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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 5:13:34
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 4, 2010, at 21:51:27
> > "However, major depressive disorder and bipolar disorder are very real biological illnesses, even though they are often inappropriately referred to as "mood" illnesses." - SLS
> Just wondering-what difference does it make if one's illness is 'biological' or 'psychological'?Treatment choice, perhaps?
> I am curious as I have never seen any research conclusive enough to draw an actual line as to what components of an illness are either/or
I have seen research that I feel is conclusive. In addition, the careful study of one patient convinces me.
Morphological and electrical activity changes in the brain along with neuroendocrine and autonomic abnormalities occur in MDD and BD. It is more than simply a change in mood.
> Mental illness is mental illness-the suffering seems the same to me-maybe I am missing something here..
A kick in the butt and falling on your butt feel the same, but the remedies are different.
> Do people with more psychologically-based mental illnes symptoms somehow suffer LESS than those with primarly biological mental illness symptoms?
Who knows? That you make a distinction at all is a step in the right direction.
> Are psychological mental illness symptoms of depression/mood/anxiety somehow 'less real' than 'biological' symptoms of depression/mood/anxiety? You really have me wondering about your rationale here!
I made a statement regarding the phenomenology of MDD and BD. I was not making a comparison to any other illness or condition.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000401/msgs/29296.html
I can't believe its been 10 years already!
- Scott
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 11:37:27
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 5:13:34
"Morphological and electrical activity changes in the brain along with neuroendocrine and autonomic abnormalities occur in MDD and BD. It is more than simply a change in mood."
The same thing occurs with borderline patients, or so the research I've read indicates. It's pretty amazing how childhood emotional development can change how our brains work based upon the temperment we were born with...
I don't want to throw this thread off topic, but at the same time, I wondered why you might have pointed out the difference of 'psychological' depression and 'biological' depression in terms of disability...The treatments provided are the same for both, the symptoms much the same. THis is because they are usually a combination of the 2-not one or the other.
ps my relative on disability has a 'biological' illness-bipolar-on top of a 'psychological' one, and takes mood stabilizing drugs like most everyone here.
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 11:52:41
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 5:13:34
I read that link - nice essay you wrote there.
What makes a considerable difference is that some people are largely ego-syntonic, and might remain that way for a lifetime...Others might have a meltdown before they get out of that state. It's unfortunate.
Posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 12:03:53
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 11:37:27
> I don't want to throw this thread off topic, but at the same time, I wondered why you might have pointed out the difference of 'psychological' depression and 'biological' depression in terms of disability...
MDD and BD are the specific diagnoses that makes one eligible for receiving SSD.
> The treatments provided are the same for both,
Exactly the same? According to whom?
> the symptoms much the same.
Again, that you distinguish between two different conditions is a good thing.
> THis is because they are usually a combination of the 2-not one or the other.
Usually? Maybe. I guess you didn't read my post that I cited from the year 2000.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 12:05:18
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 11:52:41
> I read that link - nice essay you wrote there.
>
> What makes a considerable difference is that some people are largely ego-syntonic, and might remain that way for a lifetime...Others might have a meltdown before they get out of that state. It's unfortunate.What does "ego-syntonic" mean?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 12:20:49
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 12:03:53
> THis is because they are usually a combination of the 2-not one or the other.
>Usually? Maybe. I guess you didn't read my post that I cited from the year 2000.
Scott, I really think that rarely ever and maybe never have mental illness developed solely out of biology. It just makes perfect sense. Just think about the subtle things that take place at very early stages in our development that can have such a profound impact. I've said this before, and I'm sure you remember, I think it would be almost impossible to find someone that has struggled with mental illness that did not also have some notable lack of nurture, abuse, and/or neglect. The same goes for psychopaths/sociopaths. I don't ever want to hear that Jeffrey Dahmer appeared to have a "normal" childhood. All it may have taken to allow for his psychopath predisposition to develop, was a very distant mother that did not show him unconditional love. Maybe he needed a larger family with siblings and a whole lot of love and encouragement. My point is, that if we all get what we need while developing, we likely will not struggle with mental illness to the extent that many of us do.
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 12:28:48
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 12:05:18
> > I read that link - nice essay you wrote there.
> >
> > What makes a considerable difference is that some people are largely ego-syntonic, and might remain that way for a lifetime...Others might have a meltdown before they get out of that state. It's unfortunate.
>
> What does "ego-syntonic" mean?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - ScottThings that are in harmony/in sync with the ego. Egodystonic is the opposite. Egodystonics are often in denial, wiki gives anorexics as an example. I guess we are striving to be egosyntonic.
Vioette, you should go back to school and study psychology.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 5, 2010, at 12:49:05
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 11:37:27
>This is because they are usually a combination of the 2-not one or the other.
I think even if you start off with a biological mental illness, you would end up with some psychological problems. After all, how could one be severely depressed for a prolonged period and not suffer some psychological damage?
Posted by Leo33 on September 5, 2010, at 14:19:02
In reply to Re: disability, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 4, 2010, at 14:37:49
Yea I did, I guess it just hit a nerve, I am more frustrated at the system and society more than anything else. Olivia has a bad situation too, so I feel for her. At least she deserves to be here. So an apology to Olivia if she took offense.
Posted by olivia12 on September 5, 2010, at 15:19:09
In reply to Re: disability, posted by Leo33 on September 5, 2010, at 14:19:02
No, no offense at all--I was the one that went off. I cannot make heads or tails out of the remainder of this thread though. Way too scholarly for me--reads like a textbook at times. Very well-informed consumers--how do you guys know so much? And so, I will just keep reading as it is insightful--thank you:)
Posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 16:22:02
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 12:20:49
> Scott, I really think that rarely ever and maybe never have mental illness developed solely out of biology.
It is difficult to separate the individual from its environment when observing it.
Line up 100 people. How many of them do you think will have an ideal developmental environment?
- Scott
Posted by olivia12 on September 5, 2010, at 16:47:54
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 16:22:02
Environment vs. genetics then? I really do not understand the difference between "psychogical" and "biological/phsiological" in the other posts, but I do get nature vs. nuture...carry on...
Posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 17:05:29
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » morgan miller, posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 16:22:02
> > Scott, I really think that rarely ever and maybe never have mental illness developed solely out of biology.
>
> It is difficult to separate the individual from its environment when observing it.
>
> Line up 100 people. How many of them do you think will have an ideal developmental environment?
>
>
> - Scott
Not many, maybe a few out of 100. I know you didn't really expect me to answer that, you were just making a point. Just thought I'd chime in on what I thought.Sorry Olivia for getting off topic here : )
Posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 17:08:04
In reply to Re: disability, posted by olivia12 on September 5, 2010, at 15:19:09
Olivia, I just wanted to tell you I'm sorry for what you have been through. You are strong and courageous and deserve praise for trudging through the difficult times and working as hard as you have to hold everything together.
Posted by olivia12 on September 5, 2010, at 17:08:40
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 17:05:29
No, no apologies--I am enjoying the read:)
Posted by olivia12 on September 5, 2010, at 17:11:44
In reply to Re: disability » olivia12, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 17:08:04
Oh, you are so very sweet. Yes, they were some hard years, but I have two sweet little gals to remind me that I am blessed. Everything happens for a reason and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change much. Thank you:)
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2010, at 18:25:18
In reply to Re: disability, posted by morgan miller on September 4, 2010, at 22:27:02
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 5, 2010, at 18:27:06
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by SLS on September 5, 2010, at 5:13:34
> I can't believe its been 10 years already!
Pretty amazing! Thanks for contributing for so long. :-)
Bob
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 19:45:59
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by olivia12 on September 5, 2010, at 16:47:54
Olivia-Well I'm glad that someone is enjoying the discussion. Olive, i personally think there's little difference. It's interesting to me to hear others views about this.
Anyone who I ever spoke to with borderline-so called psychological illness-takes similar medications as those with biological illnesses. My family member on disability gets treated for bipolar-with lithium-but has an attachment issue like me-but never diagnosed or treated for it and is totally unaware of it. Partly due to fact there is no 'self injury' involved...
Not referring to n=1, there's alot of people out there oblivious to their psychological problems because their defense mechanisms are so thick...it's estimated by studies that up to 50% of the mental health population have concurrent PDs! That doesn't include those with merely maladaptive/PD traits...Don't take my word for it-the information is all out there...and my Pdoc, whose treated 100s, if not 1000 of patients, would be the first to agree despite my lack of psyche education.
p.s. thanks for the definition Morgan, I got the 2 mixed up, no need to go to school as there is always Wiki to refer to when in doubt :)
Posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 20:41:56
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 19:45:59
> Olivia-Well I'm glad that someone is enjoying the discussion. Olive, i personally think there's little difference. It's interesting to me to hear others views about this.
>
> Anyone who I ever spoke to with borderline-so called psychological illness-takes similar medications as those with biological illnesses. My family member on disability gets treated for bipolar-with lithium-but has an attachment issue like me-but never diagnosed or treated for it and is totally unaware of it. Partly due to fact there is no 'self injury' involved...
>
> Not referring to n=1, there's alot of people out there oblivious to their psychological problems because their defense mechanisms are so thick...it's estimated by studies that up to 50% of the mental health population have concurrent PDs! That doesn't include those with merely maladaptive/PD traits...Don't take my word for it-the information is all out there...and my Pdoc, whose treated 100s, if not 1000 of patients, would be the first to agree despite my lack of psyche education.
>
> p.s. thanks for the definition Morgan, I got the 2 mixed up, no need to go to school as there is always Wiki to refer to when in doubt :)Violette, the reason why I said you should study psychology was because you seem to be very bright, you have a good grasp on psychological concepts, and have an obvious interest in psychology. Just wanted to make that clear : )
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 20:43:05
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 19:45:59
Maybe you could do some good in the field of psychology or social work. Just a suggestion. You may be perfectly happy with your current career path, I don't know.
Posted by Phillipa on September 5, 2010, at 21:13:01
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 20:43:05
Late response I don't take a mood stabalizer. And does anxiety classified as psychology or biological since family history of it. Phillipa
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 21:27:45
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by morgan miller on September 5, 2010, at 20:43:05
Olivia-I called you Olive! Sorry! I guess you are like the olive in the martini glass of this thread now..but since you gave us the ok to 'carry on'....
Thanks Morgan, I wasn't sure if you were having a bad day or something :(
I might do advocacy work someday...or start doing volunteer work for a non-profit once i get back to full functioning. I thought about going back to school for psychology as well but can't while in psychoanalytic therapy, among other things...
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 21:43:05
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS, posted by Phillipa on September 5, 2010, at 21:13:01
Philippa, unsure if anyone can classify it unless there is a medical condition...it 'runs in my family' too....
Glen Gabbard's "Psychodynamic Psychiatry in Clinical Practice" includes case examples of people with GAD...and other cases I've seen seem to always trace anxiety back to unconcious psychological conflict.
http://www.amazon.com/Psychodynamic-Psychiatry-Clinical-Practice-4th/dp/1585621854
You can obviously get similar symptoms from blood sugar and other medical problems...
I think people with a certain temperments-those who are more introverted or less angry/aggressive-or those who were not allowed to express anger in any way while growing up-tend to develop anxiety more than those with other temperments who sometimes develop more bipolar like tendencies...from what i've read, it's often an unconscious conflict about anger, but can involve other emotions.
I used to have GAD for 2 decades (and other types of anxiety), but now in therapy, have had weekly panic attacks that fluctuate around emotional conflicts we work through.
Now that i am conscious of the conflicts after my T dismantled some defense mechanisms, they occur even during session now. They get extreme, then dissipate when I leave. I don't even know if my therapist is comfortable with seeing me suffer like that, as i don't want to take meds for session to experience the full range of emotions-but I am getting so much better in other domains it is worth every bit of suffering and i'm confident the anxiety will lessen and eventually go into remission unless some traumatic life event brings it back to the surface at a later time.
Posted by violette on September 5, 2010, at 23:01:03
In reply to Re: disability - Proudfoot - SLS » violette, posted by ed_uk2010 on September 5, 2010, at 12:49:05
Ed,
I see that scenerio as well. I always think the 2 are intertwined-not one vs the other...not either or...i think it's always some component of both. thats just my opinion but i like that you brought up that scenerio as no one else did.
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