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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by floatingbridge on February 7, 2010, at 17:50:08
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by kirbyw on February 2, 2010, at 3:50:40
Kirby, yeah, I have pain that comes and goes. I find a Vicodin ( half to a whole 5/500) helps in every way--and it made me a little nervous to discover the mood enhancing effect.
I keep a mood chart and my doc remarked upon that--that I responded to opiates. Yeah, I said, doesn't everyone?
I have a tiny bottle and use judiciously when the back pain becomes too great. I don't need addiction issues on top of everything else.
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on February 7, 2010, at 17:59:50
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » jedi, posted by paulbwell on February 5, 2010, at 6:13:46
I'm sorry Paul. How do you think you'll address your addiction?
How long until you developed tolerance? I write my consumption down daily and share with my doc as a precaution. Still....
Good luck,
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on February 7, 2010, at 18:03:56
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by bulldog2 on February 2, 2010, at 10:48:28
Bulldog, for real pain, they are a boon. Pain causes so many other conditions ands needs to be treated. Ad effects are a bonus to enjoy.
Posted by conundrum on February 7, 2010, at 20:05:47
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by floatingbridge on February 7, 2010, at 17:50:08
<I keep a mood chart and my doc remarked upon that--that I responded to opiates. Yeah, I said, doesn't everyone?
Nope
Posted by floatingbridge on February 7, 2010, at 22:45:40
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » floatingbridge, posted by conundrum on February 7, 2010, at 20:05:47
> <I keep a mood chart and my doc remarked upon that--that I responded to opiates. Yeah, I said, doesn't everyone?
> NopeReally? I'm surprised. Hmmmm.
Posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 6:10:58
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by bulldog2 on February 7, 2010, at 13:45:24
What I took was Percodan. (The only difference between the two brand names is that Percodan has aspirin in it, while Percocet contains acetominophen.) I have never let anyone prescribe me Oxycontin because I've heard so many good things about it *LOL* that I'm afraid I'd get addicted! Maybe I should go for it next time I have the chance.
Nights were so peaceful on that ancient Percodan. I loved the sensation of sleeping literally on a cloud. It was as close to my idea of heaven as I have ever been.
> > I just posted a message about my experience with Dilaudid, but in reading your post I recalled that in 1987, when I was 24, in college, I found an old bottle of Percodan in my boyfriend's house and asked if I could take one. He can't tolerate pain meds, so he said sure, it's all yours.
> >
> > For the next two weeks I was in heaven. I hadn't been diagnosed for panic disorder at that point, but up to that point, as much as I loved college, I was scared every single day. On Percodan, however, I found that I could do anything (like speak up in class), felt 100% confident and fearless, and I did better work than I ever did before in my life. Sleep was wonderful.
> >
> > Then I ran out of pills the night before I had to go to a day-long seminar. I was a wreck. All the magic was dead and gone. It didn't take long for me to withdraw, but I really wanted to try it again, so I went to my boyfriend's dentist, feigning a toothache, and he prescribed me some more.
> >
> > Strangely, the Percodan I got this time (compared to the vintage bottle from c. 1982), made me sick to my stomach and barely produced any worthwhile buzz. I've noticed that about nearly all prescription opiates since then. Were drug companies forced to add a component to produce nausea instead of euphoria in order to discourage addiction? It sure discouraged me from taking any more Percodan.
> >
> > But what I wouldn't give to feel that good again....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi Guys,
> > > Every time I have taken opioids short term, they have helped my depression. I'm sure that many of the addicts using street drugs or fraudulently obtained prescription medications are self medicating for depression.
> > >
> > > My question is: Has anybody, currently on this board, ever obtained long term relief from major depression using opioids? Any positive or negative experiences will be appreciated.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jedi
> > >
> >
> >
>
> I agree with you. Did you get real percocet or one of the many generics out there? Some of them are real crappy.
>
> Brand name oxycontin which has the same naroctic ingrediant as perocet (oxycodone) is very nice.
Posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 6:17:26
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by floatingbridge on February 7, 2010, at 22:45:40
Great comment, floatingbridge...I sure responded to them! ;)
Did you create your own mood chart or did someone give you one to fill in? I love the concept!
> > <I keep a mood chart and my doc remarked upon that--that I responded to opiates. Yeah, I said, doesn't everyone?
> > Nope
>
> Really? I'm surprised. Hmmmm.
>
>
Posted by conundrum on February 8, 2010, at 7:00:44
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by floatingbridge on February 7, 2010, at 22:45:40
Sad but true. Atleast for me. I truly don't understand it either. I also have some low grade joint pains like many depressives and they don't help much with that either.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 8, 2010, at 9:25:47
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » floatingbridge, posted by conundrum on February 8, 2010, at 7:00:44
> Sad but true. Atleast for me. I truly don't understand it either. I also have some low grade joint pains like many depressives and they don't help much with that either.
Conundrum, that is odd, and I'm sorry, too. Have you found things that do work for you?
I'm so curious I'm going to run this by my pdoc. Anything interesting and I'll. post back.
fb
Posted by bulldog2 on February 8, 2010, at 9:51:14
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » conundrum, posted by floatingbridge on February 8, 2010, at 9:25:47
> > Sad but true. Atleast for me. I truly don't understand it either. I also have some low grade joint pains like many depressives and they don't help much with that either.
>
> Conundrum, that is odd, and I'm sorry, too. Have you found things that do work for you?
>
> I'm so curious I'm going to run this by my pdoc. Anything interesting and I'll. post back.
>
> fbThere is a hypothesis that some depressions may be caused by a shortage of endogenous opoids. That's why some people say painkillers have no effect on their mood and other people respond well to them.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 8, 2010, at 10:26:57
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » floatingbridge, posted by bulldog2 on February 8, 2010, at 9:51:14
> > > Sad but true. Atleast for me. I truly don't understand it either. I also have some low grade joint pains like many depressives and they don't help much with that either.
> >
> > Conundrum, that is odd, and I'm sorry, too. Have you found things that do work for you?
> >
> > I'm so curious I'm going to run this
by my pdoc. Anything interesting and I'll. post back.
> >
> > fb
>
> There is a hypothesis that some depressions may be caused by a shortage of endogenous opoids. That's
why some people say painkillers have no effect on their mood and other people respond well to them.Oh. Endogenous--not related to endorphins? I'll Google.
Thnx Bulldog
Posted by bulldog2 on February 8, 2010, at 18:16:08
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » bulldog2, posted by floatingbridge on February 8, 2010, at 10:26:57
> > > > Sad but true. Atleast for me. I truly don't understand it either. I also have some low grade joint pains like many depressives and they don't help much with that either.
> > >
> > > Conundrum, that is odd, and I'm sorry, too. Have you found things that do work for you?
> > >
> > > I'm so curious I'm going to run this
> by my pdoc. Anything interesting and I'll. post back.
> > >
> > > fb
> >
> > There is a hypothesis that some depressions may be caused by a shortage of endogenous opoids. That's
> why some people say painkillers have no effect on their mood and other people respond well to them.
>
> Oh. Endogenous--not related to endorphins? I'll Google.
>
> Thnx Bulldog
>No endogenous means made within your body. There are opiate receptors in your body and the body makes its own opiates (endogenous) for these receptors. perhaps some do not make enough of these feel good neurotransmitters. I guess these opiates are what you referred to as endorphins.
Posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 19:08:38
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by bulldog2 on February 8, 2010, at 18:16:08
Fascinating discussion! One would think that if some kinds of depression are relieved by opioids, doctors would prescribe it more often instead of screwing around with SSRIs and NSRIs, etc, which made me really sick.
Do opiates stimulate the endorphins, create more endorphins, or just hit the pleasure center in one's brain? I know next to nothing about the structure or chemistry of the brain, so forgive me if my questions sound really stupid. Couldn't someone invent a drug that stimulates endorphin production without doping people up or making them sick?
> > > There is a hypothesis that some depressions may be caused by a shortage of endogenous opoids. That's
> > why some people say painkillers have no effect on their mood and other people respond well to them.
> >
> > Oh. Endogenous--not related to endorphins? I'll Google.
> >
> > Thnx Bulldog
> >
>
> No endogenous means made within your body. There are opiate receptors in your body and the body makes its own opiates (endogenous) for these receptors. perhaps some do not make enough of these feel good neurotransmitters. I guess these opiates are what you referred to as endorphins.
Posted by Sigismund on February 8, 2010, at 20:28:38
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » bulldog2, posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 19:08:38
>One would think that if some kinds of depression are relieved by opioids, doctors would prescribe it more often instead of screwing around with SSRIs and NSRIs, etc, which made me really sick.
One might think that (on one's better days).
My psych summed it up by saying of the opiate receptor: That's the devils receptor (quite unlike those other respectable receptors).
Posted by conundrum on February 8, 2010, at 20:36:50
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » conundrum, posted by floatingbridge on February 8, 2010, at 9:25:47
So far I haven't found anything that works, but I haven't tried all that much yet. Fingers crossed.
Posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 23:51:45
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by Sigismund on February 8, 2010, at 20:28:38
The devil, you say? ;)
Better the devil you know....
> >One would think that if some kinds of depression are relieved by opioids, doctors would prescribe it more often instead of screwing around with SSRIs and NSRIs, etc, which made me really sick.
>
> One might think that (on one's better days).
>
> My psych summed it up by saying of the opiate receptor: That's the devils receptor (quite unlike those other respectable receptors).
Posted by bulldog2 on February 9, 2010, at 9:00:14
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » bulldog2, posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 19:08:38
> Fascinating discussion! One would think that if some kinds of depression are relieved by opioids, doctors would prescribe it more often instead of screwing around with SSRIs and NSRIs, etc, which made me really sick.
>
> Do opiates stimulate the endorphins, create more endorphins, or just hit the pleasure center in one's brain? I know next to nothing about the structure or chemistry of the brain, so forgive me if my questions sound really stupid. Couldn't someone invent a drug that stimulates endorphin production without doping people up or making them sick?
>
>
>
> > > > There is a hypothesis that some depressions may be caused by a shortage of endogenous opoids. That's
> > > why some people say painkillers have no effect on their mood and other people respond well to them.
> > >
> > > Oh. Endogenous--not related to endorphins? I'll Google.
> > >
> > > Thnx Bulldog
> > >
> >
> > No endogenous means made within your body. There are opiate receptors in your body and the body makes its own opiates (endogenous) for these receptors. perhaps some do not make enough of these feel good neurotransmitters. I guess these opiates are what you referred to as endorphins.
>
>opiates just stimulate the opiate receptors. They also cause your body to shut down making its own supply.
Posted by Sigismund on February 9, 2010, at 14:46:05
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by bulldog2 on February 9, 2010, at 9:00:14
>They also cause your body to shut down making its own supply.
Unlike those other receptors?
Posted by floatingbridge on February 9, 2010, at 14:58:43
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » bulldog2, posted by Sigismund on February 9, 2010, at 14:46:05
Ummm. Okay, I'll say it. LDN for depression, esp w/ pain or autoimmune?
(I know there's a thread going right now about it....)
curious,
fb
Also wiki listed non-opoid pain meds I was unfamiliar with. Under 'endogenous opoids'. Also read that opoids are safe pain relief IF managed well, including dosages not exceeding relief levels, regular rotation of meds, and augmentors. But most of you know that already.
Anyone on this thread try LDN--or is that the wrong tree I'm barking under?
Posted by Sigismund on February 9, 2010, at 15:41:57
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression, posted by floatingbridge on February 9, 2010, at 14:58:43
I think I might profit from LDN but my reservation is the sleep angle. My sleep is fragile but OK at the moment and I'm fairly sure LDN would worsen things before they got better.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 9, 2010, at 18:05:41
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » floatingbridge, posted by Sigismund on February 9, 2010, at 15:41:57
> I think I might profit from LDN but my reservation is the sleep angle. My sleep is fragile but OK at the moment and I'm fairly sure LDN would worsen things before they got better.
Yeah, a concern of mine as well--or if I'd wake terribly anxious. Still....
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2010, at 19:59:18
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » Sigismund, posted by floatingbridge on February 9, 2010, at 18:05:41
Tea has a lot of info on ldn. Used with a lot of autoimmune diseases from what l.5-4mg? Love Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on February 9, 2010, at 20:10:45
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2010, at 19:59:18
Phillipa, you haven't tried it? I'm following Tea's and Cassie's thread. My pdoc hadn't heard of it. Someone I know with PD was looking into it.
fb
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2010, at 21:31:06
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on February 9, 2010, at 20:10:45
FB no I haven't. I had saved a great post. Deleted it recently. You can find it as was on babble. Google TeaLady. Love Phillipa
Posted by kirbyw on February 9, 2010, at 23:12:53
In reply to Re: Opioids for Depression » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2010, at 21:31:06
I think we are all missing something in this discussion.
1) I would agree that in the worst cases of endogenous depression where the person is acutely suicidal that opioids would probably be of use, but only until an anti-depressive could kick in.
2) The problem with the opioids is that you feel good "for no reason" This was very dangerous in my case, as instead of instigating behaviors that would improve my life, I was content to just sit around and "feel good," and this on a very small dose of Vicodin only about 1 or 2 pills per day.
It took away that horrible depressed feeling and made me feel relaxed and confident. But the next morning I had to do it again, and the next afternoon etc. This was happening from last July until January 6th, the day that I took my last Vicodin.So there is some biochemical property of these artificial opioids that has a temporary effect, but doesn't stimulate any kind of permanent change in neurotransmitters. And it also gives you a false sense of well being. In extremes people on these drugs, feel great as we know, while they lose weight, lose their jobs, steal money from their families, etc.
3) Even worse, your mind/body creates symptoms which cause you to have cravings for the drug.
These can be psychosomatic, in my case a sensation of shortness of breath, or my supposedly incapaciting prostate pain. Well, now that I am 33 days without Vicodin, the shortness of breath has almost completely disappeared. And the severe prostate pain when sitting is managed by 1 extra strength Tylenol.
In fact, sometimes if I forget to take the Tylenol the pain seems minimal anyway. I have not to take more than 3 tylenols in any one day.Before, I always would be conscious of the pain, and would immediately take half a vicodin if i thought I would be sitting on a hard chair, or on a plane, or in a theater etc. for more than a few minutes. I took these pills for seven years. During that time certain aspects of my life went ok, but I was constantly feeling good on a low dose of Vicodin.
When the time came for me to take steps to respond to some crises in my life, my response was to relax and take the Vicodin and more or less ignore the impending disaster. And those disasters led to my first severe depression in over 20 years. So then I was taking the Vicodin
just get out of bed in the morning, to get something done etc. I was on Parnate, but I was feeling "too good". I was self medicating my depression with an opiate, and creating a sense of well being based on nothing.Only since I stopped the Vicodin have I returned to a point where I am trying to really solve my real life problems. I found a therapist, I am going to Narcotics Anonymous groups, and to another mental health support group, etc. I am much more active generally and this contributes to a sense of well being that I hope is far more significant for my life, than the "well being" I felt on the drug.
As the crisis became worse, the use of Vicodin was, I feel, creating or at the very least enhancing the symptoms of depression, so as to
"trick" me into taking some more Vicodin. Its hard to explain, but thats how I see.Now I am taking only Parnate, and I am do so many more things focused on improving my life than I was previously. I still feel bad on some days, I adjust the dosage of Parnate and can improve my mood rather quickly, although the higher the dose the more insomnia that I have. But that's a different issue.
The term "self-medicating for depression" with drugs or alcohol is used all the time. It is actually a meaningless catch all phrase, until it is defined in terms of what is going on very specifically with a given individual.
By the way, I had Vicodin cravings every day for the first week I stopped taking it. The depression was worse, even with Parnate, I had shortness of breath, pain in my chest, pain when sitting. Gradually this has diminished and now I just realize that these are symptoms of Vicodin withdrawl. In any case, if I really think they are "real" I can always go to the Doctor.
Vicodin has a strong mind/body effect. Perhaps there should be an investigation into how to create a codeine based anti-depressant that will not have this effect. But I think that this may be almost impossible.
One final example: When I was hospitalized for a severe endogenous depression in 1982, before I had ever taken parnate, the psychoanalytically oriented Psychiatrist at the hospital decided to give me a "sodium pentathol interview" in order to dig into my childhood or whatever. For one hour, I was only semi-concious. I didn't recover any signficant childhood memories but I remember that I felt, normal for the first time in two years, that is to say the endogenous physical pain of the depression disappeared on the sodium pentathol interview. The Doctor thought that this was some kind of catharsis because I kept saying "I can feel. I feel normal" etc. etc. Well, about an hour after the interview was over, and the drug wore off, I felt exactly the same pain that I had been feeling before this experience. The physiological effects of the Pentathol wore off and that was the end of feeling good. Now if good old Dr. Freud had given me a small dose of Pentathol every hour or so, I probably could have continued to feel better, but I would have to have been hooked up to a sodium pentathol machine for the rest of my life. It was a different drug, parnate, (in a different hospital with a different Doctor) that got me out of the depression.
I regret that I used Vicodin for almost seven years, even though I functioned adequately most of that time. The end result was as I have said a severe crisis and a relapse into endogenous depression.
The Vicodin was orignally prescribed for the prostate pain when sitting. And I got letters from a pain clinic enabling me to continue to get Vicodin prescriptions from other Doctors. For all I know I could have gotten by on Tylenol the whole time.
Rick in Costa rica.
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