
> As it turns out though, it's more difficult than you might think to tell if a treatment works. Here is a good summary of ways people can be fooled. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
>
> It's also pretty easy to make up a treatment. You just come up with a plausible sounding argument and add some testimonials. If you want to appeal to the more science-minded folks, you can claim it is "evidence-based" and add reference notes to some studies that, on closer inspection, turn out to be of poor quality or irrelevant to the question of whether the treatment works on humans.
>
> Nobody has time to try every treatment under the sun. Some of them (such as special diets and supplement regimens) take months and hundreds of dollars to try. Given the human tendency to be poor at judging whether a treatment works or not, it's a better use of time to try approaches with better evidence first. FDA approval is a good low water mark.
>
> Once you get into the non-FDA-approved stuff, it's very unlikely that the treatment has been tested on humans in controlled experiments. Testimonials and self-experimentation are much poorer evidence than controlled experiments.
Exactly. Just wanted to make sure thecword was getting out.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:02:12
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 6:54:40
But to the last part, I learned my lesson with waiting for the FDA to let me know what I should and shouldn't be doing to help myself.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:34:49
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:02:12
I'm sorry but it's just how I feel. People come home from the doctor feeling hopeless sometimes, because of what ever news they did or didn't get. And I see this as unnecessary because there's often more that can be done than what ever treatment is given from the doctor. Nobody cares about you or your well-being than yourself. Nobody should be putting in more effort to feel better than yourself. (Not directed at you). And I feel that reading research articles on sites like pubmed about any topic that I run across that interests me has been a big help. It has made it clear to me that there's much more knowledge available than what is presented to the public. We get a dumbed down version of it that actually is bad for us in some cases. Today's leading science/medical knowledge can take decades before it makes its way to the public in the form of treatment for a particular condition. Or just in the form of advice, like what a healthy diet should generally consist of. The Food Pyramid, or today's "MyPlate" I think it's called is downright misleading with how much it supports eating more bread, pasta, oats, etc...
This is why I've talked about knowledge being power. The knowledge that could give us more options to improve our lives isnt very difficult to access. But I think lack of desire and motivation often hold people back. This, along anxiety that can come along with trying to take full control of ones treatment for their condition. I see the things like the white coats that doctors wear as being calming for people.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 8:42:02
In reply to I'm sorry, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:34:49
.
Posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 9:33:56
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
Tabitha you last two responses are just what I personally needed to hear. Thank you so much Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:10:05
In reply to Re: Science. » SLS, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 14:23:19
Another "enlightened" preacher:)
PB seems to create them somehow.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:19:11
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:10:05
America just really loves doctors that write books where they think they have the cure for all the evils in the world.
And Grain Brain sounds exactly like that.
Sensation sells.
If you count on that for your recovery, i cant stop you.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:27:32
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:19:11
These books seem like they are all written by the same person.
Think about it.
How many people eat grains? How many people are depressed? Do you notice something? Nutrition, for most people is not the reason why they are depressed. As simple as that. I used to buy those books, too. Not anymore. The less spiritual chitchat i consume, the better i can think.
Maybe i should write a book:)
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:27:32
These books are a plague that seems to preferably hit America.
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 13:17:41
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
I will give you that maybe nutrition and exercise are the last 10-15% towards complete remission.
They are not however a cure-all.
Posted by J Kelly on April 19, 2016, at 13:25:39
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:27:32
>
> Maybe i should write a book:)
>Lamdage you make me lol (not to make light of this thread)
Jade
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 13:47:45
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
> These books are a plague that seems to preferably hit America.
Come on Lamdage, at least present some info that would suggest I'm as "off my rocker" as you suggest.
While after a short search, I didn't come up with "mainstream" sources of information that show a possible link between carbohydrates and depression. Probably because I'm not in the mood to look up a lot of things right now...
...Here are some articles showing a link between excessive carb consumption and other brain disorders.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082091http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/
http://www.alzheimers.net/2013-11-04/do-carbs-and-gluten-cause-alzheimers/
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/do-carbs-cause-alzheimers
I'm not trying to present any idea that I'm 100% correct. But I'm trying to show that the typical diet we rat might just contribute/cause mental health problems.
I want to know just why many people
start thinking "crazy conspiracy theorist" every time something outside general public opinion is brought up? We call people "sheep" when they only buy into what the authorities tell them, unless we also buy into it.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 13:50:43
In reply to Re: Science., posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:28:07
> These books are a plague that seems to preferably hit America.
Come on Lamdage, at least present some info that would suggest I'm as "off my rocker" as you suggest.
While after a short search, I didn't come up with "mainstream" sources of information that show a possible link between carbohydrates and depression. Probably because I'm not in the mood to look up a lot of things right now...
...Here are some articles showing a link between excessive carb consumption and other brain disorders.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082091http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/
http://www.alzheimers.net/2013-11-04/do-carbs-and-gluten-cause-alzheimers/
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/do-carbs-cause-alzheimers
I'm not trying to present any idea that I'm 100% correct. But I'm trying to show that the typical diet we rat might just contribute/cause mental health problems.
I want to know just why many people
start thinking "crazy conspiracy theorist" every time something outside general public opinion is brought up? We call people "sheep" when they only buy into what the authorities tell them, unless we also buy into it.
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