![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 125. Go back in thread:
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 11:30:08
In reply to Relax, posted by Lamdage22 on April 18, 2016, at 11:06:45
> Its so easy to see conspiracies everywhere. I have been there myself.
>
>What conspiracies is someone seeing? Are you referring to me suggesting there's more help out there than pills? That pills can cause severe harm? Please, educate yourself. I've realized today more than ever that knowledge is power. Because of this I'm able to get myself up and go for a walk in the park on such a nice day today. If you know better than me, where's your energy? Where's your motivation? Until a few weeks ago when I had to stop testing out a new diet because of stomach problems, I had the desire and motivation to almost completely change my diet. Knowledge that there's more help out there than pills, that the typical American way of life can be very damaging to ones health is what gives me motivation.
Anyways, I'm headed to the track at my local park for a bit of exercise. I will TTYL.
Posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 11:52:28
In reply to Re: Relax, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 11:30:08
So not just psychiatric meds but also meds for weight reduction? In your case. Why unless eating too much did you need them. And then there is surgery that is even more dangerous. Cholesterol meds are dangerous hence won't take them and don't need them. At age 70 ride 6 miles almost daily on bike up and down hills, walk the dogs. So how come I'm anxious. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 12:46:06
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:32:54
> > > Anyone else on here we should consider banning because their message goes against us in our search for more pills? I don't wanna eat better or do anything else that might make my life better, I want more pills! Something with a neat, scientific sounding name would be preferable. They say exercise could help improve mood, but the only way I'm doing that is if "science" could like, put exercise in a pill for me. And anyone who realizes their life was screwed by taking these pills, well, let's pretend their experience never happened because it might impede us on our search for more pills!
> >
> > Did pills ever work for you? If not, have you ever entertained the notion that you don't have an illness that pills are designed to treat?
> >
> > Mr. Pilder exaggerates and overgeneralizes and goes out of his way to scare people using misinformation and disinformation, as is often presented by book-writing, cherry-picking charlatans who refuse to use science as a method of helping people. Which antidepressants do you feel have never greatly improved someone's affective disorder? By the way, as much as eating better and exercising (anaerobic and aerobic) more has undoubtedly improved my overall health, they haven't improved in anyway my crippling bipolar depression. I suppose I should rail against Nautilus and Nordic Track as being hoaxes.
> >
> > Pills work.
> >
> >
> At the least Lou doesn't ignore the fact that there's more out there that can help than just pills.Name one person here who does. Your assertion is insulting.
> I know what treatment resistance feels like. And because of it, my mind has been opened to the fact that there are so many possibilities out there, that have nothing to do with taking another pill.
Me, too. What do you really know about me and my 34 years of treatment history? Very little. Too little to include me in your insulting remarks.
> Possibilities that "science" backs. Ways that can help that are much less likely to be damaging than another pill. Sure, this is a medication forum. But when you have sick people coming here for help, who only know about the world of psychiatric treatments, and are seeking help from others who only point them to more psychiatric meds, they are closed off from so much more. I read about science often. I don't just read magazine articles about science. I like to get into the details as much as possible. I dont claim to know everything, but neither do the "experts". And what many do, is avoid the details as much as possible. What do we get? More pain and suffering. More people who get stuck.
You remain ignorant (not meant as a pejorative) to the collective experiences of those who post here. I suspect you are also ignorant of just how much the scientists already know. Do you think that science hasn't already looked at exercise and diet scientifically as treatments or adjunct therapeutics for depression?
> There is no science behind any idea that an antidepressant corrects any dysfunction in the brain.More ignorance (not meant as a pejorative).
Because of your ignorance, I must truncate any opining I had planned to do.
I hope that my assertion of your ignorance doesn't insult you any more than your assertions of mine.
- Scott
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 14:00:49
In reply to Re: Relax » Hello321, posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 11:52:28
Phillipa, I didn't change my diet for weight reduction. I changed it in an attempt to benefit my overall well-being, and especially my emotional well-being. I've known a pharmacist at a compounding
pharmacy who is very into improving health in natural ways. Occasionally we would talk about ways I can get to feeling better, and he would often focusing on diet. How to eat. He would say to stop eating certain things. And I'd think, "that's a big part of my regular diet, it would be too hard". Then a couple of months ago it just hit me, if I'm not " putting good in", why should I expect good out? I had been thinking I eat decent enough. But now I realize, what if eating decent isn't good enough. I mean, if I'm eating decent, why do I feel so crappy? So I set out to try educating myself on just how ones diet affects their well-being. How it affects their brain. I still eat far from perfect, but I'm sure my diet is benefitting me far more than the way I was eating a couple of months ago.Some months ago my mindset about foods started to change a bit after I watched this video that I've posted on babble in the past.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
Then I found this video a few weeks later and it really caught my eye:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ceFyF9px20Y
He's, they're mainly about the terrible effects sugar has on the body. And how it dysrupts natural processes in our body, leading to diabetes. To obesity. To just bad health in general, and not really about mental health.
But I started getting really interested. Reading more articles on sugar. Then I stumbled upon the book "Grain Brain" at Barnes & Noble, that details the negative effects of our carbohydrate filled diets on our mental health. It focuses a lot on sugar and grains. All carbs are sugar. Some may digest slower than others, like white rice compared to brown rice. But they still affect our brain like sugar.
I could type all day on this, but Grain Brain makes the case that humans thousands of years ago survived mostly on fat, meat, and greens. And that today's carb rich diet, low fat diet goes against how our ancestors genes adapted. Leading to today's health problems. Sure there is much debate in anything that's far from the norm. We have it put into our minds that fats, especially saturated fats like in beef and milk, are bad. But our brains are made mostly of fat. Our brains thrive on a high healthy fat diet. And there seems to much debate about whether most types of fat are good. But I do believe it's fully agreed on that artificial trans fats are bad.
Anyways, like I said, there is a lot of debate about things like this. And I'd recommend reading "Grain Brain" and another book called "Brain Maker". Grain Brain was a big seller when it came out and is really interesting to me. But like it's said, knowledge is power. Just educate yourself. Try to gain the knowledge, the power, to improve your life and put it to good use. The more I understand the details on how our diet affects our well-being, the more not motivated I get to improve it.
We hear Omega 3 fats in wild fish like salmon can improve our brain function. But there's much more in our diet that can be adjusted to improve our brain function. Improved brain function of course leads to better mental health.
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 14:23:19
In reply to Re: Science. » Hello321, posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 12:46:06
> > > Mr. Pilder exaggerates and ove
> You remain ignorant (not meant as a pejorative) to the collective experiences of those who post here. I suspect you are also ignorant of just how much the scientists already know. Do you think that science hasn't already looked at exercise and diet scientifically as treatments or adjunct therapeutics for depression?
>
> > There is no science behind any idea that an antidepressant corrects any dysfunction in the brain.
>
> More ignorance (not meant as a pejorative).
>
> Because of your ignorance, I must truncate any opining I had planned to do.
>
> I hope that my assertion of your ignorance doesn't insult you any more than your assertions of mine.
>
>
> - ScottI am I deed ignorant of the pretty much wll of yhe life experiences of of Users on psychobabble. But I'm not ignorant of the fact that on mental health treatment forums like this, the typical thinking is "If only we could find the right pill". There is very little talk about how our diet affects our brain function and therefore our mental health. Even when there is so much garbage is in the diet of most people.
Scott, I'm aware that scientific knowledge about the brain is continuously advancing. But how long will it take for today's leading knowledge to be put into regular clinical use? Today we are still focusing on artificial ways to increase certain neurotransmitters, just like we're when the first MAOI came out. The main advantage reuptake inhibitors have is they lack the possibility of death if one were to eat the wrong food while taking them. Many even agree old MAOI's help better than newer reuptake inhibitors.
Now, if it is easier for you to sit and wait for the best science to eventually be put into good use and for it to benefit you, that it is too difficult for you to think out of box that psychiatry stays in and put more focus on other areas of your life that can be improved, that may just lead to your mental health improving, then I really am sorry.
If one keeps doing what they've always done, they will always what they've always gotten. Think beyond meds. Sit back and look at what can be improved about your lifestyle. Rarely is achieving the best things in life easy to achieve, but it sure is worth it. Just do your best. Often doing your best is far removed from ones daily life. And help others do their best. Knowledge is power. Gaining knowledge can give you the power to achieve your best. Michael Jordan did his best when he was a less experienced, less knowledgeable player. But as he gained knowledge of the game, his best became even better.
Posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 15:01:47
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 10:32:54
Hello321,
There is a lot that you've written here that I quite strongly agree with. I think that you're absolutely right that there are a number of non-pill-based treatment interventions, some of which are evidence based, that people with mental health conditions find helpful when it comes to reducing symptoms, minimizing the impact of symptoms, improving functional outcomes, promoting overall health, or otherwise living as well as possible despite having a mental health condition. Helpful interventions for a mental health condition could include pills (both pharmaceuticals and dietary supplements), talk therapies, psychological self-help interventions, peer support, exercise, dietary modifications, making other choices that promote improved overall health, meditation, brain-training exercises, and support from friends and family members. And this list that I've put together is far from complete. Clearly, not everybody benefits from all of the treatment interventions that I've listed. There is a great deal of variability in how different individuals with mental health conditions respond to each treatment intervention that I identified, and I think that the exact combination of treatment interventions that will be most effective in helping to manage a mental health condition will likely be quite different not only from one individual to the next but also within the same individual as both symptoms and circumstances change.
Speaking for myself, I do take pills, and at this point in time, all of them are dietary supplements. I follow an orthomolecular-based treatment protocol, and I consider this to be the foundation of my treatment. As far as pharmaceuticals are concerned, I consider that to be an approach to treatment that I put a great deal of time and effort into in hopes that one or more medications would contribute positively to my long-term mental well being. Unfortunately, that hasn't seemed to happen, and I've moved on to try other approaches to treatment that do stand at least a chance of improving my long-term mental well being and helping me to achieve my goal of being as close to the person that I'd like to be as possible. As I've said, following an orthomolecular-based approach to reducing the symptoms of my mental health condition is the foundation of my treatment at this point in time. Without this approach, my symptoms are too severe for me to be able to make much use of the benefits of other treatment interventions. In my case, addressing the biological components of my mental health condition as they were identified by testing that was done at an orthomolecular treatment center is absolutely necessary to make any meaningful application of psychological self-help strategies and healthy lifestyle choices possible. But the orthomolecular-based treatment protocol that I follow is still only the foundation of my treatment. It's most certainly not the only aspect of my treatment. I think that when the capacity to take meaningful action toward living a healthy lifestyle, toward applying psychological coping mechanisms and other psychological strategies, and toward achieving some of the bigger goals we have in life is there, we ought to do all of these things to the fullest extent possible. To me, this is what recovering from a mental health condition is all about. Relieving symptoms is a first step, but once there is an adequate amount of symptom relief, applying the knowledge that we've gained about psychology, general health, and other aspects of living and taking action to live our lives in a way that's as consistent as possible with our values and ideals is essential. Pills, if effective, should boost our chances of doing these things, but they're not going to actually do the work for us.
I also think that those of us with mental health conditions have some valid reasons to be dissatisfied with the mental health system and should be taking action to improve it. One thing that journalist Robert Whitaker (2010) pointed out in his book "Anatomy of an Epidemic" that greatly concerns me is that more Americans that ever before seem to be disabled due to a mental health condition, at least judging from the Social Security Administration reports that Whitaker cited in his book. Now, I'm not saying that modern mental health treatments aren't effective for anybody, but the fact that the number of Americans receiving disability benefits for reasons related to mental health is higher than it's ever been, despite the fact that more mental health treatments are available and also more accessible than ever before, calls into question just how effective medications, talk therapies, and other mental health treatments that are commonly used actually are. I tend not to agree with the idea that Whitaker seemed to put forward, which suggests that medication use is generally causing an overall worsening in the outcomes of those living with mental health conditions. In some cases, yes, I do think that medication use is leading to worse outcomes, but there are other factors to consider.
One such factor is the lack of improved of efficacy of the first-line medication treatments that are used for mood disorders today over the first-line medications that were used for the same conditions 40 years ago. Lithium has basically been replaced as a first-line medication treatment for bipolar disorder by anticonvulsants and antipsychotics, even though lithium is still generally regarded as being more effective than antipsychotics and also as effective or more effective than anticonvlusants (Bowden, 2000). Evidence seems to suggest that SSRI antidepressants are about as effective as in the treatment of unipolar depression as tricyclic antidepressants are, although there are some data to suggest that the tricyclics might be more effective in the inpatient treatment of unipolar depression (Anderson, 2000). As far as monoamine oxidase inhibitors are concerned, I'm not sure about the extent to which they've been compared with SSRIs as far as efficacy is concerned, but the fact that moclobemide (a reversible monoamine oxidase A inhibitor) has been found to be somewhat less effective than Nardil and Parnate despite being comparable to the SSRIs as far as efficacy is concerned (Lotufo-Neto et al., 1999) would point toward the possibility that the MAOIs might be more effective than SSRIs. Or at least they might have been more effective, before their formulations were changed. Now, with some anecdotal reports having come in suggesting that the reformulated version of Nardil might be less effective and/or less tolerable for some individuals than the original version was, and with one case report (Malen, 1992) suggesting that the current version of Parnate also might not perform as well as the original version of the medication, it's not even clear if Nardil and Parnate are as effective as they used to be. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration, in my opinion, has not taken the complaints from those who've taken Nardil seriously enough, just as they didn't take the complaints about a generic version of Wellbutrin seriously enough when they first started coming in. Utlimately, though, the FDA did issue statements indicating that some generic versions of Wellbutrin are indeed not therapeutically equivalent to the brand-name version of the medication.
What I'm trying to get at with the information that I'm putting out here is that there are a number of legitimate reasons to be dissatisfied with the mental health system as it exists currently. Although many are helped to a significant degree by the mental health treatments that are currently available, some are not helped by these treatments, and some even experience a deterioration in their condition due to some treatments that are used. When you say things like "we ignore that lives have been ruined by these chemicals," and "[w]e tell ourselves there's no way for these chemicals to cause someone to feel and possibly act homicidal," I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "we," because I acknowledge that psychiatric medications have affected some individuals who've taken them in detrimental ways, including by contributing to increased homicidal thinking and actions in what's probably a small minority of cases. But I think that you're right that the detrimental effects of psychiatric medications and all treatments used in medicine shouldn't be ignored.
Where I think you're wrong is in your statement that "[t]here is no science behind any idea that an antidepressant corrects any dysfunction in the brain." Monoamine oxidase A levels have been found to be, on average, 34 percent higher in the brains of patients with major depressive disorder in comparison to the brains of healthy control participants (Meyer et al., 2006). Monoamine oxidase inhibiting antidepressants have clearly demonstrated an ability to inhibit the MAO-A enzyme, so to state that there is no science behind the idea that any antidepressant can "correct" any chemical dysfunction in the brain is inaccurate. Just because many who identify as being part of the anti-psychiatry movement say that something is true doesn't mean that it is. Those who consider themselves to be part of the anti-psychiatry movement sometimes make some valid critiques of psychiatry, and I think that those critiques ought to be taken seriously and ought to lead to change wherever they can. However, if many with ideas that might be considered to be critical of psychiatry continue to say that mental health conditions are never in any way biological, that psychiatric medications are never beneficial to those who take them, that mental illness doesn't exist, or that other blatant inaccuracies ought to be regarded as true, they're only going to hurt the credibility of those who make critiques of psychiatry that actually are valid.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCES
Anderson, I.M. (2000). Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors versus tricyclic antidepressants: A meta-analysis of efficacy and tolerability. Journal of Affective Disorders, 58, 19-36. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10760555
Bowden, C.L. (2000). Efficacy of lithium in mania and maintenance therapy of bipolar disorder. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 61 Suppl 9, 35-40. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10826659
Lotufo-Neto, F., Trivedi, M., & Thase, M.E. (1999). Meta-analysis of the reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase type a moclobemide and brofaromine for the treatment of depression. Neuropsychopharmacology, 20, 226-247. Article: http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v20/n3/full/1395258a.html
Malen, D.G. (1992). Parnate formulation change. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 53, 328-329. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1517197
Meyer, J.H., Ginovart, N., Boovariwala, A., Sagrati, S., Hussey, D., Garcia, A., et al. (2006). Elevated monoamine oxidase a levels in the brain: An explanation for the monoamine imbalance of major depression. Archives of General Psychiatry, 63, 1209-1216. Article: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=668227
Whitaker, R. (2010). Anatomy of an epidemic: Magic bullets, psychiatric drugs, and the astonishing rise of mental illness in America. New York: Broadway Paperbacks.
Posted by Tabitha on April 18, 2016, at 18:31:05
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-The Spirit of Truth is watching, posted by SLS on April 18, 2016, at 6:11:52
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 19:10:28
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Hello321, posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 15:01:47
Tomatgeus, thank you for taking the time to write all that. I thought you madeca lot of good points. I don't think of myself as against someone seeking psychiatric meds. We should have all the options we can get. This, as you've suggested is where today's tt payment of mental health conditions comes up short. For the most part, only one side of the treatment story is told. If they were really in the business of helping, they'd do much more than briefly mention something like Fish Oil being good good for brain function.
And I do believe there is much more understanding of what kind of lifestyles can be detrimental for brain and body function than is made known. We know the basics, caffeine can cause anxiety. Drinking too much alcohol can cause depression. Debatable, but still. Smoking is just bad for everything. And so on... But I've really bought into the information written about in the books I mentioned in earlier posts, Grain Brain and Brain Maker. Yet the US Government tells us most of our calories should be coming from grains. And, if i remember correctly, they subsidize the grain industry. Eating vegetables like brocvoli and carrots would be much healthier sources of nutrients than bread. Mostly because bread, even whole grains, just convert to sugar during digestion. Some grains turn into sugar more slowly, but the they still spike blood sugar. This is unhealthy for the body, as well as the brain.
I feel as long as there continues to be a top down approach with treating mental illness, we won't get any further than ever gotten. I believe that at best, the chemicals that are used only treat the end result of much deeper problems in our brains and bodies. But this is the way it has been for over half a century. And there doesn't seem to be an end in sight.
Posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Hello321, posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 15:01:47
When in the depths of depression, I have gone to the gym and swum (?) for an hour, then got out of the pool and started crying, went home, laid in bed for hours, planning suicide. When not depressed, I swim and lift weights and take long walks. I love exercising, but it's never kept me from getting depressed.
Diet - Given how much dispute there is about what constitutes a healthy diet, who can say? I don't eat much grain, not for health reasons, just don't much like it. I never eat sweets, again, don't much like them. Eat my fruits and veggies. Not much fat - but you've completely forgotten about protein, which humans have always eaten (more so than fats, since they hunted animals that were fairly lean). I eat a lot of protein, including proteins that are high in fat, like eggs. Hasn't kept me from sinking into depression. When depressed, I barely eat at all.
I also see a therapist. I love him and he's a great therapist, but doesn't keep me from getting depressed. DBT helps me cope with depression and, especially, cope with suicidal thoughts, but it doesn't prevent episodes of severe depression.
I meditate, stop and cry and drag myself to bed when I'm depressed. When I'm not depressed, I love meditating.
I have never had a psych med cause life-threatening symptoms (unless you can call rapid weight gain life threatening). Certainly, I don't see how they can ruin the lives of others. Suicide can, but I'm suicidal when psych meds don't work or I'm not taking them. Psych meds have never made me feel suicidal themselves.
I once spent nearly two months in bed, nearly catatonic from depression. A month in a psych hospital. After a washout from other meds, I started on parnate and, within two days, I was up riding the ward's stationary bicycle and doing yoga in the visiting room. Had side effects - insomnia and postural hypotension - hardy life-threatening. After a year or so, parnate didn't hold me, though the depressive episodes I've had since starting do not include virtual catatonia, so that's an improvement.
So I can't agree that depression can be cured by diet, exercise, even meditation, yoga and therapy. I think these can counter mild, situational depressions. But not major depression.
Posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 20:12:55
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Tomatheus, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 19:10:28
Function of whole grains needed in one's diet. Phillipa
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 20:31:11
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
I try to look at all sides. I try to understand the possibilities of all sides. Then there are those who say since something didn't affect them a certain way as someone else else describes, they deny any possibility to it.
Effexor had terrible effects on me. I've experienced some seemingly permanent effects from certain psychiatric treatments, that I've gone into detail about at times on psychobabble, but will avoid here because I know it will wreck any credibility I might have left with some. But this doesn't mean I tell someone im not buying it when they tell me something like "Effexor saved their life".
Type in the name of any psychiatric treatment on Google and put " ruined my life" and many results with people describing their experiences will come up. If those who are pro psychiatry want to discredit the experience of anyone who have suffered at the hands of psychiatry, then why don't these same pro psychiatry people also deserve to be discredited when they speak out?
Effexor didn't help me, and actually made me worse. Therefore I can't get behind any suggestion it could actually benefit anyone. See how that sounds?
But with "Grain Brain", I don't suggest it as a " Be all, end all". Though it might be for some people. But I do see how it might could be very beneficial. And it also proposes it could be a good idea to cut out most fruits in favor of vegetables, because of the sugar content in fruits. That sweet fruits weren't abundant in the diet of our ancestors that our genes developed from.
Then there is the Orthomolecular Therapy that has been shown to be very beneficial. I'd like to look into it. And if I do try it. And if it doesn't help me. I don't think I'll be closing my mind off to the possibility of it helping someone else. Isn't that one of the main points in osychiatry, that we are all different and require different approaches for our treatment?
Posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 20:55:20
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health Grains » Hello321, posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2016, at 20:12:55
> Function of whole grains needed in one's diet. Phillipa
>
> http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/whole-grains/art-20047826?pg=1One can get all the nutrients they need without ever eating any kind of grain. I think the main problem with eating grains is that they are full of carbohydrates. Carbohydrates turn to sugar during digestion. Increasing blood sugar much higher than a meal like broccoli with eggs cooked in grass fed butter.
Here's another point of view of the negative effects of consuming grains.
http://wellnessmama.com/575/problem-with-grains/But the effects of grains on our body and brain are thoroughly described in Grain Brain.
Something else that Grain Brain goes in depth about is improving gut bacteria with foods like kefir and sauerkraut. But it's a book. There's a lot to it that I just can't type all on psychobabble.
Posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 22:31:28
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » Tomatheus, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 19:10:28
Thank you for your reply, Hello321. The information that you've provided in this thread about diet, particularly what you've written regarding grains and carbohydrates, is definitely interesting, and I most certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility that making dietary changes might lead to improved mental health in a many individuals, including some with mental health conditions. I personally see the causes of mental health conditions as being complex and varied, and I think that in some cases, you might be right that what psychiatric medications treat could be the end result of deeper problems in our brains and bodies. In other cases, though, I think that even though psychiatric medications might be treating certain downstream biological consequences of bigger things that are happening in our bodies, these biological consequences might not be that far downstream.
I mentioned the monoamine oxidase A enzyme in my last post, citing a study that had found a significant tendency toward elevated levels of the enzyme in the brains of those with major depressive disorder. If it is indeed the case that MAO-A levels are elevated in clinically depressed patients, then the question must be asked as to what causes the enzyme to be at a high level. Variants of the MAO-A gene might be a possibility in some cases, but I think that another possibility could be that elevated levels of certain building blocks of the enzyme, namely copper, might be contributing to the high MAO-A levels. A small study (Salustri et al., 2010) found copper levels and "free" copper levels to be elevated in depressed patients relative to controls, and when the study that found MAO-A levels to be elevated in the brains of depressed patients is looked at alongside findings of older studies that found MAO-B levels to be elevated in blood platelets of depressed patients, an argument can be made that perhaps it is copper driving up MAO levels, since levels of both copper-containing MAO levels have been found to be elevated in depressed patients. So then, if excesses of copper are driving up MAO levels, which might possibly contribute to depressive illness, the possible cause of the copper excesses would then need to be looked at. My best guess as to what might be causing copper and/or "free" copper levels to be elevated in some depressed patients is that some sorts of chronic infections might be causing this, perhaps different infections in different individuals, but I'm basically just speculating and hypothesizing about this more than anything else right now.
At any rate, I think that regardless as to what might cause mental health conditions and regardless as to how varied the causes of such conditions might be in different individuals, trying different approaches to treatment when the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth-line approaches that have been tried didn't produce any kind of positive results in the long run makes a lot of sense. That's basically what I'm doing now with the orthomolecular approach that I'm currently utilizing along with following healthier habits and applying psychological self-help strategies, and it sounds like that's also basically what you've been doing with the dietary modifications that you've been trying out. Maybe at some point I'll reach the conclusion that the approaches that I'm currently utilizing also aren't going to be helpful in the long run, and if that occurs, I'd like to hope that I'll try yet another different approach to treatment, but I think that when certain approaches to treatment do not produce positive results over and over again, it then becomes time to try something different.
Tomatheus
==
REFERENCE
Salustri, C., Squitti, R, Zappasodi, F., Ventriglia, M., Bevacqua, M.G., Fontana, M., et al. (2010). Oxidative stress and brain glutamate-mediated excitability in depressed patients. Journal of Affective Disorders, 127, 321-325. Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20547423
Posted by Tomatheus on April 18, 2016, at 23:40:51
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
Thank you for your reply, Baseball55. I think that without question, the experiences that you've had with various approaches to treating your depression are absolutely valid, and I most certainly think it's a good thing that you've been able to identify which approaches to managing your condition seem to be the most helpful and which approaches don't seem to be so helpful. As I said earlier in this thread, I think that there's a lot of variability in how different individuals with mental health conditions respond to some of the various treatment approaches that I mentioned in my other post, and I do think that some of the treatment approaches that I mentioned have more evidence to support their use than some of the other approaches that I mentioned.
In some ways, what you've written about exercise, healthy dietary choices, and meditation not being enough to prevent you from getting depressed (along with what you wrote about therapy not being enough to prevent episodes of severe depression, despite the fact that it helps you to cope with suicidal thinking and other depressive symptoms) sounds like it's similar to what I wrote about having too much difficulty applying psychological self-help strategies and making the healthiest of lifestyle choices when the biological aspects associated with my mental health condition aren't being addressed in an effective way. For me, exercise, talk therapies, and other treatment interventions that don't have certain direct biological effects don't seem to put a noticeable enough dent in any of my symptoms -- not in my affective symptoms, and not in my schizophrenia-spectrum symptoms -- when my condition isn't being managed with interventions that effectively target the biological aspects of it more directly. And like you, when my symptoms become rather intense, I try to focus what little brain power I have on trying to eat whatever it is that I can eat instead of on making the healthiest dietary choices.
I do, however, think that when looking at what treatment interventions might be helpful for individuals with mental health conditions more globally, paying attention to the treatment interventions that others report being helpful and to what scientific studies have to say about the efficacy of various treatment approaches can help us to understand which treatment approaches people with mental health conditions as a whole might find beneficial, even if we ourselves don't necessarily find them to be so beneficial. When looking at the various treatment interventions that I listed in my earlier post to this thread, I think that there's a great deal of variability in the amount of evidence that there is to support the use of these interventions. Psychiatric medications, for instance, are clearly evidence-based treatments, as are some other interventions, such as talk therapies and exercise (at least for certain conditions). For the most part, I don't think that any of the interventions that I mentioned in my earlier post are cures, although it's possible that a few of them (like vitamin D3, if levels of the vitamin are low, and if low levels of the vitamin do contribute to clinical depression) might be. However, with respect to major depressive disorder, although I think it's likely that many patients with the disorder won't respond to some or even all of the treatments, I do think that some treatment interventions -- especially talk therapies and also exercise, to what's probably a lesser extent -- have demonstrated efficacy in scientific studies. Some of the other treatment interventions that I mentioned aren't so much what I'd call evidence-based practices for major depressive disorder, but I think that there are some individuals with the disorder who might find the interventions to be helpful.
Tomatheus
Posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 0:35:05
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by baseball55 on April 18, 2016, at 19:32:53
> When in the depths of depression, I have gone to the gym and swum (?) for an hour, then got out of the pool and started crying, went home, laid in bed for hours, planning suicide. [...]
Your post really rings true for me and you put it so well.
I used to take walks when in pretty bad depression. It took the edge off a bit, for the time I was walking, then shortly after getting home it was just as bad. I also noticed I would make poor decisions about the time and place to walk, thus risking my personal safety. I was suicidal anyway so I didn't really have much concern about safety :-(
I read a couple of books about how to change your mood, forget the exact author and titles, but the advice boiled down to "take a 10 minute walk" as a mood lifter. Seriously, this author stretched that out into two books. So I figured I needed to take shorter walks maybe, instead of going to the point of near exhaustion. I took the 10 minute walk, felt slightly better for maybe an hour. So what was I supposed to do, take a 10 minute walk every hour all day long?
Also tried many arbitrary diets that made health claims. Perhaps they help as much as taking up any challenging activity helps, which is only in giving you a sense of achievement.
I'll take the pills (that actually do help), thanks.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 0:52:57
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » baseball55, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 0:35:05
> > When in the depths of depression, I have gone to the gym and swum (?) for an hour, then got out of the pool and started crying, went home, laid in bed for hours, planning suicide. [...]
>
> Your post really rings true for me and you put it so well.
>
> I used to take walks when in pretty bad depression. It took the edge off a bit, for the time I was walking, then shortly after getting home it was just as bad. I also noticed I would make poor decisions about the time and place to walk, thus risking my personal safety. I was suicidal anyway so I didn't really have much concern about safety :-(
>
> I read a couple of books about how to change your mood, forget the exact author and titles, but the advice boiled down to "take a 10 minute walk" as a mood lifter. Seriously, this author stretched that out into two books. So I figured I needed to take shorter walks maybe, instead of going to the point of near exhaustion. I took the 10 minute walk, felt slightly better for maybe an hour. So what was I supposed to do, take a 10 minute walk every hour all day long?
>
> Also tried many arbitrary diets that made health claims. Perhaps they help as much as taking up any challenging activity helps, which is only in giving you a sense of achievement.
>
> I'll take the pills (that actually do help), thanks.Exercising actually does help me. But as I've said, I don't deny that the pills have actually helped others, even though they havent helped me. You guys are making it more and more obvious that you 100% deserve the stigma that you experience by closing off any suggestion that there's a world of help beyond more pills. You're being just as closed minded as someone who says it's all in your head, pills don't work, that you just need willpower. The next time you experience any negativity because of the stigma exists, remember this, please. The irony blows my mind.
Goodnight.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 1:10:42
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 0:52:57
I typed in "diet cured my depression" and this came right up.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/2f6eeu/how_i_cured_16_years_of_severe_depression_and/
This person seems to have had an amazing experience after making big changes in her diet.
Posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions » baseball55, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 20:31:11
> I try to look at all sides. I try to understand the possibilities of all sides. [...]
I think the argument here is that all treatments (including conventional and alternative) work, they just work for different people. If so, then it would make sense to take a trial-and-error approach, and it would not make sense to criticize anyone else's choices. If Lou says the advice from his vision of the Rider on the white horse cured him, that's right for him. If Hello321 says Grain Brain cured them, that's right for them. If others say that psych med combos keep them functional, that's right for them.
As it turns out though, it's more difficult than you might think to tell if a treatment works. Here is a good summary of ways people can be fooled. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
It's also pretty easy to make up a treatment. You just come up with a plausible sounding argument and add some testimonials. If you want to appeal to the more science-minded folks, you can claim it is "evidence-based" and add reference notes to some studies that, on closer inspection, turn out to be of poor quality or irrelevant to the question of whether the treatment works on humans.
Nobody has time to try every treatment under the sun. Some of them (such as special diets and supplement regimens) take months and hundreds of dollars to try. Given the human tendency to be poor at judging whether a treatment works or not, it's a better use of time to try approaches with better evidence first. FDA approval is a good low water mark.
Once you get into the non-FDA-approved stuff, it's very unlikely that the treatment has been tested on humans in controlled experiments. Testimonials and self-experimentation are much poorer evidence than controlled experiments.
Posted by SLS on April 19, 2016, at 5:49:48
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 6:54:40
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
> > I try to look at all sides. I try to understand the possibilities of all sides. [...]
>
> I think the argument here is that all treatments (including conventional and alternative) work, they just work for different people. If so, then it would make sense to take a trial-and-error approach, and it would not make sense to criticize anyone else's choices. If Lou says the advice from his vision of the Rider on the white horse cured him, that's right for him. If Hello321 says Grain Brain cured them, that's right for them. If others say that psych med combos keep them functional, that's right for them.
>
> As it turns out though, it's more difficult than you might think to tell if a treatment works. Here is a good summary of ways people can be fooled. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html
>
> It's also pretty easy to make up a treatment. You just come up with a plausible sounding argument and add some testimonials. If you want to appeal to the more science-minded folks, you can claim it is "evidence-based" and add reference notes to some studies that, on closer inspection, turn out to be of poor quality or irrelevant to the question of whether the treatment works on humans.
>
> Nobody has time to try every treatment under the sun. Some of them (such as special diets and supplement regimens) take months and hundreds of dollars to try. Given the human tendency to be poor at judging whether a treatment works or not, it's a better use of time to try approaches with better evidence first. FDA approval is a good low water mark.
>
> Once you get into the non-FDA-approved stuff, it's very unlikely that the treatment has been tested on humans in controlled experiments. Testimonials and self-experimentation are much poorer evidence than controlled experiments.
Exactly. Just wanted to make sure thecword was getting out.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:02:12
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 6:54:40
But to the last part, I learned my lesson with waiting for the FDA to let me know what I should and shouldn't be doing to help myself.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:34:49
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:02:12
I'm sorry but it's just how I feel. People come home from the doctor feeling hopeless sometimes, because of what ever news they did or didn't get. And I see this as unnecessary because there's often more that can be done than what ever treatment is given from the doctor. Nobody cares about you or your well-being than yourself. Nobody should be putting in more effort to feel better than yourself. (Not directed at you). And I feel that reading research articles on sites like pubmed about any topic that I run across that interests me has been a big help. It has made it clear to me that there's much more knowledge available than what is presented to the public. We get a dumbed down version of it that actually is bad for us in some cases. Today's leading science/medical knowledge can take decades before it makes its way to the public in the form of treatment for a particular condition. Or just in the form of advice, like what a healthy diet should generally consist of. The Food Pyramid, or today's "MyPlate" I think it's called is downright misleading with how much it supports eating more bread, pasta, oats, etc...
This is why I've talked about knowledge being power. The knowledge that could give us more options to improve our lives isnt very difficult to access. But I think lack of desire and motivation often hold people back. This, along anxiety that can come along with trying to take full control of ones treatment for their condition. I see the things like the white coats that doctors wear as being calming for people.
Posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 8:42:02
In reply to I'm sorry, posted by Hello321 on April 19, 2016, at 7:34:49
.
Posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2016, at 9:33:56
In reply to Re: Helping those with mental health conditions, posted by Tabitha on April 19, 2016, at 1:29:44
Tabitha you last two responses are just what I personally needed to hear. Thank you so much Phillipa
Posted by Lamdage22 on April 19, 2016, at 12:10:05
In reply to Re: Science. » SLS, posted by Hello321 on April 18, 2016, at 14:23:19
Another "enlightened" preacher:)
PB seems to create them somehow.
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