![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2012, at 0:45:56
In reply to Re: Desperate » Christ_empowered, posted by Solstice on February 18, 2012, at 22:16:03
> but historically, whenever she has inadvertently missed her Vyvanse, we've paid dearly.. in that she has a really bad day where she's just totally unable to manage herself.
It sounds like the doctor got it right. Vyvanse is serving a very important purpose.
I have experienced manic reactions to certain medications, but amphetamine is not one of them.
- Scott
Posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 0:49:03
In reply to Re: Desperate » herpills, posted by SLS on February 19, 2012, at 0:41:08
> Sometimes it is a matter of throwing a bunch of crap against the wall to see if any of it sticks.I love this. Especially because that's exactly what we're doing here, and all the 'bunch of crap' we're throwing is so scary for me as her mom. So it's helpful to me to think of it like you said it. Makes me giggle :-)
Solstice
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2012, at 1:01:43
In reply to Re: Desperate » SLS, posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 0:45:12
> > Regarding neuroleptic antipsychotics, Fanapt (iloperidone) has one of the better side effect profiles with respect to EPS and weight gain.
> yeah.. I looked it up and read some patient reviews (which were mixed, of course). however, one patient described themselves and it sounded exactly like my daughter - and they said the Fanapt really zapped the hypomania. And the weight gain thing is really important. So I can't wait to see the PDoc Tuesday to ask about it. But Scott - what is EPS?Extrapyramidal symptoms.
EPS is the most important acronym to know when you are dealing with neuroleptic (DA antagonist) antipsychotics. Symptoms include involuntary muscle movements (dystonia, dyskinesia, torticollis, pseudoparkinsonism, chorea, etc). Akathisia is also considered to be a form EPS. Akathisia is a set of highly specific anxiety-like phenomena. There are instances where EPS can appear later in treatment (tardive) and become irreversible, despite drug discontinuation. These things are much more likely to occur with the older APs than the newer AAPs. I'm sure your doctor can provide you with more information about EPS.
- Scott
Posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 1:01:45
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by SLS on February 19, 2012, at 0:45:56
> > but historically, whenever she has inadvertently missed her Vyvanse, we've paid dearly.. in that she has a really bad day where she's just totally unable to manage herself.
>
> It sounds like the doctor got it right. Vyvanse is serving a very important purpose.
>
> I have experienced manic reactions to certain medications, but amphetamine is not one of them.
>
Scott.. I know depression has taken up the most acreage in your battlefield.Please help me understand some things. It was clear initially that my daughter was hypomanic. When she started treatment, she was in absolute grief about losing that glorious feeling of hypomania. It took about six months for her to adjust to her 'normal' and to appreciate the feeling of being balanced.
What I'm wondering, is what does it look like when hypomania gets more manic? Her irritability and anger and reactivity is especially difficult for me to figure out. Before treatment, her hypomania was unremitting, but because it was pleasant, she wasn't 'easy' because of the intensity, but it wasn't horrible. The irritability and anger has been post-treatment, and it has seemed that the intensity of it is how her PDoc has identified it as a bipolar feature as opposed to teen 'attitude.' Over the last 3 years, it has been the appearance of excessive irritability and anger that has prompted raising her Geodon - and it always took care of it until the last time we did it, which was right before Christmas.
But, is the irritability/anger part of hypomania, mania, or is it actually a factor of depression? I have not known of my daughter having depression - but I'm wondering if her bipolar is evolving or something.
And.. thanks for letting me know that amphetamine apparently hasn't provoked mania for you. It helps to know it's not necessarily a 'given,' considering the problems we're having with quieting the symptoms she got right now.
Solstice
Posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 1:07:33
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by SLS on February 19, 2012, at 1:01:43
> > But Scott - what is EPS?
>
> Extrapyramidal symptoms.
>
> EPS is the most important acronym to know when you are dealing with neuroleptic (DA antagonist) antipsychotics. Symptoms include involuntary muscle movements (dystonia, dyskinesia, torticollis, pseudoparkinsonism, chorea, etc).Oh! Wow.. that's good to know. And yep - she had dystonia and a bunch of other bad side effects from Abilify. It was crazy.
> Akathisia is also considered to be a form EPS. Akathisia is a set of highly specific anxiety-like phenomena. There are instances where EPS can appear later in treatment (tardive) and become irreversible, despite drug discontinuation. These things are much more likely to occur with the older APs than the newer AAPs. I'm sure your doctor can provide you with more information about EPS.
I think I need to look up the Akathisia you're talking about just so I'll know. Thanks Scott.. you're always such a wealth of information.Solstice
Posted by SLS on February 19, 2012, at 1:13:32
In reply to Re: Desperate » SLS, posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 1:07:33
One last thing before I get my butt to bed...
When you give Depakote to someone taking Lamictal, you mush reduce the dosage of Lamictal by 50%. Depakote impedes the body's ability to break-down Lamictal. This type of interaction between drugs is called "pharmacokinetics".
- Scott
Posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 1:25:38
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by SLS on February 19, 2012, at 1:13:32
> One last thing before I get my butt to bed...
>
> When you give Depakote to someone taking Lamictal, you mush reduce the dosage of Lamictal by 50%. Depakote impedes the body's ability to break-down Lamictal. This type of interaction between drugs is called "pharmacokinetics".
>
Okay.. and thanks Scott. You're the best :-) Sleep well.Solstice
Posted by bleauberry on February 19, 2012, at 8:58:09
In reply to Desperate, posted by Solstice on February 18, 2012, at 21:08:07
This is certainly a heartbreaking story and all of us have experienced, or do experience, to a minor moderate or severe degree. Your comment "worn to a frazzle" only begins to describe the devastation. So sorry!
Like others have said, Vynase I think is suspect. It doesn't matter that it used to be fine, because of these reasons....
Our bodies, brains, and diseases are always in motion...not static...and things change/morph with time. While we view meds such as Vynase as therapeutic, keep in mind that when used illegally the end result is almost always bad....any of the amphetamines lead to an eventual downfall...just because it has an authorized prescription attached to it does not change that. That said, Vynase may not be a problem at all, but to me is at least suspect.Not sure why Zyprexa was not considered, but I would personally put more hope and trust in that one than any of its peers.
I think other things need to be looked at. I'm trying to think, what are some of the issues that struggling mothers find in their troubled kids? You know, the guerrilla medicine stuff that patients are forced in to when doctors alone fall short? Well, probably the most common issue is toxicity...usually lead and/or mercury. Might want to study up on DMSA and chelation, if for no other reason to know that the whole issue actually exists and is behind bizarre symptoms of many kids. It is a gray area, and some medical elites will poo-poo the whole thing, and of course their patients are the ones probably staying sick. Mothers know what works. Chelation is one of their more successful tools. Where did the toxins come from at such a young age? Maybe passed on from the mother? Something unknown in the living environment? How about immunization shots, many of which have mercury as a preservative? If a person is defective in certain genes, they will tend to accumulate and store toxins rather than normally excrete them. Thus easy toxicity from even miniscule exposure. And the obvious brain bizarreness that would follow.
Has she tried a gluten free diet? How about dairy free? Many of the gray area pros and mothers find dairy to be a factor in the bizarre psychiatric symptoms of kids. Study up on gluten, how it destroys the cilia lining in the intestines, and how that wreaks havoc on the nervous system by allowing large undigested molecules to enter straight into the bloodstream and of course obvious impact on the workings in the brain.
Lots of people with lyme disease or similar occult hidden infections display bizarre patterns and histories very much like what you have seen. People freak out because they think that I think everyone has lyme disease, because I mention this all the time, but the true scenario is that if the profile fits it has to be considered and not thrown out in haste. The profile fits. A two week blind trial of an antibiotic such as Doxycycline would provide most of the clues to make a fairly solid clinical diagnosis one way or the other, rule it in or rule it out. It has to be ruled out before tossing the idea away. Only a trial can provide the "pattern" response to know.
In terms of meds, wow, that is a tough one. I mentioned zyprexa already. I'm also thinking that in some situations such as this one, the patient may actually do better on a combo of antidepressants and benzos, avoiding the mood stabilizers. Those who operate in a black-and-white world of bipolar versus unipolar would disagree, claiming antidepressants are trouble and mood stabilizers are mandatory. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Can't make a blanket treatment based on a word such as bipolar or whatever....we have to try stuff to see what helps or what hurts, and sometimes the things we find helpful we can't explain why.
The whole thing is too gray to approach with a cookie cutter protocol (as in stimulant for ADHD and mood stabilizer for bipolar)....it just aint that straight forward.
Reduction of stored toxins, reduction of toxin exposure, careful choices of foods and experiments finding which aggravate, which help, and which are neutral. Most likely troubles from gluten and dairy. Self test for hidden infections.
I know you need ideas right now that will help fast. I don't know what that would be, except maybe zyprexa. But since she is so young, there is a real long battle ahead....and that's why I am stressing....screaming from the hilltops actually....to gain firm command of the issues I've mentioned here. Because those are the very issues other mothers in your shoes are finding helpful. The meds by themselves are rarely the answer. We get lucky sometimes, as you already experienced, and that can land us in a false sense of security that we can get lucky like that again and again. I wish. Just don't see that happen hardly ever.
Battle evil with all you've got and every weapon you can get your hands on. Meds are only a part of that war. Next comment maybe could appear off topic, IMO directly on topic, Jesus wants to be involved in this war so if you haven't personally asked Him to join you, something to consider. He promised wisdom to any who would ask for it.
I like all the approaches mentioned here (wish they were my own ideas). What I like about them is they demonstrate true healing potential, risks are low, expense low, and suitable for a lifetime.
Posted by Phillipa on February 19, 2012, at 10:52:45
In reply to Desperate, posted by Solstice on February 18, 2012, at 21:08:07
Just got on the board wow Soltice things are not good right now and I'm seriously so sorry for your whole family. I quickly read the whole thread. I see her thyroid hasn't been tested. This rather angers me as that should be the first thing checked. Especially due to her age evolving hormonal changes and being on lithium. I'd seriously get all other illnesses ruled out and then tackle meds more throughly. Seriously the thyroid I found so often was involved in mental illness when working. What if it was this? And at her age raging hormones sure complicate the picture. You mentioned Sister is she suffering from mental illness? I'm so sorry but I have witnessed lithium causing the shaking of the hands that tremor and on very low doses also. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 11:38:59
In reply to Re:chivkharmhoniegh, posted by Solstice on February 18, 2012, at 23:12:24
> > Solstice,
> > You wrote,[...leave {(MY) thread alone...]].
> > That could mean a lot of things,and I do not know what your are wanting to mean by what you wrote. If you are wanting to mean for me to not post in this thread at all, then be advised that others have the freeedom to post in this thread, so I can also, for I am not telling you or anyone else to not post in this thread, since you did write asking for (all) others advise.
> > But it is much more than that. You see, I am here to give support and education. There are many people outside of posters in this thread that could be reading this. And you see, there is your daughter also involved here. So my responses could also not be only to you, but to many others that may also have a 17 year-old daughter in the same situation. I want to help not only you and your daughter, but those people also. It would also be of help if you did explain here what you mean by [...leave (MY) thread *alone*...], if you could.
> > Lou
>
>
> I obviously can't stop you from posting. But, you are hijacking a thread I created that is important to me - with your own agenda. I want to hear from people on this board who have and/or understand bipolar illness, and have experienced or have knowledge of various effective treatments with medications and supplements.
>
> I don't want to discuss this with you. I don't want you to respond to me. I don't want you involved in my thread. That you have already buried it in your agenda, I feel like my story - my need for help - has been lost in a swirl of "Lou's reply" posts that are all about your agenda and have nothing to do with the questions I asked. I feel like I need to start a new thread all over again, because I fear so many people just skim over anything with your name on it, that my attempt to get the assistance I want will fall apart because you've taken it over.
>
> Again, I realize I can't stop you from posting, but I would be grateful and consider it a generous kindness if you would refrain from involving yourself in the thread I created here to discuss my concerns about my daughter. Your ideas about medication are not something I am interested in. And by the way, it has nothing to do with whether I like you, and my desire for you to not be an obstacle in this thread is not a statement about whether you are a good person, etc. I just need to hear from people, and you are obstructing that by hijacking my thread, which is not considered good forum etiquette.
>
> Please don't respond.
>
> SolsticeFriends,
There is the statement here concerning that I have an agenda. Now an agenda is a list if things that one has to do or wants to do or accomplish. An agenda could be of any nature, and this site is for different points of view.
Now if anyone is not aware of my agenda here, my agenda has the following list:
A. To save lives
B. To prevent one from getting a life-ruining condition
C. To give educational material to help others make a better decision as being more informed concerning as to take mind-altering drugs or to have their children take them or a loved one or friend, or other.
D. To show how addiction happens and how to overcome addiction
E. To show how depression happens and how to overcome depresssion
F. To provide educational material concerning the making of mind-altering drugs and how they were used and for what purpose by whom.
G. To provide educational material concerning the development of nerve agents and what they can do to the human body and mind
H. To provide educational material that could give people the understanding of what death is as revealed to me and how to overcome death.
K. To provide educational material that could show you the chances of getting a life-ruining condition or death from taking psychotropic drugs.
L. To offer support for those wanting to overcome depression and addiction
M. To provide educational material that shows the facts about what can happen to one when they combine two or more psychotropic drugs.
N. To provide educational material concerning the increase of suicide and homocide thinking when people take psychotropic drugs.
P. To provide educational material that the chances of death could be increased when one takes psychotropic drugs.
R. To provide suppport and education for other good and just causes
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 11:58:41
In reply to Lou's agenda-gudandjuz, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 11:38:59
> > > Solstice,
> > > You wrote,[...leave {(MY) thread alone...]].
> > > That could mean a lot of things,and I do not know what your are wanting to mean by what you wrote. If you are wanting to mean for me to not post in this thread at all, then be advised that others have the freeedom to post in this thread, so I can also, for I am not telling you or anyone else to not post in this thread, since you did write asking for (all) others advise.
> > > But it is much more than that. You see, I am here to give support and education. There are many people outside of posters in this thread that could be reading this. And you see, there is your daughter also involved here. So my responses could also not be only to you, but to many others that may also have a 17 year-old daughter in the same situation. I want to help not only you and your daughter, but those people also. It would also be of help if you did explain here what you mean by [...leave (MY) thread *alone*...], if you could.
> > > Lou
> >
> >
> > I obviously can't stop you from posting. But, you are hijacking a thread I created that is important to me - with your own agenda. I want to hear from people on this board who have and/or understand bipolar illness, and have experienced or have knowledge of various effective treatments with medications and supplements.
> >
> > I don't want to discuss this with you. I don't want you to respond to me. I don't want you involved in my thread. That you have already buried it in your agenda, I feel like my story - my need for help - has been lost in a swirl of "Lou's reply" posts that are all about your agenda and have nothing to do with the questions I asked. I feel like I need to start a new thread all over again, because I fear so many people just skim over anything with your name on it, that my attempt to get the assistance I want will fall apart because you've taken it over.
> >
> > Again, I realize I can't stop you from posting, but I would be grateful and consider it a generous kindness if you would refrain from involving yourself in the thread I created here to discuss my concerns about my daughter. Your ideas about medication are not something I am interested in. And by the way, it has nothing to do with whether I like you, and my desire for you to not be an obstacle in this thread is not a statement about whether you are a good person, etc. I just need to hear from people, and you are obstructing that by hijacking my thread, which is not considered good forum etiquette.
> >
> > Please don't respond.
> >
> > Solstice
>
> Friends,
> There is the statement here concerning that I have an agenda. Now an agenda is a list if things that one has to do or wants to do or accomplish. An agenda could be of any nature, and this site is for different points of view.
> Now if anyone is not aware of my agenda here, my agenda has the following list:
> A. To save lives
> B. To prevent one from getting a life-ruining condition
> C. To give educational material to help others make a better decision as being more informed concerning as to take mind-altering drugs or to have their children take them or a loved one or friend, or other.
> D. To show how addiction happens and how to overcome addiction
> E. To show how depression happens and how to overcome depresssion
> F. To provide educational material concerning the making of mind-altering drugs and how they were used and for what purpose by whom.
> G. To provide educational material concerning the development of nerve agents and what they can do to the human body and mind
> H. To provide educational material that could give people the understanding of what death is as revealed to me and how to overcome death.
> K. To provide educational material that could show you the chances of getting a life-ruining condition or death from taking psychotropic drugs.
> L. To offer support for those wanting to overcome depression and addiction
> M. To provide educational material that shows the facts about what can happen to one when they combine two or more psychotropic drugs.
> N. To provide educational material concerning the increase of suicide and homocide thinking when people take psychotropic drugs.
> P. To provide educational material that the chances of death could be increased when one takes psychotropic drugs.
> R. To provide suppport and education for other good and just causes
> LouFriends,
It concerns me when I read about a child given mind-altering drugs. You see, does the child go to the doctor and tell him/her to give them mind-altering drugs? It could be a school authority in some jurisdictions, or a parent that leads the child into the world of mind-altering drugs. The child could be innocent and end up with a life-ruining condition, or get an addiction or turn to crime to get drugs such as benzodiazepines or opioid/opiate medication that the child gets addicted to and end up in prison. Then there is the possibility of the child killing themselves as a result of getting akathesia and go into a compelling state to kill themselve and/or others. Then there is the life of someone that has to pay the doctor and the pharmacy for all of that and does not have the money to do so.
Now to the parents here that are reading this and not posting, you may be trying to determine if the road of mind-altering drugs is what you want to have your child go on. Do you know where that road leads to? Could it lead to death?
Here is a link to the chances of death when just taking Lamictal. The chances are greater if Lamictal is combined with other mind-altering drugs that I intend to show here, unless the rule of three appliess.
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal/death
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 12:13:59
In reply to Lou's concern-dherowdtudehth, posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 11:58:41
> > > > Solstice,
> > > > You wrote,[...leave {(MY) thread alone...]].
> > > > That could mean a lot of things,and I do not know what your are wanting to mean by what you wrote. If you are wanting to mean for me to not post in this thread at all, then be advised that others have the freeedom to post in this thread, so I can also, for I am not telling you or anyone else to not post in this thread, since you did write asking for (all) others advise.
> > > > But it is much more than that. You see, I am here to give support and education. There are many people outside of posters in this thread that could be reading this. And you see, there is your daughter also involved here. So my responses could also not be only to you, but to many others that may also have a 17 year-old daughter in the same situation. I want to help not only you and your daughter, but those people also. It would also be of help if you did explain here what you mean by [...leave (MY) thread *alone*...], if you could.
> > > > Lou
> > >
> > >
> > > I obviously can't stop you from posting. But, you are hijacking a thread I created that is important to me - with your own agenda. I want to hear from people on this board who have and/or understand bipolar illness, and have experienced or have knowledge of various effective treatments with medications and supplements.
> > >
> > > I don't want to discuss this with you. I don't want you to respond to me. I don't want you involved in my thread. That you have already buried it in your agenda, I feel like my story - my need for help - has been lost in a swirl of "Lou's reply" posts that are all about your agenda and have nothing to do with the questions I asked. I feel like I need to start a new thread all over again, because I fear so many people just skim over anything with your name on it, that my attempt to get the assistance I want will fall apart because you've taken it over.
> > >
> > > Again, I realize I can't stop you from posting, but I would be grateful and consider it a generous kindness if you would refrain from involving yourself in the thread I created here to discuss my concerns about my daughter. Your ideas about medication are not something I am interested in. And by the way, it has nothing to do with whether I like you, and my desire for you to not be an obstacle in this thread is not a statement about whether you are a good person, etc. I just need to hear from people, and you are obstructing that by hijacking my thread, which is not considered good forum etiquette.
> > >
> > > Please don't respond.
> > >
> > > Solstice
> >
> > Friends,
> > There is the statement here concerning that I have an agenda. Now an agenda is a list if things that one has to do or wants to do or accomplish. An agenda could be of any nature, and this site is for different points of view.
> > Now if anyone is not aware of my agenda here, my agenda has the following list:
> > A. To save lives
> > B. To prevent one from getting a life-ruining condition
> > C. To give educational material to help others make a better decision as being more informed concerning as to take mind-altering drugs or to have their children take them or a loved one or friend, or other.
> > D. To show how addiction happens and how to overcome addiction
> > E. To show how depression happens and how to overcome depresssion
> > F. To provide educational material concerning the making of mind-altering drugs and how they were used and for what purpose by whom.
> > G. To provide educational material concerning the development of nerve agents and what they can do to the human body and mind
> > H. To provide educational material that could give people the understanding of what death is as revealed to me and how to overcome death.
> > K. To provide educational material that could show you the chances of getting a life-ruining condition or death from taking psychotropic drugs.
> > L. To offer support for those wanting to overcome depression and addiction
> > M. To provide educational material that shows the facts about what can happen to one when they combine two or more psychotropic drugs.
> > N. To provide educational material concerning the increase of suicide and homocide thinking when people take psychotropic drugs.
> > P. To provide educational material that the chances of death could be increased when one takes psychotropic drugs.
> > R. To provide suppport and education for other good and just causes
> > Lou
>
> Friends,
> It concerns me when I read about a child given mind-altering drugs. You see, does the child go to the doctor and tell him/her to give them mind-altering drugs? It could be a school authority in some jurisdictions, or a parent that leads the child into the world of mind-altering drugs. The child could be innocent and end up with a life-ruining condition, or get an addiction or turn to crime to get drugs such as benzodiazepines or opioid/opiate medication that the child gets addicted to and end up in prison. Then there is the possibility of the child killing themselves as a result of getting akathesia and go into a compelling state to kill themselve and/or others. Then there is the life of someone that has to pay the doctor and the pharmacy for all of that and does not have the money to do so.
> Now to the parents here that are reading this and not posting, you may be trying to determine if the road of mind-altering drugs is what you want to have your child go on. Do you know where that road leads to? Could it lead to death?
> Here is a link to the chances of death when just taking Lamictal. The chances are greater if Lamictal is combined with other mind-altering drugs that I intend to show here, unless the rule of three appliess.
> Lou
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/lamictal/deathFriends,
if you are concerned as to if psychotropic drugs are what you want for your child, or you are wanting to be a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you view the following video.
Lou
To see this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[youtube,CCHR PSA Psychiatric drugs and Child Suicides]
Posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 13:21:01
In reply to Re: Desperate, posted by bleauberry on February 19, 2012, at 8:58:09
Thanks for writing, Bleu - your contribution is unique..
> This is certainly a heartbreaking story and all of us have experienced, or do experience, to a minor moderate or severe degree. Your comment "worn to a frazzle" only begins to describe the devastation. So sorry!
I appreciate your compassion. There's really nothing as difficult for a parent as watching your child's well-being threatened by something you have little control over.. and it's not like she did anything to bring this on. I would freely and happily offer my life in exchange for her freedom from bipolar... and this is so deeply felt that i would give anything if this could be a trade that could be made.
> Like others have said, Vynase I think is suspect. It doesn't matter that it used to be fine, because of these reasons....
> Our bodies, brains, and diseases are always in motion...not static...and things change/morph with time.This is a good point. I'm going to discuss it with her PDoc on Tuesday.
> While we view meds such as Vynase as therapeutic, keep in mind that when used illegally the end result is almost always bad....any of the amphetamines lead to an eventual downfall...just because it has an authorized prescription attached to it does not change that. That said, Vynase may not be a problem at all, but to me is at least suspect.I'm well aware of the abuse potential for stimulants, but my understanding is that therapeutic doses of stimulants are way too low to provide what an addict would be interested in. In my daughter's case, I'm fortunate in that she is extremely averse to substance addictions. Her father's family has lots of undiagnosed/untreated MI issues, and she has hated what she watched growing up - all the drunken adults, etc. She has some older cousins who have gone on to get themselves in trouble with drugs, etc... and all of this is an extreme turn-off to her. It's all shocking to her, and she is hyper-moral in reaction to watching her own relatives' lives go bad over that stuff.
And remember - there are studies out there that say that with respect to ADHD and the stimulant controversy, kids who are properly diagnosed and treated with stimulants are much less likely to fall into substance abuse. The theory is that kids who are untreated and undiagnosed fall into substance abuse because they are unknowingly 'self-medicating.' Of course, as a parent who has dealt with these issues for two decades, from my foxhole it makes perfect sense to me that an undiagnosed/untreated kid will face social rejection, parental and other authority figure disapproval, and experience a lot of academic performance failures due to school not being a particularly ADHD friendly environment. And as a result, the damage to their self-image can make them very vulnerable to substance-abuse and other social ills (getting in with bad crowds, etc.) Thankfully, my daughter was diagnosed early (if even incompletely), and I jumped right in there to learn everything I could, as fast as I could. So I started very early in my efforts to shape her ideas about herself and about her treatment.
It's funny - her best friend's father is a cardiologist. Very wealthy. The best friend sent my daughter the most amazing, hand-written birthday card. About 7 pages long, lots of written sentiment and adorable drawings. Anyway, the front of the card has a decorative "Happy Birthday" followed by "from your only friend... other than medication." My daughter does have lots of other friends, but this one is her soul-mate BFF and they do see each other as playing an especially exclusive role in each others' lives. Anyway, what that comment told me is that she has told this friend that she KNOWS that her medication is what enables *her* (my daughter) to be on the surface, and not buried underneath bipolar symptoms. So.. at least for my daughter, medication is really what saved her at 14. If the bipolar had not been recognized and treated, I fear I'd be spending my energy dealing with the criminal system and rehabs, because that is where she was headed. But as it stands right now, she is very bright, excels academically (at least before this hypomanic/manic episode took over) - and takes pre-ap and ap classes, has played a lead role in a big play at our very competitive high school, has unbelievable vocal talent and has won numerous awards at solo and ensemble competitions, and plays the piano. So, she has thrived under treatment - until this latest issue - which I am just desperate to get figured out.
That said, I really do recognize that her physical development could easily be factoring into throwing meds out of whack, and she may need less of something, or complete removal of something that has worked before... so I'm going to check on that
>
> Not sure why Zyprexa was not considered, but I would personally put more hope and trust in that one than any of its peers.
>I don't know.. except that her dr did want to start with the ones that are less likely to cause weight gain. And Geodon worked like a charm. Now that we're in this crisis, though, and the Latuda is seeming to fall flat, her dr. is likely to consider other meds
> I think other things need to be looked at. I'm trying to think, what are some of the issues that struggling mothers find in their troubled kids? You know, the guerrilla medicine stuff that patients are forced in to when doctors alone fall short? Well, probably the most common issue is toxicity...usually lead and/or mercury. Might want to study up on DMSA and chelation, if for no other reason to know that the whole issue actually exists and is behind bizarre symptoms of many kids. It is a gray area, and some medical elites will poo-poo the whole thing, and of course their patients are the ones probably staying sick. Mothers know what works. Chelation is one of their more successful tools. Where did the toxins come from at such a young age? Maybe passed on from the mother? Something unknown in the living environment? How about immunization shots, many of which have mercury as a preservative? If a person is defective in certain genes, they will tend to accumulate and store toxins rather than normally excrete them. Thus easy toxicity from even miniscule exposure. And the obvious brain bizarreness that would follow.I've heard about this stuff of course. I know for certain that she has not been exposed to lead. She does not have mercury fillings. She's had all her immunizations, but those were long ago and she had no reaction - in that there were no changes. I have never drank, smoked, or done any drugs.. so she did not get exposed to those things during pregnancy.
>
> Has she tried a gluten free diet? How about dairy free? Many of the gray area pros and mothers find dairy to be a factor in the bizarre psychiatric symptoms of kids. Study up on gluten, how it destroys the cilia lining in the intestines, and how that wreaks havoc on the nervous system by allowing large undigested molecules to enter straight into the bloodstream and of course obvious impact on the workings in the brain.Now the gluten/dairy is probably worth experimenting with. I used to work with a woman who was on a gluten-free diet, but I don't know what kinds of symptoms guten-sensitivity causes.
> Lots of people with lyme disease or similar occult hidden infections display bizarre patterns and histories very much like what you have seen. People freak out because they think that I think everyone has lyme disease, because I mention this all the time, but the true scenario is that if the profile fits it has to be considered and not thrown out in haste. The profile fits. A two week blind trial of an antibiotic such as Doxycycline would provide most of the clues to make a fairly solid clinical diagnosis one way or the other, rule it in or rule it out. It has to be ruled out before tossing the idea away. Only a trial can provide the "pattern" response to know.She has never been in an area that would expose her to lyme disease.. she has never even had a tick.
>
> In terms of meds, wow, that is a tough one. I mentioned zyprexa already. I'm also thinking that in some situations such as this one, the patient may actually do better on a combo of antidepressants and benzos, avoiding the mood stabilizers. Those who operate in a black-and-white world of bipolar versus unipolar would disagree, claiming antidepressants are trouble and mood stabilizers are mandatory. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Can't make a blanket treatment based on a word such as bipolar or whatever....we have to try stuff to see what helps or what hurts, and sometimes the things we find helpful we can't explain why.Yeah.. we're just now starting on a 'real' med journey. After diagnosis, we first tried Abilify and that was a very quick disaster. She was only on it two or three weeks, and then we went to Geodon and had absolute and enduring success. I don't think her PDoc would even consider benzos for her right now because she is not yet 18 (she made a comment at last apt about being limited in what she can try because of my daughter's age. So.. we'll have to see what PDoc thinks at pt on Tuesday
>
> The whole thing is too gray to approach with a cookie cutter protocol (as in stimulant for ADHD and mood stabilizer for bipolar)....it just aint that straight forward.
You're right. The ADHD/Bipolar combo makes things very, very complicated.
>
> I know you need ideas right now that will help fast. I don't know what that would be, except maybe zyprexa. But since she is so young, there is a real long battle ahead....and that's why I am stressing....screaming from the hilltops actually....to gain firm command of the issues I've mentioned here. Because those are the very issues other mothers in your shoes are finding helpful. The meds by themselves are rarely the answer. We get lucky sometimes, as you already experienced, and that can land us in a false sense of security that we can get lucky like that again and again. I wish. Just don't see that happen hardly ever.
I hear you. Medical science is not perfect.. and there is so much that we don't know. It's what we've got, though, and our 3-year success is proof-positive that it *can* work, and work well. That does not diminish the importance of other avenues, though.
>
> Battle evil with all you've got and every weapon you can get your hands on. Meds are only a part of that war. Next comment maybe could appear off topic, IMO directly on topic, Jesus wants to be involved in this war so if you haven't personally asked Him to join you, something to consider. He promised wisdom to any who would ask for it.Well, I don't want to see bipolar as 'evil,' because I don't want my daughter to see herself as at war with evil. She's got a lifelong illness that she's going to have to manage and stay on top of.. but there are some flip-sides to it that are kind of positive. She's very creative, funny as all-get out, and a very interesting, lively young woman. We're just in crisis right now.
>
> I like all the approaches mentioned here (wish they were my own ideas). What I like about them is they demonstrate true healing potential, risks are low, expense low, and suitable for a lifetime.
YOUR ideas are equally valuable, and I thank you for contributing them.Solstice
Posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 13:43:36
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by Phillipa on February 19, 2012, at 10:52:45
Hi Phillipa
> Just got on the board wow Soltice things are not good right now and I'm seriously so sorry for your whole family. I quickly read the whole thread. I see her thyroid hasn't been tested. This rather angers me as that should be the first thing checked. Especially due to her age evolving hormonal changes and being on lithium.
Well.. there really hasn't been a reason yet to check her thyroid functioning. She's only been on lithium now for three weeks.. but I'm going to ask about it on Tuesday - mainly because of family history. It's sure worth checking on, because a malfunctioning thyroid literally affects everything - especially emotional/mental stability. It would almost be wonderful to find out that it's her thyroid causing the problem, because then maybe we could just add thyroid medication and go back to Geodon and Vyvanse, and get rid of the other stuff :-)
Solstice
Posted by Hugh on February 19, 2012, at 15:12:38
In reply to Desperate, posted by Solstice on February 18, 2012, at 21:08:07
This is from Discover Magazine:
Researchers at the Chemical Abuse Centers in Boardman, Ohio, found that combining magnesium oxide with the drug verapamil helped control manic symptoms in patients better than a drug-placebo combination.
This comes from livestrong.com
Magnesium sulphate was found to be an effective supplementary treatment of severe manic agitation in a study published in the December 1999 issue of "Psychiatry Research." Patients with initial resistance to medication combinations of lithium, haloperidol and clonazepam markedly improved with the addition of magnesium sulphate.
There's a Psycho-Babble thread about magnesium l-threonate you can scroll up to read. It's a new form of magnesium that's much better at crossing the blood-brain barrier than other forms of magnesium.
This article appeared in Discover Magazine in 2005. It's about a multivitamin that was formulated to treat bipolar disorder.
Posted by sigismund on February 19, 2012, at 15:32:08
In reply to Desperate, posted by Solstice on February 18, 2012, at 21:08:07
With our kids I was very concerned not to medicalise the normal intractable problems of life. We could easily have done that. There is an alternative view about disease progression. I really do feel it would have been a disaster for us to have medicalised a very difficult situation. Rightly or wrongly. And I am sceptical about ADHD and bipolar diagnoses.
I don't know anything about those drugs. I would be so worried. Her body is still developing and is being affected by the drugs, they aren't working well and our knowledge is so limited.
I wish I could say something more helpful.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 16:13:52
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by herpills on February 18, 2012, at 22:15:43
> I'm sorry to hear your daughter is not doing well. My opinion is it seems like the meds need to get straightened out first. From what I understand you are saying she dropped the Geodon and then is put on Lamictal, Lithium, and Latuda? I just feel like she is on too many meds, but I know it's hard if she has ADHD and bipolar. Keep working with her doctor and also take advantage of any non- med options that could help. Is she involved in any activities that help her focus/calm?
herpills,
You wrote,[...take advantage of any non-med options...]
Thanks, I think that's good
Lou
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 19, 2012, at 16:15:12
In reply to Re: Desperate » SLS, posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 0:45:12
>I'll bet Depakote has been studied in children, since it is an anti-epileptic.
Valproate (Depakote, Epilim etc) is one of the most widely used long-term medications in children. In fact, it is used much more in children and young people than any of the other meds than your daughter is taking! Valproate is a first-line drug for most forms of epilepsy in children, being effective against a wide range of different epilepsy subtypes.
Valproate sometimes causes weight gain, but probably less than most antipsychotics. Contraception should be prescribed where appropriate because valproate is not safe during pregnancy.
Few drugs have received much study specifically for childhood bipolar disorder, and so there is a tendency to use drugs in a similar manner to in adulthood (especially for older teenagers).
A few considerations.....
1. Valproate is generally more effective for manic symptoms than Lamictal. Lamictal is more useful for depressive symptoms.
2. If Latuda is not beneficial, it may be wise to taper off it - if the doctor advises.
3. If lithium is not effective after a few weeks, or if it is not tolerated, valproate might prove to be a suitable replacement.
4. Since valproate interacts with Lamictal, the dose will require adjustment. If Lamictal is not clearly beneficial, it may be tapered prior to starting valproate.
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 16:17:14
In reply to Re: Desperate, posted by papillon2 on February 18, 2012, at 23:13:52
> Her Lithium dose (90mg) is tiny, much less than the amounts even prescribed to augment anti-depressants in unipolar depression. You'll know when the blood level comes back, but I'm guessing it is minute and could be increased substantially. Lithium is the gold standard for bipolar and is very good for mania.
>
> Are the shaky hands definitely coming from Lithium and not something else? I'm not doubting that it COULD be Lithium as I myself an extremely sensitive to Lithium and have toxicity symptoms at low doses (125-250mg). It just sounds like a lot of meds were added at the same time, which would be confusing for anyone in deducing which side effects come from each med. And as I said, that Lithium dose is TINY.
>
> I think the side effects of Lithium are greatly overplayed. It is prescribed in much lower doses than it used to be and kidney and thyroid functioning are carefully monitored. I'd take it over an atypical anti-psychotic any day; the side effects of AAPs are far worse in my opinion.
>
> Lamictal and Topamax are the only bipolar meds I can think of that don't cause weight gain in most people. However, while Topamax generally makes people lose weight it can produce significant cognitive impairment ("Californian Barbie Syndrome"). I agree that a blood relative performing well on Lamictal is reason enough to stick with it.
>
> You may find this article helpful if you are concerned about cardiometabolic side effects. Refer to table 1 in particular: https://www.cmellc.com/CMEActivities/tabid/54/ctl/ActivityController/mid/545/activityid/2205/Default.aspxpapillion2,
You wrote,[...can produce significant cognitive impairment...]
Thank's. I think that's good
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 16:18:43
In reply to Re: Desperate, posted by sigismund on February 18, 2012, at 23:20:10
> I would be taking things away rather than adding more.
Sig,
You wrote the above. Thanks, I think that's good
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 16:32:23
In reply to Re: Desperate, posted by bleauberry on February 19, 2012, at 8:58:09
> This is certainly a heartbreaking story and all of us have experienced, or do experience, to a minor moderate or severe degree. Your comment "worn to a frazzle" only begins to describe the devastation. So sorry!
>
> Like others have said, Vynase I think is suspect. It doesn't matter that it used to be fine, because of these reasons....
> Our bodies, brains, and diseases are always in motion...not static...and things change/morph with time. While we view meds such as Vynase as therapeutic, keep in mind that when used illegally the end result is almost always bad....any of the amphetamines lead to an eventual downfall...just because it has an authorized prescription attached to it does not change that. That said, Vynase may not be a problem at all, but to me is at least suspect.
>
> Not sure why Zyprexa was not considered, but I would personally put more hope and trust in that one than any of its peers.
>
> I think other things need to be looked at. I'm trying to think, what are some of the issues that struggling mothers find in their troubled kids? You know, the guerrilla medicine stuff that patients are forced in to when doctors alone fall short? Well, probably the most common issue is toxicity...usually lead and/or mercury. Might want to study up on DMSA and chelation, if for no other reason to know that the whole issue actually exists and is behind bizarre symptoms of many kids. It is a gray area, and some medical elites will poo-poo the whole thing, and of course their patients are the ones probably staying sick. Mothers know what works. Chelation is one of their more successful tools. Where did the toxins come from at such a young age? Maybe passed on from the mother? Something unknown in the living environment? How about immunization shots, many of which have mercury as a preservative? If a person is defective in certain genes, they will tend to accumulate and store toxins rather than normally excrete them. Thus easy toxicity from even miniscule exposure. And the obvious brain bizarreness that would follow.
>
> Has she tried a gluten free diet? How about dairy free? Many of the gray area pros and mothers find dairy to be a factor in the bizarre psychiatric symptoms of kids. Study up on gluten, how it destroys the cilia lining in the intestines, and how that wreaks havoc on the nervous system by allowing large undigested molecules to enter straight into the bloodstream and of course obvious impact on the workings in the brain.
>
> Lots of people with lyme disease or similar occult hidden infections display bizarre patterns and histories very much like what you have seen. People freak out because they think that I think everyone has lyme disease, because I mention this all the time, but the true scenario is that if the profile fits it has to be considered and not thrown out in haste. The profile fits. A two week blind trial of an antibiotic such as Doxycycline would provide most of the clues to make a fairly solid clinical diagnosis one way or the other, rule it in or rule it out. It has to be ruled out before tossing the idea away. Only a trial can provide the "pattern" response to know.
>
> In terms of meds, wow, that is a tough one. I mentioned zyprexa already. I'm also thinking that in some situations such as this one, the patient may actually do better on a combo of antidepressants and benzos, avoiding the mood stabilizers. Those who operate in a black-and-white world of bipolar versus unipolar would disagree, claiming antidepressants are trouble and mood stabilizers are mandatory. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Can't make a blanket treatment based on a word such as bipolar or whatever....we have to try stuff to see what helps or what hurts, and sometimes the things we find helpful we can't explain why.
>
> The whole thing is too gray to approach with a cookie cutter protocol (as in stimulant for ADHD and mood stabilizer for bipolar)....it just aint that straight forward.
>
> Reduction of stored toxins, reduction of toxin exposure, careful choices of foods and experiments finding which aggravate, which help, and which are neutral. Most likely troubles from gluten and dairy. Self test for hidden infections.
>
> I know you need ideas right now that will help fast. I don't know what that would be, except maybe zyprexa. But since she is so young, there is a real long battle ahead....and that's why I am stressing....screaming from the hilltops actually....to gain firm command of the issues I've mentioned here. Because those are the very issues other mothers in your shoes are finding helpful. The meds by themselves are rarely the answer. We get lucky sometimes, as you already experienced, and that can land us in a false sense of security that we can get lucky like that again and again. I wish. Just don't see that happen hardly ever.
>
> Battle evil with all you've got and every weapon you can get your hands on. Meds are only a part of that war. Next comment maybe could appear off topic, IMO directly on topic, Jesus wants to be involved in this war so if you haven't personally asked Him to join you, something to consider. He promised wisdom to any who would ask for it.
>
> I like all the approaches mentioned here (wish they were my own ideas). What I like about them is they demonstrate true healing potential, risks are low, expense low, and suitable for a lifetime.bleau,
You wrote,[...just because it has an authorized prescription attached to it...]
Thanks, I think that's good.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 16:36:17
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by sigismund on February 19, 2012, at 15:32:08
> With our kids I was very concerned not to medicalise the normal intractable problems of life. We could easily have done that. There is an alternative view about disease progression. I really do feel it would have been a disaster for us to have medicalised a very difficult situation. Rightly or wrongly. And I am sceptical about ADHD and bipolar diagnoses.
>
> I don't know anything about those drugs. I would be so worried. Her body is still developing and is being affected by the drugs, they aren't working well and our knowledge is so limited.
>
> I wish I could say something more helpful.Sig,
Thanks for what you posted here. It could go a long way in helping people make a more informed decision as to have their child take mind-altering drugs.
Lou
Posted by Solstice on February 19, 2012, at 17:20:51
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by sigismund on February 19, 2012, at 15:32:08
> With our kids I was very concerned not to medicalise the normal intractable problems of life. We could easily have done that. There is an alternative view about disease progression. I really do feel it would have been a disaster for us to have medicalised a very difficult situation. Rightly or wrongly. And I am sceptical about ADHD and bipolar diagnoses.
I understand, and do think there really are people who have unrealistic expectations about child/adolescent behavior and may be too quick to think normal child behavior is 'abnormal' and in need of treatment with medications. That said, in my daughter's case, believe me - there was no question. Even after she was settled on Geodon and I considered the turnaround miraculous, believe me, she was still fully adolescent with all of its accompanying difficulties. :-)
> I don't know anything about those drugs. I would be so worried. Her body is still developing and is being affected by the drugs, they aren't working well and our knowledge is so limited.I understand those concerns as well. I tend to have a high tolerance for 'pain' so her bipolar could have easily been overlooked. That said, her symptoms (at diagnosis 3 yrs ago) were catastrophic enough that after things settled down, she thanked me repeatedly for not letting it go.. for addressing it aggressively. She does not think she would have had the relatively good live she's had so far if the bipolar had not been caught and treated.
There is risk in everything. Treating, of course, has risks. But failing to find effective treatment for mental illness also has catastrophic risks such as: suicide - and destroyed relationships, finances, careers, etc.
> I wish I could say something more helpful.I appreciate your input.
Solstice
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 17:25:00
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by Phillipa on February 19, 2012, at 10:52:45
> Just got on the board wow Soltice things are not good right now and I'm seriously so sorry for your whole family. I quickly read the whole thread. I see her thyroid hasn't been tested. This rather angers me as that should be the first thing checked. Especially due to her age evolving hormonal changes and being on lithium. I'd seriously get all other illnesses ruled out and then tackle meds more throughly. Seriously the thyroid I found so often was involved in mental illness when working. What if it was this? And at her age raging hormones sure complicate the picture. You mentioned Sister is she suffering from mental illness? I'm so sorry but I have witnessed lithium causing the shaking of the hands that tremor and on very low doses also. Phillipa
Phillipa,
You wrote the above about checking thyroid. Thanks, I think that's good.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 19, 2012, at 17:30:45
In reply to Re: Desperate » Solstice, posted by sigismund on February 19, 2012, at 15:32:08
> With our kids I was very concerned not to medicalise the normal intractable problems of life. We could easily have done that. There is an alternative view about disease progression. I really do feel it would have been a disaster for us to have medicalised a very difficult situation. Rightly or wrongly. And I am sceptical about ADHD and bipolar diagnoses.
>
> I don't know anything about those drugs. I would be so worried. Her body is still developing and is being affected by the drugs, they aren't working well and our knowledge is so limited.
>
> I wish I could say something more helpful.Sig and friends,
I appreciate what sig has posted here because it has support from psychologists and doctors. If you are interested in seeing a video that supports Sig's posting here, I invite you to view the following.
Lou
To see this video:
A. Pull up Google
B. Type in:
[youtube, Drugging our children w/Psychiatry's antipsychotic drugs]
you will see a pic of Dr John Breeding
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
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