![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 93. Go back in thread:
Posted by joe schmoe on March 2, 2013, at 11:23:29
In reply to Re: melatonin for insomnia » joe schmoe, posted by gadchik on March 1, 2013, at 16:41:10
Well the melatonin didn't help me stay asleep, and in fact it gave me rather frightful medical-related nightmares. Ugh.
Of course I am in the first days of another dosage drop in the clonazepam so that may be just too powerful an effect to overcome. I will keep trying it.
Posted by gadchik on March 2, 2013, at 12:16:30
In reply to Re: melatonin for insomnia » gadchik, posted by joe schmoe on March 2, 2013, at 11:23:29
Im sorry to hear that melatonin did not help,and it sounds like you had a rough night to boot. I guess I can cross that one off my list of helpful meds for benzo withdrawal. Have you tried remeron? I wonder if it would work for sleep in your situation? I have taken a crumb of that when Ive had trouble sleeping and it works,but next day hangover is not good.
Posted by phidippus on March 2, 2013, at 15:29:44
In reply to Re: 10+ years of Klonopin, poop out, tapering? » phidippus, posted by joe schmoe on March 1, 2013, at 19:55:58
Did you know that studies show Topomax is a good treatment for social anxiety?
Eric
Posted by joe schmoe on March 3, 2013, at 11:18:17
In reply to Re: melatonin for insomnia » gadchik, posted by joe schmoe on March 2, 2013, at 11:23:29
Well last night I didn't have a nightmare, so that is a relief.
The melatonin does seem to make me really tired shortly after taking it. I think it does help me get to sleep. It will be interesting to see if it helps me stay asleep, it hasn't for the last two nights but like I said, the first few days of a dosage drop are particularly brutal.
Posted by joe schmoe on March 10, 2013, at 9:36:46
In reply to Re: melatonin for insomnia, posted by joe schmoe on March 3, 2013, at 11:18:17
Well I have been at 1/8 of a mg for the last ten days. I am thinking about stopping it later this week. I wonder if 1/8 is too large for a last dose, or whether I am ok to stop taking it altogether at that dose. After the first couple of days of going from 1/4 to 1/8, I have felt pretty good. Less side effects throughout the week and my mood seems to be improving more and more as I taper off clonazepam. I am starting to wonder if it was making me depressed. Note I am on celexa 20 mg.
Posted by Phillipa on March 10, 2013, at 10:10:41
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose?, posted by joe schmoe on March 10, 2013, at 9:36:46
Joe I couldn't take klonopin as you probably already know as posted before but it sure could be the reason for depression. As for the celexa at 20mg do you feel it does anything. Seriously I've cut luvox to 12.5mg and upped it's sister lexapro to 7.5mg and find I don't sleep nearly as well. I also feel strange. Still taking low dose benzos. Years ago I found I felt better minus ad's and just benzos? I did take celexa and found it completly different from lexapro? I'm glad you have been able to cut down. Goal off all benzos? Phillipa
Posted by gadchik on March 10, 2013, at 12:15:06
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » joe schmoe, posted by Phillipa on March 10, 2013, at 10:10:41
Thanks for sharing ur success in tapering k. I know its hard, but seems like u have done well. This gives others hope that they too can do this. I would ask a pharmacist about the last drop. Congrats!!!
Posted by joe schmoe on March 10, 2013, at 12:32:40
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » joe schmoe, posted by Phillipa on March 10, 2013, at 10:10:41
> As for the celexa at 20mg do you feel it does anything.
Yes I've been off it a number of times and I always relapse into depression without it after four or five months. I also think it helps me with general stress and rejection sensitivity. My mother can tell just from the sound of my voice on the phone whether I am on it or not.
>Seriously I've cut luvox to 12.5mg and upped it's sister lexapro to 7.5mg and find I don't sleep nearly as well.
I have no experience with luvox and little with lexapro since it was not generic for a long time and thus more expensive. I haven't tried it since it went generic since celexa seems to work for me most of the time.
> I also feel strange.
I have felt strange on most meds I have tried, LOL. Especially AD's. Had to give up Viibryd after six months because I was feeling weirder and weirder.
> Still taking low dose benzos. Years ago I found I felt better minus ad's and just benzos? I did take celexa and found it completly different from lexapro? I'm glad you have been able to cut down. Goal off all benzos? Phillipa
I have tried just clonazepam and no AD's several times and I tend to get depressed.
Right now I seem to be functioning fairly well on almost no clonazepam at all, so I think I am going to go back to just taking it if I have a serious social performance situation like a job interview or presentation.
Posted by joe schmoe on March 10, 2013, at 12:35:38
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose?, posted by gadchik on March 10, 2013, at 12:15:06
> Thanks for sharing ur success in tapering k. I know its hard, but seems like u have done well. This gives others hope that they too can do this. I would ask a pharmacist about the last drop. Congrats!!!
Well I'm not off it yet but I am close. Been tapering for about 3 and a half months.
Posted by gadchik on March 11, 2013, at 15:19:52
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » gadchik, posted by joe schmoe on March 10, 2013, at 12:35:38
Joe, would you mind telling me the key points you learned in tapering klonopin, and your thoughts about how you felt/feel? What should I know about it? Thanks!
Posted by joe schmoe on March 12, 2013, at 19:08:03
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » joe schmoe, posted by gadchik on March 11, 2013, at 15:19:52
> Joe, would you mind telling me the key points you learned in tapering klonopin, and your thoughts about how you felt/feel? What should I know about it? Thanks!
Well,
Today was the first day I took no clonazepam at all, so the next week should be interesting! Doing ok so far. As far as points:
First of all I read the Ashton web site stuff about benzo withdrawals and all the weird sensations and experiences I might have. So I was prepared. I have to come to view these effects as proof that I am making progress in withdrawal. It is somewhat similar to how I have learned to interpret stomach grumbling/hunger as a sign that I am losing weight while on a diet. I take a positive view of an unpleasant sensation. If I feel weird, it means my brain is healing. In the same vein I force myself to engage people at work in conversation, in meetings etc. despite feeling unpleasant from the withdrawal/social anxiety. I feel better knowing I can still function if I try and they can't tell what I am going through. It is a process and it will have unpleasant sensations and moments, but they are just proof that my body is adjusting to a life without clonazepam. Each time I lower the dose, the sensations reappear, but fade again over time as I march onward. Soon they will be gone.
Second, alcohol relaxes me wonderfully in the evening. It seems to have a much stronger effect as I taper down. I have put on weight from drinking too much, but it does provide a way to get through the taper without relapsing into taking more clonazepam. I intend to cut way back on alcohol once I am through. For the moment I use it as a way to get through this.
Third, lack of sleep worsens my social anxiety. This is something I had noticed far in the past before I took clonazepam. Now it has come into focus again, since it manifests in a different way: lack of sleep worsens my withdrawal symptoms. I have been feeling pretty good for the last week - lowered my dose ten days ago and felt pretty good within 3 or 4 days - but today I felt weird again (tingling lips and face, numb hands upon awakening, etc) due to poor sleep last night. The poor sleep was caused, I think, due to excessive drinking last night. So the alcohol relief can come at a price if you overdo it. Bottom line is to get as much quality sleep as you can. I think melatonin helps and I plan to take it again tonight (didn't take it the past few days). Not drinking would probably help even more, but I need a little relief now and then.
Frankly the worst withdrawal effects (tight muscles, stiff neck, social panic etc) seemed to occur in the middle of the taper more than now. I feel like I am almost out of the woods. We will see how I fare on no clonazepam at all in the coming days. Today wasn't too bad.
Every time I lower the dose I get carb cravings for junk food like Cheetos, and also increased libido and sexual sensation, for awhile. Like alcohol, the junk food can be used in moderation as a treat to help you get through the worst parts of a dose lowering. Similarly, having something pleasurable to look forward to (good sex or masturbation) can also function as a positive point in an otherwise grueling process. I take my pleasures where I can find them, especially when undergoing something like this. I think it is important to have little things to focus on and look forward to as a counterpoint to the unpleasant parts of the withdrawal.
And as I've written before, the sheer variety and unpredictability of the withdrawal effects can be a source of entertainment and amusement, as you wonder what you will experience next. You just have to remember that it all will pass, and the fact you are experiencing them is proof you are on the way up.
My mood has improved quite a bit during the withdrawal even as I was undergoing these symptoms. So I think clonazepam was depressing me.
I have been on celexa since last summer (I have been on and off it several times over the years) and I think it has helped with the withdrawal and keeping down general anxiety.
Posted by gadchik on March 12, 2013, at 19:25:40
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » gadchik, posted by joe schmoe on March 12, 2013, at 19:08:03
Thanks for putting your experience into words.This first hand account has been invaluable to me, and I will save it to read more thoroughly. You have pointed out a way of thinking that I hadnt considered when attempting to taper. This is immensely helpful.I have been particularly interested in your story because you have been taking klonopin for years. Thanks for a new perspective. And good luck without it,but it seems you will do well.
Posted by joe schmoe on March 13, 2013, at 16:56:12
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » joe schmoe, posted by gadchik on March 12, 2013, at 19:25:40
> Thanks for putting your experience into words.This first hand account has been invaluable to me, and I will save it to read more thoroughly. You have pointed out a way of thinking that I hadnt considered when attempting to taper. This is immensely helpful.I have been particularly interested in your story because you have been taking klonopin for years. Thanks for a new perspective. And good luck without it,but it seems you will do well.
>
>Glad it was helpful.
Been 60 hours since I took a clonazepam.
First time without it in about 12 years.
Still kickin'.
This beer feels good.
Posted by gadchik on March 13, 2013, at 18:27:05
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » gadchik, posted by joe schmoe on March 13, 2013, at 16:56:12
Glad u can enjoy a beer! Thats one thing I had to give up for klonopin. I couldnt handle the light headedness. I will attempt another taper when I return from nyc. I will try to get down to .25mg and stay there for awhile, until I feel secure. I fear it,but, as they say, the only thing to fear is fear itself...
Posted by joe schmoe on March 14, 2013, at 16:39:18
In reply to Re: klonopin last dose? » joe schmoe, posted by gadchik on March 13, 2013, at 18:27:05
Posted by gadchik on March 14, 2013, at 17:22:29
In reply to 3.5 days since my last klonopin - doing good (nm), posted by joe schmoe on March 14, 2013, at 16:39:18
Posted by joe schmoe on March 16, 2013, at 7:51:09
In reply to Amazing outcome, after all those years!goodtohear! (nm) » joe schmoe, posted by gadchik on March 14, 2013, at 17:22:29
Think I'm gonna make it! :)
I am surprised that stopping it altogether (from 1/8 of a mg, after a 3 month taper from 2 mg of course) has not been nearly as bad as some of the dosage decreases during the taper. I was expecting the end to be the worst part, but really the drop from 1/4 to 1/8 mg, and 1/8 mg to zero, were both much better than some of the earlier dosage drops.
1/8 mg was one-quarter of a 1/2 mg tablet, which you can practically do with your fingers, but I used a pill cutter to try to keep the dosages fairly even.
Melatonin is helping me to get a deeper sleep, I wake up feeling more refreshed, even though I still wake up sometimes. I think the booze is hurting my quality of sleep and I plan to cut back to one drink a day this week.
Posted by gadchik on March 17, 2013, at 16:50:19
In reply to Five days since my last klonopin (after 12 years), posted by joe schmoe on March 16, 2013, at 7:51:09
So glad to hear that you are still doing well. You give courage to others who may be going through this.:)
Posted by alexcanada on March 23, 2013, at 12:09:15
In reply to Five days since my last klonopin (after 12 years), posted by joe schmoe on March 16, 2013, at 7:51:09
I been at 2.5mg valium for a while but recently dropped to 2mg these past 4+ days. So far I am getting lot less sleep. Past two days woke up with some sweating. dreams eventually become bit vivid. usually feel off and bit weird after waking. usually i can sleep for 2-3 hours then wake up middle of the night and can take time to fall asleep again. more than 5 hours of sleep per night is difficult. My mood is also usually darker. not easy to think. difficult to enjoy anything. sometimes headaches.
This withdrawal has been a long time coming. I used to take over 5mg a day a few months ago. and 10mg months before that.
I'm considering taking gabapentin at night. Would this be wise? Overall it is capable of making me feel more positive but makes me feel dumb. it gives bit of a lift.
My dose is usually about 0.5mg in late morning or noon. then 0.7mg early evening and 0.8mg at night.
such poor mood, very low drive interest motivation
> Think I'm gonna make it! :)
>
> I am surprised that stopping it altogether (from 1/8 of a mg, after a 3 month taper from 2 mg of course) has not been nearly as bad as some of the dosage decreases during the taper. I was expecting the end to be the worst part, but really the drop from 1/4 to 1/8 mg, and 1/8 mg to zero, were both much better than some of the earlier dosage drops.
>
> 1/8 mg was one-quarter of a 1/2 mg tablet, which you can practically do with your fingers, but I used a pill cutter to try to keep the dosages fairly even.
>
> Melatonin is helping me to get a deeper sleep, I wake up feeling more refreshed, even though I still wake up sometimes. I think the booze is hurting my quality of sleep and I plan to cut back to one drink a day this week.
Posted by joe schmoe on March 23, 2013, at 12:26:35
In reply to My withdrawal is troublesome so far » joe schmoe, posted by alexcanada on March 23, 2013, at 12:09:15
Lack of sleep can aggravate the withdrawal symptoms quite a bit, I think. I am finding melatonin to be quite a help with getting deeper more refreshing sleep.
I do tend to wake up around 3 AM, but I usually can get back to sleep before long. This is actually a normal sleep pattern. There have been some articles recently about the historical evidence that humans always had a "first sleep" and a "second sleep" with several hours in between, until the invention of electric lighting.
I think people who get stressed out about waking up in the middle of the night, are compounding the problem. It is kind of a pain, but an easy solution might be to go to bed earlier and schedule some "evening" activity for the time between first and second sleep, if you have trouble getting back to sleep right away. That way you could work with this sleep pattern instead of fighting it and ending up with not enough sleep total.
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2013, at 21:02:04
In reply to Re: My withdrawal is troublesome so far » alexcanada, posted by joe schmoe on March 23, 2013, at 12:26:35
You are so right. Been my normal sleep pattern for so many years. I take part of the valium and save the rest for when I wake and use bathroom, take synthroid and go back to sleep easily. And sleep. Phillipa
Posted by alexcanada on March 24, 2013, at 23:10:40
In reply to Re: My withdrawal is troublesome so far » alexcanada, posted by joe schmoe on March 23, 2013, at 12:26:35
normally i have not suffered from frequent awakenings. i used to be able to sleep for several hours in a row. now i wake up every 2-3 hours with a few exceptions and it often takes an extremely long time to fall asleep.
i may try some magnesium citrate tonight as i do not have melatonin.
i had to take a nap in middle of the day due to exhaustion but it took at least 2 hours to fall asleep.
perhaps it will ease up but i have been on benzos for around 6 years or more and have never been able to successfully withdrawal. when i was fully off valium for a number of weeks my mood became darker, anxiety filled, and extremely dysphoric. it felt dark and frightening. then upon starting up again of course i felt better with sufficient dose.
these days my withdrawal is much slower. from 10mg last year i'm now down to 2mg. last week it was 2.5mg. my mood is extremely poor though most of the time. i'm very withdrawn.
it's difficult to know what is my baseline anymore and what might be withdrawal but i know when i did a quick withdrawal for a day I initially felt better. Was easier to think and I was able to be more emotionally invested in things. the darkness and dysphoria would emerge the day after. though that initial feeling of better mental health was very promising. So i want to withdrawal from this mind numbing amnesia inducing garbage. my memory is mildly improving on lower dose.
these days have been rough. it's so difficult to speak to anyone. my depression is worse. very anti-social.
but i may be starting clomipramine tomorrow. perhaps it will make things more manageable. i really dont know what to expect.
> Lack of sleep can aggravate the withdrawal symptoms quite a bit, I think. I am finding melatonin to be quite a help with getting deeper more refreshing sleep.
>
> I do tend to wake up around 3 AM, but I usually can get back to sleep before long. This is actually a normal sleep pattern. There have been some articles recently about the historical evidence that humans always had a "first sleep" and a "second sleep" with several hours in between, until the invention of electric lighting.
>
> I think people who get stressed out about waking up in the middle of the night, are compounding the problem. It is kind of a pain, but an easy solution might be to go to bed earlier and schedule some "evening" activity for the time between first and second sleep, if you have trouble getting back to sleep right away. That way you could work with this sleep pattern instead of fighting it and ending up with not enough sleep total.
Posted by joe schmoe on March 25, 2013, at 6:54:29
In reply to never been able to successfully withdrawal valium » joe schmoe, posted by alexcanada on March 24, 2013, at 23:10:40
>
> perhaps it will ease up but i have been on benzos for around 6 years or more and have never been able to successfully withdrawal. when i was fully off valium for a number of weeks my mood became darker, anxiety filled, and extremely dysphoric. it felt dark and frightening. then upon starting up again of course i felt better with sufficient dose.
>
I have read some things which indicate it can take several months for the worst of the withdrawal symptoms to subside and then a year or more for total healing. So I wouldn't assume your baseline is the dysphoria you describe after a few weeks. I also read that some people don't stabilize between doses, they don't feel better till they have been off it completely for awhile, so how you feel during the taper is not indicative of how you will feel in the end.I had racing heartbeat this weekend for no apparent reason.
Been two weeks since my last dose as of today. Been gaining weight so I need to overcome these carb cravings.
Posted by herpills on March 25, 2013, at 8:06:35
In reply to Five days since my last klonopin (after 12 years), posted by joe schmoe on March 16, 2013, at 7:51:09
> Melatonin is helping me to get a deeper sleep, I wake up feeling more refreshed, even though I still wake up sometimes.
I think klonopin affects sleep in a negative way, I know I am sleeping much better since I got off klonopin. Glad to here melatonin is helping, can I ask what dose you take of it?
Posted by joe schmoe on March 25, 2013, at 16:53:08
In reply to Re: Five days since my last klonopin (after 12 years) » joe schmoe, posted by herpills on March 25, 2013, at 8:06:35
> > Melatonin is helping me to get a deeper sleep, I wake up feeling more refreshed, even though I still wake up sometimes.
>
> I think klonopin affects sleep in a negative way, I know I am sleeping much better since I got off klonopin. Glad to here melatonin is helping, can I ask what dose you take of it?
>
I take one-half of a 1 mg pill, so 0.5 mg, which is plenty for me.Have had increased nervousness as well as cognitive deficits today. Difficulty concentrating. Guess the withdrawal is entering "round two." Quite a ride.
Interestingly, Wikipedia notes:"Alcohol, even mild to moderate use, has been found to be a significant predictor of withdrawal failure, probably because of its cross tolerance with benzodiazepines."
But the Ashton Manual states:"Similarly with alcohol: a glass or two of wine is perfectly permissible (and even said by some to be advisable for health). Although it is important not to substitute increasing doses of alcohol for decreasing doses of benzodiazepines, there is no need to deny oneself small pleasures. Moderation is the key: there is no call to be puritanical."
At this point I am wondering if I need to give up beer or not.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.