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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 9:21:25
In reply to Well said, Markus. (nm), posted by gadchik on July 12, 2012, at 6:25:51
Thank you.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:00:15
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » SLS, posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 21:47:51
When I was growing up, spankings were the norm. My mother actually got criticized for not spanking me, and instead reasoning with me. The general idea was that "Because I said so." and a judicious spanking were superior to explanations.
She did, on rare occasion, lose control and was physical with me in anger. That was scary.
We raised my son the same way we were raised, minus the out of control anger. We didn't ever use physical punishment. Or even time outs, because my son was apparently extremely upset by time outs. We spoke to him about the reasons for rules, and recognized that he needed to follow rules for the right reason, not for fear of being spanked. Because we wouldn't always be around to spank him. He is a delightful young man, and more apt to follow rules than even we are. And we follow rules quite well.
My friends who were spanked don't show signs of mental illness. But I think an important component of this is societal norms. In my childhood, the norm was being willing to spank when it was considered necessary. A parent who spanked was not necessarily on the more strict side of the average. In today's society, fewer people spank, so kids who are spanked might also lie on the outer fringe of parental authoritarianism. That might cause damage that just wouldn't have come about when spankings were spoken of as expected.
I will also say that I think using reasoning and high expectations carries its own risk of mental health issues. We sometimes jokingly apologize to our son for trusting him and expecting the best from him. As well as teaching him that trust is a valuable and not unlimited commodity, not to be squandered lightly. We know the heavy burden this can be to a decent kid. We're not altogether certain it won't lead to its own issues.
I understand what you're seeing in schools, and agree that it's symptomatic of societal breakdown. But perhaps you're associating physical punishment with other hallmarks of good parenting that aren't as widespread today. Family dinners, time spent together, parental supervision and involvement. The kids who have those things today are among the best kids I've ever seen, and probably make my generation look like lazy pleasure seekers. But the kids who don't have that, and who I'm guessing make the most impression in the classroom, can make one long for the days of corporal punishment. Because one can feel so helpless and impotent confronting such a lack of respect for authority. What can you do to restore order in your classroom, when it's politically incorrect to isolate the disruptive kids so the kids who want to learn are able to do so? It's unfair and it's frustrating.
That being said, I can't imagine using physical discipline on my son. But admittedly kids are born with different temperaments. I always say that what works for an Italian Greyhound just is not appropriate for a Boxer, and vice versa. I like to think that even the more boisterous kids could be trained to proper respect for others without resorting to physical measures.
(And as you quite rightly say, spanking was often the easier punishment. A quick slap on the rump and it was over. While groundings, or in the case of my son - lectures, last a good deal longer. So maybe you could see them as even more stringent punishment.)
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:05:49
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 11, 2012, at 22:12:59
Mid tantrum is never the best time for reason. But talking to your children all the time about candy being a very occasional treat, and being consistent about not getting it, prevents a lot of tantrums.
I only remember my son having a tantrum once when he didn't want to leave an activity. When he threw himself on the ground and howled, I sat down next to him, agreed it was terrible to have to leave, and howled myself. (I'll point out that we were among friends.) He was so startled that he got up and we left. I'm not altogether sure that that was the best tactic either. Parenting is full of being not at all sure what on earth to do, and just doing the best I can. I hope my son recognizes that some day.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:21:20
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
I don't use corporal punishment on my son, and as I said it wasn't used routinely on me in my childhood.
However, neither I nor my friends considered their parents abusers for giving the occasional spanking. It was considered normal in those days. Their parents were decent people trying to do their best for their kids to the best of their understanding.
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 10:43:01
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » mbrational, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:21:20
I am from Austria. The generation of my grandparents killed 6 million jews in Austria and Germany. My grandparents were not involved (to the best of my knowledge) but they knew people who were. They said they were decent people, it was considered normal then. They said they just did their duty and tried their best.
I do not care about what is considered normal. I just care about what is right or wrong. (Without wanting to imply that I know a lot about what is right or wrong).Markus
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:03:50
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 10:43:01
Your attitude is not at all unusual these days - at least on the internet. There does seem to be a tendency to compare things like spanking to the Holocaust.
I recognize that you care about right and wrong, and are attempting to do right.
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 13:32:35
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » mbrational, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:03:50
It was just an exaggerated comparison to make the point that often what is considered normal is nevertheless not the right thing to do. I am certainly not comparing the holocaust to spanking. (Though interestingly psychologist Alice Miller is arguing that the extreme beating and punishment practiced especially by the parents of this generation in Germany is what made the cruelty and lack of empathy of the holocaust possible in the first place.)
Markus
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:43:01
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 13:32:35
Exaggeration is something that tends to turn me in the opposite direction.
I will be the first to say that extreme physical punishment is inexcusable.
There are so many ways to be a rotten parent. I don't believe in spanking myself, but I don't think that mild measured spanking is worse than many other parenting practices. My own view is that emphasis should be placed on parent education rather than blaming people for following what my son wisely terms "outdated" parenting practices. It always shocked me that they spent countless classes teaching me how to have a baby, and zero classes teaching me what to do once the baby got home.
Education, in my opinion, is the answer. If you give parents alternative ways to bring up well-disciplined kids, spanking will decrease. Attacking spanking without education just leads to other problems.
Posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 14:13:24
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » mbrational, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 13:43:01
I agree with some of your points but even though education would improve things I still think there is more to this than that.
If people would be in touch with their feelings especially those feelings they were not allowed to feel (and which they didn`t allow themselves to feel) as children when they were beaten etc. they wouldn`t cut off their ability to emphasize. Then they wouldn`t have to be educated about this, they simply wouldn`t WANT to beat their children. They would use their phantasy to come up with other and better solutions, beating would not be an alternative.Markus
Posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:18:56
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by SLS on July 11, 2012, at 7:05:02
> > It is so typical for children who were abused physically (and yes smacking is physical abuse and emotional abuse too because it is so humilating)) to justify their parents behavior as they grow up. And as they think it didn`t hurt them they think they have the right to do the same to their own children and so the vicious circle continues and another generation gets involved. I think its particularly disgusting when those people become teachers.
> >
> > Markus
>
>
> I think the induction of a major mental illness is a multifactorial phenomenon for which childhood physical abuse, corporal punishment, and neglect can be contributing, although not sufficient, variables. For some people, they are not contributors at all. The article being referred to seems to indicate that there are phenomenological differences between physical abuse and physical punishment.And what about developmental PTSD?
Well, it's good that this stuff be looked at more closely and scientifically. Taking out the guesswork might help resolve what's best for children and adults both.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:33:48
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » SLS, posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:18:56
> And what about developmental PTSD?
http://www.positivehumandevelopment.com/developmental-ptsd.html
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on July 12, 2012, at 19:05:19
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » SLS, posted by SLS on July 12, 2012, at 17:33:48
I guess that is what emotionally saved me with emotional abuse the knowing that it was the medication my Mother was on that caused the temper tantrums she had and borderline behavior in yelling at me, blaming me, then saying she loved me. Pdocs have said the abandonment issues are my problem. As never knew when returned home if there would be an ambulence taking Mother to hospital for an addrenal crisis. I rationally know I didn't make her sick as she acused me. I just swore I'd always look at the positives that my own kids did and praise it and not focus on negative. Evidently this worked as all three are very independant now and happy with jobs or disabled as my Son but with his own family. Oh one slap to thigh for each kid when their lives endangered as walking into the street as a toddler. As babies never had any terrible twos. No idea why their genes and personalities I guess. And being home with them all. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:24:57
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 1:57:13
>I was a pest,
>I was a brat,
>I deserved it,
>It was a totally justified smacked,
>I prefer my punishment quick."
The truth of the matter is that. I *was* a pest (at the time), I *was* a brat (at the time), I did diserve it and yes the spaking was *totally* justified.And finally, I did (and still do) much *much* prefer a quick punishment than a prolonged one.
If I stole a television today, I would **much** prefer a Sinapore style 50 whacks with a cane, than a year in prison.
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:25:51
In reply to Re: Well said, Markus., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 9:21:25
I can agree to disagree. But...the last time I checked, spanking your child wasn't illegal.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:42:23
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » linkadge, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:00:15
>"Because I said so." and a judicious spanking >were superior to explanations.
But at the end of the day.....you are the parent....and yes...."because I said so" is many times fully jusitifed.
If a cop arrests you, it **doesn't matter** if you think that your speeding was justified. It **doesn't matter** if you understand his logic. If you run away....he will come after you and take you to the ground. And, guess what....it may hurt a little.
Too many children these days *do not* see their parents as the authority figure.
Yes, of course, step a) is trying to reason with the child. But in the real world (unlike the steralized microcosm that some people seem to think that the little 'perfect angels' operate in) children sometimes don't 'like' your decisions (rational or not).
You can reason with your 10 year old son that riding a dirt bike without a helmet is dangerous. You can *think* that he understands, and that it is getting through to him. However, sometimes he will ride without a helmet anyway, because children can be stupid (because they are children and they make stupid decisions somtimes), and they can go against a fully rational argument.
What some people don't understand is that humans are *not* always rational creatures.
I sometimes drive without a seatbelt. Logically, I *know* that this is stupid. Would it be abuse, if my 65 year old father gave me a slap and told me to wear a seatbelt. No! Infact, it could be argued that the little slap is a mild reminder of the kind of ***excrutiating pain*** I'd be in, if I went through the windshield.
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:54:08
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » linkadge, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2012, at 10:05:49
>I only remember my son having a tantrum once >when he didn't want to leave an activity. When >he threw himself on the ground and howled, I sat >down next to him, agreed it was terrible to have >to leave, and howled myself. (I'll point out >that we were among friends.) He was so startled >that he got up and we left. I'm not altogether >sure that that was the best tactic either.
**Well, apparently, you've got great kids and you don't need to escalate the response curve.**
Once, I darted across the street at the age of 2. (yes we can blame my parents for letting this happen, but nonetheless they were supervising).
My parents picked me up and spanked me. Then they followed up with "don't you 'ever' run across the street again like that - the truck can hit you"
I would argue that this response was optimal.
The child has attempted something extremly dangerous. They often cannot fathom the kind of pain and suffering that might result from a collision.
My parents may have tried 'reasoning with me'. But, I would argue that 'reasoning' (or taking away a toy or bla bla) does not instill the same sense of *seriousness* that such an act caries.
The 2 year old will probably attempt the same thing again, because words to a 2 year old can go in one ear and out the other.
My father (an electrician) warned me *often* about not putting my fingers in an electrical socket (when I was about 3). His words made *sense* however, being a stupid child I did it anyway. I got a bad shock.
I never did it again.
For me at age 3:
Words = in one ear out the other
Pain = remembered
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 12:04:20
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 10:43:01
>I do not care about what is considered normal.
The question you need to ask yourself is not whether it was normal, but "was it justified".
I don't care about what is "normal" either. (I'm among the dying few that thinks that spanking ones child can be a very good thing when justified). I may be seen as abnormal, however, I don't think I am unjustified.
Lets continue with your analogy. So certain Germans killed many Jews. Because of that, the response of the Americans was to kill Germans.
It became normal (and ok from the American perspective) for an American soldier to kill a German soldier in order to stop the war.
Is killing normal? Most would argue no.
You can sit there any say that killing is never justified.
However, when Hitler was slaughtering Jews by the trainload in WWII, maybe we should have just stuck to our morals and tried to reason with Hitler.
Yes, yes....in hindsight I think this would have been a glorious idea! No guns....lets just stick to "reasoning with them".
Afterall, we should never be violent.
Linakdge
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 12:06:41
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 13:32:35
>Though interestingly psychologist Alice Miller >is arguing that the extreme beating and >punishment practiced especially by the parents >of this generation in Germany is what made the >cruelty and lack of empathy of the holocaust >possible in the first pla
Who is talking about 'extreme beating and punishment'? I'm talking about a spanking.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 12:11:50
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by mbrational on July 12, 2012, at 14:13:24
Why are you equating a spaking to a beating?
Beating leaves bruises and is excessive.
A spaking IMHO is a 2-3 slaps on the rear end - a sting.
Linkadge
Posted by mbrational on July 13, 2012, at 13:56:48
In reply to Re: Re Instead...., posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:24:57
You do not seem to realize that your argument(if one can even call it that)does lend more support to my point than to yours.
Markus
Posted by mbrational on July 13, 2012, at 13:59:26
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » mbrational, posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 12:04:20
Oh please. As if initiating violence and defending oneself with violent means as a last measure (as was necessary against Hitler) were the same thing or comparable. This gets a bit childish, maybe you could use a little spanking.
Markus
Posted by mbrational on July 13, 2012, at 14:22:48
In reply to Re: Well said, Markus., posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:25:51
I just know about Europe, but spanking is illegal in: Spain, Portugal, Austria, Germany, Iceland, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Moldavia, Ukraine, Poland and Latvia.
Markus
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2012, at 17:10:38
In reply to Re: Well said, Markus., posted by mbrational on July 13, 2012, at 14:22:48
What else is illegal?
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2012, at 17:21:29
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » Dinah, posted by linkadge on July 13, 2012, at 11:54:08
Yes, I suppose if I had a different type of kid, the same response wouldn't work. Thank heavens I have the kid I do. I'm not a particularly authoritarian figure. Good old genetics. Nature *and* nurture.
I don't think a swat on the rear is a horrible overreaction to a kid running in traffic. It seems like the sort of thing any anxious parent might do, no matter what their theoretical orientation, when their child terrifies them witless.
But I'm not altogether certain why a mild spanking would cause a child to remember any more than the natural screech of terror such an action would bring about, along with explanations of just what the consequences should be.
I've always liked natural consequences better than arbitrary ones, whether the arbitrary ones involve a spanking or a time out. It isn't always possible, but when it is natural consequences are the best teacher of all. (And no, I don't mean letting your kid get hit by a truck.)
I also think that otherwise good parents who believe in non-abusive spankings cause far less damage than, for example, emotionally abusive or neglectful parents. Or parents who let their kids do whatever they like. All styles of parenting have their natural consequences.
Posted by SLS on July 14, 2012, at 0:10:26
In reply to Re: Re Instead.... » linkadge, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2012, at 17:21:29
> I also think that otherwise good parents who believe in non-abusive spankings cause far less damage than, for example, emotionally abusive or neglectful parents
Neglect is a major contributor to developmental PTSD, and might be more damaging than physical abuse. It's hard to believe, but neglect affects adversely the developing brain much like abuse does.
- Scott
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