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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 20:15:08
>If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
If you a predisposed to schizophrenia you might (like me) be the kind of person who smoked it out of a desire to change subjective reality regardless of outcome.
So it's illegal in order to protect us.
If you are predisposed to schizophrenia, you might feel alienated from society and want to try it just because it is illegal.
Posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 22:12:52
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
> >If you are genetically predisposed or possibly genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, why risk it?
>
> If you a predisposed to schizophrenia you might (like me) be the kind of person who smoked it out of a desire to change subjective reality regardless of outcome.
>
> So it's illegal in order to protect us.
>
> If you are predisposed to schizophrenia, you might feel alienated from society and want to try it just because it is illegal.I totally understand why people genetically predisposed to schizophrenia smoke weed, I was just making a point to Linkage that it would be in the best interest of the genetically predisposed to stay away from regardless of the way it made them feel.
I believe one of the reasons why people genetically predisposed to schizophrenia try drugs like marijuana at a young age is because they were neglected or abused and are looking for an escape. This neglect or abuse or both are also likely to have contributed to the development of the illness for many.
I see no reason to keep marijuana illegal. There will be NO change in availability of the drug once it is legalized. I have Never heard of anyone having a difficult time buying marijuana and getting their hands on it. The fact that it is illegal makes almost NO impact on availability and ease of obtainment. Marijuana is everywhere and law enforcement has better things to do that chase those that sell and use a drug that is more benign than alcohol.
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:28:27
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:03:10
> There is simply no conclusive evidence that marijuanna actually causes schizophrenia.
Sorry, but I didn't say that. I indicated that it will accelerate its development. Whether or not it actually precipitates psychosis has also been demonstrated.
A simple Google search will reveal a plethora of literature indicating that there are associations between the earlier onset of schizophrenia and the precipitation of psychotic reactions.
I think that marijuana deserves more research before it is deemed safe and effective for treating depression or anxiety disorders. THC and dronabinol may be more of a culprit as psychotomimetics than the other cannibinoids marijuana contains.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 5:38:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 17, 2010, at 20:09:50
> The substance cannabidol (or was it cannabinol) actually has potent *antipsychotic* effects.
Was this the Schwarcz study n=6?
- Scott
Posted by europerep on August 18, 2010, at 15:28:58
In reply to Re: MJ never reved me up, posted by morgan miller on August 16, 2010, at 22:32:01
> Yeah it is not normal to get a hyperactive reaction to marijuana. I get hyperactive and hyperverbal on marijuana, at least I used to. I think this reaction IS paradoxical.
>
>
no man, seriously :)
the eating thing is what you guys call "the munchies", it's the most common effect of all actually (link was refering to it).. hyperverbal, that's a good way to express it, is a totally regular reaction to good weed.. of course, it is dosage-related, and it depens on the quality.. if you have good MJ and you only get stoned in the sense of "not wanting to move", you either smoked too much, or it is a heavy indica strain.. but there are sativa strains who are totally uplifting.. everyhting that's "haze" is usually uplifting, for example.. hence all the musicians who just love to compose and create on silver haze.. also, it is important that marijuana does not equal cannabis product. everything that's tinctures, for example, is usually hash-based and has a much higher thc content, and is therefore much more heavy on you.. but talking a lot is absolutely definitely not a paradoxical reaction.. it's an effect especially often observed in beginners, but for me it used to be my favorite effect throughout all the time I smoked..
Posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 20:39:25
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 17, 2010, at 18:06:08
That's a good question. I guess no one really knows but I can tell you what I think
Heavy use could precipitate a mild schizophrenic-like experience. Oversmoking at any time can cause a similar paranoia, seeing thngs that aren't there, hearing things. It isn't really schizo though it feels like it and looks it, it is just plain too stoned. Shouldn't have smoked that much.
In longterm chronic use, I think the Indica strains have a very low likelihood of causing schizo-like problems. The Sativas are much more risky.
I have never actually heard of, seen, or read about documented schizo from mj. Personally I feel the benefits of mj greatly outweigh any risks. That is, if it is used responsibly. Medical purposes only require very small doses. If someone is smoking a lot more than they should, then yeah something might get weird.
> Where do you place the importance of the psychomimetic effects of marijuana and its potential to precipitate schizophrenia earlier in life? Of course, very few psychotropics are without untoward effects. However, I am curious how you weigh them against the potential benefits.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 21:03:15
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by sigismund on August 17, 2010, at 20:36:38
Quote from one of the earlier posts:
"So it's illegal in order to protect us."
If that were true, then why are not cigarettes illegal? That's a leading cause of multiple diseases and death. Pot never killed anyone or gave them a disease. Well, I mean, I am sure someone somewhere has been injured by longterm chronic smoking, but really, no contest when compared to tobacco.
Same with alcohol. No contest. Drunk drivers kill all the time, mj drivers hardly ever.
We know alcohol and cigarettes cause serious problems and death on a wide scale. But they remain legal and widely accepted as ok. We have not even a small fraction of evidence pointing to mj having that kind of destructive power. On the contrary, what evidence we do have points to it as having healing power.
So the reason it is illegal has nothing to do with protecting us.
Several states now have made it legal with a prescription. Punishments in some states have been lowered to not much more than a traffic ticket for possession or cultivation of small personal amounts.
Some countries view it as so illegal that the punishment might be life in jail or execution. Other countries allow full cultivation, genetic modification, and buying it to smoke in your local coffee shop.
The story of why it is illegal is pretty interesting. Several variables involved with that. But none of them have anything to do with protecting our health.
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 21:09:33
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » SLS, posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 20:39:25
> In longterm chronic use, I think the Indica strains have a very low likelihood of causing schizo-like problems. The Sativas are much more risky.
How are the two strains different?
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 21:35:04
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » SLS, posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 20:39:25
>I have never actually heard of, seen, or read about documented schizo from mj.
Posted by sigismund on August 18, 2010, at 22:07:51
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by bleauberry on August 18, 2010, at 21:03:15
>If that were true, then why are not cigarettes illegal?
They only deem it necessary to protect us from some things rather than others?
There are heaps of damaging things that are legal, but not so many when it comes to anything remotely psychoactive, especially if it's not straight up and down and it looks like someone might be enjoying it.
Posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:36:16
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by SLS on August 18, 2010, at 21:09:33
> > In longterm chronic use, I think the Indica strains have a very low likelihood of causing schizo-like problems. The Sativas are much more risky.
>
> How are the two strains different?
>
>
> - ScottIndicas are benzo-like, Sativas are stimulant-like.
Most strains are hybrid blends of varying percentages.
Posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:44:30
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 21:35:04
Thanks for sharing the posts on the studies.
I found the following line particularly interesting:
" It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use (by a factor of four)."
Four times worse? Wow. But it's legal. Ok.
I think it is easy to accidentally get distracted off the subject in studies like those.
On one hand we are talking about medicinal use of mJ which is a completely different ballgame than teenage chronic abuse of mj. The abusers are smoking a bunch of it when they don't need it, abusing it.
The patients are smoking small controlled doses for specific benefits, getting high not being one of them.
The studies only looked at the abusers, not patients. The smoking habits of each of those two groups are completely different.
Posted by morgan miller on August 19, 2010, at 22:30:01
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » morgan miller, posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:44:30
>I found the following line particularly interesting:
>" It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use (by a factor of four)."
>Four times worse? Wow. But it's legal. Ok.
Ha ha, yeah alcohol is bad news, much worse that MJ in many ways. I have to admit though that alcohol is still my preferred drug of choice.
>On one hand we are talking about medicinal use of mJ which is a completely different ballgame than teenage chronic abuse of mj. The abusers are smoking a bunch of it when they don't need it, abusing it.
Yep..Also, while the brain is still developing at such young ages, drug abuse is more likely to have a greater negative impact.
Posted by Zyprexa on August 19, 2010, at 23:35:05
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 18, 2010, at 21:35:04
After reading that.. I think that mj made me schizo. My first couple of times smoking mj, were very psychotic and incapasitating. My first time I lay on a bed unable to get up for several hours (2 maybe), second time I smoked and hit the floor right after smoking. When I finaly got up, my thinking was realy messed up and I didn't see life in a way that made sense, almost like a dream. Anouther time after that I would smoke and pass out. This has happened a lot, where I could not function and would be incapasitated for some time. On the other hand there were many times I could function just fine after a smoke, usualy when I was use to it. I smoked pretty much non stop for a bunch of years when I felt fine on it. Maybe it was different strains or lacing. But ya I think I was psychotic on mj for a number of years at times. I have heard that my diagnosis was mj depression. And thinking back in time I think mj may have made me psychotic at times.
I will say that alcohol never did any of this to me. Usualy (right from the beginning) alcohol was always a lift in mood and never have I heard any voicis more on alcohol more than sober.
Posted by Zyprexa on August 19, 2010, at 23:48:05
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » morgan miller, posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2010, at 18:44:30
I will say I always did better with small doses.
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:29:08
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 17, 2010, at 20:15:08
>Many things are not conclusive, but there is >evidence. If you are genetically predisposed or >possibly genetically predisposed to >schizophrenia, why risk it?
Pretty much all there is are correlational studies. Schizophrenia is also "correlated" with high tobacco use, for instance. For a while they were suggesting that the tobacco exaserbated (or even caused) schizophrenia in "succeptable" people.
On the contrary they are finding mechanisms by which nicotine improves schizophrenic symptoms. It increases gaba levels in the schizophrenic brain and also appears to improve cognition and anxiety levels. Newer studies suggest that schizophrenics who smoke tobacco have a better long term prognosis than those who don't.
It all depends on how the study is conducted and what the researchers are trying to prove.
Newer researchers have tried to look for mechanisms by which marijaunna might actually be used theraputically for schizophrenia.
It has been known for a while that there is high overlap of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. Many of the medications used for either illness are interchangeable. Some cases of schizophrenia are often misdiagnosed as bipolar. There are many bipolar patients who claim that marijuanna acts as a mood stabilizer for them - calming both the highs and the lows. By the same tolken, it could have theraputic utility in schizophrenia.
Some researchers have found greatly diminished levels of anandamide in the schizophrenic brain. They propose that schizophrenics smoke to replace the cannabanoid receptor activation that would be given by the missing anandamide.
Of course, if you don't need to smoke it..don't. But, if for some reason it works for you, I wouldn't be thrown off by a unproven potential ill effect.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:47:15
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » bleauberry, posted by Zyprexa on August 19, 2010, at 23:48:05
Correlation does not imply causation. That an individual was diagnosed with schizophrenia after marijuanna use does not prove that marijuanna caused the schizophrenia.
I smoked something once that made me feel very "off". I later learned that it was MJ laced with ketamine. I never had the same experience before or since.
Thats the problem with stuff on the street. You get all these case reports that are essentially meaningless because the same agent is not being tested.
Also, short term drug effects don't correlate with the symptoms of a disease. Enough amphetamine can cause mania in just about anyone.
If somebody has a manic episode on amphetamine, does it mean they have bipolar disorder? If a bipolar individual has their first manic episode on amphetamine, does it mean that the amphetamine caused bipolar?
Antidepressants have been linked to earlier onset of bipolar disorder in those with genetic susceptability to bipolar. That being said, we don't ban the use of antidepressnts for this reason.
I remember reading how, schizophrenics tend to use MJ in a very particular dose range. One that increases prefrontal dopaminergic neurotransmission without significantly affecting limbic dopamine neurotransmission. I.e. to reduce negative symptoms, not to get high.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on August 20, 2010, at 15:39:24
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:47:15
Hey Link, I think the primary concern over marijuana and schizophrenia is the abuse of marijuana by young teens increasing the chance of developing the illness. I don't think we can deny the fact that marijuana abuse or any drug abuse during early adolescence may carry the risk of damaging the brain and disrupting it's development in a way that increases the chance of developing any type of mental illness. A developing brain is especially susceptible to the effect of mind altering substances.
Posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2010, at 19:34:43
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:29:08
Link when working in psych smoking was pretty much necessary for scizophrenics my favorite patients. But they were talking the docs that is that the tobacco increased dopamine levels? Any truth or was it disproved? Phillipa
Posted by Zyprexa on August 20, 2010, at 22:40:14
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2010, at 19:34:43
Its true Phillipa, smoking releases dopamine. Also I've read that nicotine is theraputic to schitzophrenics. Does not have to be tobaco.
Posted by linkadge on August 21, 2010, at 10:16:01
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by morgan miller on August 20, 2010, at 15:39:24
I agree with you that marijuanna use in teens is cause for concern.
But, why are teens using MJ in the first place? Some are using it for depression and or anxiety.
If marijuanna use was to abruptly be terminated, there would arguably be more teens on psychiatric medications. Some would suggest this is a better route, but is it really?
One argument against the use of MJ in teens is that it causes amotivational syndrome. But, are SSRIs any better in this regard?
At least on MJ I could sleep. Apathy plus insomnia is worse than pure apathy. Besides, MJ apathy was more tollerable than paxil apathy. MJ didn't give me akathesia, make me want to slash my wrists, or ram an icepick through my skull.
**How about developing treatments for depression, anxiety and schizophrenia that actually work well in teens**, and then start telling teens to stop their MJ crutch.
Linkadge
Posted by violette on August 21, 2010, at 11:13:43
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:29:08
Linkadge-
Thanks for your posts in this thread...very informative.
"**How about developing treatments for depression, anxiety and schizophrenia that actually work well in teens**, and then start telling teens to stop their MJ crutch."
That's how I feel too. (BTW-I hate MJ as it made me anxious when I tried it).
"On the contrary they are finding mechanisms by which nicotine improves schizophrenic symptoms. It increases gaba levels in the schizophrenic brain and also appears to improve cognition and anxiety levels."
I recently read approximately 90% (maybe from one study in the past?) of schizophrenics smoke cigarettes.
Can you please tell me if there are other ways of 'increasing' gaba levels in the brain (aside from meds and nicotine)? I think I have some of the schizo genes and would like to experiment with anything, if available, other than those 2 substances. Thanks. :)
Posted by islan on August 21, 2010, at 18:11:07
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety, posted by linkadge on August 20, 2010, at 8:29:08
>> "There are many bipolar patients who claim that marijuanna acts as a mood stabilizer for them - calming both the highs and the lows."
Yep, check out this link:
http://www.ukcia.org/research/TheUseofCannabisasaMoodStabilizerinBipolarDisorder.phpI have been using cannabis regularly for four years. I find it helps me tame my angry and irritable moods, and also to pull me out of apathy and despair so that I can smile and feel grateful. It helps stop my mind from racing and generally helps me feel cheerful. I worry that in the long term it may be contributing to my anxiety (only because people say it makes users paranoid, not because of any personal experiences), but in the short term, it's often what gets me through the day, helps me stop crying, and lets me relax.
Posted by morgan miller on August 21, 2010, at 18:18:52
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » morgan miller, posted by linkadge on August 21, 2010, at 10:16:01
>But, why are teens using MJ in the first place? Some are using it for depression and or anxiety.
I think this is where we need a revolution in parenting and mental health to take place. The only way that is going to happen is for people to have an awareness of how their parents and childhood had a lasting effect on them, then take whatever measures necessary to nurture themselves closer to where they would have been if they had most of what they needed growing up(therapy, constant self refection and introspection, parenting clasees, yes, parenting classes). I know, easier said than done.
>If marijuanna use was to abruptly be terminated, there would arguably be more teens on psychiatric medications. Some would suggest this is a better route, but is it really?
I do not like the idea of giving teens and especially pre-teen children psychiatric medications. I believe the too carry the risk of interfering with healthy brain development. Like I mentioned above, we need to start focusing on the reasons why children are using drugs like marijuana and try to work on resolving that issue. I compare it to the war on drugs, we spend so much time trying to fight the people selling drugs instead of educating the masses on why people are using drugs(and it is NOT just because they are genetically predisposed to addiction, it never is, I'm afraid things just aren't that simple) and try to come up with ways to empower people with solutions on getting better. Of course these long term solutions would require actually dealing with some fairly uncomfortable issues and take a whole lot of effort and time. Usually the real solution is the one that is most difficult and takes the most time.
>One argument against the use of MJ in teens is that it causes amotivational syndrome. But, are SSRIs any better in this regard?
My personal experience with SSRIs has not been one of feeling less motivated, but I have seen so many people do worse in school and lose motivation to do productive healthy things when using marijuana. The problem with teens is they are not likely to control the use of marijuana to a point where it would be therapeutic and not destructive.
>**How about developing treatments for depression, anxiety and schizophrenia that actually work well in teens**, and then start telling teens to stop their MJ crutch.
Yes! And the rest of us grown adults will want those treatments too! Hopefully sooner than later medications will be developed that are not as invasive and may actually be good for our brains.
Linkage
Posted by morgan miller on August 21, 2010, at 18:58:17
In reply to Re: Marijuana as a Medication in Depress and Anxiety » linkadge, posted by violette on August 21, 2010, at 11:13:43
I also still believe it is possible that MJ use/abuse may make teens and others feel better for a while, but worsen conditions of depression later, especially when coming off MJ. And, MJ feels, at least to me(and I know to friends that used it a lot in the past) too much like an escape from reality. SSRIs gave me a bit of this feeling, but nothing like MJ.
> Can you please tell me if there are other ways of 'increasing' gaba levels in the brain (aside from meds and nicotine)? I think I have some of the schizo genes and would like to experiment with anything, if available, other than those 2 substances. Thanks. :)
Would you be willing to try a nicotine patch? Or, are you trying to avoid nicotine all together?
There are several natural substances that come to mind with regards to boosting GABA levels:Magnesium-glycinate or taurinate-improves function of several neurotransmitters, including GABA
Taurine-inhibitory neurotransmitter amino acid
GABA-gamma-aminobutyric acid-inhibitory neurotransmitter
L Glutamine-inhibitory neurotransmitter-precursor to GABA
Ashwagandha-adaptogen-adaptogen-strong antioxidant power-may improve thyroid functionGlycine-inhibitory neurotransmitter-does not necessarily boost GABA but does have a calming effect and has been found to possibly be effective in treating symptoms of schizophrenia-protects against glutamate exitotoxicity through inhibiting NMDA receptors-I think?!
Most inhibitory neurotransmitter amino acids need to be taken with B6(p5p may be the best form) to improve absorption/metabolism.
Morgan
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