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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 75. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47
psychcentral.comhttp://psychcentral.com/news/2012/04/25/weighing-the-real-risks-of-antidepressants/37802.html
Weighing the Real Risks of Antidepressants
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Weighing the Real Risks of AntidepressantsA new Canadian research paper suggests use of commonly prescribed antidepressants may do more harm than good.
Investigators believe knowledge of the negative effects of the medications may reduce their use.
We need to be much more cautious about the widespread use of these drugs, says Dr. Paul Andrews, an evolutionary biologist at McMaster University and lead author of the article.
Its important because millions of people are prescribed antidepressants each year, and the conventional wisdom about these drugs is that theyre safe and effective.
Andrews and his colleagues reviewed previous patient studies into the effects of antidepressants and determined that the benefits of most antidepressants, even taken at their best, compare poorly to the risks, which include premature death in elderly patients.
Most contemporary antidepressants are a class of compounds called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) that work by increasing the levels of serotonin in the brain, where it regulates mood.
The vast majority of serotonin that the body produces, though, is used for other purposes, including digestion, forming blood clots at wound sites, reproduction and development.
In the current study, researchers discovered that anti-depressants have negative health effects on all processes normally regulated by serotonin.
The findings include these elevated risks:
developmental problems in infants;
problems with sexual stimulation and function and sperm development in adults;
digestive problems such as diarrhea, constipation, indigestion and bloating;
abnormal bleeding and stroke in the elderly.A literature review of three studies showed that elderly antidepressant users are more likely to die than non-users, even after taking other important variables into account.
Researchers believe that this higher death rate indicates that the overall effect of these drugs on the body is more harmful than beneficial.
Serotonin is an ancient chemical. Its intimately regulating many different processes, and when you interfere with these things you can expect, from an evolutionary perspective, that its going to cause some harm, Andrews said.
Although millions of people are prescribed antidepressants every year, Andrews said much of the evidence has long been apparent and available.
The thing thats been missing in the debates about antidepressants is an overall assessment of all these negative effects relative to their potential beneficial effects, he said. Most of this evidence has been out there for years and nobody has been looking at this basic issue.
In previous research, Andrews and his colleagues had questioned the effectiveness of antidepressants even for their prescribed function, finding that patients were more likely to suffer relapse after going off their medications as their brains worked to re-establish equilibrium.
With even the intended function of antidepressants in question, Andrews said it is important to look critically at their continuing use.
It could change the way we think about such major pharmaceutical drugs, he says. Youve got a minimal benefit, a laundry list of negative effects some small, some rare and some not so rare.
The issue is: does the list of negative effects outweigh the minimal benefit?
The study is published in the online journal Frontiers in Psychology.
Source: McMaster University
APA Reference
Nauert PhD, R. (2012). Weighing the Real Risks of Antidepressants. Psych Central. Retrieved on April 25, 2012, from http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/04/25/weighing-the-real-risks-of-antidepressants/37802.html
Posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:33:25
In reply to ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47
Link to original article
http://www.frontiersin.org/Evolutionary_Psychology/10.3389/fpsyg.2012.00117/full
Posted by sigismund on April 25, 2012, at 15:29:58
In reply to ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47
>and the conventional wisdom about these drugs is that theyre safe and effective
More in medical profession than the real world.
Posted by Phillipa on April 25, 2012, at 17:02:14
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by sigismund on April 25, 2012, at 15:29:58
It has always made sense to me as when you replace something that really is working that the body will produce less. Hence maybe why my pdoc won't raise my baby dose of lexapro 2.5mg, and luvox 50mg. Doesn't help. I can go up and down and still the same will read original article. Phillipa
Posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 3:12:05
In reply to ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47
Posted by huxley on April 26, 2012, at 6:22:55
In reply to so what's the answer? (nm), posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 3:12:05
stop prescribing them. stop giving them to children.
Posted by SLS on April 26, 2012, at 7:06:12
In reply to so what's the answer? (nm), posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 3:12:05
Yes. What's the answer?
Let us get rid of all psychotropic drugs.
Now what?
What's the next step?
It is easy to find problems. Let's hear some alternatives.
- Scott
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 9:55:31
In reply to ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47
What do you think of benzodiazepines for longterm anxiety treatment? Have you found any new research about them,good or bad? Specifically,clonazepam.Thanks.
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 11:56:05
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 9:55:31
> What do you think of benzodiazepines for longterm anxiety treatment? Have you found any new research about them,good or bad? Specifically,clonazepam.Thanks.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 12:35:59
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 11:56:05
Scary stuff,that.Makes me want to taper,taper,taper.But I do believe I will be the one with the excruciating withdrawal.This belief,maybe erroneous,however,it keeps me tethered to the chemical.
Posted by Hugh on April 26, 2012, at 12:43:38
In reply to so what's the answer? (nm), posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 3:12:05
Ketamine, for one. Won't you be trying it soon?
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:09:59
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 12:35:59
> Scary stuff,that.Makes me want to taper,taper,taper.But I do believe I will be the one with the excruciating withdrawal.This belief,maybe erroneous,however,it keeps me tethered to the chemical.
>
"Excruciating" would be an understatement. I tried tapering a number of times, failing totally. After 7+ years, latter daily amounts of 12 mg or more, and a final downing of perhaps 30 mg or more (the end of the bottle), I went cold turkey. It was the worst two weeks of my life. So, I don't recommend that route, for sure.Talking 7 years later - am I glad i did it? Damn right! I might still feel like crap, but at least I don't feel like crap AND have a monkey on my back.
What I'm saying is that if you're gonna stop benzos, prepare for it to suck.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 13:33:05
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:09:59
"monkey on my back",you hit the nail on the head.These days,I dont feel bad on the klonopin,I do worry about years passing and then I dont feel so good on it.Yes,"prepare for it to suck"-Ive had a small taste of that,and do I ever dread it,but you cant go over it,you must go through it.Question is,when is a good time in my life to go through it?
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:54:29
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 13:33:05
> "monkey on my back",you hit the nail on the head.These days,I dont feel bad on the klonopin,I do worry about years passing and then I dont feel so good on it.Yes,"prepare for it to suck"-Ive had a small taste of that,and do I ever dread it,but you cant go over it,you must go through it.Question is,when is a good time in my life to go through it?
---------------------------------------
From what I've observed over the years (I'm 59), people stop their unwanted (and I emphasize unwanted) addictions only when they're ready, and for their own reasons. For me, it was when I realized that I was a captive of both the meds and the doctors who prescribed them. Some can taper off, some can go cold turkey, and some require formal inpatient rehab. Quitting is only half the problem - staying off being the other half. Seems that the first year or so is the worst.It's very strange how I was able to quit psych meds and cigarette smoking, but I can't get a handle on diet and exercise, even though I'm overweight, have high blood pressure and am borderline diabetic). Our motivations are very much our own.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 14:16:54
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:54:29
And I am able to diet and exercise,hike 3-4 miles a day,7 miles once a month.I do this to feel healthy,and I desire to be fit.However,the benzo is just so,so difficult,and I know it's psychological and physical.I do see myself stopping one day,I will do it.Cant believe such a little pill holds me captive.Btw,just start walking,any distance,everyday.Its easy,and may develop into a habit.
Posted by sigismund on April 26, 2012, at 14:57:42
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:09:59
> Damn right! I might still feel like crap, but at least I don't feel like crap AND have a monkey on my back.
Yeah, that has been my experience with certain substances too.
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 14:57:50
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 14:16:54
> Btw,just start walking,any distance,everyday.Its easy,and may develop into a habit.
That's one thing that I do do. When I got the dog in 2006, walking in the park was part of the plan. Of course, living in the Pacific Northwet can be problematical during the long rainy season for walking, as well as SAD.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 15:56:15
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 14:57:50
Dogs are great! Yes,you do have to contend with the elements there.There's a few days a year I dont get out,but mostly I do.
Posted by linkadge on April 26, 2012, at 19:39:00
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 15:56:15
There was a CBC radio (canadian) show about this article today. Unfortunately all they did was bring in psychiatrist to push the whole safe/effective deal.
The problem is that the 'consensus' of the medical community is that depression is still a treatable medical disorder. They want people feeling that it is safe to see a psychiatrist. As such, I think the case for antidepressants gets distorted, because people feel that if antidepressants are shown for what they are, people won't see a psychiatrist, or get help.
I think there should be push to disect psychiatry and antidepressants. Psychiatry should go back to looking for additional ways to help people so that people don't just see psychiatry = SSRIs.
Linakdge
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2012, at 20:42:27
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by linkadge on April 26, 2012, at 19:39:00
I saw my pdoc today asked if was true about ad's he hemmed and hawed as old school. I asked about poop out also. He said that true some take a med and it works and then stops working. He's an addictions pdoc so he doesn't believe in addictive meds but says my dose of benzos is low and has no problems with me continuing them. I asked to raise the lexapro to 5mg. As told him I had on own for a few days at a time. He said I could if I wanted but give it time. I said how long he said at least a month. He believes in low doses of all meds. Phillipa
Posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:24:58
In reply to Re: so what's the answer?, posted by SLS on April 26, 2012, at 7:06:12
hi scott-
i don't know what the answers are. i'm just frustrated and scared and not getting better.
your post reminds me of john lennon; 'there's no problems, only solutions,,,' and! tony robbins; 'focus 95% on the solution and 5% on the problem.' just wish depression was that easy...
as you know i've tried ect, several drugs, talk therapy, group therapy, in/out-patient over the past 2+ years. sorta waiting to try ketamine now. but, i'm losing faith in psychiatry.
one thing i'd like to try, if i had the $, would be to go to a long-term facility out in nature. these do exist. kind of like the old school way of treating depression, pre shock and meds. many of the current ones are even 'working' farms where you have chores, therapy, meds (if needed), etc. most of these are also not 'lock-down' places either. the recommended stay is 9 to 12 months if you have severe mental issues. then, if need be, they can set you up at a half-way house.
i realize this old school model is for rich people because the cost of these places is about $20k to $30k per month and not covered by insurance!
i have really good insurance. but, all they offer me is; therapy, pdoc/meds, acute crisis in-patient, and out-patient/partial hospitalization. (i know this is a lot compared to those w/out insurance or insurance that provides less coverage.)
humans are creature of habit. i think depression for some people can become habit forming. it has for me. it's now been over 2 years of me mostly laying in bed, showering maybe once or twice a week and shaving even less. i have completely cut myself off from my old life. i was a high-functioning person before i went down mentally after several life stressors 2 years ago.
i called my insurance one time and we spent quite a bit of time looking for some type of facility like the one's i mentioned above. no luck. the lady said too bad you don't have an addiction, because there were plenty of half-way homes, bucolic ranches, etc. that allowed unlimited stays for recovery. i've actually been thinking of doing just that and use my 1mg per day klonopin as an excuse to get into a environment where i will have daily activities for an extended time to change my current habits and thinking.
depression is so unique to each individual. the current model of focusing mostly on medication works for some, but not for others.
so scott, to wrap-up, there is one long-winded 'alternative' i wish was available to more of us that don't seem to respond to meds.
john
Posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:29:02
In reply to Re: so what's the answer? » JohnLA, posted by Hugh on April 26, 2012, at 12:43:38
hi hugh-
yes, i am waiting to possibly try either an iv infusion of ketamine at ucla or going down to a doc in san diego who prescribes it off label in either a nasal spray or sub-lingually.
i was supposed to go to ucla a few weeks ago for an initial consultation, but couldn't get myself down there.
i'll keep everyone posted when i get going on all this.
thanks for remembering.
john
Posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 23:08:14
In reply to Re: so what's the answer? » SLS, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:24:58
here are the type of places i was talking about;
'if i were a rich man...'
john
Posted by SLS on April 27, 2012, at 6:27:59
In reply to Re: so what's the answer? » SLS, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:24:58
> hi scott-
>
> i don't know what the answers are. i'm just frustrated and scared and not getting better.
>
> your post reminds me of john lennon; 'there's no problems, only solutions,,,' and! tony robbins; 'focus 95% on the solution and 5% on the problem.' just wish depression was that easy...
>
> as you know i've tried ect, several drugs, talk therapy, group therapy, in/out-patient over the past 2+ years.Yes. I have been through all of those things, too. It is indeed scary to have so many treatment modalities fail to produce results.
> sorta waiting to try ketamine now. but, i'm losing faith in psychiatry.
I never lost faith in psychiatry per se. I believe that the majority of research institutions are genuinely interested in finding answers. I did, however, lose faith that psychiatry would produce an effective set of new treatments that would have cured me during my lifetime.
> one thing i'd like to try, if i had the $, would be to go to a long-term facility out in nature. these do exist. kind of like the old school way of treating depression, pre shock and meds. many of the current ones are even 'working' farms where you have chores, therapy, meds (if needed), etc. most of these are also not 'lock-down' places either. the recommended stay is 9 to 12 months if you have severe mental issues. then, if need be, they can set you up at a half-way house.
I have been part of this type of residential program in the past. It helped set me up to live independently.
My grandfather had a "nervous breakdown" in the 1940s. He spent two weeks at a retreat in the mountains. Apparently, he came back feeling better.
> humans are creature of habit. i think depression for some people can become habit forming.
That's a great insight.
> it has for me. it's now been over 2 years of me mostly laying in bed, showering maybe once or twice a week and shaving even less. i have completely cut myself off from my old life. i was a high-functioning person before i went down mentally after several life stressors 2 years ago.
I can relate to this. After 20 years of sequestration from society, my very first foray into the reintroduction of socializing came with online newsgroup communities and Psycho-Babble. Later, I connected to society in real life when I began the residential program and entered a partial care milieu.
> i called my insurance one time and we spent quite a bit of time looking for some type of facility like the one's i mentioned above. no luck. the lady said too bad you don't have an addiction, because there were plenty of half-way homes, bucolic ranches, etc. that allowed unlimited stays for recovery. i've actually been thinking of doing just that and use my 1mg per day klonopin as an excuse to get into a environment where i will have daily activities for an extended time to change my current habits and thinking.I admire your positive attitude and your drive to find constructive, life-enhancing alternatives.
> depression is so unique to each individual.
> the current model of focusing mostly on medication works for some, but not for others.
Part of the problem is that the word "depression" is used to label a wide variety of phenomena. To use the term "Major Depressive Disorder" helps to identify one set of depressions that have common elements in presentation and applied treatment methods.
> so scott, to wrap-up, there is one long-winded 'alternative' i wish was available to more of us that don't seem to respond to meds.
Your post was not at all long-winded.
Depression sucks. It obliterates people's lives and condemns one to a painful altered state of consciousness.
I wish I had a magic wand.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 27, 2012, at 6:30:54
In reply to @ scott again. alternatives, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 23:08:14
> here are the type of places i was talking about;
>
> http://www.artausa.org/
>
> 'if i were a rich man...'
>
> john
Easter Seals is an alternative program.
- Scott
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