![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 88. Go back in thread:
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 3:28:32
In reply to Re: please be civil » bobman, posted by Dr. Bob on June 20, 2010, at 2:21:42
Recovery has not been linear, and overall slower than I expected.
Amino acids & related:
At month 7 I discovered SAM-e, and ingesting that gave me the first cognitive/memory jump forward. I made huge progress within a few days of starting that (at low dose too...400mg first day, 200mg 2nd, and 100mg/day after that...gradually back up to 400/day within a few months). I haven't taken SAM-e for 3 months, and the improvements are here to stay. PS SAM-e is naturally produced by your body, so I consider it ok for recovery purposes, especially since it increases polyamine & monoamine synthesis (and therefore neurotransmitter synthesis btw) which was shut down by lamictal (partially by extracellular glutamate inhibition, but mainly because it reduces serum levels of methyl-tetrahydrofolate reductase, which is an enzyme necessary for the reduction of folate to the final, central nervous system relevant version of folate (5-methyl-tetrahydrofolate).Nootropics:
I wouldn't mess with any of the stronger stuff, for fear of psychological addiction (meaning piracetam and aniracetam).I'd recommend taking Acetyl-l-carnitine (ALCAR). ALCAR has very promising studies on its effects on neurite outgrowth in the presence of BDNF (BDNF is always present in the brain, is basically something that activates the growing function of your brain...neurites are baby neurons...if they are not able to connect to a neighboring neuron, they die, so anything that enhances neurite outgrowth is very good)
Herbs:
Research Ayurveda, namely medhva rasayana.I would recommend whole herb gotu kola and turmeric, organic from Frontier Coop or another high quality source. I eat 1-2 teaspoons/day of turmeric (this one is ~5% curcumin) and 4-9 grams of gotu kola. I would also recommend a good ashwagandha extract (NOW Ashwagandha is cGMP certified, recommended). All of these increase neurogenesis dramatically in animal studies, and are demonstrated to be neuroactive in humans. Curcumin is neurogenic only at a low dose, and so I wouldn't take an extract. The whole herb also has much higher bioavailability of curcumin, and provides enough curcumin (1-2 teaspoons aka 4-8grams of Alleppey turmeric is ~200-400mg curcumin). Ashwagandha I'd recommend an extract (NOW Ashwagandha is the best I've found). None of these herbs make you feel like you're taking a drug. And you are not. I would recommend you incorporate the gotu kola and turmeric into your diet, and after a time switch to whole herb ashwagandha and use it in tea.
Finally remember that until a circuit is restored there is no signal, and so you will not experience any change until the connection is melded. Taking the right herbs & nootropics will ensure that nerve regeneration is dramatically sped up, but regardless of how you approach your recovery, your experience of recovery will be non linear.
Pm me if you have any questions. I've done a few thousand hours of research on neurology, the systems that lamictal affects, neuronal plasticity in response to "soft" sources (like experience, meditation, emotional states), and "hard" sources, like pharmaceuticals, nootropics, & herbal psychoactive substances. There is very little that indicates that a person cannot recover fully. People say the brain is very fragile. This is logically implausible. The brain is the single most important organ in the body, and by far the most exposed. If it were fragile, we'd all be idiots by 25.
Posted by Conundrum on June 20, 2010, at 8:02:07
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
Let's please keep this thread "anti-med." Thank you.
Posted by bulldog2 on June 20, 2010, at 8:10:17
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:12
> By the way, I'm also rejecting meds. It has been very very difficult to come off my lamictal + cymbalta combo. Lamictal I used for nearly 2 years, at dosages between 25mg and 275mg (averaged about 175mg for the first year, and about 75mg for the last 6-8 months, don't remember exactly).
>
> I'm 24, and I've been clean from any pharmaceutical since February 14 2009. In response to a preceding post, I make a distinction between pharmaceutical psychotropics, and pscyhotropic substance from the earth. Yes, foods affect the psyche, but they aren't backed by thousands of years of safety testing. Herbs that our predecessors evolved alongside and used for sustenance I trust to restore me. Novel synthetic substances are flat out devastating on our bodies, as evidenced by the huge list of side effects attached to every psychotropic medication. It's not about trying to exist without ingesting anything, it's about using real solutions to live fully.
>
> I now eat/make tea with gotu kola whole herb (4-9g/day), eat alleppe turmeric (~4-6g/day), lots of spinach, fish, broccoli. Other than that I study very hard, do my best to work out, although that has been difficult as I had complicated bilateral shoulder surgeries 9 months ago. I've reforged my relationship with my mother, and I go to school at a top 30 university full time. I worked before the injuries, but haven't since the surgeries. 2 months after I turned 18 I graduated from the #1 boarding school in the world. I had a bright future. Since I started psychotropic medications I have struggled; and I've lost a few years of my life.
>
> To the OP, I also used AA to help my recovery, going to meetings for several months. I went through step 4 of the handbook(where you make amends with those you hurt), leaving the program shortly after because I didn't have a substance-addictive personality, and was beginning to feel out of place. Currently I'm looking at some mental-recovery, AA-like programs, though I haven't really done much about that recently. I spend most of my free time either reading or meditating (I meditated at a Vasrayana meditation center for 4 months before the surgeries, and learned a bit about it there), and figuring out what I'm going to do from here on. I read my high school's monthly alum journal, and see my friends in Harvard graduate programs, serving overseas, working as some of the highest-level 23-24 year old execs at Forbes 100 companies, and joining Oxford as Rhodes scholars. I'm just now regaining my mind enough to think about going into a more serious university major (I'm in business currently, want to go into chemistry and neuromedicine or genetics).
>
>
>
> I know not everyone will agree with that view, but I've been through the western medical system, and the solutions it provides are clearly market-opportunity driven. Otherwise I couldn't imagine a justification for administering a medication to correct a neurotransmitter imbalance which is never tested for. Psychiartrists do not in practice use the scientific method in their treatment protocols. Psychiatry is clearly an observational medicine, with no falsifiable hypothesis, not unlike religion-based medicine. It is however, more dangerous, because in melding jargon backed by industry influenced studies, it carries a sway over people that today religion cannot. In fact, the blind faith people have in science is reminiscent of religious zealots, for both follow the word of an authority backed by assurances of truth. Very few mental patients have the capacity to understand the medical studies their treatment is based on. I've spent enough time reading studies on m.i treatments (armed with only 1 year of biomed eng. admittedly) to understand that they are, at best, shots in the dark with buckshot.
>
> Sorry for the long post, it's just been hard to be "mentally-interesting" while having to deal with all sorts of cognitive issues that emerged after ~ 6 months of lamictal, still present (though receding) today. If you've read this entire post, thank you, if not, please take a few minutes if you can.I am much older than you and have had years to try just about everything. I find most of the above to be vodoo science. You criticize psychiatry for their method well there is no method in alternative medicine. Let's do some double blind scientic testing to see if these things really work. All of the above is faith based. Obviously you are very young and don't have years of experience to see what works and doesn't. Now you tell us about being drug free for a certain finite length of time. Let us see in 20 years what the story. You lecture those who have been through the school of life.
Posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 11:44:28
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 3:14:49
bobman,
Your post is very inspiring...I'm pretty worn down right now by a lifetime of stressors, but when I am able to reduce some of my enivornmental stressors, I hope my self-discipline returns so that I can follow your approach.
About the tumeric - how to you take 1-2 tsp. a day? I bought a bag of tumeric powder from an organic retailer online (I had researched the properties of the herb and it sounds very healthful). When I make a curry, whether with chick peas, tomatoes, coconut milk, etc., I use only about 1/2 a tblsp. in the whole dish. How do you incorporate it into your daily diet? I thought of dissolving it in hot water to form a tea, but it is the orangish yellow type-and is almost like a yellow dye (doesn't it stain your teeth??). My other thought was mixing it with plain yogurt. Anyway, I'd appreciate your advice on this.
Haven't you also considered psychotherapy in your routine? I found the older you get, the more mental health issues sort of weaken your brain's coping abilities. It's an antecdotal thought, and my psychiatrist noted this as well as a result of his 30 some years of practice.
Thanks
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Conundrum on June 20, 2010, at 8:02:07
I have a question for the anti-med folks here & I ask it in all sincerity because I would like to know & I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I asked this on the social board, but nobody responded, so maybe no one is interested, but I'll try again here, since it is a question about medication.
If you were diagnosed with lung or colon cancer & your oncologist told you that without treatment you had maybe a year to live, would you be willing to undergo chemotherapy, knowing, as your doctor would surely tell you, that the various drug "cocktails" used are toxic to your immune system and might not work or might leave you with permanent physical and mental deficits? And also knowing that the various combinations of drugs are often used in a trial and error manner to see which patient responds to which combination?
I ask this, obviously, because I see an analogy between cancer drugs and psych drugs -- some are destructive for some people, some don't work, when used in combinations there is little clear clinical evidence on which to design the cocktail, etc. Still, using chemo & using psych drugs leads to remission in some patients.
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2010, at 13:04:21
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
I don't feel you can answer the chemo question as I've always said no but until faced with that decision you won't know. Phillipa
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 13:46:09
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » chujoe, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2010, at 13:04:21
P- Granted, it's a hypothetical question, but such questions can be useful in clarifying one's thinking, I believe. And we do know -- and you as a nurse certainly know -- that many cancer patients weigh the risks and benefits and then decide to have chemo and that there is not a movement that discourages them from doing so or disparages their choice. Quite the opposite, in fact: such people are often referred to as "strong" or "courageous," etc. So I want to know what the difference is.
Posted by Conundrum on June 20, 2010, at 13:53:32
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
Well since being on prozac left me with anhedonia, memory problems, sexual dysfunction, and for awhile fatigue. Mind you I'm not on it and still have the first 3 problems and never had them before. I have to say "No" If i knew this then I wouldn't have taken it. In some previous posts I've mentioned that after everything else such as diet, medication, exercise failed to return me to baseline, I'm trying to fight fire with fire.
Now I realize this thread is kind of demoralizing. So I will refrain from going on about this since my situation is abnormal. I mainly came here for info on drugs that can help or reverse anhedonia and cognitive problems. When I find one that works I will take it til I die just so I don't have to deal with the aftermath of whatever drugs do to your brain.
Fight fire with fire. Noradrenergic/dopaminergic drugs to counter effects of SSRIs.
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:04:40
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bulldog2 on June 20, 2010, at 8:10:17
> I am much older than you and have had years to try just about everything. I find most of the above to be vodoo science. You criticize psychiatry for their method well there is no method in alternative medicine. Let's do some double blind scientic testing to see if these things really work. All of the above is faith based. Obviously you are very young and don't have years of experience to see what works and doesn't. Now you tell us about being drug free for a certain finite length of time. Let us see in 20 years what the story. You lecture those who have been through the school of life.
Who did I lecture? Someone asked me for my experience. As for "voodoo science", well it isn't. Centella asiatica has a few dozen medical studies behind it, both in humans and rodents, and curcumin is probably the most well researched Eastern herb.
In fact, on a mg/kg basis, curcumin is more effective than imipramine (~20% more effective) for mood, and has been shown in doses between 10-140mg/kg to be neuroprotection against toxic insult, and at lower doses (10-20mg/kg p.o in rodents) significantly neurogenic, specifically with neurite outgrowth and neural progenitor proliferation; there are quite a few studies on curcumin's role in the brain. If this had been made by Wyeth, you'd be singing its praises, because the research behind indicates that it is a far more potent, cognitively enhancing as opposed to numbing, substance than SSRI's or Tryciclics.
Gotu kola has fewer studies, but has been shown to improve cognitive performance of both elderly people and young adults. In rodents, it has been shown to enhance dendrite arborization and branching by ~169% and 259% at 4ml/kg and 6ml/kg over a 6 week period.
Ashwagandha is also fairly well studied in rodents. I'm not sure what kind of medical evidence it has in humans, but the rodent studies are very impressive.
Meditation in at least one study has been shown to have a direct impact on cognitive performance. It was longitudinal study, I can dig it up if you can't find it. It has been shown to have essentially the same neurogenic benefit as cardiovascular exercise does, although it is probably a qualitatively different kind of benefit.
Acetyl L-Carnitine is also well enough studied to know that these effects exist. In vitro on hippocampal slices, the effect is unmistakable. In vivo, to my knowledge very little has been done on the subject, although I believe there are some animal studies.
Anyways, I'm sorry that you went through life without finding a solution, I truly am, but if you're going to make strong accusations, back them up with something. I couldn't possibly imagine that you'd be able to tell if your neurons were sprouting 2x as many dendrites. I just don't see that as possible. That's why I turn to studies to examine the effect. Personally I can tell you that turmeric, ashwagandha, and gotu kola make me feel balanced and healthy in a very rough time, and that since starting these 8 months ago, my memory and cognition seems better, especially with regards to working memory, which is better than it was prior to starting lamictal & other meds several years ago. I memorized 260 digits of pi in about 1.5 hours, or 150 in 30 minutes. That's more than I could have ever done before.
Like I said, if you don't believe this stuff works, why don't you take a look at the research behind it. Best of all, it is just food. These are all plants that are integrated into the cuisine of Asians, and they certainly don't consider them to be "voodoo". So I feel free of the bounds of our medicine, but mentally healthier than I was before integrating them into my diet.
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:11:09
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » bobman, posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 11:44:28
> bobman,
>
> Your post is very inspiring...I'm pretty worn down right now by a lifetime of stressors, but when I am able to reduce some of my enivornmental stressors, I hope my self-discipline returns so that I can follow your approach.
>
> About the tumeric - how to you take 1-2 tsp. a day? I bought a bag of tumeric powder from an organic retailer online (I had researched the properties of the herb and it sounds very healthful). When I make a curry, whether with chick peas, tomatoes, coconut milk, etc., I use only about 1/2 a tblsp. in the whole dish. How do you incorporate it into your daily diet? I thought of dissolving it in hot water to form a tea, but it is the orangish yellow type-and is almost like a yellow dye (doesn't it stain your teeth??). My other thought was mixing it with plain yogurt. Anyway, I'd appreciate your advice on this.
>
> Haven't you also considered psychotherapy in your routine? I found the older you get, the more mental health issues sort of weaken your brain's coping abilities. It's an antecdotal thought, and my psychiatrist noted this as well as a result of his 30 some years of practice.
>
> ThanksI have a therapist, and I've had therapists before. I certainly think they're safer, and occasionally more beneficial. Like with all forms of treatment, it helps if you believe that it can help.
As far as turmeric goes, I am not a cook, and often the food I make with turmeric doesn't taste great. What I do is make a turmeric/black pepper mix (maybe for every 20 teaspoons of tuermeric, 1 or 1/2 of black pepper), and take it on my tongue after I eat. Sometimes I make tea with it, and use maybe 1/3 of a teaspoon for a large pot (4-6 cups). It takes a while to notice any difference, but I can tell if I stop taking it for more than a few days,
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:16:51
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
> I have a question for the anti-med folks here & I ask it in all sincerity because I would like to know & I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I asked this on the social board, but nobody responded, so maybe no one is interested, but I'll try again here, since it is a question about medication.
>
> If you were diagnosed with lung or colon cancer & your oncologist told you that without treatment you had maybe a year to live, would you be willing to undergo chemotherapy, knowing, as your doctor would surely tell you, that the various drug "cocktails" used are toxic to your immune system and might not work or might leave you with permanent physical and mental deficits? And also knowing that the various combinations of drugs are often used in a trial and error manner to see which patient responds to which combination?
>
> I ask this, obviously, because I see an analogy between cancer drugs and psych drugs -- some are destructive for some people, some don't work, when used in combinations there is little clear clinical evidence on which to design the cocktail, etc. Still, using chemo & using psych drugs leads to remission in some patients.I think this is a stretch. The difference between cancer & its treatments, and mental illness, is that there is no empirical way of diagnosing a mental illness.
Here's a better comparison:
If you went into a doctor's office with a strong cough, enough so that you were coughing up blood, and the doctor decides, that based on your history of smoking and his observations, you have cancer, would you let him irradiate your lungs and pump you full of chemo?
If there was a diagnosable, biological root to my anxiety, and a corresponding treatment, I could evaluate the risks and benefits, and make a choice, much as I would do with cancer. Unfortunately nothing like this exists for mental illness, meaning that the medication you are prescribed is essentially faith-based medicine with a lot of side effects. That I wouldn't touch.
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 14:43:11
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:16:51
There are all sorts of empirical psychological tests for mental illness; some progress has also been made in determining which regions of the brain are affected, but something does not have to be "biological" to be real. And surely the biological affects our states of mind. Just drink a cup of coffee.
But, Bobman, if you don't believe there is a biological basis for mental illness, why take all those herbs and supplements -- aren't you trying to influence the biological system of your body by doing so?
And I do think the cancer analogy is at least a little helpful: the remission rates for some of the worst cancers are not much better than the statistics on remission of mental illness cited by people like Whitaker and other anti-psych folks.
Posted by Justherself54 on June 20, 2010, at 15:05:40
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » bobman, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 14:43:11
Can you or someone explain to me why this thread has been allowed to remain on the medication board? This board is supposed to be for support and education.
I do not feel supported nor educated by this thread. If I wanted to explore a different approach for my mood disorder, through spirituality, I would go to the faith board.
The same goes for the biological vs. whatever. At this point, I don't care where my illness stems from..I have it..it is real. I just want to talk to others on the medication board who identify with me.
Jeez Louise, this is all kinds of crazymaking! Bulldog is so mad he's going to accept a block. I don't want to see any babbler get blocked. Perhaps if this thread has been put where it belonged, on the social board, it wouldn't have escalated to the point where blocks are going to be handed out.
Frick sakes Dr. Bob. I hold you partly responsible for letting this get out of hand in the first place.
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 15:12:11
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » bobman, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 14:43:11
> There are all sorts of empirical psychological tests for mental illness; some progress has also been made in determining which regions of the brain are affected, but something does not have to be "biological" to be real. And surely the biological affects our states of mind. Just drink a cup of coffee.
>
> But, Bobman, if you don't believe there is a biological basis for mental illness, why take all those herbs and supplements -- aren't you trying to influence the biological system of your body by doing so?
>
> And I do think the cancer analogy is at least a little helpful: the remission rates for some of the worst cancers are not much better than the statistics on remission of mental illness cited by people like Whitaker and other anti-psych folks.It's a good point, why do I take them. Well I'm a great believer in the side effects that anti-epileptic medications have. Namely brain cell death. Non-enzymatic anticonvulsants are shown to inhibit glial proliferation, and lamotrigine is shown to greatly inhibit LTP, NMDAR signaling in response to excitation, and therefore should lead to reduced neuronal plasticity and neuronal atrophy as well.
It's not that I don't believe that biology plays a role, but rather that whatever role it plays is not being targeted by current pharmacological treatments. And how could they target it? These biological role in mental illness has not been elucidated, and the mechanisms by which most medications work has also not been fully elucidated.
For instance, did you know that fluoxetine increases levels of IGF-1? It is currently proposed that it increases neurogenesis by this method, and not by any increase in post-synaptic serotonin, which would make sense IGF-1 increases proliferation of many types of tissue.
The herbs that I take are shown to increase proliferation of neural stem cells, increase outgrowth of newborn neurons, and all of this is actually shown in vivo in rodents, with corresponding observational effects shown in humans, although the latter is not well funded.
For instance, I have a full assay of the genes that Gotu Kola up-regulates expression of.
FGF2, VEGF, EGF, TGF-B1 and a few other growth related genes are up-regulated between 1.6 and 1.7 times * control. That's probably why it works to dramatically enhance wound healing, but those factors also affect recovery from brain injury (shown through separate studies on ischemia), and should therefore improve recovery from insult by pharmacological drugs. There is similar research for curcumin and ashwagandha. Essentially reasons like these are why I take gotu kola, and curcumin.
As a side note, my body feels far healthier since starting to take them. I haven't changed anything else in life besides the addition of gotu kola and turmeric. I have more endurance, and far less fatigue. Of course any skeptic can attribute these results to some sort of somatiform or placebo, and I wouldn't be able to convince you of it besides to say that they absolutely work for me. I've used them long term, and will tell anyone who cares to listen that they work about as well as any pharmacological agent I've tried, but with a clean, non-toxic profile. Don't want to believe that it works? I'm fine with that.
Posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 19:22:12
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
> I have a question for the anti-med folks here & I ask it in all sincerity because I would like to know & I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I asked this on the social board, but nobody responded, so maybe no one is interested, but I'll try again here, since it is a question about medication.
>
> If you were diagnosed with lung or colon cancer & your oncologist told you that without treatment you had maybe a year to live, would you be willing to undergo chemotherapy, knowing, as your doctor would surely tell you, that the various drug "cocktails" used are toxic to your immune system and might not work or might leave you with permanent physical and mental deficits? And also knowing that the various combinations of drugs are often used in a trial and error manner to see which patient responds to which combination?
>
> I ask this, obviously, because I see an analogy between cancer drugs and psych drugs -- some are destructive for some people, some don't work, when used in combinations there is little clear clinical evidence on which to design the cocktail, etc. Still, using chemo & using psych drugs leads to remission in some patients.Hi Chujoe you raise a good point.
Lets just keep using cancer as the analogy.
I have been experiencing symptoms of a disease.
A doctor has diagnosed me with Cancer and given me some serious medications to treat my illness.10 years later after suffering terrible side effects from the medications for my cancer, I discover that my doctor was pretty much guessing about my cancer and that there is no evidence that I even have cancer apart from my own symptoms.
What is more, is that the medication they have been giving me seems to be causing troubles and maybe even making the cancer worse. At this stage I attempt to stop the medications only to discover that after 10 years of there use, they have so altered my brain structure that quitting them is next to impossible. I was never warned about this.
Is it possible that for those who had this cancer would have followed a much better path to recovery if the drugs wern't introduced.
The answer is yes and no. Some people I truly believe have had their lives ruined by psychiatry. Others that perhaps may have commited suicide without some sort of medication and here I guess you can say it's use is justified.
But how many have commited suicide because of psychiatry?I know that I have gotten myself into very agiatated states from psych meds.
If the meds are truly improving your quality of life then I think it is justified.
I know people exist in a state of med induced bliss. But I think they are few and far between (just going of ancedotal evidence here)
Most people seem to be endlessly searching for the cure, and when they find it, it only lasts a short period of time and they are back to the drawing board.Meds have worked for me, temporarily and each time I have slid back to my equilibrium. My brain seems to be able to compensate for the changes that the meds make.
So I am left with the side effects.
I hope that this helps you understand where I am from coming from a little bit.
Posted by SLS on June 20, 2010, at 19:59:31
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 19:22:12
> I hope that this helps you understand where I am from coming from a little bit.
I appreciate your motivations. I sincerely hope that you find a space that pleases you. If you can do that without exposing yourself to foreign substances, that would be a true blessing. It is also a blessing, though, that medical science endeavors to provide treatments for people who are not so lucky. I would not suffer at all if you were to live without drugs. However, I would suffer if someone were to make it a project to take them away from me.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 20:37:10
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 19:22:12
Huxley, my point was that many people willingly submit to cancer chemotherapy with even slimmer odds of recovery than many who take psych meds. This is an empirical fact. And even the doctors administering the drugs don't dispute their toxicity, whereas (though you will probably disagree) many doctors who prescribe psych meds honestly do not believe all the sensationalist and alarmist studies and reports claiming that psych drugs are both ineffective and dangerous. Does that mean they do not understand the risks? Perhaps some don't, but many do and just as with the oncologist they discuss these risks with their patients. But then I reject the broad-brush picture you and others here paint of "psychiatry" as populated by ignorant, unambitious, evil doctors in thrall to Big Pharma. My analogy to cancer was meant, among other things, to suggest that oncology and psychiatry use drugs in similar ways, but it is very rare to hear people raging against that medical specialty. Which suggests to me that the hatred of psychiatry is cultural, not medical, probably because it is rooted in a peculiarly American form of Puritanism that prefers to blame mental illness on moral failure and lack of character and which enforces these beliefs with an individualist ideology that tells people they must pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. It's a view I categorically reject.
As for the supposed exclusivity of this thread, no one specified that requirement at the start and as Scott suggests we're all likely to learn more if we hammer these things out in reasoned debate. Finally, I would note at least a stylistic asymmetry between the defenders of psych meds in this and related threads and those who oppose them: The defenders, by and large, understand that psych meds are not for everyone, are likely over-prescribed, have side effects that can be debilitating for some, but also work for some; whereas the anti-med camp makes unsupportable global claims about all of psychiatry and uses an arsenal of words and phrases that carry negative connotations. It also seems that the defenders of psych meds often take pains to distinguish between different kinds of drugs, to admit that Big Pharma is a problem, and to agree that some doctors are ill-informed; whereas a lot of the recent posts in this thread from the anti-med camp make no such fine distinctions, implying that those of us who take medications are either ignorant or deluded. We are neither: we have simply made different choices from you.
Posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 20:39:22
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
I don't consider myself an "anti-med person", but I really like this thread (thanks Huxley!). I also think this is the most appropriate place for the discussion.
Chujoe, in reference to the cancer scenerio you described, like Phillipa said, it's difficult to say w/o having had been in that specific situation. But I have just as good of an imagination as anyone else I suppose...
First, (probably after recovering from possible shock from learning of the diagnosis) I would compare the benefits and risks of getting treatment vs. not getting treatment. If I was 95 years old and had other medical problems, knowing I was going to die soon anyway, I might not wish to go through chemotherapy. What if I had no family to help me through it? Family issues would be a huge concern-what if my child, who traveled weekly for her dream job, had to give up s career to take me to all my appointments and checkups and tests? What is the probability of success after chemoteraphy, and projected lifespan for those who undergo the treatment successfully? If it is not successful, do I have a hospice option or will I end up in a shady nursing home left unattended much of time time, eating green jello? Do I have retirement savings or someone who will provide me with money to get the treatment; if not, am I willing to file bankruptcy or not pay the bills? If I don't pay my medical bills, will all, none, or just some of my doctors still treat me if I had no money to pay what Medicaid did not cover?
Quality of life would be an important factor. If I was going blind from macular degeneration and was in pain every day, maybe I would want to forgoe chemotherapy and die. Would I have to wear one of those bags for the rest of my life, unable to use a toilet? What if I had COPD (or another illness) and was highly susceptible to pneumonia-will I die sooner from chemotherapy destroying my immune system?
Is the cancer still localized, or spread throughout my body? If it had spread throughout my body, maybe I could experience a bit more life enjoyment during the last year of my life by foregoing chemotherapy and spending time with my family or traveling the world until I was no longer able to walk.
I'd have to get 2nd and 3rd opinions from other oncologists or specialists, and see if there are research trials or other treatment options available. Of course, the latest treatment options would be an option only if I could afford them-Medicare likely will only cover conventional treatments.
etc. etc. etc.
Even without further rambling, it becomes more apparent that the issue becomes less black and white and turns grey.
There are some notable differences if you look at a psychiatric scenerio - Many of us initially start medications at a young age...If I was 18, I probably would not ask all of these questions (was this before or after Al Gore invented the internet?) because I wouldn't have had years of medical experiences or life experiences to consider to assist me in decision making. I might be dependent on my parents who insist I take medications--maybe I have no choice at all. Worse, I probably would not be thinking clearly at the time. Or maybe I am trusting of authority figures since I am 18 and had not yet been burnt by a professional before?
What is my degree of depression? Moderate; severe? If my general practitioner noticed depression, I would likely be referred to a psychiatrist who would ask me a few questions then prescribe me an anti-depressant. The other treatment options available would not be discussed with me and I would not be prescribed me medical tests to rule out other things. I would also not be informed about most of the side effects. Everyone would ask, though, if I have a family history of mental illness.
etc. etc. etc.
I am not referring to the ideal-this was my experience with 5 psychiatrists. Having no health insurance for years at a time affected my treatment as well. People should be informed of all their options and likelihood of recovery with or without the medications. People should be assessed for psychological issues in case psychotherapy would be more appropriate and effective than medications. Unfortunately, it didn't happen this way for me and I regret it.
Of course, if the I was suicidal in this scenerio, the treatment decision would be more clear.
Posted by mrtook on June 20, 2010, at 21:02:17
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » chujoe, posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 20:39:22
I think one important consideration is that for quite a few people the placebo and nocebo effects constitute a significant portion of an individual's response to medication or supplements. (This is true even outside of psychiatry.) When people cast relatively unfounded aspersions about either it is not of much benefit.
Posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 22:38:20
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 17, 2010, at 22:25:19
"I went down the path of being medicated. While they improved out of sight, I went steadily downwards on a bell like curve. I had a relationship breakup 2 years ago. My mind simply seemed unable to deal with it and I was put
on several more drugs.And now if you met myself and my brothers you would see the difference in where we are at in our lives. I can tell you that there is a very marked difference in
- Cognative ability
- emotional stability
- empathy
- Social skills
- Physical health
- appearance
__________________Huxley,
Please don't beat yourself up too much over your decision to take drugs (although writing about it here might be helping to relieve guilt?). If it makes you feel any differently, my siblings and mother and father did not seek psych treatment and were and still are much worse off than I. Actually, my father died young from heart problems. Never worked through his crap. Maybe ADs would have helped him? He never sought medical care, but he really needed therapy to deal with the nightmare of a childhood he had. My mother is a different story-she is in denial and does not think she has psychological issues. Although she did not die young, sometimes I feel she is worse off than my dead father. If you only knew..
While you didn't say you were 100% sure if or how your life would be different, I sense that 'decision remorse'. I also think you can turn that around-things you are posting here might lead someone else to reconsider their choices and have a better outcome. In my view, it doesn't matter so much who is for or against meds-what matters is that individuals get individualized treatment according to their individual needs. The three i's of illness. It matters that people are educated about their choices.
I 'guilt' about it too...I wasn't thinking clearly at the time and didn't bother researching anything, too busy with responsibilities..so busy that I wouldn't have had much time anyway. I just trusted my doctors. I didn't start any meds until I was almost 30, had managed anxiety and dysthmia (and my defense mechanisms held up) for years without them. They worked inititally for one notable situation-on onset of PTSD-when I can truly say I needed a drug..then from time to time for anxiety.
I'd go off ADs-only to get severe anxiety attacks within a few weeks. Although I had anxiety since a young age...A benzo would have been appropriate for me during most of my psychiatric years after the onset, but instead, I was always given SSRIs which made me miserable. The anxiety wasn't daily. I was never told of the treatment options and did not research drugs. I never even knew the difference between a SSRI and a benzo. (I'm not saying there are no risks with benzos, but some people are better off w/o seratonin-targeting drugs and have no problems with addiction or tolerance.) Aside from that, when I was at my best, although med-free-despite having anxiety from time to time-when I'd go back to a Pdoc I was never advised to take vitamins B, magnesium and all the other stuff that helps prevent mental health decline when you are well enough to keep up with prevention techniques such as regular exercise.
It was a couple years ago, when after being med free for a while, that I went back to a PDoc to get meds for anxiety during a time of high-stress. He put me on Zoloft. It made me worse. At the 2 month return visit, still ill with side effects, I told him I could not function on the AD-needing 12 hours of sleep a day-falling asleep at my desk- missing work and classes..he said "what do you want me to do?" That is when I started doing my research. Still, it has taken me years to equip myself with enough information to determine the best course of treatment for me.
...and I'm mad as hell that only 1 of my former PDocs recommended psychotherapy...At least he did suggest it to me-but he had me see someone at his office who appeared to have more problems than I did..long story. Anyway, it was CBT. So I went to another who was referred to me-who also did CBT (I didn't even know therapy was 'called' anything at the time; didn't know there were different 'types' of therapy). I was ignorant-I just thought a therapist was someone you talk to about your problems... CBT made me worse and wasted money and precious time-prolonged my illness. So I guess I can say I am mad as hell at myself for not checking into the different types of therapy years ago.
So you see, I'm dealing with guilt too. It's difficult when you internalize anger. It took me a long time to say I was angry with PDocs for not telling me how my childhood issues may have led to mental illness, the different types of psychotherapy, and all the other stuff you learn on your own. Although with 10 minute appointments, how do you end up with appropriate care anyway?
Finally, I taught myself enough to realize a certain type of psychotherapy is what I needed. I am slowly getting better and taking less meds than before. It's healthy for me to talk about this. Although I consider myself to be procrastinating, I feel a little bit better.
I think its healthy for you to share your story here too. It's better than internalizing it all. I'm still working on that issue, and hope you are not so bad off in that regard.
Take care,
Violette
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 23:54:46
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » Huxley, posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 22:38:20
Mrtook,
I like your post a lot. There is a lot of evidence that correlates the magnitude of benefit a patient ascribes to his treatment depends on their confidence in their doctor and in the treatment to make them well. So casting aspersions, like you said, benefits no one, regardless of which side of the fence you sit on.
Also, violette, thanks for sharing your story. I'm really sorry about your parents. I watched my mom's twin spiral into depression and alcoholism, and it was a terrible sigh, to see someone in denial, so stupid and beaten. I never knew my father, but I know that he is alive, thank god.
Violette, huxley, here is a radio interview of Steven Morgan, he is someone who really inspires me : http://www.madnessradio.net/madness-radio-reinventing-bipolar-steven-morgan. He plainly speaks to the issue.
Posted by Huxley on June 21, 2010, at 1:33:38
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 3:14:49
> > Hi Bobman,
> >
> > Thanks for your post. I think we feel the same way about psychiatry however you have put it into words much better than I ever could.
> >
> > Can you please tell me your experiences and methods getting of the lactimal and cymbalta.
> >
> > I am on lactimal at the moment. I have tirated down to 100mg with little trouble from 400mg. Would I be expecting to run into trouble when I completly cut it out.
> >
> > Good to hear the mental side effects of lactimal are receeding. I currently can't remember a thing.
> >
> > Also interested how you went about getting of the SSRI/NI. Did you wean off it?
>
> Hey Huxley,
>
> Well, first of all, good luck, be strong man. With regards to lamictal taper, honestly I can barely remember it, I still have little memory of my lamictal days (memory is coming back though). I know for a fact that I was somewhere ~50mg when I dropped. If I remember correctly, I had 100mg pink tablets which have center-line scoring, so 50mg is easy, and beyond that you just bite off pieces or use a cutter. I'd say I probably went down to ~25mg before I dropped it completely, but I'd recommend you taper as low as you have patience for. I'd spend 2 months going from 100mg to 0, no less. Maybe take 3, but honestly eventually you just get so impatient. That happened for me afterI had been chewing off pieces off the 25mg tab for a month.
>
> My memory on lamictal was also absolutely horrible. Couldn't hold on to a thought. I'm still so mad I took the stuff.
>
> On belief in recovery:
>
> You absolutely need it. If anyone tells you spirit, faith, and desire don't matter, run. This was harder on me than quitting a 5 year 2 pack a day habit cold turkey, and without a strong image of who I want to be (I'm still in school, somewhat young), I would absolutely not have made the progress that I have. Meditation is also something I very very highly recommend. Find a local center, you can do group meditation for free. Also, if you can, boxing helps a lot. I boxed muay thai at an MMA gym and that helped tremendously, and gets you into incredible shape, especially if you gear for amateur (or pro!) fights.
>
> Cymbalta I tapered by opening the capsule and taking the little spheres directly. I would start of with say 75% of the spheres, and drop eventually to taking only 5 or so. I would recommend getting the lowest dose full pill, and once you've adjusted to that dose, going to the spheres. I'd spend a month tapering after you adjust to the lower dose.
>
> Next post is on some recommendations for substances that augmented my recovery. Good luck my friend.
>Hey Bobman,
The common theme for people
withdrawing from meds is that it is extremly hard.
I really had no idea it was going to be this hard. Thanks for the tips, always good to hear from someone who has successfully done it.
Posted by Hombre on June 21, 2010, at 2:10:29
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 21, 2010, at 1:33:38
Actually, bobman, as you are probably aware, your Muay Thai training is just as likely to have spurred neurogenesis as the herbs. Vigorous aerobic exercise has been shown to increase the various nerve-growing factors you mentioned, even in rodents that have been exposed to too much alcohol as fetuses. Feti? Feta? No, that's a cheese. Point being that exercise can reverse damage done early on.
There are even some studies done at the University of Illinois that have shown growth in the prefrontal cortex, but I'm not sure if these results have been reproduced yet. Definitely growth in the hippocampus. Encouraging.
I just thought I'd bring it up because you only mentioned it in passing, but actually there is probably more evidence sitting behind the power of exercise to regrow brain cells than eating turmeric or gotu kola. The fact that you were also learning somewhat complex movements and adapting to the stress of people throwing elbows and roundhouse kicks at you --> a recipe for recovery.
Check out the book "Spark" for some encouraging new ideas about the power of exercise to rebuild a broken brain.
Posted by bobman on June 21, 2010, at 11:12:12
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Hombre on June 21, 2010, at 2:10:29
> Actually, bobman, as you are probably aware, your Muay Thai training is just as likely to have spurred neurogenesis as the herbs. Vigorous aerobic exercise has been shown to increase the various nerve-growing factors you mentioned, even in rodents that have been exposed to too much alcohol as fetuses. Feti? Feta? No, that's a cheese. Point being that exercise can reverse damage done early on.
>
> There are even some studies done at the University of Illinois that have shown growth in the prefrontal cortex, but I'm not sure if these results have been reproduced yet. Definitely growth in the hippocampus. Encouraging.
>
> I just thought I'd bring it up because you only mentioned it in passing, but actually there is probably more evidence sitting behind the power of exercise to regrow brain cells than eating turmeric or gotu kola. The fact that you were also learning somewhat complex movements and adapting to the stress of people throwing elbows and roundhouse kicks at you --> a recipe for recovery.
>
> Check out the book "Spark" for some encouraging new ideas about the power of exercise to rebuild a broken brain.Cool man, thanks for the ideas. Yeah, I was aware of the general consensus on neurogenesis and recovery. In some of the studies that I've read, and I believe it was one on curcumin, the significant effect demonstrated was said to be equal to that from exercise. Which makes me wonder if the effects are additive/independent, or whether both exercise and the nerogenic effect of some exogenous substances achieve increase via the same pathways, and are therefore mutually exclusive. I'd like to think that the effect is additive of course.
As far as I know, pretty much everything that increases brain levels of glutathione and superoxide dismutase is shown to be "neurogenic", although that relationship is certainly due at least in part to the survival of more neurites & mature neurons, as opposed to an increase in neural stem cell proliferation or increased differentiation (afaik, exercise increases the latter, possibly proliferation as well?). It's actually interesting, because neural stem cells apparently survive upwards of a year, so although neural stem cells in the brain are produced at a fairly low rate, they have the life span to migrate to every region (demonstrated to be produced in the pre-frontal cortex ventricles as well dendate gyrus), and can therefore contribute a large amount of material to any damaged area. Scar tissue is probably the largest impedance to cognitive recovery, and you would only have that (as far as I know) from TBI, and it doesn't seem unlikely that some substances could dissolve scars, both endogenous and exogenous. Exercise probably increases the catabolism of scars. I know for instance, of one substance that has been demonstrated to dissolve insoluble amyloid beta plaques.
Posted by bobman on June 21, 2010, at 11:49:03
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 21, 2010, at 1:33:38
> > > Hi Bobman,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your post. I think we feel the same way about psychiatry however you have put it into words much better than I ever could.
> > >
> > > Can you please tell me your experiences and methods getting of the lactimal and cymbalta.
> > >
> > > I am on lactimal at the moment. I have tirated down to 100mg with little trouble from 400mg. Would I be expecting to run into trouble when I completly cut it out.
> > >
> > > Good to hear the mental side effects of lactimal are receeding. I currently can't remember a thing.
> > >
> > > Also interested how you went about getting of the SSRI/NI. Did you wean off it?
> >
> > Hey Huxley,
> >
> > Well, first of all, good luck, be strong man. With regards to lamictal taper, honestly I can barely remember it, I still have little memory of my lamictal days (memory is coming back though). I know for a fact that I was somewhere ~50mg when I dropped. If I remember correctly, I had 100mg pink tablets which have center-line scoring, so 50mg is easy, and beyond that you just bite off pieces or use a cutter. I'd say I probably went down to ~25mg before I dropped it completely, but I'd recommend you taper as low as you have patience for. I'd spend 2 months going from 100mg to 0, no less. Maybe take 3, but honestly eventually you just get so impatient. That happened for me afterI had been chewing off pieces off the 25mg tab for a month.
> >
> > My memory on lamictal was also absolutely horrible. Couldn't hold on to a thought. I'm still so mad I took the stuff.
> >
> > On belief in recovery:
> >
> > You absolutely need it. If anyone tells you spirit, faith, and desire don't matter, run. This was harder on me than quitting a 5 year 2 pack a day habit cold turkey, and without a strong image of who I want to be (I'm still in school, somewhat young), I would absolutely not have made the progress that I have. Meditation is also something I very very highly recommend. Find a local center, you can do group meditation for free. Also, if you can, boxing helps a lot. I boxed muay thai at an MMA gym and that helped tremendously, and gets you into incredible shape, especially if you gear for amateur (or pro!) fights.
> >
> > Cymbalta I tapered by opening the capsule and taking the little spheres directly. I would start of with say 75% of the spheres, and drop eventually to taking only 5 or so. I would recommend getting the lowest dose full pill, and once you've adjusted to that dose, going to the spheres. I'd spend a month tapering after you adjust to the lower dose.
> >
> > Next post is on some recommendations for substances that augmented my recovery. Good luck my friend.
> >
>
> Hey Bobman,
> The common theme for people
> withdrawing from meds is that it is extremly hard.
> I really had no idea it was going to be this hard. Thanks for the tips, always good to hear from someone who has successfully done it.
>Hey Huxley,
It might not be that hard for you. Don't let my story get to your head. I know of others who have quit similar drugs without much issue. It might have had something to do with me having a 1 month cessation in the middle of therapy, which was the command of my 2nd pdoc, done to prep me for transition to deprenyl (he never prescribed it, and recommend after a clean month to restart lamictal at 100mg, and gave me cymbalta). I got worse after that I think, so maybe that made me hypersensitive to it.
Anyways, even if you have it harder, recovery is still definitely possible. I've read stories where people who had been on far more toxic cocktails (combinations of neuroleptics, atypicals, aed's & benzodiazepene's, and usually a dnri or snri), for many more years and recovered just fine. There is no reason to believe lamictal is significantly neurotoxic at the dose we're prescribed (serum levels on the order of 1-4 micromole/ml, whereas neurotoxic effects occur at maybe 10-50 times that in rodents). In fact, lamictal actually is slightly neurogenic, although atrophic to glial cells. It is mostly a question of learning how to think again, recovering old connections & memories, and transitioning into a life style that is conduit to mental & physical health.
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