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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2010, at 19:36:52
In reply to Re: my terrible history » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2010, at 19:28:15
Brian found this hope the link works seems valium and benzos are used a lot with MS. Seems like a good website for you to search. Love Phillipa
Multiple Sclerosis Drug Treatments
Posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 22:31:59
In reply to Re: my terrible history » Phillipa, posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2010, at 19:36:52
> Brian found this hope the link works seems valium and benzos are used a lot with MS. Seems like a good website for you to search. Love Phillipa
>
> Multiple Sclerosis Drug TreatmentsYeah, the irony of benzos being used a lot for MS. Perhaps as I was coming off, much or most of my symptoms were MS and not WD. I had gotten down to 17mgs valium, and my body was a wreck, i couldn't leave the house, psychosis, and other untellable things.
That's why now, on xanax, i think about crossing over to valium again, and could not even fathom a taper from there.
I wonder if benzos might have to be a long term thing with MS.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 22:43:26
In reply to Re: my terrible history » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 30, 2010, at 16:59:12
> If you're feeling some sedation for 2mg Xanax tid, perhaps you can reduce a little? 6mg per day is certainly a lot since Xanax is very potent.
>
> Xanax is a very difficult drug to taper so Valium is often substituted.
>
> In order to prevent a 'shock to the system' I still think that it would be a good idea to gradually increase the Valium at the same time as gradually decreasing the Xanax. Once you have stopped Xanax, you can then start to reduce the Valium.
>
>
>
>
>
>Well, I wonder if trileptal and/or lyrica could help at all.
The xanax xr version is probably going to be too expensive. I FEAR a valium withdrawal, as i was psychotic, housebound, lost weight, couldn't swallow, i felt like i was hight, on speed, on acid, anything under the gamet, you name it.
I don' know if this was some serious MS flaring up, or what was going on.
So yes, the xanax isn't great, and it does make me feel quite i'll i believe, and there is some interdose wd. Going over to valium, say 60mgs, and coming off that, after what i went through getting from 30mgs to 17mgs over months this past year, scares the bajesus out of me.
I am CLUELESS as what to do here.
I felt some decency with the trileptal today, but some serious naseaua and headache, which i thought was benzo related, but i think may have been the provigil
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 12:37:23
In reply to Ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 22:43:26
Just curious on thoughts here. After years of bipolar drugs, and numerous job failures, especially due to concentration/motivation issues, i was finally put on stimulants,and there were some benzos in there.
For the first time in my adult life, I became a productive employee. And the racing thoughts that had plagued me for so long, and giving me the bipolar dx, didn't seem to bother me as much. or maybe it's that on stimulants, your racing thoughts at least aren't unpleasurable ones lol.
But I think for me, some abuse problems might creep in, as i had some near overdoses. And counteracting stimulants with benzos, sure can wreck your CNS, and now finding out that I have MS, might not be the best thing.
I guess, if anything, provigil might be my safest be, agreed?
I used to take many bipolar drugs, zyprexa, trileptal,lyrica etc, and i still couldn't concentrate and be in the present moment, then added provigil, and boom, i was in the present moment like normal people.
Only problem for me now is my MS, and anything that effects my CNS, and given the wreckage of my CNS from my benzo wd and re-introduction of benzos, and now my inability to tolerate drugs, it even seems that the once golden provigil, is making me sick.
bummer.
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 31, 2010, at 17:52:00
In reply to how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 12:37:23
Brian,
Try not to fear the withdrawal. If you experience severe withdrawal symptoms, the taper must be too fast. You will need to go as slowly as you feel comfortable with.
First of all, forget about the taper. For now, concentrate on transferring from Xanax over to Valium, which may take a few weeks if you do it in stages. Once you are stable on Valium, you can then decide if/when you want to start reducing the dose.
During the withdrawal, do you think Provigil will help or make you feel overstimulated?
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:08:09
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 31, 2010, at 17:52:00
> Brian,
>
> Try not to fear the withdrawal. If you experience severe withdrawal symptoms, the taper must be too fast. You will need to go as slowly as you feel comfortable with.
>
> First of all, forget about the taper. For now, concentrate on transferring from Xanax over to Valium, which may take a few weeks if you do it in stages. Once you are stable on Valium, you can then decide if/when you want to start reducing the dose.
>
> During the withdrawal, do you think Provigil will help or make you feel overstimulated?Thanks Ed. Yes, the taper from 30mgs to 17mgs was beyond belief, and it was a SLOW taper. So there is obvious GREAT fear. Yes, I feel more comfortable with trileptal and lyrica on board, especially given that trileptal helped tapering 2 times before.
Last march, I had tapered valium 30mgs to 10mgs in 10 days, with NO effects. Then foolishly dropped the trileptal cold turkey, and i was left in a state of valium cold turkey, and raised to 30, and then had my brutal taper down to 17mgs.
I do think that provigil is for sure aggrivating me completely, naseaua and headaches, i used to think it was a miracle drug for me. Obviously with MS, my CNS is already messed up beyond belief. And with trileptal making me hypomanic in the morning, and making me drink tons of coffee, who needs provigil?
Psychotropic drugs used to work for me. i thought zyprexa, celexa, and provigil was a perfect combo, or there were always others that seemed like they were going to work. I've spent years searching for that perfect combo, or at least one that would let me function like a regular sheep/cow, i mean normal person. Well, now my brain HATES drugs and rejects them and wants nothing to do with them, and i've put myself through psychosis by the manner that I have come off of them.
Ed, do you really think i need to do my conversion in stages? I'm a dramatic guy who never follows the guidelines lol. I've been on xanax for 2 weeks. How much valium do you think i should ask the Dr for? 60mgs? I still seem to be having a bad physical reaction to the benzos right now. Could still be toxic. The first night of lyrica seemed to help ease some anxiety, especially the morning anxiety, when the interdose creeps in.
I'm thinking about this Ed. Grabbing some valium, lyrica, and trileptal, and heading to the moutains of california, where they have an organic farm that you can work on for 4-5 hours a day, in exchange for food and board. I can't think of a better way to clear my mind, get away from civilization, as this place has no electricity, and is 45 mins from the nearest paved road.
For years, it seems like my life has been trying to fit square pegs in round holes, and using psychotropic drugs to do so.
What I would give back a couple of years ago, when i returned from a detox in the middle east, and was no longer on drugs, and no longer wanted them, and was functioning fine, only to have racing thoughts after 5 days and thinking i was bipolar. who wouldn't have racing thoughts after a SERIOUS detox from stimulants, benzos, ambien etc.
Ed, this CAN NOT be my life. A battle against benzos. Are you serious? This would be my what, 6-7th withdrawal attempt, and supposed to be worse each time, and this past one could not have been worse. I had/have so much more potential to do other things in this world, than to seemingly battle this poisionous drug to me.
I've been getting serious naseaua and headaches, and it's tough to tell if it's a toxic reaction to xanax, or if it's provigil, or if it's trileptal etc. I'm just sick and psychotic, and just want it to end.
When i was healthy, there is a Zen center that i used to frequent often, and loved it. I've been too sick and crazy to attend for the past year.
Apparently, one of the new teachers, is in fact an integrative psychiatrist. So i've reached out to him about my story, and am eager to hear what he has to say.So i'm thinking lyrica, trileptal, valium, and head to the mountains and do some organic farming, what do you think? LOL.
Thanks!!!!
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 20:26:27
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:08:09
Brian who do you see for the MS can that doc prescrible specific meds for you? Love Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:27:46
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:08:09
I also used to be a big part of the benzo forums, a great contributor. Although of course, they are quite anti benzo and psychiatry in general, and yes, made me much more paranoid about my taper. A bad obsessional breeding ground.
That said, i do know, or have read of people, who had been off for a while, or had gone cold turkey, then went back on, and were just terrible sick, and had a brutal horrible taper. I fear that I am one of the few that are toxic, and am in that boat.
I wonder if we can get me over to valium, have the lyric and trileptal on board, and try to get me off. What do you think?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:36:46
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 20:26:27
> Brian who do you see for the MS can that doc prescrible specific meds for you? Love Phillipa
Phillipa, this is is what is the most frustrating part. I have a neurologist who treats the MS. I told him some dramatic was going on, and he HAD to find something. He did not think he would find anythying, i knew he would.
He did not think the psychiatric issues and the MS were related. I told him i didn't just get MS overnight, and i didn't just become crazy overnight.
I said, you didn't think u would find anything, i told you you would, I NEED you to believe in me.He said see your shrink. So the shrink at first thought it was just benzo wd psychosis. But then he said, I think is psychosis secondary to MS, and in my research, i see that 5-10 percent of MS patients experience psychosis. Nonetheless, i think they treat them the same. His last guess is just that it was schizo/bipolar, but he doesn't really think that.
The ECT did help, i think more would help. the benzos seemed to help initially, and now it feels like i'm toxic again, and i'm sure i need off quickly.
Do you know of any neuro/psychiatric people in the utah area? Do they exist?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:44:50
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 20:26:27
> Brian who do you see for the MS can that doc prescrible specific meds for you? Love Phillipa
Perhaps this is my guy. Integrative psychiatrist, who is on the board of neurology. HHMM
http://www.paulthielkingmd.com/about.php
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 21:18:48
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:36:46
Brian no I'd definitely google that one. But seems lots of docs say oh that's not my speciality see this type. I've myself experience this. I'm sorry sorry for you. What known symptoms of MS do you experience, weakness? Etc. Love Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 21:22:06
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 31, 2010, at 17:52:00
> Brian,
>
> Try not to fear the withdrawal. If you experience severe withdrawal symptoms, the taper must be too fast. You will need to go as slowly as you feel comfortable with.
>
> First of all, forget about the taper. For now, concentrate on transferring from Xanax over to Valium, which may take a few weeks if you do it in stages. Once you are stable on Valium, you can then decide if/when you want to start reducing the dose.
>
> During the withdrawal, do you think Provigil will help or make you feel overstimulated?Well, needless to say, after 6 hours after my 2mgs of xanax, i'm having interdose wd. Perhaps I take 1mg now, and another mg before bed.
What do you think about withdrawing from librium as opposed to valium?
This past summer while taper, and i couldn't leave the house, and i had to, i cracked and took 60mgs of valium. I took 20mgs, felt good for 2 hours, then oh no, needed more, took 20 more, felt good for 2 hours, then needed more.
I saw an addiction psychiatrist, and he decided on librium, because he said it did not have the self reinforcing qualities as valium did. Oh, and the valium, was making me want to drink alcohol too.
The librium was fine, i couldn't feel it, although i knew it was working, and wasn't craving more.
Only like all benzos, it made me depressed and irritable, and thinking that it would take a year or so to get off, made me go to detox.
So now my only question is, is librium or valium the best to wean off, especially given how many times i've attempted the valium taper, although it might address more MS issues.
I noticed that in the hospital when they put me on about 7 mgs of ativan, to 30 mgs of valium!! I would feel normal for about 2 hours, and then oh crap, it pooped out.
Librium or valium? does it matter?Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 21:29:12
In reply to Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 21:22:06
Although it was librium that i was on when i went to detox. After detox, i attempted to go back on, to the same dose, 200mgs, and it did not cover my withdrawal symptoms, and it was making me acutely suicidal. I knew i needed off. it appeared that i was having a toxic reaction to the librium. My mind and body were telling me not to swallow another pill.
I flew home, i dropped from 200mgs to 75mgs, i think i almost died, and then went cold turkey in september.
So really confused about which benzo to go on for my FINAL taper.
Ed? Votes people?
Valium?
Brian
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 21:53:53
In reply to Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 21:22:06
I think valium is stronger as when started benzos librium did nothing but valium relaxed me more. Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 22:07:38
In reply to Re: Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 21:53:53
> I think valium is stronger as when started benzos librium did nothing but valium relaxed me more. Phillipa
Oh yeah, i for sure "feel" valium much more than librium, don't know if that's a good thing.
Although, taking these 2mg doses of xanax, i feel NOTHING, other than getting sick, and still getting interdose wd.
I do have the option to try the xanax xr, as i will receive a discount card.
Or I can just switch back over to valium and start a taper again.
Is me being off the benzos seeming to be the number one priority for my mental health right now?
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 13:02:27
In reply to Re: Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 22:07:38
Hi Brian,
If you think Provigil might be making you worse, perhaps you should stop Provigil before changing any of your other meds.
I think a cross-taper to Valium over a couple of weeks would be sensible because they are quite different benzos and you don't want to make yourself feel any worse than you already do.
Unless you have a tendency to misuse benzos, I don't think that Librium has any particular advantages over Valium.
I think that you should stay on Trileptal for now, although perhaps you need to adjust the dose to benefit more. Aren't you getting any support from your doctor at the moment?
Ed
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 13:31:55
In reply to Re: Do you think wd from valium is better than Librium » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 13:02:27
> Hi Brian,
>
> If you think Provigil might be making you worse, perhaps you should stop Provigil before changing any of your other meds.
>
> I think a cross-taper to Valium over a couple of weeks would be sensible because they are quite different benzos and you don't want to make yourself feel any worse than you already do.
>
> Unless you have a tendency to misuse benzos, I don't think that Librium has any particular advantages over Valium.
>
> I think that you should stay on Trileptal for now, although perhaps you need to adjust the dose to benefit more. Aren't you getting any support from your doctor at the moment?
>
> EdThanks Ed. My doc offers some support, but not great.
he does know that i want to cross over to valium
I am/have dropped provigil. Who needs it when my moring trileptal gives me hypomania and i drink a pot of coffee:)
Lyrica is helping with both mood and anxiety, and hopefully perhaps in the future, withdrawal.
Trieptal is at 600, although i think tomorrow I may go 300 tid.
Some mornings i stare at all of the drugs i have acumulated. I'll look at the zyprexa, and remember feeling somewhat normal on a high dose of it, with an AD, and added provigil. Times of holding jobs, and driving. Remembering being excited about being on depaote and zyprexa, and excited to add provigil to make me feel normal and productive. Seems those days are over. That my brain hates the drugs. But it seems that life is over, and that my only normalcy might to be off the drugs. We'll see.Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 15:08:02
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 19:19:24
Interesting, now my dr said he does not want me on the trileptal, although it obviously gets me to where i can function somewhat. he said to wait, wait, wait.
He just wants me on lyrica for a week, and to abruptly to switch from xanax to valium.
Said he will not work with me like this.
Should i find a new doc?
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:25:03
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 15:08:02
Brian,
How do you know that Trileptal is causing your morning hypomania? That would be an unusual reaction. Perhaps the hypomania is not caused by the Trileptal. Although poorly researched, Trileptal would be expected to reduce manic symptoms.
>Said he will not work with me like this.
What does he mean by that?
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 16:41:13
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me? » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:25:03
> Brian,
>
> How do you know that Trileptal is causing your morning hypomania? That would be an unusual reaction. Perhaps the hypomania is not caused by the Trileptal. Although poorly researched, Trileptal would be expected to reduce manic symptoms.
>
> >Said he will not work with me like this.
>
> What does he mean by that?Trileptal has always induced morning hypomania for me. If I stop taking it, it would go away. And then like I mentioned, if I dose twice a day of trileptal, i hit a depression in the afternoon like now, then would typically hit a semi normalcy at night. I wonder about 3 doses a day.
Yes, bipolar drugs make me bipolar. Lamictal induces mixed moods in me. I could name numerous others. I have opposite reactions to all drugs, hence wanting off them. ADs make me depressed and more obsessional etc.
Perhaps I should just take the lyrica and the valium.
By not work with me like this, was after my ect, i asked for us to try trileptal, and he said no, no, no. he just put me back on xanax. Xanax alone, i can get nothing done in this world. I added some trileptal on my own account, and then of course with some hypomania, i can do some normal functioning, i can email, correspond with friends, apply for jobs etc. So he wouldn't work with me if i'm adding things on my own.
So i asked if we could raise trileptal from 600 to 900, maybe go 300 tid to see if it rids the mid day depression, and he was adimate about me not taking it.
Says just take the lyrica for a week, and be on the benzo.
Lyrica alone, i would not get swings, or hypomania, basically just high, happy, and stoned, but i could probably function.
So my dilema is to listen to him, and drop the trileptal, or go on my own accord, and up the trileptal to 900 tomorrow.
Trileptal in the past did help in benzo wd.
Trileptal was a drug that allowed me to read and concentrate in situations that are generally tough for me.
So choices, choices, choices.
I could just do the lyrica and valium, or have the trileptal in there.
What would you do?
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:55:10
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 16:41:13
It sounds like Trileptal is destabilising you. I know you feel good in the morning but don't you end up feeling worse in the afternoon?
Perhaps Lyrica would help the benzo withdrawal, although I don't know whether the benefits of Lyrica will last. If you feel stoned on Lyrica the dose may be too high.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 17:01:03
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 16:41:13
>he said no, no, no. he just put me back on xanax.
What is the lowest dose of Xanax that you can take without suffering any major withdrawal symptoms?
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:25:29
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 16:55:10
> It sounds like Trileptal is destabilising you. I know you feel good in the morning but don't you end up feeling worse in the afternoon?
>
> Perhaps Lyrica would help the benzo withdrawal, although I don't know whether the benefits of Lyrica will last. If you feel stoned on Lyrica the dose may be too high.
>
>
>Oh how i love the trilepal mornings, lol, i drink a pot of coffee, and go crazy on facebook for 2 hours. Gives me personality and humor and life back that are lost.
LOL, yes, probably trileptal, and every other drug out there destabilizes me. But having some functioning in the morning was better than none at all.
It was trileptal in fact, that started this whole mess a year ago. Although i was doing things i enjoyed, like exercising, and going to a zen center (trileptal allowed me to concentrate and meditate), but in my hypomania, i was preparing to go teach overseas, which i probably wasn't prepared for. The day i was preparing my things to leave,, hypomanic in the morning, my mother and i went for a drive, then then came the afternoon depression and irritability and racing thoughts, and i was like, wow, this drug is causing my problems. That is when i dropped it, and was left in my benzo cold turkey, and had this brutal past year of benzo wd and psychosis.
Then again, approximately 3-4 years ago, i was having a horrible time with valium withdrawal while living and teaching in china. I was depressed, and could not leave the house. i read about trileptal being used to aid benzo wd, i tried it, and i could leave the house and go on excursions, depression lifing (maybe hypomania then), and it allowed me to taper much quicker than I was. i did not even visit a benzo forum for a month, in which i was a daily visitor. But then i think the stupid dr said i was ocd (which many in benzo wd are dxed) and did not need trileptal, made me drop it, and put me on an AD, which of course made me more depressed and irritable, and i had racing thoughts and derealization, although i could keep my job, and it helped tapering partially, but home and social life were a wreck. I needed zyprexa just for the flight home from china my anxiety so high from benzo wd. I think it was 2.5-5mgs of zyprexa then, now, i could pop 30mgs zyprexa like candy.
Ed I really did not have much against lyrica (one of the few drugs i can say that about). It actually allowed me to travel, golf, go out with friends, drive long distances, which i have issues with racing thoughts. But it makes me pretty happy and social, and even keel, no ups or downs. I believe at one time, that i still needed a stimulant to be able to conentrate. But that would have to come at a later time after benzo wd. I believe when i came off of it, it was just my body, mind, intuition telling me that it did not want these foreign chemicals in them. Yes, lyrica was a false sense of well being, which is for sure welcome now, especially if i'm embarking on another benzo taper. Lyrica was the 2nd most difficult drug i ever came off, after benzos, but then again, i think i cold turkeyed it at first, and then a quick taper, too fast.My doc at the time, who had dxed me bipolar, and had tried me on every drug under the sun, and my mind and body were just telling me this wasn't/isn't right, had me up to 900mgs lyrica, which is obviously over the max. She had also at one time had me at 30mgs zyprexa. Just insane amounts of drugs to slow me down.
So I could drop the trileptal, and just see how i go with the lyrica and the valium. Or I could dose it 3 times a day, and see if it helps w/ benzo wd again.
Sorry for the long redundant stories.
I love hearing your input.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:29:15
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by ed_uk2010 on April 1, 2010, at 17:01:03
> >he said no, no, no. he just put me back on xanax.
>
> What is the lowest dose of Xanax that you can take without suffering any major withdrawal symptoms?That's hard for me to gauge at this time (especially after being in benzo cold turkey psychosis for months lol). With my 2mgs 3 times a day, i still get the interdose wds. I believe that the lyrica is helping the severity of the interdose wds.
Tomorrow I get the valium. Do you think I should try 20mgs 3x a day and see how it goes?
I can get the lyrica dose up pretty quick, as i tolerate it fine.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:38:53
In reply to thanks Ed, posted by qbsbrown on April 1, 2010, at 17:25:29
And when I did add the trileptal that helped me taper and with depression while in china, i believe it was a very low dose, maybe 150mgs 2 or 3 times a day, perhaps the reason the psych did not believe that it could be helping me at all.
I could try 150mgs 3x a day now, or just drop it all together.
Votes?
Brian
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