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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Honore on April 7, 2007, at 12:06:32
In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:00:42
You can read up on the tofu stuff, but mostly if he says in the refrigerator for a few days, I'd assume that he means you can buy it and then keep it for a few days.
You're probably making it more complicated than it is, on that one. Just take it at face value.
You'll be okay, if you're careful. Just take your BP, if you feel at all concerned. You'll probably find that it's okay.
They have home BP cuffs for sale in most drugstores around here. They work adequately and are easy to use. Just wrap the cuff around your upper arm, as it illustrates, and it either self-inflates or you inflate it-- and let it go down. There's a digital read-out.
But mostly-- don't overthink this. Just read labels, ask questions if you have any-- and remember that the warnings are there because there's a risk-- but that many people take MAOIs for many years with no problem. I did. It's just a matter of getting a few things clear in your mind, which you will.
Honore
Posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:10:16
In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by Honore on April 7, 2007, at 12:06:32
Thanx for the encouragement. It is easy (for me) to over think (obsess might be another description.)
Do you know how long after eating a troublesome food you can expect a reaction.
I will get a cuff this afternoon!
Zana
Posted by jkshrews on April 8, 2007, at 22:47:39
In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:10:16
Zana,
The difference between soy milk and tofu or soy sauce is that the latter two have been subject to fermentation. Soy milk (or ice cream) has not.
However, I eat home-fermented yogurt constantly with no problem. I have seen it on some lists of banned items, but it certainly doesn't bother me.
The immediate sign of a problem is a headache accompanied by a stiff neck. I have had to take my emergency med (clorpromazine) twice. Both times, it was after drinking red wine. So I have eliminated that from my diet.
A reaction can come pretty fast--within a half hour to an hour after eating the offending item. And of course, eating it on an empty stomach will make it happen faster.
The really dangerous thing is not food so much as decongestants. If you were to take a cold pill containing a decongestant, you could be in real trouble.
I recently went to a minor emergency clinic because of a week-end recurrence of a sinus infection. I gave the doctor a written list of all my meds. He wrote me a script for a second-line antibiotic, and I went straight to the drug store.
The pharmacist said, "Do you want this Entex prescription filled also?" I said, "What??!!" On the same form with the antibiotic, the doctor had written me a prescription for a very strong decongestant that probably would have killed me.
I called the clinic and said, "I did not get the Entex, because I think I am too young to die!"
I have learned that I have to watch out for myself. These guys are busy pushing patients through the clinic, and they goof up on their jobs just like everyone else does.
I am going to list it with my drug allergies, of which I have one to sulfas. I will add "No sympathomimetics permitted." That will tell the doctor he cannot use or prescribe anything that looks chemically like adrenaline.
jkshrews
> Thanx for the encouragement. It is easy (for me) to over think (obsess might be another description.)
>
> Do you know how long after eating a troublesome food you can expect a reaction.
>
> I will get a cuff this afternoon!
>
> Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 8:35:57
In reply to Re: MAOI diet » zana, posted by jkshrews on April 8, 2007, at 22:47:39
Dear jkshrews,
Thanks you for the helpful information about yogurt. I don't make my own but I do eat soy yogurt from the store. I have started buying the 8oz size, so much more expensive, instead of the quart just to be sure its fresh. You don't mention tofu which I eat (or used to eat) sliced with oil and vinegar.
What a scary story about the decongestant. I guess its another example of how important it is to take care of ourselves and depend on educating ourselves.
Anybody tried to eat fresh soy beans? It seems to me they should be fine since they are not fermented.
Posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 9:35:55
In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 8:35:57
Zana,
Yes, tofu and soy sauce are both fermented, but fresh, dried, and toasted soy beans are not.
The only beans to avoid are fava beans. These are very high in L-tryptophan, which is a precursor for your brain hormone serotonin. The MAOI works partly by slowing up the clearance of serotonin from your nerve synapses. So if one eats fava beans while taking an MAOI, it can cause a big serotonin overload in the body's nervous systems, which can be deadly.
Are you doing a pure-veg diet? If so, I would really encourage you to add some milk to your regime. A pure-veg diet has almost no vitamin B-12 (cobalamine) in it. It doesn't cause a big immediate problem, because the liver can store it for years, but a woman on pure-veg cannot breast feed a baby. The body will refuse to give up any of its precious little B-12 supply, and the baby will get a bad vitamin deficiency.
jkshrews
> Dear jkshrews,
> Thanks you for the helpful information about yogurt. I don't make my own but I do eat soy yogurt from the store. I have started buying the 8oz size, so much more expensive, instead of the quart just to be sure its fresh. You don't mention tofu which I eat (or used to eat) sliced with oil and vinegar.
> What a scary story about the decongestant. I guess its another example of how important it is to take care of ourselves and depend on educating ourselves.
> Anybody tried to eat fresh soy beans? It seems to me they should be fine since they are not fermented.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 9, 2007, at 13:31:43
In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 9:35:55
It's my understanding that fresh tofu is fine, but marinated is not. I assume that is because the marination extends the "shelf life" of the tofu and would then lead to increased tyramine levels.
Now I don't eat tofu, so I can't speak from personal experience. But I feel confident about this info. I don't have a link to an old thread, but I'm sure it's here somewhere in the archives.
Namaste
gg
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:48
I am a newbie to MAOIs and also a vegan. Anybody on MAOIs have experience eating tofu, fresh soy beans (edemame) or taking ginseng? I take a suppliment with 250mgs of siberian ginseng. Anybody have a problem with any of these foods?
Or are they OK?
Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:52
In reply to MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 9:21:44
You've probably had lots of references to lists of allowed/disallowed foods. I noticed that this page had further lnks that explained in more detail which soybean foods are all right.
http://www.pccnaturalmarkets.com/health/Diet/Tyramine_Free_Diet.htm
Ginseng isn't okay, from what I remember.
Honore
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:59
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17
Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!
Posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 11:27:51
Selegiline metabolizes to D-amphetamine and methamphetamine, which are good antidepressants in and of themselves. Because they require MAO to be eliminated, and the selegiline has it suppressed, they will build up to a higher level than they would have otherwise. Some appetite suppression and insomnia may occur, but you may get over it in time. I take Rozerem at 9 PM nightly to help with the sleep cycle, and I have Sonata on hand to take occassionally if I awaken after only three or four hours of sleep.
jkshrews
> Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
> Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!
Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43
A small amount of seroquel is also useful, if rozerem and/or ambien aren't enough.
Sonata is particularly good if you wake up with a few hours left to sleep, since it has a very short half-life.
I recommend Emsam, but of course, there are many individual factors that affect which drug is best. jkshrews is probably right, that the sleep issues subside'; I'm not sure they go away completely, but the extra energy from Emsam makes them more manageable.
Parnate also has some amphetamine-like breakdown products, so it should give you energy. Didn't work that way for me-- but does for many people.
Honore
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:06:44
In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by gardenergirl on April 9, 2007, at 13:31:43
Then you for the information. Tofu is actually wonderful just sliced up with oil and vinegar. I'll see if I can find the information on marination.
namaste
Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:09:10
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17
Honore,
jkshrews gave me this link too. It is a good link. I don't think all that much research has been done on soy and MAOIs but this one is pretty complete.
Thank you.
Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:14:22
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43
I take seroquel at night (25mg) and have had to double the dose some nights. It would be great if this was an early side effect that passed! I could live with the wide dreams but not the no sleep.
Thanx again,
Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:17:30
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03
Having been on every other antidepressant in the world, including Provigil, the energy really is amazing and what a relief!
I'm so used to the seroquel that the double dose doesn't bother me much. I also take klonpin but I hate to increase it because it is sooo hard to get off.
Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:25:14
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43
ps.
Thanx for the tip on Rozerem. It sounds like a good drug, maybe a better choice than the seroquel. I am taking soo many things and my pdoc is a real stickler for one change at a time but I'd like to give this one a try. I am not wide about the new atypical antipsychotics. Maybe it's just that I'd rather not be in that class of meds. I'm also taking abilify and would like to discontnue that. Am going to have to wait until I've finished getting used to the Emsam I think.
Thanx again.
Zana.
Where did you get the infor on the metabolites? No wonder it's stimulating!
Posted by jkshrews on April 10, 2007, at 7:28:22
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:25:14
Zana,
If you have bipolar disorder, it might be really important to stick with the Abilify or the Seroquel. (But I can't figure out why you are taking them both.) Both are effective anti-manics, and Seroquel is now approved to treat bipolar depression. For a person with BD, this would be a primary treatment, and EMSAM would be only an adjunct. If you have high irritability (which is really just dysphoric hypomania) I think the Seroquel or Abilify is right on target. I don't know how well it works for euphoric types. If you are thinking of it as a sleep med, that is just a side-effect. (You could just as well take Benedryl for the same side-effect.)
These agents should not be called "atypical antipsychotics," which is why I call them "antimanics" when used in the context of BD. Better yet would be to call them by some common feature of chemical structure, as is the case with benzodiazepines, tricyclics, etc., rather than by disease conditions they are currently used to treat.
Info on the breakdown process of any drug can be found in the package insert in a section on clinical pharmacology. It assumes you know the related biochemistry. What the insert won't usually tell you is little facts such as Parnate is different from D-amphetamine by only a single chemical bond and, in addition to being an MAOI, it is active at the same receptor site as D-amphetamine.
People with BD frequently have a very fragile circadian rhythm that is easily upset by exposure to artificial lighting after sunset. In fact, the manic-depressive aspect of the disorder, i.e., mood cycling, might be caused largely by artificial lighting. Some experiments have shown that if a person with BD is placed in an environment with a purely natural day-night lighting cycle, the mood cycling aspect of the disorder trails off and goes away in about 6 months. Rozerem (rameltheon) simulates a total black-out by activating the melatonin receptors in the brain. I say it cancels the "Thomas Edison effect." So it is conceivable that it might be an effective remedy for mood cycling if taken very regularly over the long course of time. It is still important to turn off unnecessary lights in the evening, maybe wear sunglasses if you watch TV, etc. (Or don't watch TV, read email, etc., after 7 PM) A very helpful book about sleep hygiene is "The Promise of Sleep."
Rozerem does not make you go to sleep. It just makes it possible to sleep after a week or two of regular use, if you have a disturbed circadian rhythm. Although it might genuinely help you if you need it, it is not sedating and will not directly counteract the amphetamine effect of EMSAM or Parnate. It will just shut off the lights.
There is another melatonin-oriented drug called Valdoxan (agomelatine), but I don't know if it is out yet or how they intend to use it.
jkshrews
> ps.
> Thanx for the tip on Rozerem. It sounds like a good drug, maybe a better choice than the seroquel. I am taking soo many things and my pdoc is a real stickler for one change at a time but I'd like to give this one a try. I am not wide about the new atypical antipsychotics. Maybe it's just that I'd rather not be in that class of meds. I'm also taking abilify and would like to discontnue that. Am going to have to wait until I've finished getting used to the Emsam I think.
> Thanx again.
> Zana.
> Where did you get the infor on the metabolites? No wonder it's stimulating!
Posted by zana on April 10, 2007, at 9:20:18
In reply to Sleep Issues--EMSAM, Abilify, Seroquel, Rozerem, posted by jkshrews on April 10, 2007, at 7:28:22
I was put on both abilify and seroquel as antidepressant augementation. I found the abilify (2mg) gave me a lift, ( I get vegetative symptoms,) but also made me hypoglycemic and pooped out after a month or so. I am still on it just because my pdoc is so careful about changing only one thing at a time. I don't know if the seroquel had any therapeutic effect but it knocks me out and helped me regulate my sleep cycle.
I would like to get off the abilify simply because I suspect it is making no contribution and the ensam seems to be doing a good job so far. This is about 10weeks in.
I too read the product insert but I don't read the chemistry careful. I skim for the half life and elimination data.
I think you make a really good point about the classification of meds. Abilify is actually listed as a tranquillizer in the online search engine I use.
Zana
Posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by Kneeko on January 14, 2006, at 3:09:34
> K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
>
>
> Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
>
>
> The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
>
>
> If Nardil helps, giving these up will be no problem, but just wondering what Fast Food is Go and what isn't from the Major Chains. Obviously straight soy products and many cheeses are out. One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable inputCan someone please answer the above question regarding eating soybean oil while taking Nardil. I am planning on starting Nardil in a few days and have found that most of the foods I eat have soybean oil listed in the ingredients. Do you find the diet too restrictive to warrant the medications? Thanks in advance for your help.
Posted by jkshrews on August 6, 2008, at 8:13:14
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04
You have probably read that soy sauce is a problem. That is because it is aged and thus contains a good deal of tyramine. It is nothing inherent in soy beans. Soy bean oil is not a problem.
> > K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
> >
> >
> > Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
> >
> >
> > The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
> >
> >
> > If Nardil helps, giving these up will be no problem, but just wondering what Fast Food is Go and what isn't from the Major Chains. Obviously straight soy products and many cheeses are out. One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input
>
> Can someone please answer the above question regarding eating soybean oil while taking Nardil. I am planning on starting Nardil in a few days and have found that most of the foods I eat have soybean oil listed in the ingredients. Do you find the diet too restrictive to warrant the medications? Thanks in advance for your help.
>
>
Posted by mickapoo on August 6, 2008, at 9:25:09
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04
> > K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
> >
> >
> > Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
> >
> >
> > The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
> >
> >
>> One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input
>Whether the diet is too restrictive to warrant taking the medication is a personal choice- personally I would live on fresh veggies, fresh fruit, and lean meats alone if I had to just to get out & stay out of a dark hole. It just depends on how much your condition is affecting your life, and how much you are willing to sacrifice to change it.
Regarding the whey protein- I did read that "protein supplements" are a no-no, but I asked my pharmacist and she said they were ok, but seeing as they have often time been proven wrong, I decided to start with a little bit and work my "whey" up (lol). I started with quarter scoop, then half scoop, now have realized I can have my protein shakes with no ill effects.
Posted by mickapoo on August 6, 2008, at 9:28:26
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on August 6, 2008, at 8:13:14
> You have probably read that soy sauce is a problem. That is because it is aged and thus contains a good deal of tyramine. It is nothing inherent in soy beans. Soy bean oil is not a problem.
>
> > > K, just started the MAOI Nardil and must have your valued feedback on this.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it ok to eat foods containing Soybean oil or Partially hydronated Soybean oil? Fast food is good every once awhile, not everyday of course. Most of it contains one of these ingredients: Soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, or processed American cheese(ex:french fries, burger, Big Mac and so forth). What is your opinion of them?
> > >
> > >
> > > The list is right here: http://www.dietriot.com/fff/mcd/mcd.html#SANDWICH
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously straight soy products and many cheeses are out. One additional question is whether Whey protein is ok! Thank you for your valuable input
> >I have found the same to be true- soy products are ok, it's soy sauce that is the problem.
Posted by bobbiedobbs on August 7, 2008, at 1:10:16
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04
I wouldn't worry at all about soybean oil in fast food products. I've taken MAOIs for over 20 years and eaten hundreds of times at fast food chains with nary an incident. You may wish to refer to any of the numerous studies of MAOs and soy and soy-based products.
Please don't stay away from MAOIs because of the circa 1970 dietary restrictions, many of which, unfortunately, are still in circulation. Some of these lists would have you avoid things like chocolate, raspberries, pizzas (including cheese/pepperoni ones) from major chains like Pizza Hut and Dominos, processed cheese slices, bottled or canned beer, and virtually all alcohol - the evidence nonewithstanding. You should avail yourself of the more recent (mid 90's) and beyond MAOI dietary lists from places like Univ Sunnybrook at Toronto.
That said, it is always better to err on the safe side re these medications, because of the potential consequences. Hopefully some of the other posters on this list can advise you accordingly. Good luck. While the side effects are to be reckoned with, if they can be tolerated this can be very helpful medication.
Phil
Posted by jkshrews on August 7, 2008, at 7:43:56
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by AZLIZZY on August 6, 2008, at 3:30:04
The only thing I have ever heard of someone have a food reaction to was chianti wine.
The really dangerous thing would be to take a cold or allergy pill (or alkaselter plus) that contained a decongestant. As I recall, 20 or so people died from hypertensive crisis while taking Parnate (the most dangerous MAOI), and I would bet that most of them died from taking a decongestant of some sort.
Posted by blueboy on August 7, 2008, at 11:28:05
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on August 7, 2008, at 7:43:56
> The only thing I have ever heard of someone have a food reaction to was chianti wine.
>
> The really dangerous thing would be to take a cold or allergy pill (or alkaselter plus) that contained a decongestant. As I recall, 20 or so people died from hypertensive crisis while taking Parnate (the most dangerous MAOI), and I would bet that most of them died from taking a decongestant of some sort.I'm pretty sure there have been Nardil deaths from Demerol.
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