![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 123. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on June 29, 2013, at 11:18:20
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » SLS, posted by laurah952 on June 29, 2013, at 10:27:34
It is not enough to state a fact and give an opinion based on that fact. One must place a fact in context with other facts and review the opinions that take those facts into consideration. Of course, this is a dynamic process that produces refinements over the course of an evolution of gathered facts, theories, and understandings.
As I mentioned in a previous post, there is certainly some concern as to what effects antidepressants can have on a maturing brain. This remains largely unknown. If I had a child with bipolar disorder, I would opt to try psychotherapy first, followed by lithium and anticonvulsant mood stabilizers. I would then consider the need for neuroleptic antipsychotics and antidepressants. It often comes down to evaluating risk/cost versus benefit. Ideally, one would want to be treated by a pediatric psychiatrist.
Just a few alternatives:
1. Lithium
2. Depakote
3. Trileptal
4. Topamax1. Seroquel
2. Abilify
3. Risperdal
4. Latuda1. Wellbutrin
2. Effexor / Pristiq
3. Zoloft
4. ParnatePersonally, I would not deny a child an antidepressant or antipsychotic if it would keep them alive and thriving. Close monitoring during the first 4 - 6 weeks should effectively screen for a negative reaction to the drugs being trialed.
If ADHD is present, perhaps using a mood stabilizer and stimulant would be considered.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 29, 2013, at 11:22:39
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » SLS, posted by laurah952 on June 29, 2013, at 10:27:34
By the way, what, specifically, did you find in Lou Pilder's posts that you feel have merit?
- Scott
Posted by laurah952 on June 29, 2013, at 12:54:21
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » laurah952, posted by SLS on June 29, 2013, at 11:18:20
> As I mentioned in a previous post, there is certainly some concern as to what effects antidepressants can have on a maturing brain. This remains largely unknown. If I had a child with bipolar disorder, I would opt to try psychotherapy first, followed by lithium and anticonvulsant mood stabilizers. I would then consider the need for neuroleptic antipsychotics and antidepressants. It often comes down to evaluating risk/cost versus benefit. Ideally, one would want to be treated by a pediatric psychiatrist.
From what I've seen, Taylor's therapist uses a combined strategy of both psychotherapy and CBT. Taylor sees her once a week, and responds most positively. It's difficult to sit out, and not be privy to all that is said, but I know that in order for therapy to work for her, she needs to be able to open up completely. As you may know, I have a new adolescent psychiatrist for Taylor, but we must go through the intake process first. I thought a medical work-up was done while she was an inpatient in the adolescent psychiatric hospital. Since I have not gotten any results, I will ask what tests should be done, and go from there. I will also be asking about a bi-polar diagnosis, as opposed to the original MDD diagnosis. I have pages of notes on my observations of Taylor that I formed into letters addressing both her therapist, and her previous pdoc. I will bring them with me to her intake on Monday.
I will research and take the lists of medications you have so graciously provided me to her new pdoc. Thank you for that!
>
> Personally, I would not deny a child an > > antidepressant or antipsychotic if it would keep them alive and thriving. Close monitoring during the first 4 - 6 weeks should effectively screen for a negative reaction to the drugs being trialed.Although I am questioning long term effects, I will not deny her medications that will keep her alive and well. I will be researching, and asking the pdoc about all possible negative side effects of any med she takes. I will also monitor closely her moods, especially her suicidal ideations and cutting.
> If ADHD is present, perhaps using a mood stabilizer and stimulant would be considered.She may have ADD, but I haven't seen the hyperactivity index since she was much younger. (unless constant leg/knee shaking when sitting is a factor)
Taylor has always been a sweet, caring, and loving child. She's never been in any trouble, and other parents always comment on what a polite girl she is. She's also very sensitive, and "stuffs" resentments/anger instead of letting them out. She has incredible low self esteem despite her beauty, loving demeanor, talents, and the hard work she employs in school. (final grade average for the year is an 89, despite all she's been through) She believes that she is a burden, and this scares me as her perception is way off.
I'm sorry for the long post; I'm just going to continue to fight for her as diligently as I'm able...
Thank you so much, Scott, and everyone who's helped by answering my questions and providing information and support.
- Laura
Posted by laurah952 on June 29, 2013, at 13:39:42
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » laurah952, posted by SLS on June 29, 2013, at 11:22:39
> By the way, what, specifically, did you find in Lou Pilder's posts that you feel have merit?
>
>
> - ScottIt wasn't his posts so much, and I hope I used the term "may have merit", as opposed to "does have merit" but rather the links to other sites claiming possible long term effects of administering psychiatric meds to children. We may not have a clear idea of what, if anything, they may do, but it scares me nonetheless.
I already knew that antidepressants may initially increase suicidal ideation. I can monitor that.
I also don't want her dependent on medication because I gave her medication, so to speak. If that's incorrect, I'd love to know.
What he writes holds no merit to me. The site that claims to have these studies that he shoves down our throats, also holds no merit if you look at the supposed data on medication related suicide. There's nothing there except for a statement based on... well nothing. I believe that it's merely a scare tactic.
- Laura
Posted by SLS on June 29, 2013, at 14:03:49
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » SLS, posted by laurah952 on June 29, 2013, at 13:39:42
> The site that claims to have these studies that he shoves down our throats, also holds no merit if you look at the supposed data on medication related suicide. There's nothing there except for a statement based on... well nothing. I believe that it's merely a scare tactic.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on June 29, 2013, at 20:07:30
In reply to Lou's response-ihnphanticyde » laurah952, posted by Lou Pilder on June 28, 2013, at 8:00:45
Spelling it in your Lounique way is no excuse. Shame on you.
Posted by poser938 on June 29, 2013, at 20:38:44
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » laurah952, posted by SLS on June 29, 2013, at 14:03:49
Laura, based on my experience, a psychiatrists information on all possible negative effects of medication will be far from complete.
Yes, Lou is full of scare tactics. But I'm glad you believe the thought of the possibility of permanent effects from psychiatric medications holds merit. I have experienced some brain disabling effects from psychiatric meds myself. I went into the mental health system for mild to moderate depression in 2005. And now, what I have, I don't like to call it severe depression, but that's what it would appear as. What I have is a bona fire brain dysfunction caused by chemicals (medicine) that I willingly swallowed. My whole brain, emotion sensory system is messed up,i guess is the best way to put it.
I just want everyone to have fully informed consent. And I believe if one were to mainly make their decision to take these made based on the information their psychiatrist provides, and what is written in the patient information sheet, then they'd be making a decision based on incomplete information.
Just be careful. Use logic, reason. And yes, research. The best we know about these meds is that they tell the brain to function in an unnatural way. Yes, this could lead to someone feeling better. But it could also lead to the opposite. And the opposite can be scarier than what's imaginable, just like beeping freed from depression can be better than is imaginable.
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 29, 2013, at 22:38:37
In reply to Lou's response-ihnphanticyde » laurah952, posted by Lou Pilder on June 28, 2013, at 8:00:45
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Sorry for posting this 2x. I wanted to start a new thread for this as it is so important to me.
> >
> > After talking with a new pdoc (my own) - we spent a good deal of time talking about Taylor. (14yo daughter)
> >
> > Although we saw what seemed to be MDD at first, this pdoc stated that she's is most likely bi-polar and not suffering with MDD. So, not unipolar, rather bi-polar. She based her "diagnosis" on the fact that mood swings have been severe, along with many other classic bi-polar symptoms.
> >
> > She thinks it should be treated only with bi-polar meds (non-psychotropic if possible) only. I guess that would mean that Zoloft would not be helping much? (That the only real help she had was the Seroquel)
> >
> > My daughter still has her own appt. there, but not for a while. In the meantime, do you think the Zoloft is a bad idea? (I could up Seroquel a bit, and down the Zoloft to 50mg, for a start) The pdoc she was seeing, told me to "do whatever I wanted".
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any help/opinions,
> > Laura
>
> L,
> You wrote,[...do you think..Zoloft is a bad idea...could up the Seroquel...Thanks..for any help/opinions...].
> Death is not the only event that could happen when you give a child a mind-altering drug in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor. There are life-ruining conditions attributed to psychotropic drugs. And addiction is also in the cards. And the fact that the drug is taken daily for months or years is rolling the dice each time the drug is going through the child's body. And when more than one drug is taken, the events are increased exponentially. And when the age of the person having the drugs going through their body and mind is of a young age, there is even more danger to the mind that can last into adulthood and manifest itself in a life-ruining condition. There could be brain damage and learning problems and if more drugs are introduced to counteract the first drugs, there can be an exacerbation of even more brain damage that could lead the child to a life of misery and addiction and a worsening of depression, for the drug manufactrers say even in their pamphlet that they can worsen the condition and cause depression and psychosis, not to mention liver failure, kidney failure, heart failure, diabetes, tardive dyskinesia and increased suicidal/homocidal thinking.
> If you read that these drugs can be an anti suicide pill, think again. This is because the drugs can INCREASE suicidal thinking, not decrease it. There is research now going on by the Army to try to make an anti-suicide pill, actually a nasal spray. This shows that an anti- suicide pill does not exist now. THESE DRUGS ARE NOT ANTI- SUICIDE PILLS. (emphasis mine) There is some speculation that Lithium used long-term could be anti-suicidal in nature, but this is inconclusive, and the price to pay could be death by kidney failure.
> Then there is the aspect of the drugs causing violence. Violence to kill their own parents, innocent children and people just at a theater or shopping mall or at work or even in an elementary school. And as more drugs are taken into the brain of the child, more damage can be done. Damage that could mark the difference between the drugged child becoming a mass-murderer or not, or killing their own parents. You see, the drug companies state that the mechanism of action of their drugs is unknown. It may be unknown to them, but listen to me here,
> I KNOW EXACTLY HOW THE DRUGS DO WHAT THEY DO. (emphasis mine)
> I KNOW HOW ONE CAN BECOME FREE FROM ADDICTION AND DEPRESSION
> I KNOW (redacted by respondent) because I am prevented from posting here what could bring healing to those suffering due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung. And Mr Hsiung states that he does what will be good for this community as a whole and to try and trust him as to what he does here. But I say to you parents reading here trying to determine if drugging your child is going to be good for your child. That is different from what will be good for this community as a whole and I hope that you have an understanding of history and know what happened to all of those that said that they were doing what would be good for their community as a whole while they murdered children, which there is another prohibition to me here from Mr Hsiung that prevents me from posting about much of that here, even though I think that if there was not the prohibitions to me, lives could be saved, addictions and life-ruining conditions could be avoided and people could have the opportunity to have a new life, free from depression and addiction. What I could say if there were not the prohibitions to me here is supportive in any community , unless the community does not want people to be free from addiction and depression and go on to an early death by suicide or the drugs themselves. Oh, the horror of it all.
> Lou
>Friends,
My apology to anyone that thought that I used the word in question in relation to the poster that I responded to, laura, for that was not my intention.
Lou
Posted by Lou PIlder on June 29, 2013, at 23:03:52
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » SLS, posted by laurah952 on June 29, 2013, at 10:27:34
> Now that you understand the behavioral characteristics of the posters that you find toxic, you can avoid them. You might not need to avoid the entire website. I think there is much more that we can offer each other. I would be sad were you to disappear.
>
> From where I sit, it appears to me that you are doing an extraordinary job of caring for Taylor. I was going enumerate the reasons why I feel that way, but realized that it would take too long.
>
> :-)
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Thanks again Scott. Along with others here, you have helped me a great deal, not only with medical information, but also with your support. While my family is supportive, the responsibility lies with me alone, and it's taking its toll on me, both emotionally and physically.
>
> I hate to say it, but the information I read from the links Lou posted here have me thinking that I may be making a mistake in medicating Taylor. I came here with an open mind, so I'm looking at all information there is on this topic. Her brain is still growing and we don't know all the adverse ramifications that psychiatric medication may have concerning her future. This is not the first time I've heard it said, as my family tends to adopt a no-medication mentality. With that said, you can only imagine the guilt I feel as a parent, not only by questioning my own causality, but also suffering with every single dose of medication I give her.
>
> When I come here and see "ihnphanticyde" right next to my name, even considering the source, I truly cannot well explain what that does to me. I never expected any of this to be easy, but it's getting more and more difficult to maintain a positive attitude.
>
> I have a lifetime's worth of information that I had hoped would be useful to others. I just don't know if I'm strong enough right now to be a part of a group where I'm being "called a murderer", even though the rest of you have been so wonderful. I have also been a moderator on a Yahoo group for small business owners, and I can tell you right now that these inflammatory posts would have been stopped dead in their tracks.
>
> Thank you for your help and support,
> LauraL,
You wrote,[...the information that I read from the links Lou posted here has me thinking that I may be making a mistake in medicating (my child)...]
Let us reason together. Do chemicals that have been used in insecticides and in the commission of mass-murder have healing properties? Has there ever been anyone cured by using mind-altering drugs? Do the psychiatrists/doctors now claim that psychotropic drugs cure anything or do they now take the position that they are using the drugs to treat symptoms? Do chemicals address the underlying cause of depression? And if one takes these drugs for just a few weeks, can they become addicted to the drug so that if they stop the drug they could go into a hellish withdrawal and kill themselves thinking that they could never live in that state and that they would be better off dead? And when the doctor/psychiatrist gives the child the drug to take and tells the parent that the child has to take it for weeks before it "works", whatever that could mean, and then the psychiatrist says to he mom to stop the drug, does not the psychiatrist know that the child now could be an addict at age 14? And if grown people can not get off these drugs and say that the withdrawal is worse than heroin withdrawal, how could a child deal with such horror and while mom is asleep, kill themselves?
NOW BE ADSVISED
I KNOW THE UNDERLYING CAUSE OF DEPRESSION IN CHILDREN AND HOW TO FREE THE CHILD FROM ADDICTION AND DEPRESSION
Lou
Posted by antennastoheaven on June 30, 2013, at 1:01:34
In reply to Lou's response- » laurah952, posted by Lou PIlder on June 29, 2013, at 23:03:52
> Let us reason together. Do chemicals that have been used in insecticides and in the commission of mass-murder have healing properties?
Nicotine is an insecticide and a potentially useful stimulant with potential therapeutic use.> Has there ever been anyone cured by using mind-altering drugs?
How many drugs of any kind cure a chronic condition on their own? Is there a pharmaceutical cure for diabetes?Some mind-altering drugs appear to be useful at curing acute conditions. For example, I believe ibogaine is used to treat opioid withdrawal symptoms.
Mind-altering drugs can be the catalyst to make other forms of therapy effective, thus playing a part in curing various mental health issues. Psychiatric drugs in general may be enough to stabilize a patient so that they are able to benefit from other forms of therapy that ultimately cure their condition. MDMA is useful when combined with psychotherapy in treating issues like PTSD.
> Do the psychiatrists/doctors now claim that psychotropic drugs cure anything or do they now take the position that they are using the drugs to treat symptoms?
I've never met any medical professional who said psychotropic drugs cure anything.> Do chemicals address the underlying cause of depression?
The underlying cause of depression may vary, but there is no procedure to effectively determine the cause. In my case, symptoms point to a dopaminergic cause - perhaps low dopamine receptor density. There are chemicals that can apparently increase dopamine receptor density but none that work as antidepressants. However, there are chemicals that increase the amount of dopamine available, thus creating an antidepressant effect.> And if one takes these drugs for just a few weeks, can they become addicted to the drug so that if they stop the drug they could go into a hellish withdrawal and kill themselves thinking that they could never live in that state and that they would be better off dead?
"dependent" is a much better word to use here than "addicted".
Depends on the drug. Not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms. I prefer drugs and dosing patterns that do not result in major acute withdrawal symptoms upon abrupt discontinuation, but if I do take one that does, I like to have a plan and adequate supply to gradually taper or some other way to combat withdrawal. And I personally avoid long-term or frequent use of any drug that is likely to result in post-acute withdrawal syndrome.
Suicidal ideation due to a temporary unpleasant state is an unfortunate reaction, and the best way to avoid this is to prevent that temporary unpleasant state from occurring. In other words, don't abruptly discontinue any drugs with nasty withdrawal symptoms, and even better, avoid taking those drugs in the first place unless the benefits of the drug over other options outweigh the risk.
Note that sometimes abrupt discontinuation of one drug could be safe when immediately switching to a sufficiently similar drug (such as switching from a SSRI to Prozac with its long half-life), or introducing another drug that will adequately resolve withdrawal symptoms (I have used tianeptine to go cold turkey on Zoloft with minimal discomfort, for example, and as I mentioned earlier ibogaine seems to end acute opioid withdrawal symptoms)> And when the doctor/psychiatrist gives the child the drug to take and tells the parent that the child has to take it for weeks before it "works", whatever that could mean, and then the psychiatrist says to he mom to stop the drug, does not the psychiatrist know that the child now could be an addict at age 14?
"addict" is not the right word to use here.
If the doctor/psychiatrist instructs someone to abruptly discontinue a drug with major withdrawal symptoms, they were probably not competent enough to prescribe the drug in the first place. This probably happens fairly often, and that's why I try to extensively research every drug I am prescribed, especially reading a variety of anecdotal reports that may indicate issues not reported in the PI sheet or in any published articles.> And if grown people can not get off these drugs and say that the withdrawal is worse than heroin withdrawal, how could a child deal with such horror and while mom is asleep, kill themselves?
As I said before, this horror is entirely avoidable by education and finding an alternative to abrupt discontinuation.> I KNOW THE UNDERLYING CAUSE OF DEPRESSION IN CHILDREN AND HOW TO FREE THE CHILD FROM ADDICTION AND DEPRESSION
Once again, "addiction" is not the right word to use, and not every child (or adult) taking a psychiatric drug is dependent on that drug. Depression has many possible symptoms, none of which are universal among all depressed people, and many potential causes. To claim there is a single underlying cause completely contradicts all modern research into depression and mental health, and there is no universal treatment for depression or for safely discontinuing substances one may be dependent upon.
Posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 2:06:16
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP, posted by poser938 on June 29, 2013, at 20:38:44
> Laura, based on my experience, a psychiatrists information on all possible negative effects of medication will be far from complete.
A good psychiatrist will know and understand far more about the effects of a medication than they could possibly impart to a patient during patient visits. Nor would they want to. A good psychiatrist is also limited in his own knowledge due to the limitations of man's knowledge in general.
> I have experienced some brain disabling effects from psychiatric meds myself.
What are these effects?
> I went into the mental health system for mild to moderate depression in 2005. And now, what I have, I don't like to call it severe depression, but that's what it would appear as.
The appearance of a deterioration in one's state of depression over time is often representative of the natural course of the illness rather than exposure to medication. This is seen even in the absence of medication.
> What I have is a bona fire brain dysfunction caused by chemicals (medicine) that I willingly swallowed.
How do you know this given the passage of 8 years?
> My whole brain, emotion sensory system is messed up,
That's what a brain disorder like MDD and BD does to people. You don't need chemicals for that.
Personally, I do believe that many of the potent psychiatric drugs we expose ourselves to produce long-lasting effects. Some of these effects are beneficial. Some are tragic and disabling. All are far from well understood by science. This is why all of the adverse events seen during the clinical trials of a drug must be reported. They are not necessarily caused by the drug being studied, but will be listed on the package labeling for the product if it reaches market.
> I just want everyone to have fully informed consent.
Is yours yet fully-informed? Mine isn't.
> And I believe if one were to mainly make their decision to take these made based on the information their psychiatrist provides, and what is written in the patient information sheet, then they'd be making a decision based on incomplete information.
Yup.
> Just be careful. Use logic, reason. And yes, research. The best we know about these meds is that they tell the brain to function in an unnatural way.
Actually, the disease itself causes the brain to act in an unnatural way as can be seen by psychometric, metabolic, and imaging testing. Most of medicine involves using drugs that alter the course of physiology in ways that do not occur naturally. Until more is understood, I don't think we will have well-targeted treatments that eliminate undesirable side effects. Besides, each person's biology is unique and might require a customization of interventions.
One example of a long-term - perhaps irreversible - unwanted effect of antidepressants is "poop-out" and the subsequent loss of therapeutic responsivity to a particular drug after repeated exposures. For example, it is not unusual for someone to respond well to paroxetine de novo, then discontinue treatment upon remission, and thereafter remain unresponsive to its reintroduction following a rapid relapse. In other words, it appears that exposure to paroxetine has caused changes to one's biology that make them less responsive to subsequent exposures to paroxetine. It is not unreasonable to assume that there are quite a few other persistent changes that antidepressant drugs can produce.
To treat or not to treat?
One question to be asked might be whether or not it makes sense to wait another 50 years before accepting treatment so that man can more fully understand the illness being studied. That's a personal decision. For me, I felt that I had no better choice than to gamble with today's treatments and tomorrow's side effects.
I, too, have reason to believe that the misapplication of medications in a therapeutic milieu caused me to become treatment-refractory (much more so than previously). The story is a bit complicated, but still involves the making of personal observations and deductions that are really little more than temporal associations.
If left untreated, time marches forward as the disease process continues unabated. Apparently, these diseases are more degenerative than were first thought. They might even lead to the early emergence of Alzheimers Dementia. That's pretty scary stuff.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 2:16:38
In reply to Re: Lou's response-, posted by antennastoheaven on June 30, 2013, at 1:01:34
Hi.
These are excellent points.
- Scott--------------------------------------
> Nicotine is an insecticide and a potentially useful stimulant with potential therapeutic use.
> How many drugs of any kind cure a chronic condition on their own? Is there a pharmaceutical cure for diabetes?
> Some mind-altering drugs appear to be useful at curing acute conditions. For example, I believe ibogaine is used to treat opioid withdrawal symptoms.
> Mind-altering drugs can be the catalyst to make other forms of therapy effective, thus playing a part in curing various mental health issues. Psychiatric drugs in general may be enough to stabilize a patient so that they are able to benefit from other forms of therapy that ultimately cure their condition. MDMA is useful when combined with psychotherapy in treating issues like PTSD.
> I've never met any medical professional who said psychotropic drugs cure anything.
> The underlying cause of depression may vary, but there is no procedure to effectively determine the cause. In my case, symptoms point to a dopaminergic cause - perhaps low dopamine receptor density. There are chemicals that can apparently increase dopamine receptor density but none that work as antidepressants. However, there are chemicals that increase the amount of dopamine available, thus creating an antidepressant effect.
> "dependent" is a much better word to use here than "addicted".> Depends on the drug. Not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms. I prefer drugs and dosing patterns that do not result in major acute withdrawal symptoms upon abrupt discontinuation, but if I do take one that does, I like to have a plan and adequate supply to gradually taper or some other way to combat withdrawal. And I personally avoid long-term or frequent use of any drug that is likely to result in post-acute withdrawal syndrome.
> Suicidal ideation due to a temporary unpleasant state is an unfortunate reaction, and the best way to avoid this is to prevent that temporary unpleasant state from occurring. In other words, don't abruptly discontinue any drugs with nasty withdrawal symptoms, and even better, avoid taking those drugs in the first place unless the benefits of the drug over other options outweigh the risk.
> Note that sometimes abrupt discontinuation of one drug could be safe when immediately switching to a sufficiently similar drug (such as switching from a SSRI to Prozac with its long half-life), or introducing another drug that will adequately resolve withdrawal symptoms (I have used tianeptine to go cold turkey on Zoloft with minimal discomfort, for example, and as I mentioned earlier ibogaine seems to end acute opioid withdrawal symptoms)
> "addict" is not the right word to use here.> If the doctor/psychiatrist instructs someone to abruptly discontinue a drug with major withdrawal symptoms, they were probably not competent enough to prescribe the drug in the first place. This probably happens fairly often, and that's why I try to extensively research every drug I am prescribed, especially reading a variety of anecdotal reports that may indicate issues not reported in the PI sheet or in any published articles.
> As I said before, this horror is entirely avoidable by education and finding an alternative to abrupt discontinuation.
> Once again, "addiction" is not the right word to use, and not every child (or adult) taking a psychiatric drug is dependent on that drug. Depression has many possible symptoms, none of which are universal among all depressed people, and many potential causes. To claim there is a single underlying cause completely contradicts all modern research into depression and mental health, and there is no universal treatment for depression or for safely discontinuing substances one may be dependent upon.
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 30, 2013, at 7:58:39
In reply to Re: Lou's response-, posted by antennastoheaven on June 30, 2013, at 1:01:34
> > Let us reason together. Do chemicals that have been used in insecticides and in the commission of mass-murder have healing properties?
> Nicotine is an insecticide and a potentially useful stimulant with potential therapeutic use.
>
> > Has there ever been anyone cured by using mind-altering drugs?
> How many drugs of any kind cure a chronic condition on their own? Is there a pharmaceutical cure for diabetes?
>
> Some mind-altering drugs appear to be useful at curing acute conditions. For example, I believe ibogaine is used to treat opioid withdrawal symptoms.
>
> Mind-altering drugs can be the catalyst to make other forms of therapy effective, thus playing a part in curing various mental health issues. Psychiatric drugs in general may be enough to stabilize a patient so that they are able to benefit from other forms of therapy that ultimately cure their condition. MDMA is useful when combined with psychotherapy in treating issues like PTSD.
>
> > Do the psychiatrists/doctors now claim that psychotropic drugs cure anything or do they now take the position that they are using the drugs to treat symptoms?
> I've never met any medical professional who said psychotropic drugs cure anything.
>
> > Do chemicals address the underlying cause of depression?
> The underlying cause of depression may vary, but there is no procedure to effectively determine the cause. In my case, symptoms point to a dopaminergic cause - perhaps low dopamine receptor density. There are chemicals that can apparently increase dopamine receptor density but none that work as antidepressants. However, there are chemicals that increase the amount of dopamine available, thus creating an antidepressant effect.
>
> > And if one takes these drugs for just a few weeks, can they become addicted to the drug so that if they stop the drug they could go into a hellish withdrawal and kill themselves thinking that they could never live in that state and that they would be better off dead?
> "dependent" is a much better word to use here than "addicted".
> Depends on the drug. Not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms. I prefer drugs and dosing patterns that do not result in major acute withdrawal symptoms upon abrupt discontinuation, but if I do take one that does, I like to have a plan and adequate supply to gradually taper or some other way to combat withdrawal. And I personally avoid long-term or frequent use of any drug that is likely to result in post-acute withdrawal syndrome.
> Suicidal ideation due to a temporary unpleasant state is an unfortunate reaction, and the best way to avoid this is to prevent that temporary unpleasant state from occurring. In other words, don't abruptly discontinue any drugs with nasty withdrawal symptoms, and even better, avoid taking those drugs in the first place unless the benefits of the drug over other options outweigh the risk.
> Note that sometimes abrupt discontinuation of one drug could be safe when immediately switching to a sufficiently similar drug (such as switching from a SSRI to Prozac with its long half-life), or introducing another drug that will adequately resolve withdrawal symptoms (I have used tianeptine to go cold turkey on Zoloft with minimal discomfort, for example, and as I mentioned earlier ibogaine seems to end acute opioid withdrawal symptoms)
>
> > And when the doctor/psychiatrist gives the child the drug to take and tells the parent that the child has to take it for weeks before it "works", whatever that could mean, and then the psychiatrist says to he mom to stop the drug, does not the psychiatrist know that the child now could be an addict at age 14?
> "addict" is not the right word to use here.
> If the doctor/psychiatrist instructs someone to abruptly discontinue a drug with major withdrawal symptoms, they were probably not competent enough to prescribe the drug in the first place. This probably happens fairly often, and that's why I try to extensively research every drug I am prescribed, especially reading a variety of anecdotal reports that may indicate issues not reported in the PI sheet or in any published articles.
>
> > And if grown people can not get off these drugs and say that the withdrawal is worse than heroin withdrawal, how could a child deal with such horror and while mom is asleep, kill themselves?
> As I said before, this horror is entirely avoidable by education and finding an alternative to abrupt discontinuation.
>
> > I KNOW THE UNDERLYING CAUSE OF DEPRESSION IN CHILDREN AND HOW TO FREE THE CHILD FROM ADDICTION AND DEPRESSION
> Once again, "addiction" is not the right word to use, and not every child (or adult) taking a psychiatric drug is dependent on that drug. Depression has many possible symptoms, none of which are universal among all depressed people, and many potential causes. To claim there is a single underlying cause completely contradicts all modern research into depression and mental health, and there is no universal treatment for depression or for safely discontinuing substances one may be dependent upon.antennastoheaven,
You wrote,[...not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms...]
If your claim here means that you know which drugs do, and which drugs do not have major withdrawal symptoms, then if you could post answers here to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What is a major withdrawal symptom?
B. What is not a major withdrawal symptom
C. Some drugs that have major withdrawal symptoms are:
D. Some drugs that do not have major withdrawal symptoms are:
E. Do you or do you not advise a mother to drug their child in collaboration with a psychiatrist with Zoloft and/or Seroquel combined or alone?
Lou
For interested readers, here is a video. To see this video:
A. Pull up Google
B Tpe in:
[youtube,GOgHIA0aMKE]
Dr. Gary Kohls
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 30, 2013, at 8:06:16
In reply to Lou's request-mehyjoar » antennastoheaven, posted by Lou Pilder on June 30, 2013, at 7:58:39
> > > Let us reason together. Do chemicals that have been used in insecticides and in the commission of mass-murder have healing properties?
> > Nicotine is an insecticide and a potentially useful stimulant with potential therapeutic use.
> >
> > > Has there ever been anyone cured by using mind-altering drugs?
> > How many drugs of any kind cure a chronic condition on their own? Is there a pharmaceutical cure for diabetes?
> >
> > Some mind-altering drugs appear to be useful at curing acute conditions. For example, I believe ibogaine is used to treat opioid withdrawal symptoms.
> >
> > Mind-altering drugs can be the catalyst to make other forms of therapy effective, thus playing a part in curing various mental health issues. Psychiatric drugs in general may be enough to stabilize a patient so that they are able to benefit from other forms of therapy that ultimately cure their condition. MDMA is useful when combined with psychotherapy in treating issues like PTSD.
> >
> > > Do the psychiatrists/doctors now claim that psychotropic drugs cure anything or do they now take the position that they are using the drugs to treat symptoms?
> > I've never met any medical professional who said psychotropic drugs cure anything.
> >
> > > Do chemicals address the underlying cause of depression?
> > The underlying cause of depression may vary, but there is no procedure to effectively determine the cause. In my case, symptoms point to a dopaminergic cause - perhaps low dopamine receptor density. There are chemicals that can apparently increase dopamine receptor density but none that work as antidepressants. However, there are chemicals that increase the amount of dopamine available, thus creating an antidepressant effect.
> >
> > > And if one takes these drugs for just a few weeks, can they become addicted to the drug so that if they stop the drug they could go into a hellish withdrawal and kill themselves thinking that they could never live in that state and that they would be better off dead?
> > "dependent" is a much better word to use here than "addicted".
> > Depends on the drug. Not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms. I prefer drugs and dosing patterns that do not result in major acute withdrawal symptoms upon abrupt discontinuation, but if I do take one that does, I like to have a plan and adequate supply to gradually taper or some other way to combat withdrawal. And I personally avoid long-term or frequent use of any drug that is likely to result in post-acute withdrawal syndrome.
> > Suicidal ideation due to a temporary unpleasant state is an unfortunate reaction, and the best way to avoid this is to prevent that temporary unpleasant state from occurring. In other words, don't abruptly discontinue any drugs with nasty withdrawal symptoms, and even better, avoid taking those drugs in the first place unless the benefits of the drug over other options outweigh the risk.
> > Note that sometimes abrupt discontinuation of one drug could be safe when immediately switching to a sufficiently similar drug (such as switching from a SSRI to Prozac with its long half-life), or introducing another drug that will adequately resolve withdrawal symptoms (I have used tianeptine to go cold turkey on Zoloft with minimal discomfort, for example, and as I mentioned earlier ibogaine seems to end acute opioid withdrawal symptoms)
> >
> > > And when the doctor/psychiatrist gives the child the drug to take and tells the parent that the child has to take it for weeks before it "works", whatever that could mean, and then the psychiatrist says to he mom to stop the drug, does not the psychiatrist know that the child now could be an addict at age 14?
> > "addict" is not the right word to use here.
> > If the doctor/psychiatrist instructs someone to abruptly discontinue a drug with major withdrawal symptoms, they were probably not competent enough to prescribe the drug in the first place. This probably happens fairly often, and that's why I try to extensively research every drug I am prescribed, especially reading a variety of anecdotal reports that may indicate issues not reported in the PI sheet or in any published articles.
> >
> > > And if grown people can not get off these drugs and say that the withdrawal is worse than heroin withdrawal, how could a child deal with such horror and while mom is asleep, kill themselves?
> > As I said before, this horror is entirely avoidable by education and finding an alternative to abrupt discontinuation.
> >
> > > I KNOW THE UNDERLYING CAUSE OF DEPRESSION IN CHILDREN AND HOW TO FREE THE CHILD FROM ADDICTION AND DEPRESSION
> > Once again, "addiction" is not the right word to use, and not every child (or adult) taking a psychiatric drug is dependent on that drug. Depression has many possible symptoms, none of which are universal among all depressed people, and many potential causes. To claim there is a single underlying cause completely contradicts all modern research into depression and mental health, and there is no universal treatment for depression or for safely discontinuing substances one may be dependent upon.
>
> antennastoheaven,
> You wrote,[...not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms...]
> If your claim here means that you know which drugs do, and which drugs do not have major withdrawal symptoms, then if you could post answers here to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. What is a major withdrawal symptom?
> B. What is not a major withdrawal symptom
> C. Some drugs that have major withdrawal symptoms are:
> D. Some drugs that do not have major withdrawal symptoms are:
> E. Do you or do you not advise a mother to drug their child in collaboration with a psychiatrist with Zoloft and/or Seroquel combined or alone?
> Lou
> For interested readers, here is a video. To see this video:
> A. Pull up Google
> B Tpe in:
> [youtube,GOgHIA0aMKE]
> Dr. Gary KohlsFriends,
To see the video, bring up Google and type in:
[psychotropic drugs, The Hidden Dangers, Dr Gary Kohls]
Posted by 10derheart on June 30, 2013, at 11:34:08
In reply to Lou's response- » laurah952, posted by Lou PIlder on June 29, 2013, at 23:03:52
Is this post part of your apology to laura, Lou?
If so, I find it sorely lacking. I find it.....well, the descriptors are things I cannot post here.
I don't know what to say any more.
Posted by herpills on June 30, 2013, at 12:23:28
In reply to 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP, posted by laurah952 on June 27, 2013, at 14:02:32
>
> My daughter still has her own appt. there, but not for a while. In the meantime, do you think the Zoloft is a bad idea? (I could up Seroquel a bit, and down the Zoloft to 50mg, for a start) The pdoc she was seeing, told me to "do whatever I wanted".
>
> Thanks in advance for any help/opinions,
> LauraI'm concerned about a doctor that gives a little too much choice for the patient. I think I read something in another post of yours a similar comment from your doctor. You really need someone to guide you in this situation. Coming here is certainly helpful, but we are not doctors. I'm sorry you are going through this and I will wish a good recovery for your daughter. herpills
Posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 12:24:51
In reply to Lou's response- » laurah952, posted by Lou PIlder on June 29, 2013, at 23:03:52
> Let us reason together.
Reasoning without accurate facts and sufficient understanding often yields disastrous results.
- Scott
Posted by Emme_V2 on June 30, 2013, at 12:26:49
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » SLS, posted by laurah952 on June 29, 2013, at 12:54:21
> > As I mentioned in a previous post, there is certainly some concern as to what effects antidepressants can have on a maturing brain. This remains largely unknown. If I had a child with bipolar disorder, I would opt to try psychotherapy first, followed by lithium and anticonvulsant mood stabilizers. I would then consider the need for neuroleptic antipsychotics and antidepressants. It often comes down to evaluating risk/cost versus benefit. Ideally, one would want to be treated by a pediatric psychiatrist.
>
> From what I've seen, Taylor's therapist uses a combined strategy of both psychotherapy and CBT. Taylor sees her once a week, and responds most positively. It's difficult to sit out, and not be privy to all that is said, but I know that in order for therapy to work for her, she needs to be able to open up completely. As you may know, I have a new adolescent psychiatrist for Taylor, but we must go through the intake process first. I thought a medical work-up was done while she was an inpatient in the adolescent psychiatric hospital. Since I have not gotten any results, I will ask what tests should be done, and go from there. I will also be asking about a bi-polar diagnosis, as opposed to the original MDD diagnosis. I have pages of notes on my observations of Taylor that I formed into letters addressing both her therapist, and her previous pdoc. I will bring them with me to her intake on Monday.
>
> I will research and take the lists of medications you have so graciously provided me to her new pdoc. Thank you for that!
>
> >
> > Personally, I would not deny a child an > > antidepressant or antipsychotic if it would keep them alive and thriving. Close monitoring during the first 4 - 6 weeks should effectively screen for a negative reaction to the drugs being trialed.
>
> Although I am questioning long term effects, I will not deny her medications that will keep her alive and well. I will be researching, and asking the pdoc about all possible negative side effects of any med she takes. I will also monitor closely her moods, especially her suicidal ideations and cutting.
>
>
> > If ADHD is present, perhaps using a mood stabilizer and stimulant would be considered.
>
> She may have ADD, but I haven't seen the hyperactivity index since she was much younger. (unless constant leg/knee shaking when sitting is a factor)
>
> Taylor has always been a sweet, caring, and loving child. She's never been in any trouble, and other parents always comment on what a polite girl she is. She's also very sensitive, and "stuffs" resentments/anger instead of letting them out. She has incredible low self esteem despite her beauty, loving demeanor, talents, and the hard work she employs in school. (final grade average for the year is an 89, despite all she's been through) She believes that she is a burden, and this scares me as her perception is way off.
>
> I'm sorry for the long post; I'm just going to continue to fight for her as diligently as I'm able...
>
> Thank you so much, Scott, and everyone who's helped by answering my questions and providing information and support.
>
> - Laura
>
>
Hi Laura,I've been following a few of the posts on this thread, and although I don't have any specific thoughts to offer med-wise, I do think your approach towards helping your daughter is really great. You're asking good questions, staying on top of the right information, taking an intelligent and pragmatic approach. You're doing an amazing job with a difficult illness.
I hope her new pdoc has some great ideas. I know for myself that a knowledgeable pdoc and appropriate meds have made all the difference in the world. It can take a lot of patience to find the right treatment, but it is so worth it to have relief from horrible symptoms.
Good luck to you and Taylor.
Emme
Posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 12:37:49
In reply to Re: Lou's response- » Lou PIlder, posted by 10derheart on June 30, 2013, at 11:34:08
> Is this post part of your apology to laura, Lou?
> I don't know what to say any more.I found what you said here to be very helpful. Sometimes, less is more.
:-)
I hope life is treating you well.
- Scott
Posted by antennastoheaven on June 30, 2013, at 15:25:39
In reply to Lou's request-mehyjoar » antennastoheaven, posted by Lou Pilder on June 30, 2013, at 7:58:39
> You wrote,[...not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms...]
> If your claim here means that you know which drugs do, and which drugs do not have major withdrawal symptoms, then if you could post answers here to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
No, that is not what I mean. Please do not put words in my mouth.I know not every drug has major acute withdrawal symptoms because I have taken drugs and abruptly discontinued them before. Wellbutrin is generally easy to quit. I have very little knowledge of drugs I have not taken.
> A. What is a major withdrawal symptom?
Subjective.I would consider any symptom that causes major impairment in life function that isn't related to the desirable action of the drug no longer working. If you aren't sleeping very much anymore, or are too ill to go out of the house, that is major.
> B. What is not a major withdrawal symptom
Also subjective.I would not consider caffeine withdrawal headaches a major withdrawal symptom. If you have headaches that aren't severe, or feel a little tired and unmotivated but still capable of going out and doing things, that's not major.
> C. Some drugs that have major withdrawal symptoms are:
Most of them, for many people, when taken long enough, when discontinued abruptly.However withdrawal symptoms can generally be avoided or greatly reduced. Unfortunately many medical professionals are not knowledgeable in this regard.
> D. Some drugs that do not have major withdrawal symptoms are:
Wellbutrin, from my experience.> E. Do you or do you not advise a mother to drug their child in collaboration with a psychiatrist with Zoloft and/or Seroquel combined or alone?
How can anyone make that judgment based on a few words exchanged on the Internet? Such a decision should be made with full knowledge of the patient's symptoms, how these symptoms impair their ability to enjoy life, the expected effects of those drugs on the symptoms, the potential side effects of taking those drugs, expected period they'll be on those drugs, and the risk of having to discontinue those drugs.
For some, taking medications now (even if it means withdrawal later) may be worth it. I can say that Zoloft was so effective at killing crippling anxiety that the withdrawal was worth it (the mania side effect was not though).It seems many psychiatrists are too quick to write prescriptions to make a thorough decision, which is why it's great that there's resources like this site so individuals can learn more and ask for input from others. Unfortunately sometimes these sites have bad information.
Posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 15:28:47
In reply to correction: Lou's request-Dr. Gary Kohls, posted by Lou Pilder on June 30, 2013, at 8:06:16
I forgot to mention that I reset the subject line.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on June 30, 2013, at 18:28:52
In reply to 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 15:28:47
Despicable is all I can say to Lou. Seriously I feel you have hurt a very caring Mom and chased her away. Was this your purpose? Something I feel Is definitely wrong when one can post in this manner. Reminds me of a suicidal person posting such and when a time Dr Bob sent the authorities. Maybe same should be taken almost as threat and same actions taken. Who are you? Phillipa
Posted by poser938 on June 30, 2013, at 20:41:07
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP, posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 2:06:16
Scott, are you okay?
I've talked about my condition ever since I've been on this site. And I've told you what I've experienced many times, and yet you are acting like this is the first time I've brought it up. All I sound like is a broken record on this site and when talking to a psychiatrist. Because I repeat my experience over and over and each and every person says my condition is likely just a worsening of my normal depression and is unlikely if impossible to be related to medications.Went through 17 years of life being a normal functioning kid. Just normal growing up, experiencing puberty. Emotions becoming more complex as I grew. Became mildly depressed. Then took medicine for this. from this point on THE ONLY TIME MY MOOD CHANGED IN A DRASTIC WAY FOR THE WORSE WAS WHILE TAKING A PSYCHIATRIC MED. These changes in mood persist long, long, looking after stopping the Med.
The last one I took that had a brain disabling effect on me was Mirapex. Before taking it, I guess I was 75% my normal self. About 5 weeks after starting it I took my dose and a few hours later severe, disabling depression kicked in. I'm like this to this day.
I made the decision to start meds based on lies from the psychiatric community and have dealt with disastrous results ever since.
Based on the advice I get on this site as well as socialanxietysupport.com, I do not belong on these sites. I'm told I just need to be medicated to treat my progressing depression.
I know I don't belong in a psychiatrists office.
I don't belong in a psychiatric hospital.
I don't belong in the real world because I'm unable to reach anywhere close to thriving.So if the only advice out there to remedy my dire situation is the same BS that is spewed out by the majority of people on this site, then I conclude I belong in a grave.
I hate repeating myself over and over and over only to be told I'm just mistaken or delusional for 8 years now. I can't stand being alive.
Posted by Phillipa on June 30, 2013, at 20:49:37
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP, posted by poser938 on June 30, 2013, at 20:41:07
Poser I hear you. Phillipa
Posted by poser938 on June 30, 2013, at 20:51:07
In reply to Re: 14yo daughter - bi-polar, not MDD - new info HELP, posted by SLS on June 30, 2013, at 2:06:16
And SLS, it has gotten old with you asking me every question in because you want to pretend you are oblivious to what I explained in the past. Why? My guess is to entertain the hopes of the new poster that getting involved in psychiatry is the answer.
I explain my condition and how it happened because I want the whole world to know every side of psychiatry.
And Lou belongs on this site just as much as anyone. Some want him silenced because he piles on the horrors of psychiatry. He wouldn't behave like he does if so many citizens weren't sheep for the psychiatric system.
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