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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 63. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
I am just being honest with myself. I don't think I will ever fully recover. I don't have the same brain I started with 10 years ago when I got myself onto this ride of psychiatric drugs.
Linkadge
Posted by ace on April 2, 2010, at 14:11:58
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
> I am just being honest with myself. I don't think I will ever fully recover.
Fully recover from what?
Not sure if you mean psychiatric syndrome or medication problems?I don't have the same brain I started with 10 years ago when I got myself onto this ride of psychiatric drugs.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by 49er on April 2, 2010, at 14:42:04
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover » linkadge, posted by ace on April 2, 2010, at 14:11:58
> > I am just being honest with myself. I don't think I will ever fully recover.
>
> Fully recover from what?
> Not sure if you mean psychiatric syndrome or medication problems?
>
I had the same question.49er
Posted by morganator on April 2, 2010, at 15:06:23
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
I feel the same way you do. I also think all the depression and stress have done their fair share of damage. This definitely sucks.
Posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 15:19:00
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by morganator on April 2, 2010, at 15:06:23
Although this may be a radical statement, I wonder if psychiatric drugs make some of us worse off in the long run than we would have been if we had not taken them in the first place and sought out psychotherapy instead.
Benzodiazepines have been beneficial throughout the years, but my limited experience with antidepressants, especially long term Stablon use, makes me think that it could make things worse?
It just seems there is no "cure", despite all the hype in the 1980s about antidepressants "curing" depression if taken for 6 months.
Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 16:22:47
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 15:19:00
This is not a radical statement. This idea has been suggested (and studied to some extent) before.
Most depression gets better on its own within 6-12 months. But, people these days are taking SSRI's almost indefinately (on the assumption that they need them to prevent future episodes). The truth is more likely that they can't get off them.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on April 2, 2010, at 16:27:28
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 15:19:00
If left untreated, the natural progression of MDD and BD is towards increasing severity and chronicity. For many people, it would be difficult to parse out how much of the worsening in their depressive illness is a function of drug treatment and how much is the manifestation of the illness itself.
- Scott
Posted by qbsbrown on April 2, 2010, at 16:43:06
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
I couldn't agree with you more linkage. What i've done to myself and brain, and the experiences and memories that i've given myself from the drugs i have taken, is ridiculous, and wonder about my recovery at all.
Now when I read people like peter breggin, or the people at benzoisland, he/they sure doesn't sound crazy to me any more. Although it felt like paxil saved my life at age 19 from panic disorder, although psychotherapy would have been the best route.
But after that, i could literally feel the denial of my brain ingesting the drugs. I couldn't feel my brain saying no, don't take this, along with my body, and my intuition, saying this is a foreign attack on myself, stop it.
And it seems like i've perpetually made myself crazy from it, lol.
Posted by bulldog2 on April 2, 2010, at 16:52:43
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
> I am just being honest with myself. I don't think I will ever fully recover. I don't have the same brain I started with 10 years ago when I got myself onto this ride of psychiatric drugs.
>
> LinkadgeThat is probably true and i know that is true for me...I have a somewhat similar pattern of treating myself..Find a combo and it might be a good one and than stop six weeks later due to fear of the meds...Tend to cycle around a lot with different combos but never commit for the long term...
However there is one major difference..I do know the meds probably have made some brain changes..But I also admidt that I would not have healed on my own..I just have to observe some of my unmedicated family members to see the awful truth..So I had some periods where I felt good on drugs...no shame about that...
The awful truth is that many of us are born with mental illness that will not heal on its own and the meds out there are a bit archaic and behind the rest of modern medicine..Probably because modern medicine started later on mental illness..So that's life..The best thing I can do for myself is medicate now and than so I have a period of semi remission...So just cycle some decent combos now and than and don't beat yourself up about it.
Posted by Jeroen on April 2, 2010, at 17:18:57
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover » ace, posted by 49er on April 2, 2010, at 14:42:04
you kidding me brother? from what?
psychosis, depression, autims, whatever, same thing
i have same doubts that linkadge has :(
Posted by conundrum on April 2, 2010, at 17:40:08
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
> I don't have the same brain I started with 10 years ago when I got myself onto this ride of psychiatric drugs.
>
> LinkadgeI feel the same. I was 16 and didn't even have a choice. I'd rather have depressive moments than numbness. I haven't given up hope that nothing will help.
I do think that block 80% of serotonergic transporters is a really bad mechanism for drugs, seem to cause permanent problems. I don't think other drugs cause this problem like MAOI inhibitors. There are whole sites dedicated to getting off prozac and paxil, I don't see things like this for TCAs and MAOIs. Also I think its different for BP disorder. Depressive episodes can come and go on their own sometimes.
Posted by bleauberry on April 2, 2010, at 17:42:50
In reply to I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 14:08:08
There are countless syndromes, diseases, and symptoms that millions of people suffer from that just do not ever fully recover. Many in fact continue to progress. The best many can do is to slow the progression and ease the symptoms.
We're talking diabetes, fibromyalgia, MS, parkinson's, chronic late lyme, kidney or liver pathology, heart disease, blood pressure, on and on and on. From the most common names to the most complicated.
How is it that the syndrome or disease of MDD is any different? Because a minority of people experience temporary improvement or remission on a psych drug? When has it ever been a total cure that lasted a lifetime? I think rarely. It is a chronic condition with many possible causes. Even if we found the cause and removed it, how do we know that permanent damage has not already been done?
For many people with longstanding depression and long histories of drug treatments, I think expecting a total cure is unrealistic. I do not however think the battle to attain it should stop. But it should be put into perspective. Expectations for the short term (the next 3 years) should be lowered, while longterm expectations remain high. If the next 3 years there is no improvement, then the short term goal for the next 3 years stays the same, but the longterm goal is still very high. The bar keeps moving.
This allows us to live here and now. We aren't wasting a life by chasing someting that may never happen. It prevents frustration, disappointment, and further succumbing to the seductive power of the disease which would love to see us retreat to a couch or a bedroom forever.
There needs to be acceptance that life is not a promised rose garden. From the day of birth we are destined to deteriorate little by little.
To long for the good ole days is probably not a healthy thing. To accept the here and now for what it is and to make the best of it is healthy.
Some of the happiest or most productive or most creative people I've ever witnessed were those with heavy crutches. But, and it's a big but, it only pertains to those who said, "Ok screw it, I got this heavy monster for the rest of my life but it aint gonna keep me on the couch any longer. I am stronger than this thing."
That's hard in depression. It means forcing oneself out of the comfort zone. It means forcing oneself to do things that are so hard they are almost impossible. A new hobby. Entering a church on a Sunday for the first time. Starting a job hunt. Exercising. Making dramatic changes in food choices. Playing mind exercise games. Hikes. All the stuff that totally sucks when depressed. Actually, the harder it is to do, probably the more we need to do it! The only thing stopping us is ourselves, not the depression.
Over time we score enough wins that the brain partially recovers. We aren't as ill as we used to be. And it happened without drugs. Something healed with the right prodding.
I think of people like Ace who scored a big and apparently permanent cure with Nardil. Others have stories of 8 years on zoloft, or 10 years on prozac. I know one person who went years on antipsychotics and everyone gave up on her. She started a whole new family of friends at a church, weaned off her drugs, and is basically normal now. Those stories are so rare though, that it reminds me of the rare Las Vegas jackpot winners, or the rare lottery winners, that makes all the rest of us thing we are next in line to be the next big winner. Very seductive thinking.
Everyone's journey is different. But I think for many of us, our expectations are too high. We are not exempt from dealing with the troubles of life anymore than millions of other people with their diseases and syndromes. We are in fact probably much more fortunate than many of them who have already accepted their disease and moved on to more productive lives despite it.
Don't get me wrong. I want a total cure. I will never give up fighting for it. But until then, beginning about 2 years ago, I did lower my short-term expectations because it allowed me to open a new chapter and say, "ok then, let's move forward despite it all, other people of lesser strength than me did it, so can I, life is too short for a couch of dreams."
Since then I have discovered:
I can go to work feeling like death, yet come home feeling like I won something...it was hard, I did it, I feel better than I did.
My best music came from those times I was so depressed I had to force myself to hold the guitar. I had to force myself to stay with it for hours. Never during my good times did I make music that good. The music I made during good times didn't "touch" people as much. But the music I made when I would have rather committed suicide gives people goosebumps, and they certainly feel spiritual emotion in it.
For someone else they would experience the same spiritual gift, except in some other way not a guitar.
So there are actually good sides to depression. We see things others don't see. We can create things others can't. We can experinece bigger wins than others. We can help others in ways no one else can. There are unseen gifts.
But it sucks. As does any disease. I keep fighting. I've scored enough wins over the monster I lost count a long time ago. I rule the monster now, it doesn't rule me. As long as it is with me, I am the boss, not it.
Posted by conundrum on April 2, 2010, at 17:52:07
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by bleauberry on April 2, 2010, at 17:42:50
Posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 19:29:06
In reply to Re: Bravo (nm) » bleauberry, posted by conundrum on April 2, 2010, at 17:52:07
Do any other folks feel the same way? I use light therapy as my main treatment to ward off depression and it is very effective, but it too seems to decrease my libido. When I am feeling down and depressed, I have more interest in sex. Perhaps it is because we think sex might help raise our mood? And when we are in a normal mood we don't desire sex as much because we don't desire a reward as much as when we are depressed? After all, we feel good enough when "normal", so we don't need any extra "kicks".
Does that sound about right?
Light therapy should not affect sexual function, but I feel almost no libido (3 hours/day light therapy). I read thought that it boosts serotonin and antagonizes melatonin production.
Posted by Phillipa on April 2, 2010, at 19:44:16
In reply to higher sex drive when depressed, posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 19:29:06
Meds have done nothing for me it's me and getting out and doing things that have worked the best for me. I'm permanently tolerant to benzos at low doses and will continue to take them why not at age 64? Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:07:16
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by bulldog2 on April 2, 2010, at 16:52:43
>The awful truth is that many of us are born with >mental illness that will not heal on its own and >the meds out there are a bit archaic and behind >the rest of modern medicine
Maybe maybe not. We don't really know what is causing our problems so we don't really know what might make them better.
I am not saying bad genes don't exist, but theres not a lot of proof (yet?) that the drugs are really addressing any fundamental disease process.
Linkadge
Posted by ace on April 2, 2010, at 20:08:59
In reply to to ace, posted by Jeroen on April 2, 2010, at 17:18:57
> you kidding me brother? from what?
It's not clear in his question, and some of the answers, whether it be psychiatric syndromes or possible medication side-effects posing the problem. Many people complain of the medications causing problems themselves especially when used over long periods of time.
> psychosis, depression, autims, whatever, same thing
>
> i have same doubts that linkadge has :(
Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:09:36
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover » linkadge, posted by conundrum on April 2, 2010, at 17:40:08
Well, when TCA's were around, they were not prescribed as liberally as the SSRI's are. So you might have a ratio of like 10 people who have tried an SSRI vs. one who has tried a TCA.
I agree about the serotonin transporters. They are there for a reason. Your bran can (and does) regulate them on its own in response to low levels of neurotransmitters.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:11:44
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by bleauberry on April 2, 2010, at 17:42:50
Yeah, but I've been battling this off and on for 10 years trying this or that med. My brother had a depressive episode (probably worse than mine) which he did not medicate. He recovered and is doing much better than I could dream.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:13:46
In reply to higher sex drive when depressed, posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 19:29:06
Perhaps your depression is associtated with high dopamine and low serotonin. Serotonin puts the breaks on obsessions (including sexual obsessions).
I know when I am depressed I want everything but like (or am satisfied) with nothing.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:16:56
In reply to Re: higher sex drive when depressed, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:13:46
I think my whole obsession with medications is just an attempt to get (or feel) more control over my life.
Instead of just letting go, and not being such a control freak, I loom on pages like this for the wrong answers.
Linkadge
Posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 20:39:43
In reply to I think I just want control..., posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:16:56
It's interesting that you mentioned that about high dopamine activity when depressed. I think you hit the nail right on the head. I have OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder), which is basically (or should be better known as) Perfectionistic Personality Disorder. I read a medical abstract that showed high dopamine activity in the dopamine D2 and D3 receptors in folks with OCPD. The D3 receptor is associated with compulsions.
Seventy percent of people with OCPD suffer from depression too and anxiety.
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 6:21:34
In reply to Re: I doubt I will ever fully recover, posted by bleauberry on April 2, 2010, at 17:42:50
I think there is a conundrum when it comes to using the word "depression" to label various human conditions. Perhaps the majority of people who complain of depression will see their discomfort ease with time, but I don't think the same can be said of recurrent or chronic MDD and BD. The latter two conditions are most likely being driven by anomalous brain neural and, perhaps, endocrine activity. They tend to get worse if left untreated.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2010, at 10:16:49
In reply to Re: higher sex drive when depressed, posted by linkadge on April 2, 2010, at 20:13:46
> Perhaps your depression is associtated with high dopamine and low serotonin. Serotonin puts the breaks on obsessions (including sexual obsessions).
Ah. Makes sense.
- Scott
Posted by julie1977 on April 3, 2010, at 14:09:19
In reply to higher sex drive when depressed, posted by sukarno on April 2, 2010, at 19:29:06
maybe its because our primitive brain is activated so we have a higher sex drive. I'm the same.
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