![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 88. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
I have not posted in the acceptance of meds gives me happiness thread because I would have nothing positive to say.
If people are happy taking meds and feel that they are essential then I think it is wise to ignore all the bad studies and statistics that are coming out about there long term use.
If you are one of these people then don't read on because this will not help you.
This thread is for people who are not happy, they are not doing well on drugs and feel that they would be better off without them yet cannot get off them because of they have put your brain into a vulnerable biochemical state.
Did you know that Depression was originally one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment?Here is a quote from anatomy of an epidemic.
"The SSRI path to a disabling mental illness can be easily seen. A depressed patient treated with an anti-depressant suffers a manic or psychotic episode, at which time his or her diagnosis is changed to bipolar disorder. At that point, the person is prescribed an anti-psychotic to go along with the anti-depressant, and, once on a drug cocktail, the person is well along on the road to permanent disability"
Does anyone else believe this or have I been spooked by an 'aids denier'?
Posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:32:53
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
See here
http://www.madinamerica.com/madinamerica.com/Anatomy%20of%20an%20Epidemic.html
Browse the links on the side of the page and read some of the case studies.
Food for thought.
Posted by Christ_empowered on June 15, 2010, at 22:43:49
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
not so much b/c I'm "in denial", but rather because it seems to me that psychiatry is in denial. The Mental Health Industry seems convinced that the right drug(s), the right amount of electroshock, the right talk therapy, the right mental hospital can fix all these so-called "mental illnesses." These "mental illnesses" attack our brains, but no one has spotted them. They cannont be diagnosed through a brain scan or blood test. They have yet to be found at autopsy (although the ill-effects of long term psychiatric treatment WILL show up on brain scans and at autopsy). From what I understand, the few studies that have looked at how effective treatments for "mental illness" are have been rather unimpressive. Antipsychotics didn't return psychotic people to jobs and school; whether the drug is Haldol or Geodon, it seems the result is a lethargic, docile person who is cared for by the government, family, or is possibly minimally employed. Antidepressants didn't fix depression, after all; suicide rates seem to be more affected by macro- and micro-social factors (macro: economy, war; micro- marital status, level of social integration, religious involvement) than by use of pills.
Maybe we should look at it from a Sociological perspective. What is going on? I think maybe the shrinks themselves are being deceived. They seem to think they actually do something that's useful, or important, or at least somewhat helpful. They are, of course, wrong; it would appear that shrinks head up a system that wastes money, wastes time, and destroys lives. So who benefits?
I'd say...people in power. Turning discontent into "illness" makes the discontent person unable to effect change in his/her life. The problem is a brain disease or a personality problem; drug it, talk it away. Whatever you do, don't: question what society considers "normal"; stop to think about forms of oppression (poverty, racism, homophobia, sexism) that could be part of your "illness"; don't think for 1 minute that unhappiness and stress are a normal part of life that should be handled through family, friends, and possibly religion (no, no; you need pros and pills, not friends and God). And for the love of God, do not think for yourself, or have religious experiences, unusual ideas, or strange insights.
Kinda long, sorry, but I'm glad to find someone else on the board who has tossed out their pill bottle(s) in search of something greater.
Posted by Phillipa on June 16, 2010, at 0:03:21
In reply to im also rejecting meds..., posted by Christ_empowered on June 15, 2010, at 22:43:49
I haven't tossed out my meds but have cut down to minimal doses. I don't feel that 40 years of benzos is even plausible at my age to totally discontinue. And the darn 50mg of luvox has a hold also. I know my problem began with thyroid commom add in positively diagnosed lymes disease and menopause and a prescription for disaster. Phillipa
Posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
In reply to im also rejecting meds..., posted by Christ_empowered on June 15, 2010, at 22:43:49
What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.If you were to argue that there is a biologial illness that we just are not advanced enough in our science to
detect it well what makes you think we are advanced enough to treat it?How can you treat a chemical imbalance that you have not detected using drugs that you do not understand what they do?
To me this seems the opposite of balance. When you are putting these drugs in your system, this is when you are creating
an imbalance which leads to you being chronically ill."For instance, Prozac and other SSRI antidepressants block
the reuptake of serotonin . In order to cope with this hindrance of normal function, the
brain tones down its whole serotonergic system . Neurons both release less serotonin and
down-regulate (or decrease) their number of serotonin receptors . The density of serotonin
receptors in the brain may decrease by 50% or more . As part of this adaptation
process, Hyman noted, there are also changes in intracellular signaling pathways and
gene expression . After a few weeks, Hyman concluded, the patient's brain is functioning
in a manner that is "qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from the normal
state""The brain responds to neuroleptics-which block 70% to 90% of all D, dopamine
receptors in the brain-as though they are a pathological insult . To compensate,
dopaminergic brain cells increase the density of their D, receptors by 30% or more"Does that sound like a healthy balance? Is there any suprise that once you stop taking a neuroleptic or an AD that when this gross
imbalance of receptors sends you a little nuts?
Christ empowered if you dont mind me asking, how did you get off your meds? From what it sounds like you were on a or some APs?I have tossed the pill bottles in the bin. Then gone scrambling back to the bin a couple of days later. I am having an extremly hard time with zyprexa. Only been on it for a couple of years. Would you mid sharing your story of how you got off them?
Posted by chujoe on June 16, 2010, at 7:48:28
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
>>What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.<<With all due respect, this strikes me as rather patronizing. In what respect are you using "you"? As in "You are putting these drugs in your system..." As my friend from Brooklyn might say, "You talkin' to me?" Please do not assume that those of us who have found relief from medications are ignorant of the risk; many of us are throughly familiar with the literature and have made informed decisions. On the other hand, much of what I hear from the anti-med movement sounds more like childish demands for certainty where no certainty exists.
Also, the phrase "these drugs" is simply not a credible scientific description, since there are many kinds of drugs that one "puts into one's system, though the phrase does reveal a philosophical or perhaps religious bias against psychiatric drugs. Do you drink coffee or tea, by the way? Have a glass of wine with dinner? Eat chocolate? Those are all psychiatric drugs. Exactly what drugs are you talking about?
The assertion about chemical imbalance is, to say the least, debatable. As with changes in brain anatomy, blood flow to various parts of the brain, etc., the science is not conclusive.
Posted by Elanor Roosevelt on June 16, 2010, at 8:41:17
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
empty ideas
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 16, 2010, at 9:28:57
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Elanor Roosevelt on June 16, 2010, at 8:41:17
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean by what you wrote as to what could be thought to be a response to what another poster here wrote since your post is linked to that members post.
Now if your post is a reply to that poster that your post is linked to, then if you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. What are the ideas that you posted about?
B. What criteria did you use, if any, to use the adjective that you used to describe the ideas?
C. other questions if these have answers posted by you here.
Lou
Posted by Christ_empowered on June 16, 2010, at 9:35:25
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
I was on a lot of meds when I was younger (18-20) for "Bipolar"; I quit after ending up in a detox facility for what one doc said was a prescription amphetamine-induced psychosis and another said was a bipolar episode made worse by amphetamines. That was hard, but I went pretty much cold-turkey.
I was re-medicated when I was put into a mental hospital for (you guessed it) "bipolar" 3 years later. I'd been attacked (hit in the head during what I guess was a mugging), but that didn't matter: what did matter was that I tried to fight against being taken to the psych hospital, so they put me on depakote and antipsychotics.
I ended up in a "Christ-centered" program for people with "life-controlling problems." Most of them were drug addicts; my problems were of a psychiatric and social nature. I took meds during most of my stay there, but gradually came off of everything. I've been medication free for the past 3 months or so.
I think one reason the anti-psychiatry movement hasn't made a big comeback yet is that they don't have a treatment plan. Granted, the drugs don't work all that well, but...its a plan. Mental illness may not be due to brain problems, but they are problems nonetheless, and they need to be addressed. I was lucked out on getting what basically amounted to extended psycho-social rehabilitation PLUS religious education; this meant I got re-socialized AND I was spared the kind of mind-numbing psychobabble that characterizes most programs for the mentally ill.
Now I'm motivated to stay off meds b/c I realize that I had moral and social problems, but I never had a "brain disease." I see that the mental health industry pretty much seems to manufacture victims; they don't help people, they oppress them.
Good luck to you.
Posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 11:06:57
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
You are entitled to your opinion just like anyone else. But maybe you should do some homework! The brain is plastic, so naturally its development is affected by environment & relations with caregivers in the form of maladaptive behaviors/cognition.
http://www.psybc.com/pdfs/library/Dysregulation_of_right_Brain_Schore_Trauma.pdf
Yes, the meds can suck. However, as someone stated in another post, we are in the stoneage when it comes to mental disorders. But its not our fault more money has been poured into research for cancer or to prolong the lives of the dying rather than promote the wellness of the living. Mental health has always been on the backburner, with most of our healthcare $ spent on extending lives just before people die.
The purpose of science is to find the truth-but if the DSM does not reflect the truth, and research is based on DSM criteria, then logically, the research findings don't reflect the truth. The DSM was created by the Army during WWII, and although it has evolved, I think it is partly responsible for the problems in the mental health field. It's being revised again, but the whole thing should be restructured for research purposes. In practice, the codes are used mostly for billing.
Systematically, psychiatry is too seperate from neurology and endocronology, and psychologists are so divided about theory...until that is further integrated, its still going to suck. But its all some of us have to live sane and productive lives.
Posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 11:25:02
In reply to how I (finally) got off meds..., posted by Christ_empowered on June 16, 2010, at 9:35:25
Congratulations-sounds like a success story. I agree with some aspects of your reasoning, though your situation is unique to you. People can use substances to block emotional pain and emotional dysregulation, sometimes erroneously diagnosed as bipolar...put on meds for the rest of their lives instead of dealing with the psychological issues.
You didn't mention if your program was similar--but the 12 step program of AA/NA, based on spirituality (as opposed to specifically christianity) is a success, I'm amazed how it has helped people cope and progress without medications. I know of 2 people, previously on meds, who completely recovered from using the 12 step program and no longer use psychotropics.
It's not for everyone though; what worked for you is great, but we are all unique...and because a specific treatment worked for you doesn't mean people with totally different circumstances than yourself, people with totally different traits and genetic structures, backgrounds and history, can arrive at the_exact_same_outcome as you.
I'd guess you already realize this though. Thanks for sharing your story.
Posted by chujoe on June 16, 2010, at 11:40:10
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds... » Huxley, posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 11:06:57
>>But maybe you should do some homework!<<
It is my understanding that we do not tell each other what to do in this forum; instead, we use "I statements." So please stop condescending to me and many other members and assuming we have not done our homework. Nor do I need to be told that I am "entitled to [my] opinions." That, literally, should go without saying.
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2010, at 11:55:43
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
> What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.You may want to do some more reading.
- Scott
Posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 12:03:43
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by chujoe on June 16, 2010, at 11:40:10
Oh, sorry, Chujoe-my post was for Huxley. I thought people were telling him that his opinion was not welcome--but I misinterpreted others' intentions...I was just trying to encourage him to learn more about the neurobiological origins of mental illness and thought that was a good article that might persuade him.
Sorry if I offended anyone :(
Posted by violette on June 16, 2010, at 12:11:07
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by chujoe on June 16, 2010, at 11:40:10
>>But maybe you should do some homework!<<
It is my understanding that we do not tell each other what to do in this forum; instead, we use "I statements." So please stop condescending to me and many other members and assuming we have not done our homework. Nor do I need to be told that I am "entitled to [my] opinions." That, literally, should go without saying.
___________________________Huxley, as pointed out by another member, I shouldn't have said "maybe you should do some homework". Sorry! I should have said here's an article that might change your mind or something like that.
It's just I've observed many people say on this part of the forum-"don't say this, don't say that...don't post here if you are anti-med, dont' scare people with research that shows meds are harmful"....it seemed the post was headed that way and I was telling Huxley I welcomed his opinion even if I didn't agree with it, thinking the post was going to turn into an argument rather than a useful debate.
Posted by 49er on June 16, 2010, at 17:22:17
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
Hi Huxley,
I am completely free of psych meds after 15 years on them. I took my last pill almost a week ago and feel so much better.
I still struggle with insomnia but it was so bad on psych meds, that practically anything is an improvement.
I started tapering a 4 med cocktail in 2006. I pretty much tapered 10% of current dose every 3 to 6 weeks with the exception of Wellbutrin XL which I cold turkeyed with the help of spirulina.
I have the Whitaker book and agree completely with everything you say.
I will be honest, even though I was tapering slowly, I wondered if my brain was permanently damaged. I had horrible cognitive brain fog. But once I stopped taking psych meds, I realized it wasn't as it improved greatly. Not 100% but so much better.
I know people get tired of my saying this but slow tapering is the key in my opinion.
If people want to babble me, feel free to do so.
Please don't give up hope.
49er
Posted by Mrtook on June 16, 2010, at 17:48:13
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
>
> How can you treat a chemical imbalance that you have not detected using drugs that you do not understand what they do?
>
> To me this seems the opposite of balance. When you are putting these drugs in your system, this is when you are creating
> an imbalance which leads to you being chronically ill.
>
> "For instance, Prozac and other SSRI antidepressants block
> the reuptake of serotonin . In order to cope with this hindrance of normal function, the
> brain tones down its whole serotonergic system . Neurons both release less serotonin and
> down-regulate (or decrease) their number of serotonin receptors . The density of serotonin
> receptors in the brain may decrease by 50% or more . As part of this adaptation
> process, Hyman noted, there are also changes in intracellular signaling pathways and
> gene expression . After a few weeks, Hyman concluded, the patient's brain is functioning
> in a manner that is "qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from the normal
> state"
The simplistic mono-amine (chemical imbalance) theory of depression has not really been credible for a while. The source for this theory was that TCA's worked and this was their major biological effect. Ergo, it must be what is causing the anti-depressant effect! In reality no one knows why they work, but they have been proven to have a net positive effect at least for some short term. In fact some of the brain changes you indicate are currently hypothesized as the real mechanics of the anti-depressant qualities.Regardless, the real power of AD's is the hope that they bring (Why we have to pay lots of money and endure side effects to get the placebo bonus is a frustration. I would love for some top secret gov. agency to release Plabix a new AD with some miraculous and made up method of action that barely costs anything at all).
The bottom line is that if you have decided that they (meds) are part of the problem for you then you have most likely decided your response to them. I would encourage you to not shout your POV to the world, however, as you might ruin the significant AD magic that is placebo based for others.
If you had evidence that was more compelling in regards to long term harm I would be all for it, however, I just don't find Whitaker to be all that truthful and unbiased. When he very blatantly misrepresents study conclusions
I found this post http://chekhovsgun.blogspot.com/2010/05/anatomy-of-epidemic-or-story-told-over.html very interesting.
Again, I am not saying you aren't right, and long term research is certainly warranted, but I still think the benefits out weigh the research.
Posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Mrtook on June 16, 2010, at 17:48:13
Hi All,
Apologies I am new to this forum and I understand that I have been a little insensitive, as mr took put it 'shoutinging my POV'.
It was a little aggressive so I will tone it down and refer to myself and my experience as someone put it we are all unique.
That being said, the title of the thread is pretty obvious and I also advised in the first post for those happy on their medications and
not wanting to hear any negativity not to read on.I refrained from posting in the acceptance of meds thread out of respect that it was a place where people did not want to hear about this.
If this is a pro medication forum and I am way out of line and in the wrong place then the moderator can give me
a tap on a shoulder and I will head for the nearest exit.For me personally, the days of blindly accepting what psychiatry tells me is good for me is over. For even taking this view, I am met by hostile opposition
from doctors and people on internet forums. If I question the wisdom of modern psychiatry I am an anti med nut all of a sudden.Why can't I question this 'science' that is built on shakey foundations at best. Why can't we even ponder that what we know is wrong?
I think a mature and respectable conversation is needed to lift the lid on psychiatry and see what comes out.
I as a patient have been deceived. By my doctor and by several large pharmaseutical companies. And I have been left feeling that they do not have my best interests at heart.Big pharma companies are drugging 3 year olds with Zyprexa. They are combining anti-psychotics with anti-depressants in the same pill to get more of the population into the AP game.
The ever expanding classification of Bipolar. I mean really.. what the hell is bipolar with features otherwise undescribed..?
They knew that some APs caused diabetes among other serious health problems and chose to withold that from the public and still push the drug onto them.
I could go on for ever about disturbing practices that these companies engage in. However, my point is that they do not have your interests at heart. They are driven
by profit.And they are the driving force in the world of psychiatry. They educate doctors with sales reps, conferences, case studies and whatever other means they have.
They go out of there way to destroy the reputations of professionals who question the practices of psychiatry.So I find it alarming that my dr's views on psychiatry come from the big pharma companies.
Since I have cut down on my medications, gradually, I am getting a little clarity back into my mind. I am far less agitated. The stories of people who have come
of meds and are doing better than ever fills me with hope.Christ empowered thanks for sharing your story.
Violette no offence taken at all, we all feel passionatly about this issue, it is very central to our lives.
SLS the link that you posted did not work for me. I did a google with your search terms and
read an article noting "Further studies will show whether the changes in the brain were the result of depression or anti-depressant medication"I think studies have proven that psychiatric medications do significantly alter the structure of the brain.
49er thanks, it's people like you who have done this and are doing well that really give me hope. I would love to hear more about your story and will babble you.
cheers,
Huxley.
Posted by mrtook on June 16, 2010, at 21:21:23
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
You are right I should have refrained from posting in this thread. I apologize.
Posted by Dan_MI on June 16, 2010, at 21:47:59
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
I don't know how frank I'm allowed to be here, but don't forget Scientology's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was obsessed with discrediting psychiatry, and there is now a well-funded army of his followers trying to get people off meds and come in for auditing.
> I have not posted in the acceptance of meds gives me happiness thread because I would have nothing positive to say.
>
> If people are happy taking meds and feel that they are essential then I think it is wise to ignore all the bad studies and statistics that are coming out about there long term use.
>
> If you are one of these people then don't read on because this will not help you.
>
> This thread is for people who are not happy, they are not doing well on drugs and feel that they would be better off without them yet cannot get off them because of they have put your brain into a vulnerable biochemical state.
>
>
> Did you know that Depression was originally one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment?
>
> Here is a quote from anatomy of an epidemic.
>
> "The SSRI path to a disabling mental illness can be easily seen. A depressed patient treated with an anti-depressant suffers a manic or psychotic episode, at which time his or her diagnosis is changed to bipolar disorder. At that point, the person is prescribed an anti-psychotic to go along with the anti-depressant, and, once on a drug cocktail, the person is well along on the road to permanent disability"
>
> Does anyone else believe this or have I been spooked by an 'aids denier'?
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Conundrum on June 16, 2010, at 21:48:30
In reply to Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 22:27:04
>
> "The SSRI path to a disabling mental illness can be easily seen. A depressed patient treated with an anti-depressant suffers a manic or psychotic episode, at which time his or her diagnosis is changed to bipolar disorder. At that point, the person is prescribed an anti-psychotic to go along with the anti-depressant, and, once on a drug cocktail, the person is well along on the road to permanent disability"
This sounds like what happened to me. Since I had a rebound of odd spirituality after discontinuing SSRIs for a couple years my pdoc now thinks I have mood stablity (BP) issues. The fact is those strange feelings were only felt one time in my life, after discontinuing prozac. I only felt persistantly happy one time in my life, while on prozac. Why is my biology getting blamed for something anyone with half a brain can see is the action of a drug and the rebound after drug discontinuation?If I got high on MDMA or heroin, no one would say "You're bipolar" they would say I was high. Why is it that antidepressant drugs can't make some people feel better all the time? Thats their job. Sometimes they work a little better in some ppl. I think the antipsychotic thing might have gotten a little out of control. I would only take an AP if I though it would help MY SYMPTOMS. I would only take a dose for MY SYMPTOMS, which would be below the doses needed for psychosis or BP disorder.
Now this all sounds very antimed. And I like you huxley believe if I had never taken ADs i would have recovered on my own, but it wasn't really up to me. I don't mean to keep mentioning the past, this is just for people who don't know my story. Many would probably say "well then why are you here?"
Because I have to fight fire with fire. After 7 years of persistant problems after prozac discontinuation I need to take a psych drug or drugs to counteract what prozac has done in my brain. I'm not even sure this will work, but I feel I don't have many other options. I haven't found most plant products helpful. The same goes for many synthetic supplements I've tried. I now have to find a drug that can help me to reverse the changes made previously made in my brain and god knows if thats possible. Thats like that guy from Quantum Leap to get back to his own time and world. I have some ideas of things that might help but I don't know if I'll ever get back to 100% the way i was before OR while on prozac. yes while on teh drug I was fine, more than fine. Something happened stopping it. My brain adapted to fit the drug and now seems to be lost or not interested in helping my anhedonia and symptoms, since I guess they're not critical to my survival or at least my brain doesn't seem to think so.
End Rant.
Posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 22:50:38
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Dan_MI on June 16, 2010, at 21:47:59
> I don't know how frank I'm allowed to be here, but don't forget Scientology's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was obsessed with discrediting psychiatry, and there is now a well-funded army of his followers trying to get people off meds and come in for auditing.
>Hi Dan, so you are saying if I question my treatment then I am a scientologist?
Thanks for re-enforcing my point.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 17, 2010, at 2:38:05
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 19:21:50
> This thread is for people who are not happy, they are not doing well on drugs and feel that they would be better off without them yet cannot get off them because of they have put your brain into a vulnerable biochemical state.
> I refrained from posting in the acceptance of meds thread out of respect that it was a place where people did not want to hear about this.
>
> If this is a pro medication forum and I am way out of line and in the wrong place then the moderator can give me a tap on a shoulder and I will head for the nearest exit.
>
> HuxleyThis is a pro discussion forum. Thanks for allowing that thread to focus on one aspect of this issue. I'd like to ask others to allow this thread to focus on another aspect.
--
> much of what I hear from the anti-med movement sounds more like childish demands for certainty where no certainty exists.
>
> chujoe> empty ideas
>
> Elanor RooseveltPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dan_MI on June 17, 2010, at 10:16:42
In reply to Re: Rejection of Meds Gives me Hope, posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 22:50:38
No, I'm saying be careful of some of the people who try to get you off meds or you'll end up like Lisa McPherson:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson
> > I don't know how frank I'm allowed to be here, but don't forget Scientology's founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was obsessed with discrediting psychiatry, and there is now a well-funded army of his followers trying to get people off meds and come in for auditing.
> >
>
> Hi Dan, so you are saying if I question my treatment then I am a scientologist?
> Thanks for re-enforcing my point.
>
Posted by bulldog2 on June 17, 2010, at 12:46:11
In reply to Re: im also rejecting meds..., posted by Huxley on June 16, 2010, at 4:37:45
>
> What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE.
> If it was a biological illness then there would be biological evidence.
>
> If you were to argue that there is a biologial illness that we just are not advanced enough in our science to
> detect it well what makes you think we are advanced enough to treat it?
>
> How can you treat a chemical imbalance that you have not detected using drugs that you do not understand what they do?
>
> To me this seems the opposite of balance. When you are putting these drugs in your system, this is when you are creating
> an imbalance which leads to you being chronically ill.
>
> "For instance, Prozac and other SSRI antidepressants block
> the reuptake of serotonin . In order to cope with this hindrance of normal function, the
> brain tones down its whole serotonergic system . Neurons both release less serotonin and
> down-regulate (or decrease) their number of serotonin receptors . The density of serotonin
> receptors in the brain may decrease by 50% or more . As part of this adaptation
> process, Hyman noted, there are also changes in intracellular signaling pathways and
> gene expression . After a few weeks, Hyman concluded, the patient's brain is functioning
> in a manner that is "qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from the normal
> state"
>
> "The brain responds to neuroleptics-which block 70% to 90% of all D, dopamine
> receptors in the brain-as though they are a pathological insult . To compensate,
> dopaminergic brain cells increase the density of their D, receptors by 30% or more"
>
> Does that sound like a healthy balance? Is there any suprise that once you stop taking a neuroleptic or an AD that when this gross
> imbalance of receptors sends you a little nuts?
>
>
> Christ empowered if you dont mind me asking, how did you get off your meds? From what it sounds like you were on a or some APs?
>
> I have tossed the pill bottles in the bin. Then gone scrambling back to the bin a couple of days later. I am having an extremly hard time with zyprexa. Only been on it for a couple of years. Would you mid sharing your story of how you got off them?
>
>
>
>
>
>My thread was started on the premis that for some people meds are the only method that have worked. I have not stated that meds are the only path for all people. Again a thread based on those for whom meds have been the path that has led to remission.
Now something that has worked for ChristEmpowered or other people that is non med does not mean that meds are the incorrect path for those above. It simply means there is more than one way to solve a problem.
I think there is a lot of evidence that there is a biological basis for depression and other mental illness. It is the science of genetics. Like any part of the human anatomy the brain can be diseased and can be encoded via genetics and passed along. I saw it in my own family. People who have raised dogs for instance have pups born with behavioral problems. Forget the term chemical imbalance that is just something that someone coined. People pass along size, eye color, diabetes and all kinds of biological problems. Well the brain is an organ and how can one deny that it is not subject to disease.
By the way there are tcas, maois and other ads. Just because ssris are flawed doesn't mean all ads are flawed. Also all ads do not lead to mania and a than a diagnosis are bi polar.
What Christ empowered says is true and people need to recognise that THERE IS NO CHEMICAL IMBALANCE
Why do I have to recognize this? Because sometone said it?
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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