![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 51 to 75 of 88. Go back in thread:
Posted by Justherself54 on June 20, 2010, at 15:05:40
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » bobman, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 14:43:11
Can you or someone explain to me why this thread has been allowed to remain on the medication board? This board is supposed to be for support and education.
I do not feel supported nor educated by this thread. If I wanted to explore a different approach for my mood disorder, through spirituality, I would go to the faith board.
The same goes for the biological vs. whatever. At this point, I don't care where my illness stems from..I have it..it is real. I just want to talk to others on the medication board who identify with me.
Jeez Louise, this is all kinds of crazymaking! Bulldog is so mad he's going to accept a block. I don't want to see any babbler get blocked. Perhaps if this thread has been put where it belonged, on the social board, it wouldn't have escalated to the point where blocks are going to be handed out.
Frick sakes Dr. Bob. I hold you partly responsible for letting this get out of hand in the first place.
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 15:12:11
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » bobman, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 14:43:11
> There are all sorts of empirical psychological tests for mental illness; some progress has also been made in determining which regions of the brain are affected, but something does not have to be "biological" to be real. And surely the biological affects our states of mind. Just drink a cup of coffee.
>
> But, Bobman, if you don't believe there is a biological basis for mental illness, why take all those herbs and supplements -- aren't you trying to influence the biological system of your body by doing so?
>
> And I do think the cancer analogy is at least a little helpful: the remission rates for some of the worst cancers are not much better than the statistics on remission of mental illness cited by people like Whitaker and other anti-psych folks.It's a good point, why do I take them. Well I'm a great believer in the side effects that anti-epileptic medications have. Namely brain cell death. Non-enzymatic anticonvulsants are shown to inhibit glial proliferation, and lamotrigine is shown to greatly inhibit LTP, NMDAR signaling in response to excitation, and therefore should lead to reduced neuronal plasticity and neuronal atrophy as well.
It's not that I don't believe that biology plays a role, but rather that whatever role it plays is not being targeted by current pharmacological treatments. And how could they target it? These biological role in mental illness has not been elucidated, and the mechanisms by which most medications work has also not been fully elucidated.
For instance, did you know that fluoxetine increases levels of IGF-1? It is currently proposed that it increases neurogenesis by this method, and not by any increase in post-synaptic serotonin, which would make sense IGF-1 increases proliferation of many types of tissue.
The herbs that I take are shown to increase proliferation of neural stem cells, increase outgrowth of newborn neurons, and all of this is actually shown in vivo in rodents, with corresponding observational effects shown in humans, although the latter is not well funded.
For instance, I have a full assay of the genes that Gotu Kola up-regulates expression of.
FGF2, VEGF, EGF, TGF-B1 and a few other growth related genes are up-regulated between 1.6 and 1.7 times * control. That's probably why it works to dramatically enhance wound healing, but those factors also affect recovery from brain injury (shown through separate studies on ischemia), and should therefore improve recovery from insult by pharmacological drugs. There is similar research for curcumin and ashwagandha. Essentially reasons like these are why I take gotu kola, and curcumin.
As a side note, my body feels far healthier since starting to take them. I haven't changed anything else in life besides the addition of gotu kola and turmeric. I have more endurance, and far less fatigue. Of course any skeptic can attribute these results to some sort of somatiform or placebo, and I wouldn't be able to convince you of it besides to say that they absolutely work for me. I've used them long term, and will tell anyone who cares to listen that they work about as well as any pharmacological agent I've tried, but with a clean, non-toxic profile. Don't want to believe that it works? I'm fine with that.
Posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 19:22:12
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
> I have a question for the anti-med folks here & I ask it in all sincerity because I would like to know & I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I asked this on the social board, but nobody responded, so maybe no one is interested, but I'll try again here, since it is a question about medication.
>
> If you were diagnosed with lung or colon cancer & your oncologist told you that without treatment you had maybe a year to live, would you be willing to undergo chemotherapy, knowing, as your doctor would surely tell you, that the various drug "cocktails" used are toxic to your immune system and might not work or might leave you with permanent physical and mental deficits? And also knowing that the various combinations of drugs are often used in a trial and error manner to see which patient responds to which combination?
>
> I ask this, obviously, because I see an analogy between cancer drugs and psych drugs -- some are destructive for some people, some don't work, when used in combinations there is little clear clinical evidence on which to design the cocktail, etc. Still, using chemo & using psych drugs leads to remission in some patients.Hi Chujoe you raise a good point.
Lets just keep using cancer as the analogy.
I have been experiencing symptoms of a disease.
A doctor has diagnosed me with Cancer and given me some serious medications to treat my illness.10 years later after suffering terrible side effects from the medications for my cancer, I discover that my doctor was pretty much guessing about my cancer and that there is no evidence that I even have cancer apart from my own symptoms.
What is more, is that the medication they have been giving me seems to be causing troubles and maybe even making the cancer worse. At this stage I attempt to stop the medications only to discover that after 10 years of there use, they have so altered my brain structure that quitting them is next to impossible. I was never warned about this.
Is it possible that for those who had this cancer would have followed a much better path to recovery if the drugs wern't introduced.
The answer is yes and no. Some people I truly believe have had their lives ruined by psychiatry. Others that perhaps may have commited suicide without some sort of medication and here I guess you can say it's use is justified.
But how many have commited suicide because of psychiatry?I know that I have gotten myself into very agiatated states from psych meds.
If the meds are truly improving your quality of life then I think it is justified.
I know people exist in a state of med induced bliss. But I think they are few and far between (just going of ancedotal evidence here)
Most people seem to be endlessly searching for the cure, and when they find it, it only lasts a short period of time and they are back to the drawing board.Meds have worked for me, temporarily and each time I have slid back to my equilibrium. My brain seems to be able to compensate for the changes that the meds make.
So I am left with the side effects.
I hope that this helps you understand where I am from coming from a little bit.
Posted by SLS on June 20, 2010, at 19:59:31
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 19:22:12
> I hope that this helps you understand where I am from coming from a little bit.
I appreciate your motivations. I sincerely hope that you find a space that pleases you. If you can do that without exposing yourself to foreign substances, that would be a true blessing. It is also a blessing, though, that medical science endeavors to provide treatments for people who are not so lucky. I would not suffer at all if you were to live without drugs. However, I would suffer if someone were to make it a project to take them away from me.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 20:37:10
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 19:22:12
Huxley, my point was that many people willingly submit to cancer chemotherapy with even slimmer odds of recovery than many who take psych meds. This is an empirical fact. And even the doctors administering the drugs don't dispute their toxicity, whereas (though you will probably disagree) many doctors who prescribe psych meds honestly do not believe all the sensationalist and alarmist studies and reports claiming that psych drugs are both ineffective and dangerous. Does that mean they do not understand the risks? Perhaps some don't, but many do and just as with the oncologist they discuss these risks with their patients. But then I reject the broad-brush picture you and others here paint of "psychiatry" as populated by ignorant, unambitious, evil doctors in thrall to Big Pharma. My analogy to cancer was meant, among other things, to suggest that oncology and psychiatry use drugs in similar ways, but it is very rare to hear people raging against that medical specialty. Which suggests to me that the hatred of psychiatry is cultural, not medical, probably because it is rooted in a peculiarly American form of Puritanism that prefers to blame mental illness on moral failure and lack of character and which enforces these beliefs with an individualist ideology that tells people they must pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. It's a view I categorically reject.
As for the supposed exclusivity of this thread, no one specified that requirement at the start and as Scott suggests we're all likely to learn more if we hammer these things out in reasoned debate. Finally, I would note at least a stylistic asymmetry between the defenders of psych meds in this and related threads and those who oppose them: The defenders, by and large, understand that psych meds are not for everyone, are likely over-prescribed, have side effects that can be debilitating for some, but also work for some; whereas the anti-med camp makes unsupportable global claims about all of psychiatry and uses an arsenal of words and phrases that carry negative connotations. It also seems that the defenders of psych meds often take pains to distinguish between different kinds of drugs, to admit that Big Pharma is a problem, and to agree that some doctors are ill-informed; whereas a lot of the recent posts in this thread from the anti-med camp make no such fine distinctions, implying that those of us who take medications are either ignorant or deluded. We are neither: we have simply made different choices from you.
Posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 20:39:22
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
I don't consider myself an "anti-med person", but I really like this thread (thanks Huxley!). I also think this is the most appropriate place for the discussion.
Chujoe, in reference to the cancer scenerio you described, like Phillipa said, it's difficult to say w/o having had been in that specific situation. But I have just as good of an imagination as anyone else I suppose...
First, (probably after recovering from possible shock from learning of the diagnosis) I would compare the benefits and risks of getting treatment vs. not getting treatment. If I was 95 years old and had other medical problems, knowing I was going to die soon anyway, I might not wish to go through chemotherapy. What if I had no family to help me through it? Family issues would be a huge concern-what if my child, who traveled weekly for her dream job, had to give up s career to take me to all my appointments and checkups and tests? What is the probability of success after chemoteraphy, and projected lifespan for those who undergo the treatment successfully? If it is not successful, do I have a hospice option or will I end up in a shady nursing home left unattended much of time time, eating green jello? Do I have retirement savings or someone who will provide me with money to get the treatment; if not, am I willing to file bankruptcy or not pay the bills? If I don't pay my medical bills, will all, none, or just some of my doctors still treat me if I had no money to pay what Medicaid did not cover?
Quality of life would be an important factor. If I was going blind from macular degeneration and was in pain every day, maybe I would want to forgoe chemotherapy and die. Would I have to wear one of those bags for the rest of my life, unable to use a toilet? What if I had COPD (or another illness) and was highly susceptible to pneumonia-will I die sooner from chemotherapy destroying my immune system?
Is the cancer still localized, or spread throughout my body? If it had spread throughout my body, maybe I could experience a bit more life enjoyment during the last year of my life by foregoing chemotherapy and spending time with my family or traveling the world until I was no longer able to walk.
I'd have to get 2nd and 3rd opinions from other oncologists or specialists, and see if there are research trials or other treatment options available. Of course, the latest treatment options would be an option only if I could afford them-Medicare likely will only cover conventional treatments.
etc. etc. etc.
Even without further rambling, it becomes more apparent that the issue becomes less black and white and turns grey.
There are some notable differences if you look at a psychiatric scenerio - Many of us initially start medications at a young age...If I was 18, I probably would not ask all of these questions (was this before or after Al Gore invented the internet?) because I wouldn't have had years of medical experiences or life experiences to consider to assist me in decision making. I might be dependent on my parents who insist I take medications--maybe I have no choice at all. Worse, I probably would not be thinking clearly at the time. Or maybe I am trusting of authority figures since I am 18 and had not yet been burnt by a professional before?
What is my degree of depression? Moderate; severe? If my general practitioner noticed depression, I would likely be referred to a psychiatrist who would ask me a few questions then prescribe me an anti-depressant. The other treatment options available would not be discussed with me and I would not be prescribed me medical tests to rule out other things. I would also not be informed about most of the side effects. Everyone would ask, though, if I have a family history of mental illness.
etc. etc. etc.
I am not referring to the ideal-this was my experience with 5 psychiatrists. Having no health insurance for years at a time affected my treatment as well. People should be informed of all their options and likelihood of recovery with or without the medications. People should be assessed for psychological issues in case psychotherapy would be more appropriate and effective than medications. Unfortunately, it didn't happen this way for me and I regret it.
Of course, if the I was suicidal in this scenerio, the treatment decision would be more clear.
Posted by mrtook on June 20, 2010, at 21:02:17
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » chujoe, posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 20:39:22
I think one important consideration is that for quite a few people the placebo and nocebo effects constitute a significant portion of an individual's response to medication or supplements. (This is true even outside of psychiatry.) When people cast relatively unfounded aspersions about either it is not of much benefit.
Posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 22:38:20
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 17, 2010, at 22:25:19
"I went down the path of being medicated. While they improved out of sight, I went steadily downwards on a bell like curve. I had a relationship breakup 2 years ago. My mind simply seemed unable to deal with it and I was put
on several more drugs.And now if you met myself and my brothers you would see the difference in where we are at in our lives. I can tell you that there is a very marked difference in
- Cognative ability
- emotional stability
- empathy
- Social skills
- Physical health
- appearance
__________________Huxley,
Please don't beat yourself up too much over your decision to take drugs (although writing about it here might be helping to relieve guilt?). If it makes you feel any differently, my siblings and mother and father did not seek psych treatment and were and still are much worse off than I. Actually, my father died young from heart problems. Never worked through his crap. Maybe ADs would have helped him? He never sought medical care, but he really needed therapy to deal with the nightmare of a childhood he had. My mother is a different story-she is in denial and does not think she has psychological issues. Although she did not die young, sometimes I feel she is worse off than my dead father. If you only knew..
While you didn't say you were 100% sure if or how your life would be different, I sense that 'decision remorse'. I also think you can turn that around-things you are posting here might lead someone else to reconsider their choices and have a better outcome. In my view, it doesn't matter so much who is for or against meds-what matters is that individuals get individualized treatment according to their individual needs. The three i's of illness. It matters that people are educated about their choices.
I 'guilt' about it too...I wasn't thinking clearly at the time and didn't bother researching anything, too busy with responsibilities..so busy that I wouldn't have had much time anyway. I just trusted my doctors. I didn't start any meds until I was almost 30, had managed anxiety and dysthmia (and my defense mechanisms held up) for years without them. They worked inititally for one notable situation-on onset of PTSD-when I can truly say I needed a drug..then from time to time for anxiety.
I'd go off ADs-only to get severe anxiety attacks within a few weeks. Although I had anxiety since a young age...A benzo would have been appropriate for me during most of my psychiatric years after the onset, but instead, I was always given SSRIs which made me miserable. The anxiety wasn't daily. I was never told of the treatment options and did not research drugs. I never even knew the difference between a SSRI and a benzo. (I'm not saying there are no risks with benzos, but some people are better off w/o seratonin-targeting drugs and have no problems with addiction or tolerance.) Aside from that, when I was at my best, although med-free-despite having anxiety from time to time-when I'd go back to a Pdoc I was never advised to take vitamins B, magnesium and all the other stuff that helps prevent mental health decline when you are well enough to keep up with prevention techniques such as regular exercise.
It was a couple years ago, when after being med free for a while, that I went back to a PDoc to get meds for anxiety during a time of high-stress. He put me on Zoloft. It made me worse. At the 2 month return visit, still ill with side effects, I told him I could not function on the AD-needing 12 hours of sleep a day-falling asleep at my desk- missing work and classes..he said "what do you want me to do?" That is when I started doing my research. Still, it has taken me years to equip myself with enough information to determine the best course of treatment for me.
...and I'm mad as hell that only 1 of my former PDocs recommended psychotherapy...At least he did suggest it to me-but he had me see someone at his office who appeared to have more problems than I did..long story. Anyway, it was CBT. So I went to another who was referred to me-who also did CBT (I didn't even know therapy was 'called' anything at the time; didn't know there were different 'types' of therapy). I was ignorant-I just thought a therapist was someone you talk to about your problems... CBT made me worse and wasted money and precious time-prolonged my illness. So I guess I can say I am mad as hell at myself for not checking into the different types of therapy years ago.
So you see, I'm dealing with guilt too. It's difficult when you internalize anger. It took me a long time to say I was angry with PDocs for not telling me how my childhood issues may have led to mental illness, the different types of psychotherapy, and all the other stuff you learn on your own. Although with 10 minute appointments, how do you end up with appropriate care anyway?
Finally, I taught myself enough to realize a certain type of psychotherapy is what I needed. I am slowly getting better and taking less meds than before. It's healthy for me to talk about this. Although I consider myself to be procrastinating, I feel a little bit better.
I think its healthy for you to share your story here too. It's better than internalizing it all. I'm still working on that issue, and hope you are not so bad off in that regard.
Take care,
Violette
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 23:54:46
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » Huxley, posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 22:38:20
Mrtook,
I like your post a lot. There is a lot of evidence that correlates the magnitude of benefit a patient ascribes to his treatment depends on their confidence in their doctor and in the treatment to make them well. So casting aspersions, like you said, benefits no one, regardless of which side of the fence you sit on.
Also, violette, thanks for sharing your story. I'm really sorry about your parents. I watched my mom's twin spiral into depression and alcoholism, and it was a terrible sigh, to see someone in denial, so stupid and beaten. I never knew my father, but I know that he is alive, thank god.
Violette, huxley, here is a radio interview of Steven Morgan, he is someone who really inspires me : http://www.madnessradio.net/madness-radio-reinventing-bipolar-steven-morgan. He plainly speaks to the issue.
Posted by Huxley on June 21, 2010, at 1:33:38
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 3:14:49
> > Hi Bobman,
> >
> > Thanks for your post. I think we feel the same way about psychiatry however you have put it into words much better than I ever could.
> >
> > Can you please tell me your experiences and methods getting of the lactimal and cymbalta.
> >
> > I am on lactimal at the moment. I have tirated down to 100mg with little trouble from 400mg. Would I be expecting to run into trouble when I completly cut it out.
> >
> > Good to hear the mental side effects of lactimal are receeding. I currently can't remember a thing.
> >
> > Also interested how you went about getting of the SSRI/NI. Did you wean off it?
>
> Hey Huxley,
>
> Well, first of all, good luck, be strong man. With regards to lamictal taper, honestly I can barely remember it, I still have little memory of my lamictal days (memory is coming back though). I know for a fact that I was somewhere ~50mg when I dropped. If I remember correctly, I had 100mg pink tablets which have center-line scoring, so 50mg is easy, and beyond that you just bite off pieces or use a cutter. I'd say I probably went down to ~25mg before I dropped it completely, but I'd recommend you taper as low as you have patience for. I'd spend 2 months going from 100mg to 0, no less. Maybe take 3, but honestly eventually you just get so impatient. That happened for me afterI had been chewing off pieces off the 25mg tab for a month.
>
> My memory on lamictal was also absolutely horrible. Couldn't hold on to a thought. I'm still so mad I took the stuff.
>
> On belief in recovery:
>
> You absolutely need it. If anyone tells you spirit, faith, and desire don't matter, run. This was harder on me than quitting a 5 year 2 pack a day habit cold turkey, and without a strong image of who I want to be (I'm still in school, somewhat young), I would absolutely not have made the progress that I have. Meditation is also something I very very highly recommend. Find a local center, you can do group meditation for free. Also, if you can, boxing helps a lot. I boxed muay thai at an MMA gym and that helped tremendously, and gets you into incredible shape, especially if you gear for amateur (or pro!) fights.
>
> Cymbalta I tapered by opening the capsule and taking the little spheres directly. I would start of with say 75% of the spheres, and drop eventually to taking only 5 or so. I would recommend getting the lowest dose full pill, and once you've adjusted to that dose, going to the spheres. I'd spend a month tapering after you adjust to the lower dose.
>
> Next post is on some recommendations for substances that augmented my recovery. Good luck my friend.
>Hey Bobman,
The common theme for people
withdrawing from meds is that it is extremly hard.
I really had no idea it was going to be this hard. Thanks for the tips, always good to hear from someone who has successfully done it.
Posted by Hombre on June 21, 2010, at 2:10:29
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 21, 2010, at 1:33:38
Actually, bobman, as you are probably aware, your Muay Thai training is just as likely to have spurred neurogenesis as the herbs. Vigorous aerobic exercise has been shown to increase the various nerve-growing factors you mentioned, even in rodents that have been exposed to too much alcohol as fetuses. Feti? Feta? No, that's a cheese. Point being that exercise can reverse damage done early on.
There are even some studies done at the University of Illinois that have shown growth in the prefrontal cortex, but I'm not sure if these results have been reproduced yet. Definitely growth in the hippocampus. Encouraging.
I just thought I'd bring it up because you only mentioned it in passing, but actually there is probably more evidence sitting behind the power of exercise to regrow brain cells than eating turmeric or gotu kola. The fact that you were also learning somewhat complex movements and adapting to the stress of people throwing elbows and roundhouse kicks at you --> a recipe for recovery.
Check out the book "Spark" for some encouraging new ideas about the power of exercise to rebuild a broken brain.
Posted by bobman on June 21, 2010, at 11:12:12
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Hombre on June 21, 2010, at 2:10:29
> Actually, bobman, as you are probably aware, your Muay Thai training is just as likely to have spurred neurogenesis as the herbs. Vigorous aerobic exercise has been shown to increase the various nerve-growing factors you mentioned, even in rodents that have been exposed to too much alcohol as fetuses. Feti? Feta? No, that's a cheese. Point being that exercise can reverse damage done early on.
>
> There are even some studies done at the University of Illinois that have shown growth in the prefrontal cortex, but I'm not sure if these results have been reproduced yet. Definitely growth in the hippocampus. Encouraging.
>
> I just thought I'd bring it up because you only mentioned it in passing, but actually there is probably more evidence sitting behind the power of exercise to regrow brain cells than eating turmeric or gotu kola. The fact that you were also learning somewhat complex movements and adapting to the stress of people throwing elbows and roundhouse kicks at you --> a recipe for recovery.
>
> Check out the book "Spark" for some encouraging new ideas about the power of exercise to rebuild a broken brain.Cool man, thanks for the ideas. Yeah, I was aware of the general consensus on neurogenesis and recovery. In some of the studies that I've read, and I believe it was one on curcumin, the significant effect demonstrated was said to be equal to that from exercise. Which makes me wonder if the effects are additive/independent, or whether both exercise and the nerogenic effect of some exogenous substances achieve increase via the same pathways, and are therefore mutually exclusive. I'd like to think that the effect is additive of course.
As far as I know, pretty much everything that increases brain levels of glutathione and superoxide dismutase is shown to be "neurogenic", although that relationship is certainly due at least in part to the survival of more neurites & mature neurons, as opposed to an increase in neural stem cell proliferation or increased differentiation (afaik, exercise increases the latter, possibly proliferation as well?). It's actually interesting, because neural stem cells apparently survive upwards of a year, so although neural stem cells in the brain are produced at a fairly low rate, they have the life span to migrate to every region (demonstrated to be produced in the pre-frontal cortex ventricles as well dendate gyrus), and can therefore contribute a large amount of material to any damaged area. Scar tissue is probably the largest impedance to cognitive recovery, and you would only have that (as far as I know) from TBI, and it doesn't seem unlikely that some substances could dissolve scars, both endogenous and exogenous. Exercise probably increases the catabolism of scars. I know for instance, of one substance that has been demonstrated to dissolve insoluble amyloid beta plaques.
Posted by bobman on June 21, 2010, at 11:49:03
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 21, 2010, at 1:33:38
> > > Hi Bobman,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your post. I think we feel the same way about psychiatry however you have put it into words much better than I ever could.
> > >
> > > Can you please tell me your experiences and methods getting of the lactimal and cymbalta.
> > >
> > > I am on lactimal at the moment. I have tirated down to 100mg with little trouble from 400mg. Would I be expecting to run into trouble when I completly cut it out.
> > >
> > > Good to hear the mental side effects of lactimal are receeding. I currently can't remember a thing.
> > >
> > > Also interested how you went about getting of the SSRI/NI. Did you wean off it?
> >
> > Hey Huxley,
> >
> > Well, first of all, good luck, be strong man. With regards to lamictal taper, honestly I can barely remember it, I still have little memory of my lamictal days (memory is coming back though). I know for a fact that I was somewhere ~50mg when I dropped. If I remember correctly, I had 100mg pink tablets which have center-line scoring, so 50mg is easy, and beyond that you just bite off pieces or use a cutter. I'd say I probably went down to ~25mg before I dropped it completely, but I'd recommend you taper as low as you have patience for. I'd spend 2 months going from 100mg to 0, no less. Maybe take 3, but honestly eventually you just get so impatient. That happened for me afterI had been chewing off pieces off the 25mg tab for a month.
> >
> > My memory on lamictal was also absolutely horrible. Couldn't hold on to a thought. I'm still so mad I took the stuff.
> >
> > On belief in recovery:
> >
> > You absolutely need it. If anyone tells you spirit, faith, and desire don't matter, run. This was harder on me than quitting a 5 year 2 pack a day habit cold turkey, and without a strong image of who I want to be (I'm still in school, somewhat young), I would absolutely not have made the progress that I have. Meditation is also something I very very highly recommend. Find a local center, you can do group meditation for free. Also, if you can, boxing helps a lot. I boxed muay thai at an MMA gym and that helped tremendously, and gets you into incredible shape, especially if you gear for amateur (or pro!) fights.
> >
> > Cymbalta I tapered by opening the capsule and taking the little spheres directly. I would start of with say 75% of the spheres, and drop eventually to taking only 5 or so. I would recommend getting the lowest dose full pill, and once you've adjusted to that dose, going to the spheres. I'd spend a month tapering after you adjust to the lower dose.
> >
> > Next post is on some recommendations for substances that augmented my recovery. Good luck my friend.
> >
>
> Hey Bobman,
> The common theme for people
> withdrawing from meds is that it is extremly hard.
> I really had no idea it was going to be this hard. Thanks for the tips, always good to hear from someone who has successfully done it.
>Hey Huxley,
It might not be that hard for you. Don't let my story get to your head. I know of others who have quit similar drugs without much issue. It might have had something to do with me having a 1 month cessation in the middle of therapy, which was the command of my 2nd pdoc, done to prep me for transition to deprenyl (he never prescribed it, and recommend after a clean month to restart lamictal at 100mg, and gave me cymbalta). I got worse after that I think, so maybe that made me hypersensitive to it.
Anyways, even if you have it harder, recovery is still definitely possible. I've read stories where people who had been on far more toxic cocktails (combinations of neuroleptics, atypicals, aed's & benzodiazepene's, and usually a dnri or snri), for many more years and recovered just fine. There is no reason to believe lamictal is significantly neurotoxic at the dose we're prescribed (serum levels on the order of 1-4 micromole/ml, whereas neurotoxic effects occur at maybe 10-50 times that in rodents). In fact, lamictal actually is slightly neurogenic, although atrophic to glial cells. It is mostly a question of learning how to think again, recovering old connections & memories, and transitioning into a life style that is conduit to mental & physical health.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 21, 2010, at 18:30:07
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope- Dr. Bob, posted by Justherself54 on June 20, 2010, at 15:05:40
> Can you or someone explain to me why this thread has been allowed to remain on the medication board? This board is supposed to be for support and education.
>
> Frick sakes Dr. Bob. I hold you partly responsible for letting this get out of hand in the first place.I accept partial responsibility. I'd also like to redirect follow-ups regarding this thread remaining on this board to Psycho-Babble Administration. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/951774.html
That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Hombre on June 22, 2010, at 4:36:49
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 21, 2010, at 11:12:12
I apologize for the triple post. My connection was slow and I guess I got impatient.
---
bobman - I wish you continued health and hope that someday you are able to put all your research together into something that can help others. I mean that in a truly hopeful way, I just don't know how to phrase it without it sounding condescending or whatever. I'm sure you get my drift.
Posted by emme on June 22, 2010, at 6:04:05
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
> I have not posted in the acceptance of meds gives me happiness thread because I would have nothing positive to say.
>
> If people are happy taking meds and feel that they are essential then I think it is wise to ignore all the bad studies and statistics that are coming out about there long term use.
>
> If you are one of these people then don't read on because this will not help you.
>
> This thread is for people who are not happy, they are not doing well on drugs and feel that they would be better off without them yet cannot get off them because of they have put your brain into a vulnerable biochemical state.
>
>
> Did you know that Depression was originally one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment?
>
> Here is a quote from anatomy of an epidemic.
>
> "The SSRI path to a disabling mental illness can be easily seen. A depressed patient treated with an anti-depressant suffers a manic or psychotic episode, at which time his or her diagnosis is changed to bipolar disorder. At that point, the person is prescribed an anti-psychotic to go along with the anti-depressant, and, once on a drug cocktail, the person is well along on the road to permanent disability"
>
> Does anyone else believe this or have I been spooked by an 'aids denier'?
>
>
I am curious. If you have decided that medication is not the path for you, then why are you reading and posting on a board specifically dedicated to mutual support in the use of medication?I'm not trying to change your mind, or to imply that you are not welcome as a variety of viewpoints makes for interesting discussion. I'm just curious as to what the draw is for you.
Posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 6:34:24
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by emme on June 22, 2010, at 6:04:05
> I am curious. If you have decided that medication is not the path for you, then why are you reading and posting on a board specifically dedicated to mutual support in the use of medication?
>
> I'm not trying to change your mind, or to imply that you are not welcome as a variety of viewpoints makes for interesting discussion. I'm just curious as to what the draw is for you.
>
Hi Emme,I wanted to respond even though your post isn't addressed to me.
I visit and post on these boards because I noticed there are several people who seem to have doubts about medication and wonder if there is another way.
Also, I see so many people tapering way too quickly and wondering why they're suffering so much.
So hopefully, by posting my story about getting off of meds by tapering slowly after 15 years on them, I can be an inspiration to people.
Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area. If I am going to be successful, I need to be familiar with opposing viewpoints so I know how best to respond.
Even if I don't become advocate, it still helps me to read posts by people who don't agree with me.
49er
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2010, at 6:40:29
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » emme, posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 6:34:24
Hi 49er.
> Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area.
What would you be advocating, and who would you be advocating for?
- Scott
Posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 7:20:13
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » 49er, posted by SLS on June 22, 2010, at 6:40:29
> Hi 49er.
>
> > Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area.
>
> What would you be advocating, and who would you be advocating for?
>
>
> - ScottGood question Scott, I don't know.
There are so many pressing issues.
I have thought about starting a local support group for people who want to come off of psych meds. But I worry about legal issues so I would have to make sure that was covered.
But there are other issues that aren't about whether you are pro meds or anti meds. For example, it seems that many mental hospitals are punishment oriented vs. treatment oriented.
http://raisingbipolar.com/2010/06/14/the-psychiatric-hospital-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/
But I don't know if I honestly have the courage to take that on.
Anyway, good question for which I don't yet have an answer.
49er
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2010, at 7:34:26
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » SLS, posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 7:20:13
> I have thought about starting a local support group for people who want to come off of psych meds.
I'm sure you would be good at it.
Would you have any mechanism in place that would screen for people for whom discontinuing treatment would be contraindicated? Do you think there is any place for antidepressants, mood stabilizers, or antipsychotics in treating the mentally ill?
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 22, 2010, at 13:49:53
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bulldog2 on June 20, 2010, at 8:10:17
> I find most of the above to be vodoo science. ... Obviously you are very young and don't have years of experience to see what works and doesn't. ... You lecture those who have been through the school of life.
For the record, bulldog was blocked for 3 weeks on the Social board. bobman, thanks for being civil when when you replied.
Bob
Posted by Huxley on June 22, 2010, at 19:17:07
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by emme on June 22, 2010, at 6:04:05
> I'm not trying to change your mind, or to imply that you are not welcome as a variety of viewpoints makes for interesting discussion. I'm just curious as to what the draw is for you.
>Hi emme,
That is a good question. I guess I am just venting my displeasure at the experience that I have been subjected to. It is all pretty new to me, I blindly accepted from my dr that I had a chemical imbalance which was being balanced by a drug.
Once I stopped blindly accepting that I need medication and opened my mind to critisim of psychiatry it was like opening the flood gates.
So I guess I am throwing it out there and seeing what people with experience think. I have no interest in converting anyone to my viewpoints. My 'anti-med' posts more came out of anger at what I have been discovering.
I am pleased to find so many people here who have gone through the same thing as me and are doing pretty well for themselves.
Posted by Huxley on June 22, 2010, at 19:31:12
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » emme, posted by 49er on June 22, 2010, at 6:34:24
> >
> Hi Emme,
>
> I wanted to respond even though your post isn't addressed to me.
>
> I visit and post on these boards because I noticed there are several people who seem to have doubts about medication and wonder if there is another way.
>
> Also, I see so many people tapering way too quickly and wondering why they're suffering so much.
>
> So hopefully, by posting my story about getting off of meds by tapering slowly after 15 years on them, I can be an inspiration to people.
>
> Also, I have thought about going into advocacy in this area. If I am going to be successful, I need to be familiar with opposing viewpoints so I know how best to respond.
>
> Even if I don't become advocate, it still helps me to read posts by people who don't agree with me.
>
> 49erHi 49er,
You story has helped me alot so you are already doing some good.
I think there is a need in society for psychmed withdrawal facilities. There is next to no information on withdrawing from psych meds. I am yet to find a doctor who has any idea what they are talking about when it comes to psychmeds.
I ditched my old doctor and saw a new doctor yesterday for his ideas on getting me of Lactimal, Zyprexa and Pristiq.
His plan was this. Stop the lactimal CT, stop the Zyprexa CT and he gave me a starter pack of lexapro and told me to stop taking pristiq and take one lexapro every 4 days until the 10 pack runs out then stop CT.
I explained to him the consequences of doing this and he scoffed at me.
How on earth can anyone have any faith in a medical system when you pay some egotistical jackass $100 for 15 minutes to get ridiculed and advice that will end you up in the emergancy room in a hospital.
So the best resource I have to get of psych meds is people like 49er.
Posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 1:35:28
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 22, 2010, at 19:31:12
I have a few questions for those who feel they need meds, dont take these as an attack. It is just the same questions I have asked myself over the last couple of months and would be interested to see how others rationalise it.
Do you feel that you are better off or worse than before you were taking meds?
Do you feel that your illness would have gotten better or worse without meds?
What do you think about the studies showing that SSRIs are no better than placebos?
Do you think it is possible that meds can actually be the cause of a problem and actually make your illness worse?
Do you think that doctors have diagnosed you on the side effects or withdrawals of other drugs, i.e an AD makes you agitated so they see that as bipolar.
Do you feel disheartened by doctors who seem to know nothing about your condition and nothing about the medication they prescribe to you?
Thanks for anyone who answers.
Huxley
Posted by emme on June 23, 2010, at 6:29:48
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 23, 2010, at 1:35:28
> I have a few questions for those who feel they need meds, dont take these as an attack. It is just the same questions I have asked myself over the last couple of months and would be interested to see how others rationalise it.
Hi there. Just to be clear - my answers below aren't rationalizations but are based on my observations of my experiences with meds over the years.
> Do you feel that you are better off or worse than before you were taking meds?
Better! This isn't to say it happened right away - it took a while to find meds that worked properly.
> Do you feel that your illness would have gotten better or worse without meds?
One cannot prove a negative, so I can't say with 100% certainty that it *never* would have gotten better without meds. BUT, I lived most of my adult life with chronic anxiety, and the depression became so severe that something had to be done, and therapy, exercise, yoga, etc. were not touching it.
> What do you think about the studies showing that SSRIs are no better than placebos?
That issue has been debated here many times, so I won't go into it except to say I tend to agree with those that have pointed out that the screening and selection criteria may not have picked participants who had severe depression and would really benefit from medication.
I am quite sure my responses have not been placebo effect. I have also tried a number of meds that did nothing - I would expect a response to everything if the placebo effect were a major player in my case.
> Do you think it is possible that meds can actually be the cause of a problem and actually make your illness worse?
Sure, if it's the *wrong* med for you. They key to using meds properly is to pay attention to what is going on when you take them. If it doesn't feel right, you talk to the doc and may need to stop. But just because a particular med makes you worse doesn't mean a good treatment is not out there for you.
> Do you think that doctors have diagnosed you on the side effects or withdrawals of other drugs, i.e an AD makes you agitated so they see that as bipolar.
No. My doctors have been aware of discontinuation effects and always believe me when I tell them I believe a certain symptom is a side effect.
> Do you feel disheartened by doctors who seem to know nothing about your condition and nothing about the medication they prescribe to you?
My doctors have been nothing short of WONDERFUL. Very knowledgeable, responsive, conscientious, up to date on research. I know people have had bad experiences. There are poor practitioners in every profession. But there really are terrific psychiatrists out there. After I moved a few years ago, it took a few tries to find the one I'm with now.
I don't mean to say it's easy. It can be hard trying different meds, deciding which side effects are livable if a med is working, sticking with it. But, I'm grateful and lucky to not be in pain all the time and to have a life back.
emme
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.