![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 67. Go back in thread:
Posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 19:09:26
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug » Quintal, posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 18:51:08
schizophrenia.com lists an awful lot of articles about studies which beg to differ about marijuana never causing any brain abnormalities. There also are supposedly so many types of and causes of "schizophrenia" that some people propose tossing out the term altogether- it's too broad and vague. But I do know, coincidence or not, that a few people who I've known for a long time have become quite "off" with their reasoning after being chronic smokers for a very long time. A little paranoid about government plots, sure they are about to become wildly famous and rich, that occupants of UFOs, logically, are amongst us...stuff like that. Whether or not that counts as schizophrenia, I can't say, but it's pretty sad. There's heavy evidence for an association, though yes, to say "marijuana will cause schizophrenia" is a little oversimplistic. And definately, plenty of people smoke tons, essentially unscathed.
The pcp risk is out there, too. You just don't always know what you're getting. A lot of people mistake their pcp laced weed for good pot, because they just can't seem to tell the difference.
> Schizophrenia is more than a temporary alteration of biochemical functioning. There are real, structural differences in the brain's of schizohrenic patients. Such abnormalities have never been linked to marajuanna use.
Posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 19:36:19
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug, posted by laima on December 28, 2006, at 19:09:26
>schizophrenia.com lists an awful lot of articles >about studies which beg to differ about >marijuana never causing any brain abnormalities.
I'll take a look. It depends on what you call brain abnormalities. It also depends on who you talk to. Its clear that the brain functions differently while on it, but I've never seen anything conclusive saying that marajuanna use is associated with any particular kind of dammage. There is a *lot* of polydrug use too. So a meth/marajuanna user might have his brain dammage unjustly attributed to marajuanna. Some might also argue that people who use marajuanna might have other lifestyle factors that might negatively influence brain health. (Ie my pot smoking friend only eats Kraft Dinner, and drinks Jolt). Animal studies havn't conclusevly shown anything, except when very high doses are used.
Certain constiuents are actully supposedly neuroprotective. The university I am going to is studying one constiuent for neuroprotection in alzheimers. (Now I know that the substance needs to be studied as a whole)
>But I do know, coincidence
>or not, that a few people who I've known for a >long time have become quite "off" with their >reasoning after being chronic smokers for a very >long time. A little paranoid about government >plots, sure they are about to become wildly >famous and rich, that occupants of UFOs, >logically, are amongst us...stuff like that.
Are these people smoking when they display this behavior, or do they display it after a fair time of abstainance?>Whether or not that counts as schizophrenia, I >can't say, but it's pretty sad. There's heavy >evidence for an association, though yes, to >say "marijuana will cause schizophrenia" is a >little oversimplistic. And definately, plenty of >people smoke tons, essentially unscathed.
There are a number of other drugs that can cause psychosis. I had a mild break on high doses of TCA's. My roomate also heard voices when the school doctors prescribed ritalin. Psychosis is a documented side effect of ritalin, but its not taken off the marked for this side effect.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2006, at 19:52:25
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug » Quintal, posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 18:51:08
Link years ago I smoked it once with some guy who only let me have three puffs of it and was drinking beer. I felt on fire with desire only time in my life and the guy did not turn me on at all. I at least didn't do something I would have regretted. When I left felt like I was flying in my car like an airplane. The next morning I taught an aerobics class and couldn't care less what happened not me obviously and then that night teaching again I felt like I crashed to the ground and was back to me. The me who wasn't depressed and anxious then. How is this possible? Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 21:35:24
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug » Quintal, posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 18:51:08
>Schizophrenia is more than a temporary alteration of biochemical functioning.
How do you know?
>There are real, structural differences in the brain's of schizophrenic patients. Such abnormalities have never been linked to marijuana use.
There are real structural differences between the brains of healthy people. Few cases of schizophrenia have ever been conclusively linked to pathological brain structure.
>I don't recommend getting stoned or even high. For me, a few puffs is more than enough to kill anxiety and insomnia, without getting high at all.
How can you tell the difference? I was using the word stoned as a general adjective for marijuana intoxication.
>Do you have any relatives with schizophrenia or schizophrenic like illnesses?
No, there's no family history of schizophrenia as far as I'm aware, but some have autistic traits.
>I have had residual effects from prescription drugs. For instance, lithium + SSRI's was very trippy. I thought the railway crossing barriers were swords of giant soldiers.
That sounds like a 'seeing as' hallucination, or delusion? I was alarmed to read in my dothiepin patient information leaflet of the risk that it could "precipitate schizophrenia". Many OTC cough and cold remedies containing diphenhydramine and dextromethorphan carry a similar risk so this isn't just 'War on Drugs' propaganda. Marijuana does trigger psychotic episodes in some people - I think that's a better way of describing what happens to those unfortunate people rather than 'causing schizophrenia'.
>Thats kinda why I encourage the medicinal use of it. At least people know then what they are getting
I agree, but even then some people have had psychotic reactions to nabilone and medical grade marijuana. The only drug that I have ever had full blown hallucinations with though is Ambien - I saw little elves dancing around a maypole on my quilt cover.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2006, at 21:50:10
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug » linkadge, posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 21:35:24
Quintal little elves? I'd tell you what my 70 year old neighbor did in the night to her husband but it wouldn't be civil but involved sex. Her husband was a happy man. Plus she went to the freezer took a gallon of ice cream back to the bedroom with bowls and spoons and ate it all and doesn't remember it at all. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 22:54:20
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2006, at 21:50:10
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2006, at 23:05:45
In reply to :-) Ambien (-: (nm) » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 22:54:20
Wasn't hard to figure out or it had to be oops. Love Phillipa
Posted by Simcha on December 28, 2006, at 23:55:50
In reply to Marijuana, the Anti-Drug, posted by notfred on December 28, 2006, at 4:48:07
I live in California. Marijuana is so easy to get because it's legal medicine. Yet I'd have to say that in my experience, this isn't the miracle drug that some in NORML make it out to be.
As for me, I've tried the stuff because, well, it's ubiquitous here in the Bay Area and some around here told me it would be good for my depression. It's so easy to find someone with a Medical Marijuana Card who will go to a cannabis club to buy you the good stuff. You can even pick from many kinds of the stuff. Cannabis Club owners here recommend certain types for certain kinds of ills.
Believe me, I gave it a good run and it did NOT help me at all with my depression unless I was high 24/7. Smoking it certainly did not help with my asthma. Even eating it didn't help with the asthma.
I cannot function as a human being high. I can't drive a car. I can't work. I can't concentrate as well. If I were high 24/7 I would be homeless and jobless too. Maybe I'd feel "good" or "numb" but I would not be functional.
I found that when coming off of a high, I crashed emotionally. It doesn't help me sleep, in fact, I don't sleep soundly at all after smoking mj. My Ambien CR works much better and I feel rested the next day.
I work with homeless youth as a psychotherapist intern. Most of our youth use marijuana. Some use it all day. Even among the ones who use it all day, who might have depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc., still have psychiatric issues and aren't emotionally stable people. They wouldn't be homeless, jobless, or have any other worries about their functioning either if marijuana is a "magic drug" that takes care of mental illness (especially mood disorders and "thought disorders").
I know people who swear by the stuff to help them sleep, reduce pain, improve appetite between chemo-therapy sessions, improve appetite due to HIV/AIDS related wasting, etc. It seems to work for them for these things, and there's plenty of research to back them up.
Many of the people who I know who use it to improve their depression seem to be depressed even when they use it regularly to me. They swear they feel better when they use it, and yet I hear them talk about being down etc.
I'm not saying that it can't work for depression or other mental illnesses. I just haven't seen people in my life who have used it for mental illnesses get truly better and more functional. It's not a formal study, it's just subjective observation, so take it for what it's worth.
I stick by my prescribed anti-depressants, sleep medication, and asthma meds, because they work for me. Marijuana didn't work for me.
Blessings to those for whom it works. As with any other drug, I'm sure the old saying, "Your mileage may vary." applies.
For what it's worth, I believe that marijuana should be legalized completely. It certainly isn't any more destructive than the legal recreational drugs (tobacco and alcohol) and it would cut down on so much crime (another ramble for another board).
Simcha
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 9:35:31
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug » linkadge, posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 21:35:24
>Schizophrenia is more than a temporary alteration of biochemical functioning.
>How do you know?
Well a temporary alteration in brain functioning is by definition a state which is only temporary. Schizophrenia is not a temporary disorder. Cocaine can make people high like a manic episode, but this is not bipolar disorder.
>There are real structural differences between >the brains of healthy people. Few cases of >schizophrenia have ever been conclusively linked >to pathological brain structure.I guess it is hard to link a substance to a disease, when the underlying cause of the disease is not understood. I'm not saying its impossable for marajuanna to cause schizophrenia, I am just saying that it is possalbe that false associations could be made. If marajuanna were shrinking the hippocampus, for instance, I would say that could be a risk factor for mood disorders. I just think there needs to be a little more proof than: "here's a bunch of people with schizophrenia, and see...they smoke pot"
>How can you tell the difference? I was using the >word stoned as a general adjective for marijuana >intoxication.
Well, a number of people believe it is possable. Just as it is possable to use stimulants theraputically for ADHD without getting high.
I took two puffs one night, and found that it helped me sleep. This was much less than I needed to get high. It didn't make me high, it just helped me sleep, killed GI problems etc.
>I have had residual effects from prescription drugs. For instance, lithium + SSRI's was very trippy. I thought the railway crossing barriers were swords of giant soldiers.
>That sounds like a 'seeing as' hallucination, or >delusion? I was alarmed to read in my dothiepin >patient information leaflet of the risk that it >could "precipitate schizophrenia". Many OTC >cough and cold remedies containing >diphenhydramine and dextromethorphan carry a >similar risk so this isn't just 'War on Drugs' >propaganda. Marijuana does trigger psychotic >episodes in some people - I think that's a >better way of describing what happens to those >unfortunate people rather than 'causing >schizophrenia'.
I think we are in agreement.
My older brother, for instance, is a walking timebomb. He shows all the symptoms of developing a mood disorder in the future. He is at high risk, both genetically, and environmentally. If he smoked marajuanna and became psychotic the untrained eye would blame it on the marajuanna, but our family knows that this would just be the straw that broke the cammmel's back, so to speak.
>Thats kinda why I encourage the medicinal use of it. At least people know then what they are getting>I agree, but even then some people have had >psychotic reactions to nabilone and medical >grade marijuana. The only drug that I have ever >had full blown hallucinations with though is >Ambien - I saw little elves dancing around a >maypole on my quilt cover.
Wow, how about that.
I guess what I am really trying to say is that I don't think that the investigation of marajuanna as a medicine should cease based on such reactions.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 9:55:31
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug, posted by Simcha on December 28, 2006, at 23:55:50
My main symptoms are, anhedonia, insomnia, loss of appetite, sensitivity to pain, etc. (I loose a deal of weight) (-20 pounds off a 130 pound frame is no good)
A leading doctor would likely prescribe something like effexor. Well effexor gave me heart palpitions and I could only sleep a few hours on it. It also made me loose MORE weight, and didn't help my depression much.
So a doctor prescribes zyprexa to combat insomnia, and thats great, but then I wake up feeling worthless, and anhedonia is terrable.
And then bla bla, more drugs to combat this side effect or that side effect, and before I know it I'm on 10 drugs and I feel worse than when I started.Certain skills I found were worsened by marajuanna, but other skills were enhanced. My language skills sucked, but my math skills were fine. Music playing was actually better too.
Some people do great on prescription AD's. I don't fall into that category.Linkadge
Posted by jimmygold70 on December 29, 2006, at 10:05:59
In reply to Re: Marijuana, the Anti-Drug, posted by linkadge on December 28, 2006, at 9:52:36
Ye, cannabis makes me terribly agitated. It's probably an interaction with one of my 6(!) psychoactive medications, as there were times when I've taken different drugs and cannabis was non-issue.
I know one high expert of addictions, probably one of the leading ones anywhere, who claims (beyond other things) that cannabis is mostly placebo!
J
> All the power to the movement.
>
> I wish my doctor would believe me about such things so I wouldn't be forced to take seroquel the next day which makes me feel like sh*t.
>
> I might gain some weight instead of loosing it.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:32:24
In reply to Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative » blueberry1, posted by Quintal on December 28, 2006, at 18:55:23
What does marijuana do mixed with various psychiatric medications? Anyone know any particulars?
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:33:46
In reply to Re: Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:32:24
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 12:50:00
In reply to Re: Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 12:32:24
Marijuana interacts badly with TCAs to cause dry mouth and tachycardia, probably because of their anticholinergic effects.
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=865
I took it with Parnate and had no problems, but impurities are obviously a concern when mixing it with MAOIs.
Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 13:15:54
In reply to Re: Spice: Legal Marijuana Alternative » laima, posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 12:50:00
Really? No problems with parnate? I had a little when I first started selegeline, and I thought I narrowly skirted a disaster.
Weird and alarming reaction-- later I thought pot might count as an opiate. Thank god I had JUST started selegeline, so it was only a 5mg dose. The experience cured me of any further "maybe I'll just smoke a little again this once" ideas.
> Marijuana interacts badly with TCAs to cause dry mouth and tachycardia, probably because of their anticholinergic effects.
>
> http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=865
>
> I took it with Parnate and had no problems, but impurities are obviously a concern when mixing it with MAOIs.
>
> Q
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 14:03:22
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 13:15:54
I was under the impression that marajuanna had some monoamine oxidase inhibiting effects.
I can't recomend combining it with other medications. I tried it with celexa, and the two made me kindof irritable.
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 14:51:21
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 13:15:54
>Really? No problems with parnate?
Yes, really - no problems with Parnate.
>I had a little when I first started selegeline, and I thought I narrowly skirted a disaster.
Perhaps you did, or maybe that weird reaction was a panic attack triggered due to heightened anxiety at the beginning of treatment? I also smoked marijuana while taking oral selegiline tablets at the 5mg dose now you mention it and had no problems. I tried selegiline again in September this year for about a week and smoked marijuana during that time. I don't remember noticing any difference in my response.
>Weird and alarming reaction-- later I thought pot might count as an opiate.
What exactly was the nature of this reaction - can you describe it? Pot does not count as an opiate unless of course your supply was contaminated with something.
>Thank god I had JUST started selegeline, so it was only a 5mg dose. The experience cured me of any further "maybe I'll just smoke a little again this once" ideas.
I'd be happy to smoke marijuana with any MAOI - unless it had strong anticholinergic effects - after my positive experiences with Parnate and selegiline. Again, I can only suggest you suffered a panic attack unless you experienced hallucinations or something of that nature? It's also possible your source was contaminated with other substances that interact with MAOIs. You are wise to lay off the pot if that is your reaction to it though.
Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 15:43:19
In reply to Re: Marijuana » laima, posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 14:51:21
Seriously, I tried to look up online if there were any warnings about combining pot with selegeline, but came up with nothing. I wasn't exactly an inexperienced smoker either, I'm afraid. And this reaction was the one and only I ever had like it- and I seemed to be the only person to get the reaction. Basically extreme headache (like a vice around temples), hard to breathe, heart rate all over the place, and paranoia over what was going on. (And pretty stoned on top of it.) This lasted a good 8-10 hours at least. So perhaps a seratonin crisis? That's my best guess. I can't imagine how this combination could have caused a hypertensive crisis. I even remember asking someone if they didn't think there was speed in this pot, but they didn't think so at all. I'm not definately so sure, though. Maybe PCP in there? I've been suspicious that the pot in my part of the country (middle of USA) isn't quite so pure as what was going around when I lived on the West Coast. It's not the same.
I used to smoke a lot when I used prozac, no bad reactions, no anxiety with it, ever.
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:04:41
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 15:43:19
It could have been dopaminergic overload. Selegeline may have been potentiating THC like it can potentiate nicotine etc.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:06:03
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 14:03:22
> I was under the impression that marajuanna had some monoamine oxidase inhibiting effects.
How much so? Subtle, I imagine. Not enough to propogate any rumours about avoiding pizza while smoking.
Posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 16:18:05
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 15:43:19
Sounds more like a mild hypertensive crisis, but I don't see how marijuana alone could do that - it's much more likely that your source was contaminated. I actually asked my own supplier if the pot he gave me contained speed after I had a headache starting a new batch, but I sometimes have that reaction to marijuana anyway and my blood pressure was normal when I tested it (I have a self-inflating cuff at home).
It does seem likely that your pot was contaminated - it's not a risk with pure marijuana but contamination is an inherent risk with street drugs. I guess the moral of the story is not to smoke pot while on an MAOI unless you've grown it yourself or seen it harvested.
Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:39:28
In reply to Re: Marijuana and MAOIs » laima, posted by Quintal on December 29, 2006, at 16:18:05
You think it sounds more like hypertensive crisis? Maybe...it just doesn't make much sense, especially since that was such a small amount of selegeline. But I think it's likely true, that pot was adulterated with something. Especially since you report no problems mixing either selegeline or parnate with it. Very interesting.> Sounds more like a mild hypertensive crisis, but I don't see how marijuana alone could do that - it's much more likely that your source was contaminated. I actually asked my own supplier if the pot he gave me contained speed after I had a headache starting a new batch, but I sometimes have that reaction to marijuana anyway and my blood pressure was normal when I tested it (I have a self-inflating cuff at home).
>
> It does seem likely that your pot was contaminated - it's not a risk with pure marijuana but contamination is an inherent risk with street drugs. I guess the moral of the story is not to smoke pot while on an MAOI unless you've grown it yourself or seen it harvested.
>
> Q
Posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:43:38
In reply to Re: Marijuana, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:04:41
What is a dopaminergic overload? Is it a dopamine crisis (as opposed to seratonin crisis)? Yes, I get the impression that selegeline can exasperate the effects of other substances. Whatever happened, I'm not eager to repeat the experiment in order to find out.
> It could have been dopaminergic overload. Selegeline may have been potentiating THC like it can potentiate nicotine etc.
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:51:50
In reply to Re: Marijuana » linkadge, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:06:03
I don't know, I guess it also depends on the nature of the inhibition. For instance, regular coffee drinkers actually show reduced monoamine oxidase function ~50%, on account of the beta carboline content of coffee, but need not worry about dietary restrictions.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2006, at 16:57:36
In reply to Re: Marijuana » linkadge, posted by laima on December 29, 2006, at 16:43:38
I don't think its a mediacal term....dopamine overload :) More that selegeline will prolong the biological activity of dopamine in the brain, so drugs like marajuanna which release dopamine in certain areas would be potentiated by selegeline.
Just like how selegiline can enhance the activity of l-dopa, and perhaps accordingly enhance the risk of psychological side effects.
I had a worse experience with marajuanna and zoloft, than with marajuanna and celexa. Zoloft is a mild dopamine reuptake inhibitor, wherase celexa is more selective. That may have been a factor.
Linkadge
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.