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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 94. Go back in thread:
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 21:17:19
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 21:02:06
Well, it is basically classified as depression. But it is a Psychiatric med induced depression. The main problem has been that in most cases, I cant just chronically take a Med without it eventually having a permanent effect on me. So, I have to be much more calculated in which Med I take.
But the Med that has affected me worse was Mirapex that I took a few years ago. For a few weeks I experienced a benefit of the increased dopamine receptor stimulation, but after that u experienced what I think of as basically a shutdown of my dopamine functioning. Extreme depression kicked in. Extreme apathy. Words cannot do it justice.
I can no longer feel the effects of adderall. Or dopamine antagonists.
Ive trued many medications as well as rTMS AND I have maybe 2 more ideas to try and then if they don't work, do believe I'll be out of luck. Deep Brain Stimulation is one.
Posted by herpills on February 2, 2014, at 22:03:10
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » herpills, posted by baseball55 on February 2, 2014, at 18:58:45
>
> I get annoyed by the extreme negativity expressed about mental health practitioners on this board.
> >
> >Why does it annoy you?
Should only people with great psychiatrists be allowed to post on this forum?
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:11:53
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » herpills, posted by baseball55 on February 2, 2014, at 18:58:45
>
> I get annoyed by the extreme negativity expressed about mental health practitioners on this board.
> >
> >
> >
>Perhaps it might benefit you if you dont open the posts of those who typically express views on this site that annoy you?
Posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 22:19:27
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness., posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 21:17:19
All psychiatric medications can cause changes in thinking which may become permanent, however changes in mood cannot become permanent-the elastic nature of mood prevents this.
Why are you messing around with dopamineantagonists?
What antidepressants have you been on?
Eric
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:22:57
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 22:19:27
> All psychiatric medications can cause changes in thinking which may become permanent, however changes in mood cannot become permanent-the elastic nature of mood prevents this.
>
> Why are you messing around with dopamineantagonists?
>
> What antidepressants have you been on?
>
> EricAre you saying changes in brain functioning cannot become permanent?
I took Mirapex to help with decreased libido.
Mirapex also actually induced Restless Legs Syndrome.
Posted by baseball55 on February 2, 2014, at 22:24:33
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » baseball55, posted by herpills on February 2, 2014, at 22:03:10
>
> >
> > I get annoyed by the extreme negativity expressed about mental health practitioners on this board.
> > >
> > >
>
> Why does it annoy you?
>
>
> Should only people with great psychiatrists be allowed to post on this forum?
> Why so defensive? Of course, anyone should be allowed to post, with good or bad experiences. What annoys me is that wholesale condemnations of mental heath practitioners routinely go unchallenged on this board. I am just challenging them.Okay, so you had a bad experience. That doesn't mean all p-docs s**k or psychiatrists are in league against us. My experience has been different. I just feel it is necessary to insert this point of view on occasion and counter the frequent attacks on mental health practitioners. And I say mental health practitioners because I have read, on this board, not only wholesale condemnations of p-docs, but also of inpatient counsellors, outpatient therapists, and on and on.
I just want to go on the record to say - that hasn't been my experience.
>
>
>
Posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 22:31:25
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness., posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:22:57
What brain functions?
What antidepressants have you been on?
Eric
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:37:02
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » herpills, posted by baseball55 on February 2, 2014, at 22:24:33
> > Why so defensive? Of course, anyone should be allowed to post, with good or bad experiences. What annoys me is that wholesale condemnations of mental heath practitioners routinely go unchallenged on this board. I am just challenging them.
>
> Okay, so you had a bad experience. That doesn't mean all p-docs s**k or psychiatrists are in league against us. My experience has been different. I just feel it is necessary to insert this point of view on occasion and counter the frequent attacks on mental health practitioners. And I say mental health practitioners because I have read, on this board, not only wholesale condemnations of p-docs, but also of inpatient counsellors, outpatient therapists, and on and on.
>
> I just want to go on the record to say - that hasn't been my experience.
> >
> >
> >
>I'm just presenting my experience on here, which is quite different from the prevailing opinion on Psychobabble. Your thoughts on Psychiatry seem to be basically shared with most people on Babble. Your experience hasn't been ignored by mainstream Psychiatry like mine has. I hope you're thankful for this.
Posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:41:21
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 22:31:25
> What brain functions?
>
> What antidepressants have you been on?
>
> EricYou said these meds can to cause a permanent change in mood. What makes up ones mood? Their brain function?
I take it you are saying psychiatric meds cannot cause permanent change in brain function.
Posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 23:30:42
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 2, 2014, at 22:41:21
Meds can cause permanent chanages in brain function, for example, tardive dyskenasia.
But can they make you permanently depressed? No. That would take some major alterations to brain structure.
What antidepressants have you been on?
Eric
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 8:37:34
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » SLS, posted by herpills on February 2, 2014, at 13:54:24
>
> >
> > > How do you know?
> >
> > Exposure.Exposure to a bunch of different doctors in several different venues. I've been treated by local doctors, doctors at major universities, teaching hospitals, and at the NIH.
> > > What makes them great?
> > What criteria in particular would you like for people to rate psychiatrists on?
> I'm not sure, one reason why I brought it up!Okay, yes. You are right.
I don't know how to answer that. Of course, having a track record of successfully treating people is one criterion. Compassion and attentiveness. Insight into what it is like to experience mental illness - knowing how intensely painful and unrelenting it can be. Able to keep up with the latest research and clinical diagnostic and treatment strategies. Willing to take on challenging cases and motivated to research and confer with colleagues. Has a good foundation in medicine and understands the body as an integrated system. Willing to explore treatments that are aggressive and unconventional. Unafraid to use MAOIs and combine them other drugs. Unafraid to refuse the use of treatments that he believes are unsafe or counterproductive, despite the pleadings of his patients. Willing to listen to patients and respect their intelligence and knowledge. Understands that drugs can make someone feel worse instead of better - that suicide can be the ultimate side effect. Monitors a patient closely during the first three weeks of treatment when suicidality is most likely. Spends more than 5 minutes interacting with and evaluating a patient on follow-up visits. Willing to suggest to a patient that they seek a second opinion or consultation with another doctor when the strategies tried are inadequate. Understands the dynamics between the biological and psychological and appreciates the value of psychotherapy. Refuses to tell a patient that they are untreatable. Aappreciates the number of permutations possible of drugs when they are combined. Knows the pharmacology of drugs in addition to their clinical characteristics.
These are a few of my favorite things...
- Scott
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 11:51:57
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 2, 2014, at 23:30:42
>
> But can they make you permanently depressed? No. That would take some major alterations to brain structure.
>
> What antidepressants have you been on?
>
> EricHow do you know this?
But, if you lack the understanding into, at least the possibility of how Psychiatric Chemicals can cause a situation like mine, I don't believe advice from you based on past meds I've tried could be helpful.
Posted by Bob on February 3, 2014, at 12:00:49
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » herpills, posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 8:37:34
Unafraid to use MAOIs and combine them other drugs. Unafraid to refuse the use of treatments that he believes are unsafe or counterproductive, despite the pleadings of his patients. Willing to listen to patients and respect their intelligence and knowledge. Understands that drugs can make someone feel worse instead of better - that suicide can be the ultimate side effect. Monitors a patient closely during the first three weeks of treatment when suicidality is most likely. Spends more than 5 minutes interacting with and evaluating a patient on follow-up visits. Willing to suggest to a patient that they seek a second opinion or consultation with another doctor when the strategies tried are inadequate. Understands the dynamics between the biological and psychological and appreciates the value of psychotherapy. Refuses to tell a patient that they are untreatable. Aappreciates the number of permutations possible of drugs when they are combined. Knows the pharmacology of drugs in addition to their clinical characteristics.
>
> These are a few of my favorite things...
>
>
Scott:What area of the country are you in? I might consider looking for a pdoc that would consider the MAOI treatment along with nortriptline and possible augmentation with dopaminergic drugs as well on occasion. He has been a relatively good doc for me though and meets just about all the other criteria you've mentioned in your description. And I've been seeing him for almost 20 years. It would be a big change for me.
I'm also not sure how I would find a pdoc that I knew was willing to try before I've even seen him or her. Seems kind of weird to ask someone that as a pre-screening req.
Bob
Posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 12:50:24
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 11:51:57
How do you know the meds permanently changed your brain function?
Son, you're on a high horse, convinced this is what's happened to you. You come to this board to bitch about it and reject all offers for help. Keep ranting about it and its going to get you nowhere.
You're obsessed with the idea medication caused you brain damage. Just get it out of your f*ck*ng mind and maybe you'll be able to move forward.
Eric
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:00:06
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 12:50:24
I know this for the dame basic reason anyone knows how any Med they've taken affected them.
I come here for advice on my situation as well as discuss psychiatric meds.
I routinely have you and a few others discredit my experiences when I post on here. I appreciate posts by those who have an open mind.
Posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 13:08:02
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:00:06
Yet you don't have an open enough mind to discuss your past therapies with me. Weird.
Why can't it simply be your illness that worsened?
Eric
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:14:33
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:00:06
I wasn't exactly trying to be rude. But if some of routinely discredited and demean the experiences of a certain visitor to this sight, then how would you expect this person to reply, Eric?
You need yo accept that there are roughly 7 billion people on this Earth with different Genetic Make-Ups. Not all of them are going to react to putting a foreign chemical that sneaks past their blood brain barrier in a routine way.
And I find it incredibly ironic how people on this site who recognize and have experienced the stigma of Depression. And how many others just do not understand it, because it differs from the norm. But it is ironic, how many of these same people
turn around and look at me the same as ways as those with healthier minds look at them.You meed to get off your high horse, Eric. If you didn't notice, I began describing my situation to you seeking advice until you discredited my experience.
Posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:17:13
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus » poser938, posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 13:08:02
> Yet you don't have an open enough mind to discuss your past therapies with me. Weird.
>
> Why can't it simply be your illness that worsened?
>
> EricI'd be wasting my time telling you about my past experiences after you discredit my experience.
And its simply not just that my illness worsened.
Anyways, I gotta get off here.
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 17:05:47
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:17:13
I would not be so quick to discredit your experiences. I am convinced that exposure to some psychiatric drugs results in changes in brain function that can persist after they are discontinued.
How is your condition different now compared to before drug treatment? Which drugs do you feel are most responsible for these changes?
It is important to note that Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) tends to get worse over time in untreated individuals. It also has a tendency to morph in a way where melancholic thoughts recede and cognitive impairments predominate. I believe that when MDD first emerges in late-life, it also looks a lot like dementia.
1. How old are you?
2. At what age did MDD appear?
3. What was the course of your illness before treatment? Was it chronic or recurrent?
4. Are there any first-degree relatives with depression, bipolar disorder, or schizoid disorder?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 17:26:48
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » SLS, posted by Bob on February 3, 2014, at 12:00:49
> What area of the country are you in?
Near New York City.
I like Columbia / New York State Psychiatric for working with aggressive therapies using MAOIs. I have been seen by several doctors there. Patrick McGrath might be a good one to ask for.
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=pjm5&DepAffil=Psychiatry
http://columbiapsychiatry.org/researchclinics/depression-evaluation-service
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 18:16:46
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by poser938 on February 3, 2014, at 13:14:33
>I began describing my situation to you seeking advice until you discredited my experience.
I can only advise you if YOU keep an open mind. You are absolutely convinced medication caused your illness and won't look at it any other way.
My big question is: If medication has brought you so much ill, why do you insist on visiting med boards? Why not just give up on drugs?
Eric
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2014, at 3:37:05
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. Phidippus, posted by phidippus on February 3, 2014, at 18:16:46
> > I began describing my situation to you seeking advice until you discredited my experience.
>
> I can only advise you if YOU keep an open mind. You are absolutely convinced medication caused your illness and won't look at it any other way.Could I call a time-out?
1. If one poster has a bad experience with psychiatry, that doesn't mean psychiatry is always wrong. Just like if another poster has a good experience with psychiatry, that doesn't mean psychiatry is always right. Neither's experience discredits the other's.
2. A discussion is more likely to be productive if both "sides" keep an open mind. Maybe medication didn't cause someone's illness. But maybe it did.
3. The goal here is to be supportive, not to be right.
> My big question is: If medication has brought you so much ill, why do you insist on visiting med boards? Why not just give up on drugs?
Maybe they have an open mind. One bad experience, or even a string of them, doesn't mean their next experience won't be good. Hope springs eternal.
Bob
Posted by SLS on February 4, 2014, at 5:13:40
In reply to Re: Wrong and Right, posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2014, at 3:37:05
> One bad experience, or even a string of them, doesn't mean their next experience won't be good. Hope springs eternal.
Amen to that!
- Scott
Posted by Bob on February 4, 2014, at 11:34:14
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » Bob, posted by SLS on February 3, 2014, at 17:26:48
> > What area of the country are you in?
>
> Near New York City.
>
> I like Columbia / New York State Psychiatric for working with aggressive therapies using MAOIs. I have been seen by several doctors there. Patrick McGrath might be a good one to ask for.
>
> http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=pjm5&DepAffil=Psychiatry
>
> http://columbiapsychiatry.org/researchclinics/depression-evaluation-service
>
>
> - Scott
Ha! Oddly enough, NYSPI and Columbia is exactly where I went when I was an active DBS participant. I've been to those facilities a number of times. I have not dealt with the individuals you mentioned however. It would be difficult for me to slog up there from the Balto-Wash area in MD for active treatment. It was definitely a stretch when I was active on DBS.Thanks for the info... I will mull it over.
Bob
Posted by SLS on February 4, 2014, at 13:09:50
In reply to Re: Wrong about mental illness. » SLS, posted by Bob on February 4, 2014, at 11:34:14
What about Johns Hopkins?
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/moods/
I bet Kay Redfield Jameson, Ph.D. would suggest a few names to you.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/moods/expert_team/jamison.html
- Scott
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