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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by poser938 on February 18, 2012, at 20:50:46
such as, could i go to my regular doc, and if i make the case to him that im in such a dysfunctional state, and since rTMS didnt help me. since ECT could disable me even more. and if i showed him some legitimate studies on ketamine working amazingly well for depression in some people... could he give me ketamine? could he just give me an injection at the office?
right now im trying to get into a ketamine clinical trial, but this is just more complicated and it would obviiously be much easier if i could get it from my regular doctor.
Posted by Christ_empowered on February 18, 2012, at 21:33:28
In reply to could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by poser938 on February 18, 2012, at 20:50:46
No. Do you know any veterinarians?
Posted by poser938 on February 18, 2012, at 21:40:05
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by Christ_empowered on February 18, 2012, at 21:33:28
oh.. i didnt know it was strictly a veterinarian drug.
Posted by papillon2 on February 18, 2012, at 23:21:40
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by poser938 on February 18, 2012, at 21:40:05
It's not solely used by vets, but a vet could lose his/her job giving ketamine to a person. I know you're desparate, but please don't go in that direction.
Maybe a psychiatrist could prescribe ketamine?
Good luck getting into the drug trial.
Posted by poser938 on February 18, 2012, at 23:52:46
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by papillon2 on February 18, 2012, at 23:21:40
hehe nooo i wasnt even thinking about going to a vet to try and get it. that would be awkward.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on February 19, 2012, at 6:02:45
In reply to could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by poser938 on February 18, 2012, at 20:50:46
>such as, could i go to my regular doc, and if i make the case to him that im in such a dysfunctional state, and since rTMS didnt help me. since ECT could disable me even more. and if i showed him some legitimate studies on ketamine working amazingly well for depression in some people... could he give me ketamine? could he just give me an injection at the office?
Your doc certainly won't have ketamine in his office, not would he inject it personally.
At a large general hospital, they will have some in the hospital pharmacy and in the anesthesia department.
Your doctor would need to liase with an anesthesiologist to find out whether they will give you an injection. At the doses used (eg. 0.5mg/kg), there would not be much work for the anesthetist, but supervision would be needed for several hours in case of a bad reaction, such as hallucinations. Low doses of ketamine have little effect on breathing but there can be some cardiovascular stimulation (heart rate and/or BP temporarily increased) - this is not likely to be a problem unless you have heart disease. A nurse would monitor. If hallucinations or panic occurred, short-acting benzodiazepines are useful.
You would, of course, need someone to drive you home afterwards.
Posted by Iansf on February 19, 2012, at 16:55:42
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by ed_uk2010 on February 19, 2012, at 6:02:45
>> Your doc certainly won't have ketamine in his office, not would he inject it personally.
>
> At a large general hospital, they will have some in the hospital pharmacy and in the anesthesia department.
>
> Your doctor would need to liase with an anesthesiologist to find out whether they will give you an injection. At the doses used (eg. 0.5mg/kg), there would not be much work for the anesthetist, but supervision would be needed for several hours in case of a bad reaction, such as hallucinations. Low doses of ketamine have little effect on breathing but there can be some cardiovascular stimulation (heart rate and/or BP temporarily increased) - this is not likely to be a problem unless you have heart disease. A nurse would monitor. If hallucinations or panic occurred, short-acting benzodiazepines are useful.
>
> You would, of course, need someone to drive you home afterwards.There are discussions on this board about intranasal, sublingual and oral use of ketamine, at much lower doses than are given intravenously. Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware nobody involved in the discussions seems to know exactly what dose to use in these cases. These methods of delivery would not entail going into a hospital for treatment.
Posted by emmanuel98 on February 19, 2012, at 18:28:03
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by Iansf on February 19, 2012, at 16:55:42
I think ketamine is a schedule 1 substance, so no psych could prescribe it.
Posted by Twinleaf on February 19, 2012, at 18:59:08
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by emmanuel98 on February 19, 2012, at 18:28:03
Actually, it isn't scheduled at all, and can be given by any physician, although this is rarely done. My pdoc, as I mentioned in a previous post here, has had 100-200 mg doses formulated by a compounding pharmacy for one bipolar patient of his who has been extremely treatment-resistant. It is the first medication which has really helped him. In answer to my question, he said that low, oral doses pose a low risk of addiction or escalating use.
Posted by Twinleaf on February 19, 2012, at 19:12:29
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine. » emmanuel98, posted by Twinleaf on February 19, 2012, at 18:59:08
Ketamine is schedule 2, like morphine, in the US, but can be prescribed by any doctor. It is schedule 1 in Canada, like heroin, and thus requires special permits to be prescribed there. Sorry for my mistake!
Posted by poser938 on February 19, 2012, at 19:20:03
In reply to I was wrong..., posted by Twinleaf on February 19, 2012, at 19:12:29
actually ketamine is schedule 3 according to every site that popped up when i typed it in, including wikipedia. which means it is seen as safer with less potential abuse than meds like adderall.
Posted by 10derheart on February 20, 2012, at 0:08:34
In reply to Re: I was wrong..., posted by poser938 on February 19, 2012, at 19:20:03
Yup, DEA website says III as of Nov 2011. I'd suppose they are the most official....
Posted by Twinleaf on February 20, 2012, at 1:31:03
In reply to Re: I was wrong... » poser938, posted by 10derheart on February 20, 2012, at 0:08:34
They did lower it from Schedule 2 to Schedule 3 last November.
My pdoc has only given it to one person orally, but said that he would be comfortable giving it IM and watching his patient for an hour, if that worked better - not IV, though, in his outpatient practice.
Posted by poser938 on February 20, 2012, at 4:32:48
In reply to You're right, posted by Twinleaf on February 20, 2012, at 1:31:03
what does IM mean?
Posted by Twinleaf on February 20, 2012, at 7:20:32
In reply to Re: You're right, posted by poser938 on February 20, 2012, at 4:32:48
Intramuscular (by a shot into a muscle)
Posted by Iansf on February 20, 2012, at 14:08:43
In reply to You're right, posted by Twinleaf on February 20, 2012, at 1:31:03
> My pdoc has only given it to one person orally, but said that he would be comfortable giving it IM and watching his patient for an hour, if that worked better - not IV, though, in his outpatient practice.<
It would still be good to learn what dosages are being used for non-intravenous therapy. Your doctor says he has given it to one person orally, but in what amount? And how was that achieved? As far as I'm aware, ketamine is typically sold in liquid form.Actually, I don't even know how much recreational ketamine users typically take, or how they take it, so when people say a much smaller dose than clubbers take, I have little idea what that means. Does anyone here know?
Posted by Twinleaf on February 20, 2012, at 14:18:50
In reply to Re: You're right » Twinleaf, posted by Iansf on February 20, 2012, at 14:08:43
There's a thread just above where I describe that: he uses a compounding pharmacist and doses of 100-200 mg. once daily
Posted by Hugh on February 22, 2012, at 12:20:30
In reply to Re: You're right, posted by Twinleaf on February 20, 2012, at 14:18:50
I found this on NeuroTalk. I wasn't aware that so many doctors use ketamine for pain management. Nancy Sajben is the only one I know of on the list who uses ketamine to treat depression.
Posted by JohnLA on February 22, 2012, at 14:16:51
In reply to ketamine doctor list, posted by Hugh on February 22, 2012, at 12:20:30
hugh and all-
dr sajben is the doc i will be seeing in late march. she made no promises, but said she has been having good results using ketamine both intra-nasally (is that a word) and sublingually.
just from my phone conversation i could tell she had a good 'bed-side manner.' she was not rushed in her conversation with me and actually returned my call the same day.
she mentioned she can find psych's who will prescribe it, if your doc will not.
hope the ketamine is as nice to me as she was on the phone.
thanks for providing the list too by the way.
john
Posted by Paul_NEPA on February 24, 2012, at 8:27:08
In reply to Re: ketamine doctor list, posted by JohnLA on February 22, 2012, at 14:16:51
> hugh and all-
>
> dr sajben is the doc i will be seeing in late march. she made no promises, but said she has been having good results using ketamine both intra-nasally (is that a word) and sublingually.
>
> just from my phone conversation i could tell she had a good 'bed-side manner.' she was not rushed in her conversation with me and actually returned my call the same day.
>
> she mentioned she can find psych's who will prescribe it, if your doc will not.
>
> hope the ketamine is as nice to me as she was on the phone.
>
> thanks for providing the list too by the way.
>
> johnHi John and thanks for your very useful posts. I live in Pennsylvania and am in the process of making an appointment to see Dr. Sajben in SD. The travel, stay requirement of several weeks and associated costs make this a notable committment for me. I'd love to exchange notes with you on the experience.
I'm new to the site so I'm not sure of all the rules. I don't want to run afoul of any. Are we allowed to exchange contact information or email addresses with group members?
Posted by shot_away on February 24, 2012, at 15:21:47
In reply to could a regular doctor give me a ketamine., posted by poser938 on February 18, 2012, at 20:50:46
From my experience, ketamine is useless, or at least hardly worth taking orally. I've snorted it which works, so any injections will work. Personally I would class it as an hallucinogenic, and causes paralysis. I know it is used occasionally for operations, esp for kids, where the patient needs to remain numb and feel no pain, but MUST be awake during the operation. The amnesia caused helps the patient forget any vividness during the op. But relief from depression? I cannot get my head around that, as it usually leaves one rather vacant and 'down'. It is a high after all
Posted by JohnLA on February 24, 2012, at 16:54:58
In reply to Re: ketamine doctor list )) JohnLA, posted by Paul_NEPA on February 24, 2012, at 8:27:08
hi paul-
sorry you are in need to see the same doc i am. depression truly sucks.
i am wiling to exchange contact info with you. there is feature here at babble called 'babblemail.' we can exchange secure contact info thru that.
i'll leave it up to you how to turn the darn 'babblemail' on (and teach me) and then we can talk. the instructions are somewhere here on the site. my brain is too tired to look right now.
i hope that this ketamine deal brings you some peace.
take care.
john
Posted by JohnLA on February 24, 2012, at 17:16:28
In reply to Re: could a regular doctor give me a ketamine. » poser938, posted by shot_away on February 24, 2012, at 15:21:47
love your nickname-
not trying to pick a fight or start an argument, but your post about ketamine is a real downer. many of us are extremely hopeless (you may be too) and your experience with ketamine, i am assuming, and please correct me if i am wrong, was using it to get high. again, i apologize if this is incorrect.
the use of ketamine for depression is far removed from using it to get high and falling into the 'k-hole' or subsequent crash that follows a drug induced high. especially from a drug like ketamine.
i've been doing quite a bit of research and there are clinical studies (several) going on right now using very low dose amounts of ketamine for depression (intra-nasally mostly). compared to the amount needed to get high (and then also crash) the amount is anywhere from 1% to 10% of what drug abusers would typically use. also, dosing is not daily. it can vary greatly depending on the individual.
again, i am not attacking you. i'm just feeling so hopeless that i guess i am a bit too sensitive to your dismissive attitude towards ketamine treating depression. it's working for some people. i am praying that it works for me.
hope is a very powerful anti-depressant. i also realize that false hope can be as evil as depression itself. in my heart right now i have true hope that ketamine may help me and some others.
thanks for letting me speak my mind shot away. i'm hoping that you find whatever it takes to get your health back.
john
Posted by shot_away on February 25, 2012, at 17:32:47
In reply to @ shot away, posted by JohnLA on February 24, 2012, at 17:16:28
> love your nickname-
>
> not trying to pick a fight or start an argument, but your post about ketamine is a real downer. many of us are extremely hopeless (you may be too) and your experience with ketamine, i am assuming, and please correct me if i am wrong, was using it to get high. again, i apologize if this is incorrect.
>
> the use of ketamine for depression is far removed from using it to get high and falling into the 'k-hole' or subsequent crash that follows a drug induced high. especially from a drug like ketamine.
>
> i've been doing quite a bit of research and there are clinical studies (several) going on right now using very low dose amounts of ketamine for depression (intra-nasally mostly). compared to the amount needed to get high (and then also crash) the amount is anywhere from 1% to 10% of what drug abusers would typically use. also, dosing is not daily. it can vary greatly depending on the individual.
>
> again, i am not attacking you. i'm just feeling so hopeless that i guess i am a bit too sensitive to your dismissive attitude towards ketamine treating depression. it's working for some people. i am praying that it works for me.
>
> hope is a very powerful anti-depressant. i also realize that false hope can be as evil as depression itself. in my heart right now i have true hope that ketamine may help me and some others.
>
> thanks for letting me speak my mind shot away. i'm hoping that you find whatever it takes to get your health back.
>
> john
>
>No offence taken. And yes i was talking about high doses, at least a dose that u can feel. Tolerance happens quickly also with higher 'recreational' doses. But as ive never hear of low dose ketamine for depression, i'm interested enough to do a little research myself.
Sometimes i need to remember to just bite my tongue before speaking. Did not mean to put down ur ideas. And sorry you feel the need for such unusual measures to get some relief. I hope that relief comes soon enough.
Posted by poser938 on February 27, 2012, at 22:05:18
In reply to Re: @ shot away » JohnLA, posted by shot_away on February 25, 2012, at 17:32:47
i read someones post on here saying that when it comes to ketamine being used for depression, "less is more." i dont know the full details, but i guess it means that lowers doses work better for depression than high doses.
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