![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 88. Go back in thread:
Posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 14:10:53
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Huxley, posted by 49er on June 16, 2010, at 17:22:17
That's great news, 49!
I didn't realize how important tapering can be, and it seems that antecdotal experiences are the proof (or is there research too?)
I quit medications from time to time, ranging from a few months to a year+, but then go back to them. When i start taking them again, i usually quit abruptly due to adverse side effects....wonder if i gave myself 'brain damage' from doing so. So-do you think tapering is key to being med-free? I have done without them most of my life and do not wish to take them due to side effects and long-term/unknown adverse effects.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Posted by 49er on June 17, 2010, at 14:55:39
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » 49er, posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 14:10:53
> That's great news, 49!
>
> I didn't realize how important tapering can be, and it seems that antecdotal experiences are the proof (or is there research too?)
>
> I quit medications from time to time, ranging from a few months to a year+, but then go back to them. When i start taking them again, i usually quit abruptly due to adverse side effects....wonder if i gave myself 'brain damage' from doing so. So-do you think tapering is key to being med-free? I have done without them most of my life and do not wish to take them due to side effects and long-term/unknown adverse effects.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience!Hi Violet,
Thanks!
I don't think you give yourself brain damage but it certainly makes things alot tougher, not question.
I definitely think that tapering slowly is the key as your brain needs time to adjust to having less of the med.
The paxil progress boards, http://www.paxilprogress.org is a great source of support. That is where I learned to taper very slowly.
Unfortunately, there is little research on this. Alot of doctors still go by the drug company schedule which is way to fast in my opinion.
Feel free to babble mail me if you want to talk further.
49er
Posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 16:41:43
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » violette, posted by 49er on June 17, 2010, at 14:55:39
Hey 49er (hopefully at least 49 more years of wellness!).
Thanks for the link and babblemail offer-I will likely take you up on it when I get the motivation to delve into those questions further.
:)
Posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 18:59:55
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
Huxley,
That was a pretty cool post you wrote.
"Violette no offence taken at all, we all feel passionatly about this issue, it is very central to our lives."
Also-thanks for that comment-my intentions were quite the opposite of how the words could have been perceived. Sometimes I'm careful with wording, other times not. But I truly do welcome your opinion. Besides, I'd be bored to death if everyone thought 'the same'! (and wouldn't even be interested in reading the posts on this forum if that were the case)
I am interested in your opinions/ideas/ conclusions and do want you to encourage you to continue expressing them.
"They knew that some APs caused diabetes among other serious health problems and chose to withold that from the public and still push the drug onto them."
Hopefully Stephen Colbert will read this, and add a new idea to his Wheel to Solve the BP Crisis--stuff the hole with the world's supply of anti-psychotics. The oil will 'gain weight', then solidfy and stop flowing!
Only a joke, of course people can't live w/o them...
Posted by Huxley on June 17, 2010, at 22:25:19
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » Huxley, posted by violette on June 17, 2010, at 18:59:55
> Huxley,
>
> That was a pretty cool post you wrote.
>
> "Violette no offence taken at all, we all feel passionatly about this issue, it is very central to our lives."
>
> Also-thanks for that comment-my intentions were quite the opposite of how the words could have been perceived. Sometimes I'm careful with wording, other times not. But I truly do welcome your opinion. Besides, I'd be bored to death if everyone thought 'the same'! (and wouldn't even be interested in reading the posts on this forum if that were the case)
>
> I am interested in your opinions/ideas/ conclusions and do want you to encourage you to continue expressing them.
>
> "They knew that some APs caused diabetes among other serious health problems and chose to withold that from the public and still push the drug onto them."
>
> Hopefully Stephen Colbert will read this, and add a new idea to his Wheel to Solve the BP Crisis--stuff the hole with the world's supply of anti-psychotics. The oil will 'gain weight', then solidfy and stop flowing!
>
> Only a joke, of course people can't live w/o them...Hey Violette
Thanks, Dont worry about the wording, pretty easy to misunderstand someones meaning on an internet forum.
lol at putting zyprexa in the hole to stop the oil. I think you might be on to something there :)
I am not 100% anti psychiatry, I appreciate the effort that they are making to solve problems which ruin lives. I just feel they are a little bit trigger happy putting people
on psychiatric medications not fully knowing what they are doing when they are obviously very seriously effecting peoples lives. And also the fact that they are lying to people
when putting them on these medications.When serious adverse affects are reported they rubbish us and deny it is even happening. They took a good ten years to finally admit that there was a SSRI withdrawal syndrome.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident" ~ Arthur Schopenhauer
Its a nice quote but obviously something needs to be the truth to get to the third stage.
I am from a family of 5 children. We are very close and I discuss my mental health with them.My 2 brothers suffered from similar anxiety and depression to me in there youth. I went down the path of getting medicated for it because I wanted a better quality of life. They both went on an AD for
a short period of time but discontinued them, im not sure why.My brothers grew out of their awkward teens, and grew into very successful confident content adults. They are still prone to anxiety and small bouts of depression which seems to be a biological factor but it could
be a an environmental thing as we grew up with the same experiences.I went down the path of being medicated. While they improved out of sight, I went steadily downwards on a bell like curve. I had a relationship breakup 2 years ago. My mind simply seemed unable to deal with it and I was put
on several more drugs.And now if you met myself and my brothers you would see the difference in where we are at in our lives.
I can tell you that there is a very marked difference in- Cognative ability
- emotional stability
- empathy
- Social skills
- Physical health
- appearance ( I look 5 years older than my older brother who is 4 years older than me)
So maybe I lucked out and I got the faulty wiring from my parents or maybe it is a direct example of the effect that psychiatric medication has on someones life.Where would I have been if I never took that pill?
Sadly, with us having only one brain, It's impossible to know the answer to that.
This is why I can relate to Robert Whitikers theories, because me and my brothers are a living case study for him.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 18, 2010, at 0:36:27
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bulldog2 on June 17, 2010, at 12:46:11
> I think there is a lot of evidence that there is a biological basis for depression and other mental illness.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding the basis for depression to another thread. Please feel free to continue this discussion there. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100615/msgs/951378.html
That'll be considered a new thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by SLS on June 16, 2010, at 11:55:43
> > What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> > If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
>
> You may want to do some more reading.
>
> http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=depression+brain+changes&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=depression+brain&gs_rfai=Csmb8IQAZTLO0MIK_tge8lqCwCgAAAKoEBU_Q1PH7&fp=610e7dd948e54cca
>
>
> - Scott
What you posted is nonsense. It has been exhaustively shown that there is no causative relation between neurotransmitter levels and mental illness, depression included. The studies I'm referencing are mostly competing studies on AD's, antipsychotics, and anticonvulsants. The information on this subject isn't vague; neurotransmitter variations aren't the cause of mental illness. Drugs of completely opposite mechanisms can cause the same relief of depression. For instance, serotonin re-uptake inhibitors and serotonin antagonists both relieve depression. Glutamate release inhibitors (decrease frequency of NMDAR evoked voltage gated currents), like lamictal, and glycine agonists (increase frequency of NMDAR voltage gated signalling) both show benefits for conditions like OCD.
Posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:12
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
By the way, I'm also rejecting meds. It has been very very difficult to come off my lamictal + cymbalta combo. Lamictal I used for nearly 2 years, at dosages between 25mg and 275mg (averaged about 175mg for the first year, and about 75mg for the last 6-8 months, don't remember exactly).
I'm 24, and I've been clean from any pharmaceutical since February 14 2009. In response to a preceding post, I make a distinction between pharmaceutical psychotropics, and pscyhotropic substance from the earth. Yes, foods affect the psyche, but they aren't backed by thousands of years of safety testing. Herbs that our predecessors evolved alongside and used for sustenance I trust to restore me. Novel synthetic substances are flat out devastating on our bodies, as evidenced by the huge list of side effects attached to every psychotropic medication. It's not about trying to exist without ingesting anything, it's about using real solutions to live fully.
I now eat/make tea with gotu kola whole herb (4-9g/day), eat alleppe turmeric (~4-6g/day), lots of spinach, fish, broccoli. Other than that I study very hard, do my best to work out, although that has been difficult as I had complicated bilateral shoulder surgeries 9 months ago. I've reforged my relationship with my mother, and I go to school at a top 30 university full time. I worked before the injuries, but haven't since the surgeries. 2 months after I turned 18 I graduated from the #1 boarding school in the world. I had a bright future. Since I started psychotropic medications I have struggled; and I've lost a few years of my life.
To the OP, I also used AA to help my recovery, going to meetings for several months. I went through step 4 of the handbook(where you make amends with those you hurt), leaving the program shortly after because I didn't have a substance-addictive personality, and was beginning to feel out of place. Currently I'm looking at some mental-recovery, AA-like programs, though I haven't really done much about that recently. I spend most of my free time either reading or meditating (I meditated at a Vasrayana meditation center for 4 months before the surgeries, and learned a bit about it there), and figuring out what I'm going to do from here on. I read my high school's monthly alum journal, and see my friends in Harvard graduate programs, serving overseas, working as some of the highest-level 23-24 year old execs at Forbes 100 companies, and joining Oxford as Rhodes scholars. I'm just now regaining my mind enough to think about going into a more serious university major (I'm in business currently, want to go into chemistry and neuromedicine or genetics).
I know not everyone will agree with that view, but I've been through the western medical system, and the solutions it provides are clearly market-opportunity driven. Otherwise I couldn't imagine a justification for administering a medication to correct a neurotransmitter imbalance which is never tested for. Psychiartrists do not in practice use the scientific method in their treatment protocols. Psychiatry is clearly an observational medicine, with no falsifiable hypothesis, not unlike religion-based medicine. It is however, more dangerous, because in melding jargon backed by industry influenced studies, it carries a sway over people that today religion cannot. In fact, the blind faith people have in science is reminiscent of religious zealots, for both follow the word of an authority backed by assurances of truth. Very few mental patients have the capacity to understand the medical studies their treatment is based on. I've spent enough time reading studies on m.i treatments (armed with only 1 year of biomed eng. admittedly) to understand that they are, at best, shots in the dark with buckshot.
Sorry for the long post, it's just been hard to be "mentally-interesting" while having to deal with all sorts of cognitive issues that emerged after ~ 6 months of lamictal, still present (though receding) today. If you've read this entire post, thank you, if not, please take a few minutes if you can.
Posted by SLS on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:42
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
> > > What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> > > If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
> >
> > You may want to do some more reading.
> >
> > http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=depression+brain+changes&aq=8&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=depression+brain&gs_rfai=Csmb8IQAZTLO0MIK_tge8lqCwCgAAAKoEBU_Q1PH7&fp=610e7dd948e54cca
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> What you posted is nonsense.I simply posted a Google search.
> The information on this subject isn't vague; neurotransmitter variations aren't the cause of mental illness.
Then, what is?
- Scott
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 0:52:38
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » bobman, posted by SLS on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:42
There is no good bio-mechanical answer if that's what you're looking for. Neurology is considered the frontier of medicine for a good reason. It's at the six-shooter/malaria blankets/paul bunion stage.
Posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 1:40:35
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 0:52:38
Hi Bobman,
Thanks for your post. I think we feel the same way about psychiatry however you have put it into words much better than I ever could.
Can you please tell me your experiences and methods getting of the lactimal and cymbalta.
I am on lactimal at the moment. I have tirated down to 100mg with little trouble from 400mg. Would I be expecting to run into trouble when I completly cut it out.
Good to hear the mental side effects of lactimal are receeding. I currently can't remember a thing.
Also interested how you went about getting of the SSRI/NI. Did you wean off it?
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 20, 2010, at 2:21:42
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » SLS, posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 19:36:08
> What you posted is nonsense.
It's fine to reject meds on this thread, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 3:14:49
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 20, 2010, at 1:40:35
> Hi Bobman,
>
> Thanks for your post. I think we feel the same way about psychiatry however you have put it into words much better than I ever could.
>
> Can you please tell me your experiences and methods getting of the lactimal and cymbalta.
>
> I am on lactimal at the moment. I have tirated down to 100mg with little trouble from 400mg. Would I be expecting to run into trouble when I completly cut it out.
>
> Good to hear the mental side effects of lactimal are receeding. I currently can't remember a thing.
>
> Also interested how you went about getting of the SSRI/NI. Did you wean off it?Hey Huxley,
Well, first of all, good luck, be strong man. With regards to lamictal taper, honestly I can barely remember it, I still have little memory of my lamictal days (memory is coming back though). I know for a fact that I was somewhere ~50mg when I dropped. If I remember correctly, I had 100mg pink tablets which have center-line scoring, so 50mg is easy, and beyond that you just bite off pieces or use a cutter. I'd say I probably went down to ~25mg before I dropped it completely, but I'd recommend you taper as low as you have patience for. I'd spend 2 months going from 100mg to 0, no less. Maybe take 3, but honestly eventually you just get so impatient. That happened for me afterI had been chewing off pieces off the 25mg tab for a month.
My memory on lamictal was also absolutely horrible. Couldn't hold on to a thought. I'm still so mad I took the stuff.
On belief in recovery:
You absolutely need it. If anyone tells you spirit, faith, and desire don't matter, run. This was harder on me than quitting a 5 year 2 pack a day habit cold turkey, and without a strong image of who I want to be (I'm still in school, somewhat young), I would absolutely not have made the progress that I have. Meditation is also something I very very highly recommend. Find a local center, you can do group meditation for free. Also, if you can, boxing helps a lot. I boxed muay thai at an MMA gym and that helped tremendously, and gets you into incredible shape, especially if you gear for amateur (or pro!) fights.
Cymbalta I tapered by opening the capsule and taking the little spheres directly. I would start of with say 75% of the spheres, and drop eventually to taking only 5 or so. I would recommend getting the lowest dose full pill, and once you've adjusted to that dose, going to the spheres. I'd spend a month tapering after you adjust to the lower dose.
Next post is on some recommendations for substances that augmented my recovery. Good luck my friend.
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 3:28:32
In reply to Re: please be civil » bobman, posted by Dr. Bob on June 20, 2010, at 2:21:42
Recovery has not been linear, and overall slower than I expected.
Amino acids & related:
At month 7 I discovered SAM-e, and ingesting that gave me the first cognitive/memory jump forward. I made huge progress within a few days of starting that (at low dose too...400mg first day, 200mg 2nd, and 100mg/day after that...gradually back up to 400/day within a few months). I haven't taken SAM-e for 3 months, and the improvements are here to stay. PS SAM-e is naturally produced by your body, so I consider it ok for recovery purposes, especially since it increases polyamine & monoamine synthesis (and therefore neurotransmitter synthesis btw) which was shut down by lamictal (partially by extracellular glutamate inhibition, but mainly because it reduces serum levels of methyl-tetrahydrofolate reductase, which is an enzyme necessary for the reduction of folate to the final, central nervous system relevant version of folate (5-methyl-tetrahydrofolate).Nootropics:
I wouldn't mess with any of the stronger stuff, for fear of psychological addiction (meaning piracetam and aniracetam).I'd recommend taking Acetyl-l-carnitine (ALCAR). ALCAR has very promising studies on its effects on neurite outgrowth in the presence of BDNF (BDNF is always present in the brain, is basically something that activates the growing function of your brain...neurites are baby neurons...if they are not able to connect to a neighboring neuron, they die, so anything that enhances neurite outgrowth is very good)
Herbs:
Research Ayurveda, namely medhva rasayana.I would recommend whole herb gotu kola and turmeric, organic from Frontier Coop or another high quality source. I eat 1-2 teaspoons/day of turmeric (this one is ~5% curcumin) and 4-9 grams of gotu kola. I would also recommend a good ashwagandha extract (NOW Ashwagandha is cGMP certified, recommended). All of these increase neurogenesis dramatically in animal studies, and are demonstrated to be neuroactive in humans. Curcumin is neurogenic only at a low dose, and so I wouldn't take an extract. The whole herb also has much higher bioavailability of curcumin, and provides enough curcumin (1-2 teaspoons aka 4-8grams of Alleppey turmeric is ~200-400mg curcumin). Ashwagandha I'd recommend an extract (NOW Ashwagandha is the best I've found). None of these herbs make you feel like you're taking a drug. And you are not. I would recommend you incorporate the gotu kola and turmeric into your diet, and after a time switch to whole herb ashwagandha and use it in tea.
Finally remember that until a circuit is restored there is no signal, and so you will not experience any change until the connection is melded. Taking the right herbs & nootropics will ensure that nerve regeneration is dramatically sped up, but regardless of how you approach your recovery, your experience of recovery will be non linear.
Pm me if you have any questions. I've done a few thousand hours of research on neurology, the systems that lamictal affects, neuronal plasticity in response to "soft" sources (like experience, meditation, emotional states), and "hard" sources, like pharmaceuticals, nootropics, & herbal psychoactive substances. There is very little that indicates that a person cannot recover fully. People say the brain is very fragile. This is logically implausible. The brain is the single most important organ in the body, and by far the most exposed. If it were fragile, we'd all be idiots by 25.
Posted by Conundrum on June 20, 2010, at 8:02:07
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
Let's please keep this thread "anti-med." Thank you.
Posted by bulldog2 on June 20, 2010, at 8:10:17
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 19, 2010, at 20:35:12
> By the way, I'm also rejecting meds. It has been very very difficult to come off my lamictal + cymbalta combo. Lamictal I used for nearly 2 years, at dosages between 25mg and 275mg (averaged about 175mg for the first year, and about 75mg for the last 6-8 months, don't remember exactly).
>
> I'm 24, and I've been clean from any pharmaceutical since February 14 2009. In response to a preceding post, I make a distinction between pharmaceutical psychotropics, and pscyhotropic substance from the earth. Yes, foods affect the psyche, but they aren't backed by thousands of years of safety testing. Herbs that our predecessors evolved alongside and used for sustenance I trust to restore me. Novel synthetic substances are flat out devastating on our bodies, as evidenced by the huge list of side effects attached to every psychotropic medication. It's not about trying to exist without ingesting anything, it's about using real solutions to live fully.
>
> I now eat/make tea with gotu kola whole herb (4-9g/day), eat alleppe turmeric (~4-6g/day), lots of spinach, fish, broccoli. Other than that I study very hard, do my best to work out, although that has been difficult as I had complicated bilateral shoulder surgeries 9 months ago. I've reforged my relationship with my mother, and I go to school at a top 30 university full time. I worked before the injuries, but haven't since the surgeries. 2 months after I turned 18 I graduated from the #1 boarding school in the world. I had a bright future. Since I started psychotropic medications I have struggled; and I've lost a few years of my life.
>
> To the OP, I also used AA to help my recovery, going to meetings for several months. I went through step 4 of the handbook(where you make amends with those you hurt), leaving the program shortly after because I didn't have a substance-addictive personality, and was beginning to feel out of place. Currently I'm looking at some mental-recovery, AA-like programs, though I haven't really done much about that recently. I spend most of my free time either reading or meditating (I meditated at a Vasrayana meditation center for 4 months before the surgeries, and learned a bit about it there), and figuring out what I'm going to do from here on. I read my high school's monthly alum journal, and see my friends in Harvard graduate programs, serving overseas, working as some of the highest-level 23-24 year old execs at Forbes 100 companies, and joining Oxford as Rhodes scholars. I'm just now regaining my mind enough to think about going into a more serious university major (I'm in business currently, want to go into chemistry and neuromedicine or genetics).
>
>
>
> I know not everyone will agree with that view, but I've been through the western medical system, and the solutions it provides are clearly market-opportunity driven. Otherwise I couldn't imagine a justification for administering a medication to correct a neurotransmitter imbalance which is never tested for. Psychiartrists do not in practice use the scientific method in their treatment protocols. Psychiatry is clearly an observational medicine, with no falsifiable hypothesis, not unlike religion-based medicine. It is however, more dangerous, because in melding jargon backed by industry influenced studies, it carries a sway over people that today religion cannot. In fact, the blind faith people have in science is reminiscent of religious zealots, for both follow the word of an authority backed by assurances of truth. Very few mental patients have the capacity to understand the medical studies their treatment is based on. I've spent enough time reading studies on m.i treatments (armed with only 1 year of biomed eng. admittedly) to understand that they are, at best, shots in the dark with buckshot.
>
> Sorry for the long post, it's just been hard to be "mentally-interesting" while having to deal with all sorts of cognitive issues that emerged after ~ 6 months of lamictal, still present (though receding) today. If you've read this entire post, thank you, if not, please take a few minutes if you can.I am much older than you and have had years to try just about everything. I find most of the above to be vodoo science. You criticize psychiatry for their method well there is no method in alternative medicine. Let's do some double blind scientic testing to see if these things really work. All of the above is faith based. Obviously you are very young and don't have years of experience to see what works and doesn't. Now you tell us about being drug free for a certain finite length of time. Let us see in 20 years what the story. You lecture those who have been through the school of life.
Posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 11:44:28
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 3:14:49
bobman,
Your post is very inspiring...I'm pretty worn down right now by a lifetime of stressors, but when I am able to reduce some of my enivornmental stressors, I hope my self-discipline returns so that I can follow your approach.
About the tumeric - how to you take 1-2 tsp. a day? I bought a bag of tumeric powder from an organic retailer online (I had researched the properties of the herb and it sounds very healthful). When I make a curry, whether with chick peas, tomatoes, coconut milk, etc., I use only about 1/2 a tblsp. in the whole dish. How do you incorporate it into your daily diet? I thought of dissolving it in hot water to form a tea, but it is the orangish yellow type-and is almost like a yellow dye (doesn't it stain your teeth??). My other thought was mixing it with plain yogurt. Anyway, I'd appreciate your advice on this.
Haven't you also considered psychotherapy in your routine? I found the older you get, the more mental health issues sort of weaken your brain's coping abilities. It's an antecdotal thought, and my psychiatrist noted this as well as a result of his 30 some years of practice.
Thanks
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Conundrum on June 20, 2010, at 8:02:07
I have a question for the anti-med folks here & I ask it in all sincerity because I would like to know & I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I asked this on the social board, but nobody responded, so maybe no one is interested, but I'll try again here, since it is a question about medication.
If you were diagnosed with lung or colon cancer & your oncologist told you that without treatment you had maybe a year to live, would you be willing to undergo chemotherapy, knowing, as your doctor would surely tell you, that the various drug "cocktails" used are toxic to your immune system and might not work or might leave you with permanent physical and mental deficits? And also knowing that the various combinations of drugs are often used in a trial and error manner to see which patient responds to which combination?
I ask this, obviously, because I see an analogy between cancer drugs and psych drugs -- some are destructive for some people, some don't work, when used in combinations there is little clear clinical evidence on which to design the cocktail, etc. Still, using chemo & using psych drugs leads to remission in some patients.
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2010, at 13:04:21
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
I don't feel you can answer the chemo question as I've always said no but until faced with that decision you won't know. Phillipa
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 13:46:09
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » chujoe, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2010, at 13:04:21
P- Granted, it's a hypothetical question, but such questions can be useful in clarifying one's thinking, I believe. And we do know -- and you as a nurse certainly know -- that many cancer patients weigh the risks and benefits and then decide to have chemo and that there is not a movement that discourages them from doing so or disparages their choice. Quite the opposite, in fact: such people are often referred to as "strong" or "courageous," etc. So I want to know what the difference is.
Posted by Conundrum on June 20, 2010, at 13:53:32
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
Well since being on prozac left me with anhedonia, memory problems, sexual dysfunction, and for awhile fatigue. Mind you I'm not on it and still have the first 3 problems and never had them before. I have to say "No" If i knew this then I wouldn't have taken it. In some previous posts I've mentioned that after everything else such as diet, medication, exercise failed to return me to baseline, I'm trying to fight fire with fire.
Now I realize this thread is kind of demoralizing. So I will refrain from going on about this since my situation is abnormal. I mainly came here for info on drugs that can help or reverse anhedonia and cognitive problems. When I find one that works I will take it til I die just so I don't have to deal with the aftermath of whatever drugs do to your brain.
Fight fire with fire. Noradrenergic/dopaminergic drugs to counter effects of SSRIs.
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:04:40
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by bulldog2 on June 20, 2010, at 8:10:17
> I am much older than you and have had years to try just about everything. I find most of the above to be vodoo science. You criticize psychiatry for their method well there is no method in alternative medicine. Let's do some double blind scientic testing to see if these things really work. All of the above is faith based. Obviously you are very young and don't have years of experience to see what works and doesn't. Now you tell us about being drug free for a certain finite length of time. Let us see in 20 years what the story. You lecture those who have been through the school of life.
Who did I lecture? Someone asked me for my experience. As for "voodoo science", well it isn't. Centella asiatica has a few dozen medical studies behind it, both in humans and rodents, and curcumin is probably the most well researched Eastern herb.
In fact, on a mg/kg basis, curcumin is more effective than imipramine (~20% more effective) for mood, and has been shown in doses between 10-140mg/kg to be neuroprotection against toxic insult, and at lower doses (10-20mg/kg p.o in rodents) significantly neurogenic, specifically with neurite outgrowth and neural progenitor proliferation; there are quite a few studies on curcumin's role in the brain. If this had been made by Wyeth, you'd be singing its praises, because the research behind indicates that it is a far more potent, cognitively enhancing as opposed to numbing, substance than SSRI's or Tryciclics.
Gotu kola has fewer studies, but has been shown to improve cognitive performance of both elderly people and young adults. In rodents, it has been shown to enhance dendrite arborization and branching by ~169% and 259% at 4ml/kg and 6ml/kg over a 6 week period.
Ashwagandha is also fairly well studied in rodents. I'm not sure what kind of medical evidence it has in humans, but the rodent studies are very impressive.
Meditation in at least one study has been shown to have a direct impact on cognitive performance. It was longitudinal study, I can dig it up if you can't find it. It has been shown to have essentially the same neurogenic benefit as cardiovascular exercise does, although it is probably a qualitatively different kind of benefit.
Acetyl L-Carnitine is also well enough studied to know that these effects exist. In vitro on hippocampal slices, the effect is unmistakable. In vivo, to my knowledge very little has been done on the subject, although I believe there are some animal studies.
Anyways, I'm sorry that you went through life without finding a solution, I truly am, but if you're going to make strong accusations, back them up with something. I couldn't possibly imagine that you'd be able to tell if your neurons were sprouting 2x as many dendrites. I just don't see that as possible. That's why I turn to studies to examine the effect. Personally I can tell you that turmeric, ashwagandha, and gotu kola make me feel balanced and healthy in a very rough time, and that since starting these 8 months ago, my memory and cognition seems better, especially with regards to working memory, which is better than it was prior to starting lamictal & other meds several years ago. I memorized 260 digits of pi in about 1.5 hours, or 150 in 30 minutes. That's more than I could have ever done before.
Like I said, if you don't believe this stuff works, why don't you take a look at the research behind it. Best of all, it is just food. These are all plants that are integrated into the cuisine of Asians, and they certainly don't consider them to be "voodoo". So I feel free of the bounds of our medicine, but mentally healthier than I was before integrating them into my diet.
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:11:09
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » bobman, posted by violette on June 20, 2010, at 11:44:28
> bobman,
>
> Your post is very inspiring...I'm pretty worn down right now by a lifetime of stressors, but when I am able to reduce some of my enivornmental stressors, I hope my self-discipline returns so that I can follow your approach.
>
> About the tumeric - how to you take 1-2 tsp. a day? I bought a bag of tumeric powder from an organic retailer online (I had researched the properties of the herb and it sounds very healthful). When I make a curry, whether with chick peas, tomatoes, coconut milk, etc., I use only about 1/2 a tblsp. in the whole dish. How do you incorporate it into your daily diet? I thought of dissolving it in hot water to form a tea, but it is the orangish yellow type-and is almost like a yellow dye (doesn't it stain your teeth??). My other thought was mixing it with plain yogurt. Anyway, I'd appreciate your advice on this.
>
> Haven't you also considered psychotherapy in your routine? I found the older you get, the more mental health issues sort of weaken your brain's coping abilities. It's an antecdotal thought, and my psychiatrist noted this as well as a result of his 30 some years of practice.
>
> ThanksI have a therapist, and I've had therapists before. I certainly think they're safer, and occasionally more beneficial. Like with all forms of treatment, it helps if you believe that it can help.
As far as turmeric goes, I am not a cook, and often the food I make with turmeric doesn't taste great. What I do is make a turmeric/black pepper mix (maybe for every 20 teaspoons of tuermeric, 1 or 1/2 of black pepper), and take it on my tongue after I eat. Sometimes I make tea with it, and use maybe 1/3 of a teaspoon for a large pot (4-6 cups). It takes a while to notice any difference, but I can tell if I stop taking it for more than a few days,
Posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:16:51
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 12:44:29
> I have a question for the anti-med folks here & I ask it in all sincerity because I would like to know & I'm trying to understand where you're coming from. I asked this on the social board, but nobody responded, so maybe no one is interested, but I'll try again here, since it is a question about medication.
>
> If you were diagnosed with lung or colon cancer & your oncologist told you that without treatment you had maybe a year to live, would you be willing to undergo chemotherapy, knowing, as your doctor would surely tell you, that the various drug "cocktails" used are toxic to your immune system and might not work or might leave you with permanent physical and mental deficits? And also knowing that the various combinations of drugs are often used in a trial and error manner to see which patient responds to which combination?
>
> I ask this, obviously, because I see an analogy between cancer drugs and psych drugs -- some are destructive for some people, some don't work, when used in combinations there is little clear clinical evidence on which to design the cocktail, etc. Still, using chemo & using psych drugs leads to remission in some patients.I think this is a stretch. The difference between cancer & its treatments, and mental illness, is that there is no empirical way of diagnosing a mental illness.
Here's a better comparison:
If you went into a doctor's office with a strong cough, enough so that you were coughing up blood, and the doctor decides, that based on your history of smoking and his observations, you have cancer, would you let him irradiate your lungs and pump you full of chemo?
If there was a diagnosable, biological root to my anxiety, and a corresponding treatment, I could evaluate the risks and benefits, and make a choice, much as I would do with cancer. Unfortunately nothing like this exists for mental illness, meaning that the medication you are prescribed is essentially faith-based medicine with a lot of side effects. That I wouldn't touch.
Posted by chujoe on June 20, 2010, at 14:43:11
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by bobman on June 20, 2010, at 14:16:51
There are all sorts of empirical psychological tests for mental illness; some progress has also been made in determining which regions of the brain are affected, but something does not have to be "biological" to be real. And surely the biological affects our states of mind. Just drink a cup of coffee.
But, Bobman, if you don't believe there is a biological basis for mental illness, why take all those herbs and supplements -- aren't you trying to influence the biological system of your body by doing so?
And I do think the cancer analogy is at least a little helpful: the remission rates for some of the worst cancers are not much better than the statistics on remission of mental illness cited by people like Whitaker and other anti-psych folks.
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