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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 68 to 92 of 142. Go back in thread:
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 21:27:45
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 20:43:05
Olivia-I called you Olive! Sorry! I guess you are like the olive in the martini glass of this thread now..but since you gave us the ok to 'carry on'....
Thanks Morgan, I wasn't sure if you were having a bad day or something :(
I might do advocacy work someday...or start doing volunteer work for a non-profit once i get back to full functioning. I thought about going back to school for psychology as well but can't while in psychoanalytic therapy, among other things...
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 21:43:05
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by Phillipa on September 5, 2010, at 21:13:01
Philippa, unsure if anyone can classify it unless there is a medical condition...it 'runs in my family' too....
Glen Gabbard's "Psychodynamic Psychiatry in Clinical Practice" includes case examples of people with GAD...and other cases I've seen seem to always trace anxiety back to unconcious psychological conflict.
http://www.amazon.com/Psychodynamic-Psychiatry-Clinical-Practice-4th/dp/1585621854
You can obviously get similar symptoms from blood sugar and other medical problems...
I think people with a certain temperments-those who are more introverted or less angry/aggressive-or those who were not allowed to express anger in any way while growing up-tend to develop anxiety more than those with other temperments who sometimes develop more bipolar like tendencies...from what i've read, it's often an unconscious conflict about anger, but can involve other emotions.
I used to have GAD for 2 decades (and other types of anxiety), but now in therapy, have had weekly panic attacks that fluctuate around emotional conflicts we work through.
Now that i am conscious of the conflicts after my T dismantled some defense mechanisms, they occur even during session now. They get extreme, then dissipate when I leave. I don't even know if my therapist is comfortable with seeing me suffer like that, as i don't want to take meds for session to experience the full range of emotions-but I am getting so much better in other domains it is worth every bit of suffering and i'm confident the anxiety will lessen and eventually go into remission unless some traumatic life event brings it back to the surface at a later time.
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 23:01:03
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 5, 2010, at 12:49:05
Ed,
I see that scenerio as well. I always think the 2 are intertwined-not one vs the other...not either or...i think it's always some component of both. thats just my opinion but i like that you brought up that scenerio as no one else did.
Posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 23:09:07
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 21:27:45
Violette, I'm pretty sure you can at least get an MS while in therapy. Maybe it's grad school and a PhD program that requires you to not be in therapy. Are you sure that is a requirement?
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 23:31:34
In reply to Re: disability » olivia12, posted by proudfoot on August 29, 2010, at 14:32:53
Proudfoot,
No, i didn't take your post to me as personal criticism, as i wasn't criticizing anyone, so that's ok...
I went back and read your story, it was really sad. Sometimes people might think oh you're lucky you went to school and are educated, etc., but then I think sometimes it can be worse to achieve and have it sort of taken from you by force by the illness as opposed to having nothing to start with. I've been in both situations, but differently...not speaking of losing a loved one here, but in terms of general disability.
Smart of you to take a disability policy; i haven't thought about doing that and now will consider it. My family member had to give up about 50% of benefits (out of the whopping $700/month awarded) to pay the attorney, and as you mentioned about medical records-the mental hospital wrote false information in the records to protect themselves (i was there, keen and of sound mind, and witnessed everything). She was in a wheelchair, legs crushed, multiple surgeries, unable to use the bathroom herself let alone work; later heavily sedated by Halidol-yet still denied disability as most everyone is automatically denied. And i had to do much of the fighting despite my own illness, as she was not as sound minded.
When you don't have much, and those around you don't have much, you don't expect much-sometimes financial loss isn't as traumatic if you are used to frequent financial losses...that's only the financial aspect though. The dignity, i think, is what hurts the most-in many cases. Like with Olivia's situation-it seems dignity might have been a factor as her husband worked hard-but received no 'credit' for it....
But if all you have is your health then lose all dignity, such as Leo's situation...Gosh Leo the way you described your situation-painted a vividly emotional, but dark and sad picture in my mind...I wish we could help in some way.
Posted by violette on September 6, 2010, at 0:46:59
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 23:09:07
Morgan, i was only thinking of the intense affect states brough about by the therapy...lol. Didn't even think of that. I do not have what it takes to be a therapist, at any rate...I would not pursue psychology for that reason; I'd use the education another way...lots of thoughts. thanx
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 6:55:05
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 17:05:29
> > > Scott, I really think that rarely ever and maybe never have mental illness developed solely out of biology.
> >
> > It is difficult to separate the individual from its environment when observing it.
> >
> > Line up 100 people. How many of them do you think will have an ideal developmental environment?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> Not many, maybe a few out of 100. I know you didn't really expect me to answer that, you were just making a point. Just thought I'd chime in on what I thought.Actually, I was hoping that you would give me that answer. If more than 50 people have less than ideal environments, why is it that only 10 people will suffer from major depressive disorder? What are the differences between these people?
To further amplify my point, why are other stress-induced or stress-exacerbated illnesses considered biological and not psychological? Psoriasis is a biological disease. Even simple relaxation techniques can be of help. Some researchers even believe that psychotherapeutic interventions can be effective, although I would guess that it is people with psychosocial stressors that would benefit most.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 7:03:29
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by Phillipa on September 5, 2010, at 21:13:01
> Late response I don't take a mood stabalizer. And does anxiety classified as psychology or biological since family history of it. Phillipa
It is a bit more complex than that, but familial histories of a particular mental illness does raise the risk that one will contract it. Even if the environmental stress is exactly the same for two monozygotic twins brought up together, one may have anxiety while the other does not.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 7:16:24
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » ed_uk2010, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 23:01:03
> Ed,
>
> I see that scenerio as well. I always think the 2 are intertwined-not one vs the other...not either or...i think it's always some component of both. thats just my opinion but i like that you brought up that scenerio as no one else did.Actually, this is either-or thinking. You suggest that there is no such thing as an entirely biological mental illness. I believe that at least three scenarios can manifest.
1. 100% biological
2. 100% psychological
3. 100% interactiveI don't understand why you would want to limit yourself to scenario number 3. Is there scientific evidence to exclude 1 and 2?
Why is it that such a high proportion of females experience menstrual cyclic mood shifts beyond their control? What's that all about?
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2010, at 7:58:07
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 7:16:24
I agree, Scott. In fact, my belief is that only in extreme cases does the second scenario apply completely. In my opinion, without a predisposition to make a person vulnerable, environmental stressors outside the extreme are unlikely to cause severe mental illness.
It reminds me of the old refrigerator mom theory of autism, largely superceded by a view that it is a biological illness, with parents possibly showing mild versions of the same disorder. It made perfect sense at the time, but later research showed that perhaps cause and effect were confused.
Without a genetic predisposition to anxiety disorders, my upbringing may have been odd but not particularly damaging. In my mother's family, two of her siblings had recurring psychotic breaks. They were the two siblings who had abusive husbands. Perhaps they would have never developed psychosis without the abuse, but certainly other women are abused and do not become psychotic. And I strongly suspect that if my mother were similarly stressed, she also would have been pushed into severe mental illness.
To be clear, I do think there are traumas severe enough to cause, on their own, mental illness.
But I mainly think that most disorders, including personality disorders, have strong biological underpinnings.
It's mainly a helpful distinction for the purposes of treatment, though. However an arm gets broken, it still impairs function.
Posted by olivia12 on September 6, 2010, at 14:38:56
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » SLS, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2010, at 7:58:07
Hello all. I just started a link in "Social" with the title "my story". I thought it would be nice to hear about how we all ended up on this site. What do you think?
Posted by violette on September 6, 2010, at 15:03:23
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 6:55:05
"Actually, I was hoping that you would give me that answer. If more than 50 people have less than ideal environments, why is it that only 10 people will suffer from major depressive disorder? What are the differences between these people?"
Imo, I think it has to do whether or not one developed a secure vs insecure attachment to the mother as an infant. I posted a study about attachment in the psycho forum...not that it is a key study or anything (but it's detailed); people's maladaptive traits later in life are strongly correlated with infant attachment..also, the child's attachment style can be accurately predicted, not 100 percent of course) by the attachment style of the parent.
I think if you have a healthy/secure infant attachment-to use this as an example-you might be one of the holocaust survivors who did not live life in a state of mental illness....
Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 6, 2010, at 15:05:02
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 7:16:24
>Why is it that such a high proportion of females experience menstrual cyclic mood shifts beyond their control? What's that all about?
In most cases of psychiatric illness, I don't think it's possible to separate biology from psychology - if indeed such as distinction actually exists. After all, all psychological experiences are dependent on biology. The brain is entirely biological - so I guess you could say that all experiences are 100% biological!
Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 6, 2010, at 15:09:39
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » ed_uk2010, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 23:01:03
>I always think the 2 are intertwined-not one vs the other.....
I think biology affects psychology..........and psychology affects biology.
In Scott's example of PMS, the biological/hormonal changes produce psychological effects. Could the resulting psychological symptoms then lead to further biological effects?
Posted by olivia12 on September 6, 2010, at 15:39:29
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 6, 2010, at 15:09:39
This discussion is a moot point. If the experts have not been able to figure it out and no one has been able to understand how meds/neurotrasmitters really work, why not just call it a day and move on? Is just IMO.
Posted by olivia12 on September 6, 2010, at 16:49:01
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 6, 2010, at 0:46:59
Yes, you are very well read and might want to consider sharing what you know and have been through in a profession.
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 18:35:34
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 6, 2010, at 15:09:39
> >I always think the 2 are intertwined-not one vs the other.....
>
> I think biology affects psychology..........and psychology affects biology.
>
> In Scott's example of PMS, the biological/hormonal changes produce psychological effects. Could the resulting psychological symptoms then lead to further biological effects?
Unfortunately, MDD is a self-reinforcing illness."The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain."
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 18:42:27
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by olivia12 on September 6, 2010, at 15:39:29
> and no one has been able to understand how meds/neurotrasmitters really work, why not just call it a day and move on? Is just IMO.
I would say that it will be impossible to move on without continuing to search for and finding understanding. With sufficient understanding, perhaps fewer people would remain disabled by mental illness.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 18:58:58
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » SLS, posted by violette on September 6, 2010, at 15:03:23
> > "Actually, I was hoping that you would give me that answer. If more than 50 people have less than ideal environments, why is it that only 10 people will suffer from major depressive disorder? What are the differences between these people?"
> Imo, I think it has to do whether or not one developed a secure vs insecure attachment to the mother as an infant.I think you have missed my point. Perhaps I have missed yours. My point is that there is not a 1:1 relationship between bad environments and bad outcomes.
What percentage of people would you say develop an insecure attachment to the mother as an infant? What percentage of these people go on to develop MDD? What percentage of people with MDD had an insecure attachment? I don't have the answers to these questions, but I think they are important to ask.
- Scott
Posted by emmanuel98 on September 6, 2010, at 19:55:35
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 18:58:58
I'm on the fence here. I had a terrible childhood/adolescence and had mood disorders all my life -- mostly severe mood swings lasting hours or days. But it wasn't until I was 50 that I experienced severe depression -- virtually comatose, sucidal, unable to do simple things like shower or wash the dishes for two months until I went into a hospital and was started on parnate. This I think was biological. Maybe my background made me more sucseptible and gave the depression themes and forms, but I truly feel like it was out of my physical control and that physical activities I had used to deal with moodiness had no effect at all on this depression. I think there's a biochemical piece to severe mood disorders which is independent of psychological histories.
This is similar, imho, to drug and alcohol addiction. For me, drug and alcohol addiction were very much associated with loneliness and emotional distress. But in AA, I have met people who have had perfect childhoods and loving parents who nevertheless became out of control addicts and alcoholics.
Posted by Phillipa on September 6, 2010, at 20:11:50
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 6:55:05
Scott my Mother had psoriasis which covered her whole body except hands and soles of feet. She spent her time in a bathtub to soak off the scales which covered our house. Psoriasis in considered and autoimmune disease and in turn caused rheumatoid arthritis also an autoimmune disease. Anyway since whole family anxiety I wonder if mental disorders could be autoimmune linked? As I and other family members also have thyroid disorder Hasimotos autoimmune, And diabetes autoimmune and in the family genes? Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on September 6, 2010, at 20:15:07
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 21:43:05
First guilt caused first panic attack then hasimotos thyroiditis took over. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on September 6, 2010, at 20:18:50
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 7:16:24
Scott I never did but shifts in hormones. Phillipa
Posted by violette on September 6, 2010, at 20:53:44
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 18:58:58
Hi SLS,
They are important questions to ask...unfortunately, as you know, research cannot match reality and some concepts are more difficult to research than others...there are plenty of parents out there who 'seem' like good parents but the overprotection and intrusivness cause avoidant-like personalities (social anxiety) which then leads to major depression.
Then there are those who think they have no psychological problems or have never sought mental health treatment yet hurt those around them in a life of bitterness and denial. How do you find absolute connections if you cannot 'reach' those types of parents? Then there are those who had poor parenting, but perhaps had a mentor-like a grandparent with whom they were able to develop a healthy relationship...
I'm sure you could think of dozens of other scenerios why it can't be proven.
http://www.heartcenteredtherapies.org/go/docs/Journal%205-1%20Attachment.pdf
There's some percentages in the article above. No one really knows, but attachment theory might be the best we have.
But I think it is possible that you could get closer to becoming well again one day if you ask yourself different questions:
Why place so much importance in rationalizing that some MI can be purely biological?
Why devote much time and energy to finding and defending any and every angle of this possibility?
When I find myself in some sort of pattern, like obsessing about psychology, it helps to explore the reasons behind it....
Posted by olivia12 on September 6, 2010, at 23:37:30
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » olivia12, posted by SLS on September 6, 2010, at 18:42:27
> I would say that it will be impossible to move on without continuing to search for and finding understanding. With sufficient understanding, perhaps fewer people would remain disabled by mental illness.
>
>
> - ScottYes, I see your point, but isn't this one of those arguments that loops around itself? Like trying to decide which came 1st--the chicken or the egg or arguing that life begins at conception? I personally think it is a complex mix of genes/predisposition, as well as an environment ripe for mental illness. I think I tend to lean more on the side of biology though, as do most of these posts. I suppose we may never know...I did enjoy reading the different perspectives though.
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