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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 75. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:14:01
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 12:58:46
> >Yes, I wish he wouldn't. I suppose he
> >believes in democracy. But I don't -- not
> >in medicine
>
>
> Where do you think a lot of these drugs came from?
>Plants, herbs, fungii, animal poisons, enzymes, viruses, or synthetic derivatives from them, etc.
> So, the people who discovered the painkilling properties of chewing on the tree bark that eventually became asprin were a bunch of quacks?
> And the psychatrists at Harvard who discovered the mood stabilizing properties of omega-3, are just a bunch of quacks too?
>
> So, I found omega-3 was a better choice for me for mood than lithium. I'm doing better in school, I feel better, sleeping better. So whats wrong with that? Is that all in my head? I really don't care...."go with it till it stops working for ya".Many plants and poisons in nature are therapeutic for illnesses. What medicine does is bring them into the mainstream by testing them and making them safe and appropriate for individual cases. That's why the FDA and other agencies exist. It eliminates risk and regulates crime in the trade of these substances.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:17:35
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:03:12
> Lithium wasn't always a drug you know.
>
> But then again, I suppose the people who travelled hundreds of miles to drink of the famous healig lithium containing water springs, were probably, at the time, considered a bunch of quacks too.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>Considering the geographical location where
lithium is mostly found, I would say no, not
quacks... maybe philosophers. :-)Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:18:44
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:14:01
>What medicine does is bring them into the >mainstream by testing them and making them safe >and appropriate for individual cases. That's why >the FDA and other agencies exist. It eliminates >risk and regulates crime in the trade of these >substances.
The FDA does not make drugs safe. It just works to quantify the dammage that they can cause.
And it also works to denounce the theraputic value of anything that cannot be patented.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:22:06
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:17:35
>I would say no, not
>quacks... maybe philosophers.Bingo. They were on to something.
How about this. You take lithium, and I'll take my vitamins and herbs, and lets see who has a better treatment outcome?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:23:50
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:22:06
And what of the high rate of suicide among psychiatrists ?
If anyone should have hope, or be encouraged by the miraculous healing powers of modern psychiatric medicine, it should be the psychatrists.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:32:37
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:18:44
> >What medicine does is bring them into the >mainstream by testing them and making them safe >and appropriate for individual cases. That's why >the FDA and other agencies exist. It eliminates >risk and regulates crime in the trade of these >substances.
>
> The FDA does not make drugs safe. It just works to quantify the dammage that they can cause.
> And it also works to denounce the theraputic value of anything that cannot be patented.And what reason does the man-on-the-street have
to trust "natural" substances sold in health food stores, and not the FDA? Are you proposing that I should enter into a political fight because you have found evidence of FDA corruption but not
in the health food arena? Can you prove what you are saying; can you provide legal recourse for bodily harm, in case you are wrong?Squiggles
Posted by SLS on December 3, 2006, at 13:33:01
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:22:06
> How about this. You take lithium, and I'll take my vitamins and herbs, and lets see who has a better treatment outcome?
Let's not do that to each other.
- Scott
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:45:04
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:22:06
> >I would say no, not
> >quacks... maybe philosophers.
>
> Bingo. They were on to something.
>
> How about this. You take lithium, and I'll take my vitamins and herbs, and lets see who has a better treatment outcome?
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>Are you bipolar?
Squiggles
>
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:47:27
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 13:23:50
> And what of the high rate of suicide among psychiatrists ?
>
> If anyone should have hope, or be encouraged by the miraculous healing powers of modern psychiatric medicine, it should be the psychatrists.
>
> LinkadgeI think that's irrelevant. Anyone under
sustained stress can crack; doctors also
have access to the right stuff, and know
the lethal dose.Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 13:56:26
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irrational, posted by Klavot on December 3, 2006, at 12:43:53
>If you think psychiatry is quackery, then just don't use it.
I'll continue to use all resources available to me if I think they may help Kalvot, but now I've tried most of the modern psychoactive medicines available with little success and had similar results with alternative medicines the popular idea that psychiatry is superior in every way to other forms of treatment/healing is wearing thin for me.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 13:59:33
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:47:05
>Yes, I wish he wouldn't. I suppose he
>believes in democracy. But I don't -- not
>in medicine.
>
>SquigglesAh, I see. So this is about forcing your own opinion on the rest of the group?
Q
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:12:56
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:32:37
>And what reason does the man-on-the-street have
>to trust "natural" substances sold in health >food stores, and not the FDA? Are you proposing >that I should enter into a political fight >because you have found evidence of FDA >corruption but not
>in the health food arena? Can you prove what >you are saying; can you provide legal recourse >for bodily harm, in case you are wrong?If the FDA believed that a particular health food product was of significant health risk, it would be taken off the market.
A number of health food products have been used for a lot longer than the drugs we have on the market today. I would say that time is a greater indicator of safety than the amount of money behind any one clinical trial.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:14:17
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 13:45:04
>How about this. You take lithium, and I'll take >my vitamins and herbs, and lets see who has a >better treatment outcome?
It was a joke, sorry I should have been explicit.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 14:17:04
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:12:56
...
> If the FDA believed that a particular health food product was of significant health risk, it would be taken off the market....
Why would Big Brother (FDA) be interested in the safety of health food products? Do you think they're in on the take?
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 14:19:46
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:14:17
> >How about this. You take lithium, and I'll take >my vitamins and herbs, and lets see who has a >better treatment outcome?
>
> It was a joke, sorry I should have been explicit.
>
> LinkadgeActually, I would do it, if I hadn't the
experiences i have had without my current
meds. It *is* an invitation to join the great
majority, though I know you were kidding.Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 14:22:47
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » Quintal, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 12:17:34
>The treatment of mental illness is
>demanding and chronic. If I had my
>way I would apply Dr. Fuller Torrey's
>ideas of insitutions. However, we now
>have so many people and so many with
>depression, that it may end up being
>worse.Dr. Fuller Torrey's ideas don't apply to my own problems as far as I'm aware. I have not been diagnosed with a psychotic disorder. I wonder, if you're such a strong advocate Squiggles, why you're not incarcerated in an institution yourself?
>Not all doctors fit your characterization though. You might try looking for someone else.
I did not suggest any such thing! I made real progress when I was working with my first psychiatrist - a wise and gentle Bulgarian man. He respected my choices so long as I gave clear and valid reasons for them and worked with me within my own parameters. This all fell apart when he suffered a breakdown himself and a string of locum pdocs have been running the local NHS mental health team ever since.
I'm not able to afford private treatment so I have to use whatever the NHS supplies for now.
Q
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:31:12
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 14:19:46
Not all studies favor drugs you know. A number of studies have found for instance, that SJW is actually superior to conventional antidepressants, both in terms of side effects and in terms of theraputic effect.
What I think is irrational, is how a study funded by Pfizer, can state that SJW is not effective, when infact that comparitor drugs Zoloft performs worse.
The study even dared to say something allong the lines, of.... "Patients with depression should not us SJW, intead they should talk to their doctor about approved treatment options."
(approved....what like zoloft???)
It has been my experience that SJW is generally a more effective antidperessant. Although, proponents of alterantive medicine are made to feel like freaks, because a lot of the true data like this is supressed.Ok, so its not sythetic. But it works for me, and I have had far fewer serious adverse effects related to its use.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:36:06
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 14:22:47
Modern science has been able to validate many of the claims made about alternative medicines.
For instance, there have been a number of studies showing that the addtition of vitamin C, to conventional antipsychotic treatment results in a favorable outcome.
So is this the advice of a "vitamin pusher"? In the end, I really don't care. It might help me get better faster.
I think it would be naive to close doors like this. Afterall, its an opportunity to get better.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:37:50
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:36:06
I can say that the "sickest" I've ever been, has been the result of modern medicine.
I've never been as suicidal as when modern medicine had me drugged up on like 7 different psychiatric medicines. I started to get better by comming *off* the drugs.
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 14:38:32
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 14:22:47
> >The treatment of mental illness is
> >demanding and chronic. If I had my
> >way I would apply Dr. Fuller Torrey's
> >ideas of insitutions. However, we now
> >have so many people and so many with
> >depression, that it may end up being
> >worse.
>
> Dr. Fuller Torrey's ideas don't apply to my own problems as far as I'm aware. I have not been diagnosed with a psychotic disorder. I wonder, if you're such a strong advocate Squiggles, why you're not incarcerated in an institution yourself?Advocacy of Torrey's views is not a qualification
for incarceration. And when I speak of Torrey's
views, I am not referring to locking up depressives or bipolars and using a whip -- i am referring to open clinics that all people with private or domestic or psychological problems can go to for medical help, instead of church basements and minimum care.I would say you are rather impolite with me and presumptuous about my values.
Squiggles
Posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 15:08:48
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » Quintal, posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 14:38:32
>I would say you are rather impolite with me and presumptuous about my values.
Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!
Well, what's good enough for the goose...........
>Advocacy of Torrey's views is not a qualification
>for incarceration. And when I speak of Torrey's
>views, I am not referring to locking up depressives or bipolars and using a whip -- i am referring to open clinics that all people with private or domestic or psychological problems can go to for >medical help, instead of church basements and minimum care.Many of us already have or are aiming for this in conventional psychiatric care, psychological services and counselling of outpatients as far as I'm aware. It's not unique to Dr. Torrey's view. I can't help be think you quote such a controversial figure to provoke, which I like up to a point. It sharpens us up.
I do agree with involuntary incarceration under certain circumstances. I have a friend who has Paranoid Schizophrenia and seeing her psychotic attack a shop keeper who was painting a sign saying "Weigh No More" onto the front of his health food store (she was going through a period of anorexia and assumed he was trying to torment her) was enough to persuade me that hospitalisation of people who are actively psychotic is valid.
Q
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 15:16:00
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio » Squiggles, posted by Quintal on December 3, 2006, at 15:08:48
> >I would say you are rather impolite with me and presumptuous about my values.
>
> Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!.............
> Many of us already have or are aiming for this in conventional psychiatric care, psychological services and counselling of outpatients as far as I'm aware. It's not unique to Dr. Torrey's view.Well, as long as it's not unique to Dr. Torrey's view. What's good for the goose, as you say.
Squiggles
Posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 15:27:40
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:31:12
This is a tricky subject. I think I fall on both sides of the fence. I do believe some people do much better with their own judgement, even in the worst of despair, while other people need some guidance. It depends from case to case. I don't think there is any right answer for everyone.
Personally I think the best of both worlds exists right here at psychobabble.
Posted by Klavot on December 3, 2006, at 15:37:06
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by linkadge on December 3, 2006, at 14:31:12
> Not all studies favor drugs you know. A number of studies have found for instance, that SJW is actually superior to conventional antidepressants, both in terms of side effects and in terms of theraputic effect.
>Could you please cite some of these studies? I would be interested to read them for myself.
Tx, Klavot
Posted by Squiggles on December 3, 2006, at 15:38:21
In reply to Re: Illness increases vulnerability to the irratio, posted by blueberry on December 3, 2006, at 15:27:40
> This is a tricky subject. I think I fall on both sides of the fence. I do believe some people do much better with their own judgement, even in the worst of despair, while other people need some guidance. It depends from case to case. I don't think there is any right answer for everyone.
>
> Personally I think the best of both worlds exists right here at psychobabble.
>
That's a considerate post Blueberry.
Psychobabble is unique in exchaning
information and asking about meds, when
you are well enough to do so.In cases of crisis people may need more. And
when I mention Torrey, I do not do so to
provoke but to point out that psychiatric
care is deteriorating in proportion to the
growing number of people with depression,
the lack of an adequate number of physicians,
the complexity of drug care, and the fall out
of all that-- mentally ill people on the
streets, in jails, in abandoned shelters,
and without recourse to internet help.Squiggles
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